Asrama in dharmasutras and manu smrti

Sutras and sAstras

Sutras are short expositions of a basic truth. Each sutra connects to the previous and following thereby forming a chain of truths. Sutras are used to explain procedures of Vedic rituals, procedures of domestic family rites and the procedures of a complete society.

The Srautasutras deal with conduct of Vedic rituals. The Grhyasutras deal with domestic family. The Dharmasutras talk about the all encompassing dharma of a society and its procedures. Dharmasutras offer a great insight into how the Asramas were viewed in their periods.

Over a period, the sutra style of rendition of laws gave way to ‘sloka’ style of rendition. The legal renditions in this style are called the dharma sAstras or smrti. A well known smrti is manu smrti. Manu Smrti gives us information how societal laws and how Asramas were viewed in its period.

The four Asramas

Zrama means ‘toil’, ‘fatigue’ etc.. azrama means ‘not toiling’, ‘not fatigued’. Azrama is a way to live without getting fatigued, an ease of way of living. From that it is translated as a place of living (place that makes it easy to live), a hermitage, a stage of life.

There are four Asramas talked about in various scriptures. They are Brahmacharya, Grhasta, vanaprastha and saMnyAsa.

Asramas in Guatama dharma Sutra

Translated verses

Gautama dharma sutra declares starting in 3.1

1. He has a choice, some assert, among the orders of ife
2. student, householder, mendicant, or anchorite
3. The householder is their source, because the others do not produce offspring

Further Gautama dharma sutra declares in 3.36

36 There is, however, only a single order of life,* the Teachers maintain, because the householder’s state alone is prescribed in express vedic texts.

Explanation

Gautama dharma sutra says that some people claim there is a choice for the Asramas and they can choose any order of life they want. But householder is their source and others do not produce offspring.

Gautama dharma sutra brings in producing offspring as the key function of Grhastha and hence declares that there is NO choice for human beings but to follow the stages of succession.

It further declares that though there are ‘four’ orders actually they are one. The one is householder’s state and that alone is explicitly understood from the Vedic texts according to Guatama Dharma Sutra.

The position that the householder’s life is the only legitimate order for adults is expressed also in Boudhyayana Dharma Sutra 2.11.27. The idea here is not issue a blanket prohibition of other orders, but to forbid any order than a householders for a student who completed Vedic Studies.

Asramas in Baudhyayana Dharma Sutra

Translated verses

Baudhayana dharma sutra states in 2.11.9

9. Now, some do indeed posit a fourfold division of this Law. In the absence of a vedic text to support their position, however, the text ‘Four paths . . .’ must refer to rites,
10. Namely, Is.t.i sacrifices, animal sacrifices, Soma sacrifices, and ghee offering––*
11 a division enunciated in this verse: Four paths leading to the gods traverse between
heaven and earth. Among these, all you gods, place us on that which brings unfailing prosperity.
(TS 5.7.2.3)
12 That division consists of the student, the householder, the forest hermit, and the wandering ascetic.

Meaning

The Sutra says there are NO four divisions in that, one can choose any of the four. The four paths mentioned are the four sacrifices and not four independent paths that one can take.

Translated Verses

It further makes it in clear in 27

27 There is, however, only a single order of life (same as in Gautama Dharma Sutra 3.36), the teachers maintain, because no offspring is produced in the others.

28 With respect to the above position they cite this: ‘There was once a demon named Kapila, the son of Prahla¯da.* It was he who created these divisions in his campaign against the gods. No wise man should pay any heed to them.’

29 In the absence of a vedic text to support their position, the text ‘Four paths . . .’ must refer to rites, namely, Is.t.i sacrifices, animal sacrifices, Soma sacrifices, and ghee offering.

30 Now, this verse is cited in support of their position: “This is the eternal greatness of a Brahmin––he is not made greater or smaller by actions. It is his trail that the self knows; and knowing him, he is no longer stained by sinful actions. (TB 3.12.7–8; cf. B 2.17.7–8)

31 One should respond: A man who knows not the Veda does not at the moment of his death think of that great all perceiving self, by whose power the sun, ablaze with splendour, gives warmth and a father comes to have a father through his son in birth after birth. (TB 3.12.7)

32 These men who rove neither near nor afar, who are neither Brahmins nor pressers of
Soma––they master speech and with evil speech spin their thread without understanding,
like a spinster. (RV 10.71.9)

33 There are innumerable texts that refer to the debts that people incur, such as: ‘Through offspring, O Fire, may we obtain immortality’ (RV 5.4.10; TS 1.4.46.1); and ‘At his very birth, a
Brahmin is born with a triple debt––of studentship to the seers, of sacrifice to the gods, and of offspring to the ancestors’ (TS 6.3.10.5).

34 Study of the triple Veda, studentship, procreation, faith, austerity, sacrifice, giving gifts––those who perform these dwell with us. Anyone who praises other things becomes dust
and perishes.

Meaning

There is only one order of life though there are four orders. Householder is the order in reality as it only produces offsprings and support others.

People who claim that there are four orders (that we can adopt any order) are demons (kapila, son of prahlAda) who fight against the gods according to this Sutra.

Yes people often claim ‘four paths’ mentioned in Rg Veda refers to four independent orders. But it is not. It refers to four sacrifices.

Some people also quote the vedic verse that says brAhmana is not made greater or smaller by actions and claim that a brAhman can go to any stage. But we quote them the Rg Vedic texts which proclaim that a brAhman has three debts at birth and one of it is to ancestors to produce offsprings. One who does not do it, does not fullfill the debt.

Only a man who knows the Veda fulfills all the debts and at the time of death realizes the Self.

Translated verses

Baudhayana dharma sutra states in 2.17

1. Next, we will explain the procedure of renunciation.*
2. Some say: ‘From that very state, remaining chaste, he goes forth’
3. Alternatively, it is meant for S´a¯lı¯nas and Ya¯ya¯varas who are childless.
4. Or else, a widower may undertake it, or someone who has settled his children in their respective duties.
5. Some prescribe renunciation for people over 70
6. or for a forest hermit who has retired from ritual activities

Meaning

According to Baudhayana, people who renunciate are those who are widowers, childless, who has settled children in their duties, people of age above 70 or who are in Vanaprastha (who no longer perform the rituals as in Grhastasrama).

Asramas in Vasishta Dharma Sutra

Translated Verses

Vasishta Dharma Sutra says in 7.1

1. There are four orders of life:
2. student, householder, forest hermit, and wandering ascetic
3. After studying one, two, or all the Vedas, a man who has not violated his vow of chastity

may live in whichever of these he prefers

Meaning

Vasishta Dharma Sutra refers to Manu Smrti. Hence it should be later to Manu Smrti. Manu Smrti in itself says all the Asramas should progress one by one. But the later day Vasishta Dharma Sutra says that a student can go to any of the other three orders, if the student has maintained the vow of Chastity.

But Vasishta Dharma Sutra also says grhasta is the best of all the orders. In 8.14 it says

14 A householder alone offers sacrifices; a householder performs austerities. Of all the four orders, the householder is the best.

15 As all rivers and rivulets ultimately end up in the ocean, so people of all the orders ultimately end up in the householder. (This is same as in the Manu Smrti)

16 As all living beings live dependent on their mothers, so all mendicants live dependent on
the householder.

Meaning

While Vasishta Dharma Sutra claims Grhastha is the best of the order, source of all other orders, it does not, like the Baudhayana or Gautama Sutra, say that the orders have to be in sequence. It allows a student to move to other orders.

Asramas in Apastamba Sutra

Translated Verses

Apastamba sutra states this in 2.21.1

1 There are four orders of life: the householder’s life, living at the teacher’s house, the life of a sage, and that of a forest hermit.
2 If a man remains steadfast in any of these, he attains bliss.
3 A common prerequisite for all is to live at the teacher’s house following one’s initiation
4 and all are required not to abandon vedic learning.
5 After he has learnt the rites, he may undertake the order that he prefers

Meaning

The rites mentioned here are the householder’s rites. After been a Grhastha according to this sutra, one can be a sage (saMnyAs) or a forest hermit (vani).

Translated Verses

Further it states in 2.23.3
3 (view of opponents) Now they quote a couple of verses from a Purana
4 “The eighty thousand seers who desired offspring went along the sun’s southern course. They obtained cremation grounds”
5 The eighty thousand seers who did not desire offspring went along the sun’s northern course. They, indeed, attained immortality.
6 Such is the praise of those who live celibate lives.
7 And further, these are men who make whatever they want happen by their mere thought,
8 for example, producing rain, bestowing children, seeing what is far away, moving as quickly as thought, and others of this sort.
9 Therefore, on the basis of vedic testimony and visible results, some claim that these orders of life are superior.
10 [author’s view] It is the firm view of the most eminent scholars of the triple Veda, however, that the Vedas are the ultimate authority. The rites using rice, barley, animals, ghee, milk, and potsherds and involving the participation of the wife that are prescribed in the Vedas must be performed with the loud and soft recitation of ritual formulas, they hold, and any practice opposed to those rites is devoid of authority.
11 With regard to the statement about ‘cremation grounds’, on the other hand, that passage enjoins the funerary rites at the death of those who have performed many sacrifices.
12 Thereafter, the Vedas declare, they obtain an eternal reward designated by the term ‘heaven’.

Meaning

Some people claim celibate lives are superior. The celibate lives are Brahmacarya, Vani and saMnyasi. But Apastamba says Veda are the ultimate authority and based on the three vedas, the household of Grhasta is superior and all other practices of other orders are devoid of any authority.

In fact grhasta who produce offsprings enjoy the funerary rites and they obtain an eternal reward.

Translated Verses

24 1 The scriptures declare, moreover, that immortality consists of offspring: ‘In your offspring you are born again. That, O mortal, is your immortality’ (TB 1.5.5.6).
2 Furthermore, we can see with our very eyes that the son is a distinct clone of the father himself. One can even see that they are identical, only the bodies are distinct.
3 And the sons, as they continue to perform the prescribed rites, increase the fame and
heavenly life of their departed ancestors.
4 Each subsequent generation does the same for those that preceded it.
5 They dwell in heaven until the dissolution of creation.
6 ‘At the new creation, they serve as the seed’, says the Bhavisya Purana.
7 And there is also the declaration of Prajapati:
8 Study of the triple Veda, studentship, procreation, faith, austerity, sacrifice, giving gifts––those who perform these dwell with us. Anyone who praises other things becomes dust
and perishes.

Meaning

By offspring we are born again and the rites continue to be performed and the heavens continue to be rewarded. Prajapati deems that study of the three vedas, studentship (brahmacarya, learning), procreation, faith austerity, sacrifice, giving gifts (grhasta) - those who perform these dwell with us.

This means only grhasta reaches the heaven. Anyone who praises other things becomes dust and perishes.

Asramas in Manu Smrti

Translated verses

Manu Smrti declares this starting in VI.87

“The student, the householder, the hermit and the ascetic, these four separate orders, which all spring from householders
“But all these orders assumed successively in accordance with the institutes, lead the brAhmana who acts by the preceding to the highest state”
“And in accordance with the precepts of Veda and Smrti, the householder is declared superior to all of them, for he supports the other three”
“As all rivers great and small find a resting place in ocean, even so men of all orders find protection with householders”

Meaning

Manu Smrti declares all the four orders have be to be assumed successively in accordance with the established laws and the brAhmana goes from preceding to the next higher state.

Which is the superior of all the Asrama..? It is Grhastha. Why.? Because brahmacarya, vanaprastha and saMnyAsa get protection from the Grhasta. Grhasta gives refuge to other three orders and hence supreme. In fact for this reason only every brAhamana must go through these stages successively.

Manu Smrti, all through declares these four stages to be in sequence of each other and declares the grhasta stage as the Supreme stage of life.

Summary

As could be seen, most of the dharma sutras prescribe and laud grhasta stage of Asrama. They also explicitly prohibit skipping it or some prohibit skipping the order. Only Vasistha dharma sutra allows going to any order, but again speaks highly of grhastha, calling it the source of all the orders. Baudhayana prohibits it totally and specifies exemptions. Manu Smrti and Apastamba completely prohibit skipping grhastasrama.

PS:

When the dharma sutras are so loud and clear, prohibiting saMnyAsa or Vani from brahmacarya, my view is that a ritual like kAsi yAtra could not be indicating going to saMnyAsa, as these dharma sutras should have been taught in the brahmacarya (in those days). Hence kAsi yAtra evolved more as a ritual identifying most learnt student out to go to kAsi for much higher learning.

-TBT

Dear TBT ...

You wrote:

the absence of a vedic text to support their position, the text ‘Four paths . . .’ must refer to rites, namely, Is.t.i sacrifices, animal sacrifices, Soma sacrifices, and ghee offering



I would like to clear this nagging doubt in me..by animal sacrfice does it mean the animal is killed for a yagna?

Can you kindly shed some light on this cos Swami Dayanand Saraswati of Arya Samaj said no animal gets killed but its a different meaning in Vedic Sanskrit but elsewhere I have read that animal sacrifice for Yagna did take place and it was stopped by Lord Buddha.

Any idea?

renuka said:

but elsewhere I have read that animal sacrifice for Yagna did take place and it was stopped by Lord Buddha.

Any idea?

Click to expand...

That it was stopped by Buddha is a total myth and has been busted by most scholars, both indic and western.

In fact Buddha died due to consumption of poisoned meat intentional or incidental.

The evolution of Hindu thought about cruelty to animals and their moving away from the concept of hell (where the sacrificed
animals supposedly got their revenge on the vedic aryans) and the development of karma theory can be seen in AranyakAs and
upaniSads.

zebra16 said:

That it was stopped by Buddha is a total myth and has been busted by most scholars, both indic and western.

In fact Buddha died due to consumption of poisoned meat intentional or incidental.

The evolution of Hindu thought about cruelty to animals and their moving away from the concept of hell (where the sacrificed
animals supposedly got their revenge on the vedic aryans) and the development of karma theory can be seen in AranyakAs and
upaniSads.

Click to expand...

Thanks Zebra ji....so.that means that animal sacrifice was indeed there...that goes to show everything is man written..evolution of thought..just like how any early tribal civilization would always think of sacrificing animals to appease " the gods".

So that way why is Vedas over rated when this is just a normal process of evolution of thought of humans.

Btw the story goes Lord Buddha died becos of eating poisoned mushrooms..some say poisoned meat.

Adi Shankara too had eaten meat in one episode that made his student angry..following which Adi Shankara ate molten nails to show that he sees no difference in any substance.

renuka said:

Thanks Zebra ji....so.that means that animal sacrifice was indeed there...that goes to show everything is man written..evolution of thought..just like how any early tribal civilization would always think of sacrificing animals to appease " the gods".

Click to expand...

Of course animal sacrifices were there. To evolve one has to be truthful to know where one stands and how he arrived there. To whitewash the past deeds of our ancestors and to give fanciful and creative interpretations will be self defeating.

An average Hindu today will not know the difference between a Homam (called havan in North India) and yagnam (known as yajnA in North India) though both are agni kAryams. The two fundamental differences are homam is performed sitting while yAgnam was performed standing upright and a homam does not need a "yUpA" whereas a yagnam needs it. The "yUpA" stambha is the fence or a piece of wood embedded to the earth to which the sacrificial animal was tied.

The brAhmaNam of Sukla yajurvedA (shathapAtha brAhmaNam) in fact gives the comprehensive list of animals brought for sacrifice in aSwamedhA.

You can also note that people in modern times erect a "stambhA" to the people who sacrificed themselves or became a martyr to a greater cause or for betterment of a community. It is my belief that the "stambhA" concept had its origins in "yUpA stambhA"

So that way why is Vedas over rated when this is just a normal process of evolution of thought of humans.

Click to expand...

I would definitely not call vedAs over-rated. It contains a lot of precious and useful stuff and gives a blue print of how Hindu thought evolved over time. But the useful stuff is so scattered among the mundane and vEdAs are so vast that it would be like searching for needle in a haystack. It is impossible to study in detail unless one's life requirements are taken care of and no one is providing such a facility.

Btw the story goes Lord Buddha died becos of eating poisoned mushrooms..some say poisoned meat.

Click to expand...

The story of Buddha dying because of consumption of poisoned mushrooms is Buddhist attempt to whitewash their history.
I do not think mushrooms was known in Indian subcontinent then, but I am not sure. It will be interesting to find out when
mushrooms became considered to be an edible stuff. Even today many conservatives do not touch mushroom.

Adi Shankara too had eaten meat in one episode that made his student angry..following which Adi Shankara ate molten nails to show that he sees no difference in any substance.

Click to expand...

I do not know about this story and if you can give some references it will be helpful. What I have read or learnt is that someone took
askance to some big Hindu stalwart (not sure it was Adi Sankara) in partaking of sOmA and to silence him that personality drank molten iron or nails or whatever.

Herein also lies another attempt to whitewash a bit of history. Though both sOmA and surA were intoxicants (supposedly) exemption was granted to sOmA consumption (and made it ok on special days like yagnA etc) surAbAnam came to be looked down to and over a period of time became a taboo. The increased scarcity of sOmA became the reason for distillation of surA is what I would think to be the attributed cause.

By evolutionary nature people started to give up surA and it (to be free of any intoxicant consumption) became a virtue in the subsequent texts.

Of course animal sacrifices were there. To evolve one has to be truthful to know where one stands and how he arrived there. To whitewash the past deeds of our ancestors and to give fanciful and creative interpretations will be self defeating(#5)

It is no natural or philosophical evolution - but a well thought of strategy!

Read what Ambedkar wrote on why Brahmins started worshipping the cow and gave up eating beef
It was a strategy, wrote the father of Indian Constitution, to vanquish Buddhism.

Brahmins who once had no compunctions against slaughter of animals, including cows, and were the greatest beef-eaters themselves, not only gave up beef-eating but also started worshipping the cow as a deliberate strategy.


https://scroll.in/article/812645/re...d-worshipping-the-cow-and-gave-up-eating-beef

zebra16 said:

Of course animal sacrifices were there. To evolve one has to be truthful to know where one stands and how he arrived there. To whitewash the past deeds of our ancestors and to give fanciful and creative interpretations will be self defeating.

An average Hindu today will not know the difference between a Homam (called havan in North India) and yagnam (known as yajnA in North India) though both are agni kAryams. The two fundamental differences are homam is performed sitting while yAgnam was performed standing upright and a homam does not need a "yUpA" whereas a yagnam needs it. The "yUpA" stambha is the fence or a piece of wood embedded to the earth to which the sacrificial animal was tied.

The brAhmaNam of Sukla yajurvedA (shathapAtha brAhmaNam) in fact gives the comprehensive list of animals brought for sacrifice in aSwamedhA.

You can also note that people in modern times erect a "stambhA" to the people who sacrificed themselves or became a martyr to a greater cause or for betterment of a community. It is my belief that the "stambhA" concept had its origins in "yUpA stambhA"




I would definitely not call vedAs over-rated. It contains a lot of precious and useful stuff and gives a blue print of how Hindu thought evolved over time. But the useful stuff is so scattered among the mundane and vEdAs are so vast that it would be like searching for needle in a haystack. It is impossible to study in detail unless one's life requirements are taken care of and no one is providing such a facility.



The story of Buddha dying because of consumption of poisoned mushrooms is Buddhist attempt to whitewash their history.
I do not think mushrooms was known in Indian subcontinent then, but I am not sure. It will be interesting to find out when
mushrooms became considered to be an edible stuff. Even today many conservatives do not touch mushroom.



I do not know about this story and if you can give some references it will be helpful. What I have read or learnt is that someone took
askance to some big Hindu stalwart (not sure it was Adi Sankara) in partaking of sOmA and to silence him that personality drank molten iron or nails or whatever.

Herein also lies another attempt to whitewash a bit of history. Though both sOmA and surA were intoxicants (supposedly) exemption was granted to sOmA consumption (and made it ok on special days like yagnA etc) surAbAnam came to be looked down to and over a period of time became a taboo. The increased scarcity of sOmA became the reason for distillation of surA is what I would think to be the attributed cause.

By evolutionary nature people started to give up surA and it (to be free of any intoxicant consumption) became a virtue in the subsequent texts.

Click to expand...

I read in Shankaradigvijaya about the Shankara eating meat and molten nails episode.

Thanks for explanation of everything.

At the end of the day one cant help feel a bit
" cheated" that there is nothing really divine at all.

Everything is just the neuronal.activity of someone or the other and even Karma theory could be evolving in future and some new theory might mushroom( btw I love mushrooms..best ones come from china and japan..its a fungi actually..so its not an animal and not fully a plant either.

Coming back to main story..that means part of Vedas is primitive too and we can surely just look.at it as history but not as anything holy...i guess Ahimsa was never Paramodharma.

So as Hindus one should not get too worked about Eid Ul Adha bovine sacrifice cos that too is a Yagna with sacrificial animal only thing no fire...so Abrahamic religions are early stage " Vedic" school of.thought and may be in a matter of time they too would reach an Upanishadic stage of understanding.

"Brahmins ..... once had no compunctions against slaughter of animals, including cows, and were the greatest beef-eaters themselves."

Lies, repeated ad infinitum, do not become the truth.

Veteran Member Janaki Jambunathan once quoted pitamaha Bhishma, first reciter of the Vishnu sahasra-naamam, as saying in the Mahaa-Bhaaratham that Brahmins consume beef. When queried she revealed that it was really Manu who originally said so and that Bhishma was only quoting Manu.

To nail what I suspected was a lie, as I had studied Manu smrithi, I challenged Janaki Jambunathan to disclose where and when Manu said so.

Significantly, she has not been able to do so todate.

The lie stays a lie.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

renuka said:

Dear TBT ...

You wrote:

the absence of a vedic text to support their position, the text ‘Four paths . . .’ must refer to rites, namely, Is.t.i sacrifices, animal sacrifices, Soma sacrifices, and ghee offering



I would like to clear this nagging doubt in me..by animal sacrfice does it mean the animal is killed for a yagna?

Can you kindly shed some light on this cos Swami Dayanand Saraswati of Arya Samaj said no animal gets killed but its a different meaning in Vedic Sanskrit but elsewhere I have read that animal sacrifice for Yagna did take place and it was stopped by Lord Buddha.

Any idea?

Click to expand...

Yajna is an act of sacrifice. Agni is the usable energy that can be shared, transferred etc.

Giving matter/materials to Agni is Yajna. This Universe is a Yajna, act of sacrifice.

In the Yajna of the Universe, matter is offered to Agni (usable energy), resulting in evolution of more complex and intelligent forms of matter and beings. Thus Universe is a system of sacrifice where lower order beings become the energy source (agni) of higher order beings. Vedas talk about this Universe's Yajna, which is cosmic science.

The human Yajnas are modeled after the Universe's Yajna. These human Yajnas are described in the Sutras, purAnas and itihAsas which came to describe/analyze/understand/derived from the Vedas.

The human Yajnas have offering (materials/matter) to fire/Agni called havis. The offerings (havis) in these Yajna can be rice offerings, milk offerings (ghee), Soma or pazu. Based on the havis, Yajna can be in four types. iSTIs (rice based and can include other offerings too), Pazuka (animal), ajya (ghee) and Saumika (Soma).

But when it comes to pazuka, it is not that the animal is thrown into fire. For eg. Ramayana describes Aswamedha Yajna in which a captured horse, let to roam on its own in the grasslands for a year, is cut three times by the queen, bled to death and its omentum is roasted and smelled.

In my view this could be a very scientific ritual based on human experience, performed in those days as omentum of such a horse that is not domesticated (but from a well bred one) has great medicinal properties. I will share some of my understanding on why they could have done that in another OP.

In general, every ritual or tradition evolves over a period and comes up for a very specific reason. Like us, our ancestors are also not fools to create something just for the sake of it. So what they created had great value for their time. But as time moves on and environment changes, the tradition remains and seems out of place or cruel or idiotic. It is our responsibility to understand the reasons and evolve the traditions.

I agree with Dayanand Sarasvati that Vedas do not talk about animal sacrifices at all.

-TBT

thebigthinkg said:

Yajna is an act of sacrifice. Agni is the usable energy that can be shared, transferred etc.

Giving matter/materials to Agni is Yajna. This Universe is a Yajna, act of sacrifice.

In the Yajna of the Universe, matter is offered to Agni (usable energy), resulting in evolution of more complex and intelligent forms of matter and beings. Thus Universe is a system of sacrifice where lower order beings become the energy source (agni) of higher order beings. Vedas talk about this Universe's Yajna, which is cosmic science.

The human Yajnas are modeled after the Universe's Yajna. These human Yajnas are described in the Sutras, purAnas and itihAsas which came to describe/analyze/understand/derived from the Vedas.

The human Yajnas have offering (materials/matter) to fire/Agni called havis. The offerings (havis) in these Yajna can be rice offerings, milk offerings (ghee), Soma or pazu. Based on the havis, Yajna can be in four types. iSTIs (rice based and can include other offerings too), Pazuka (animal), ajya (ghee) and Saumika (Soma).

But when it comes to pazuka, it is not that the animal is thrown into fire. For eg. Ramayana describes Aswamedha Yajna in which a captured horse, let to roam on its own in the grasslands for a year, is cut three times by the queen, bled to death and its omentum is roasted and smelled.

In my view this could be a very scientific ritual based on human experience, performed in those days as omentum of such a horse that is not domesticated (but from a well bred one) has great medicinal properties. I will share some of my understanding on why they could have done that in another OP.

In general, every ritual or tradition evolves over a period and comes up for a very specific reason. Like us, our ancestors are also not fools to create something just for the sake of it. So what they created had great value for their time. But as time moves on and environment changes, the tradition remains and seems out of place or cruel or idiotic. It is our responsibility to understand the reasons and evolve the traditions.

I agree with Dayanand Sarasvati that Vedas do not talk about animal sacrifices at all.

-TBT

Click to expand...

So killing a horse did happen..that too by a queen?
I cant imagine a woman being able to kill a horse.

So nothing great finally..its all just blood thirsty traditions yet we are supposed to glorify everything.

So looks as if only Buddhism seems like a civilized school of thought.

renuka said:

So killing a horse did happen..that too by a queen?
I cant imagine a woman being able to kill a horse.

So nothing great finally..its all just blood thirsty traditions yet we are supposed to glorify everything.

So looks as if only Buddhism seems like a civilized school of thought.

Click to expand...

Hmm.. Fully applying moralities of today on past does not work as Moralities of past cannot be fully applied to present.

Are we living without killing animals..?

1. Did you have photo print-outs..? They have gelatin derived from animals.

2. Do you use batteries..? They have gelatin derived from animals.

3. Are there drugs without animal trials..?

4. Do you watch TV, use computers..? Your LCD display may use animal cholesterol.

5. What about vaccines..?

There are so many all around us.

The point is our current moralities allow us to torture and kill animals out of sight, while condemning them happening in sight. That's why I wrote it's tough to view past through prism of present, for we can't make sense of it.

Even the asvamedha yajna in rAmAyana talks about smelling the omentum and actually not consuming it similar to us using animal products in so many substances all around us, but many avoiding to directly consume them.

-TBT

"Ramayana describes Aswamedha Yajna in which a captured horse, let to roam on its own in the grasslands for a year, is cut three times by the queen, bled to death and its omentum is roasted and smelled. "

No, Sri thebigthinbkg. The Ramayana says no such thing. It ends with the makudaabhishegam of Sri Raama.

The Uttra-raamaayanam from which you probably quote, is not accepted as genuine by a large body of learned purohits and Puranic scholars. It is regarded as an unauthorised later addition, to dim the glory of the original Ramayanam extolling the virtues of Lord Rama. It is to be rejected as lacking authenticity. It is disregarded by Brahmins doing home paaraayanam of Valmeeki's true Ramayanam.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

S Narayanaswamy Iyer said:

"My view is that a ritual like kAsi yAtra could not be indicating going to saMnyAsa, as these dharma sutras should have been taught in the brahmacarya (in those days). Hence kAsi yAtra evolved more as a ritual identifying most learnt student out to go to kAsi for much higher learning,"

so announces Sri thebigthinkg at the end of his treatise.

Let me assume, for the sake of clarity, that he is not referring to the "marriage ritual" he mentioned elsewhere in this forum.

The Brahmaanda Puranaam urges us to adore the Paraa-shakthi with the naama: "loka-yaathra vidaayinye namaha". The Kali sahasra-naamaavali advises us to adore Her with the naama: "kaashi vilaasinee, kaashi-kshethra rakshana thathparaayai namaha".

He apparently does not accept these as encouraging members of all four aashramas to make voluntary pilgrimmages toi Kaashi.

He must be aware that on completion of his religious studies a brahmachaarin undergoes, with the permission of his gurus, very important samskaaram known as samavartana, which involves a ritual snaanam, before the graduate returns home.

In the circumstances, no question arises of only the "most learned student" going to Kaashi for "much higher learning". On the contrary, it is the disappointed householder, fed up with the responsibilities thrust upon his shoulders, to bear the burden of supporting the whole of society, that impels him to abandon his ties and try to escape to Kaashi seeking anonymity among the crowds there.

There is a Tamil song which I have heard mocking this trend:-

kaashikku pogum sannyaasi
un kudumbam ennaagum nee yoshi.

(hey, sannyaasi running away to Kaashi
give a thought to the plight of your abandoned family.)

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

Click to expand...

Sir, As I wrote earlier, I am only talking about kAsi yAtra ritual in Tambrahm marriages. My point was that dharma sutras largely prohibit skipping grhastasrama and hence it is not possible that a learned brahmacharin talks of going to saMnyAsa. The ritual has a book to be carried by the groom. In my understanding it should have evolved as a symbol of going to kAsi for higher learning, much like today, when learned grooms are in demand. kAsi is after all the original place of learning. TamBrahm marriage is a brahmadeya marriage where the bride is the 'Sarasvati' gifted to a boy with learning zeal.

In these context I quoted the dharma sutras.

I am neither saying kAsi yAtra should not/cannot be undertaken for other purposes nor ridiculing them.

-TBT

S Narayanaswamy Iyer said:

"Ramayana describes Aswamedha Yajna in which a captured horse, let to roam on its own in the grasslands for a year, is cut three times by the queen, bled to death and its omentum is roasted and smelled. "

No, Sri thebigthinbkg. The Ramayana says no such thing. It ends with the makudaabhishegam of Sri Raama.

The Uttra-raamaayanam from which you probably quote, is not accepted as genuine by a large body of learned purohits and Puranic scholars. It is regarded as an unauthorised later addition, to dim the glory of the original Ramayanam extolling the virtues of Lord Rama. It is to be rejected as lacking authenticity. It is disregarded by Brahmins doing home paaraayanam of Valmeeki's true Ramayanam.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

Click to expand...

Sir

If you accept bAla kAnda of vAlmiki rAmAyana as original, then we have it there.

http://valmikiramayan.net/utf8/baala/sarga14/bala_14_frame.htm

1.14.33
With great delight, Kausalya, struck the horse three times with kRpiNa (short knife)
1.14.34
Kausalya composed, desiring dharma, spent a night along with fallen (or flown off).

1.14.35
Hotr, Adhvaryu, udgata took the three wives by their hand

1.14.36
The Ritwik gathered with restrained senses, the membrane of horse's intestine or may be omentum, cooked according to procedure

1.14.37
The lord of men smelled the smoke of that omentum. Where time, where justice, drive away/cleanse the pApa of the being.

It further goes on to state that remaining parts of horse body are thrown into fire.

-TBT

thebigthinkg said:

Hmm.. Fully applying moralities of today on past does not work as Moralities of past cannot be fully applied to present.

Are we living without killing animals..?

1. Did you have photo print-outs..? They have gelatin derived from animals.

2. Do you use batteries..? They have gelatin derived from animals.

3. Are there drugs without animal trials..?

4. Do you watch TV, use computers..? Your LCD display may use animal cholesterol.

5. What about vaccines..?

There are so many all around us.

The point is our current moralities allow us to torture and kill animals out of sight, while condemning them happening in sight. That's why I wrote it's tough to view past through prism of present, for we can't make sense of it.

Even the asvamedha yajna in rAmAyana talks about smelling the omentum and actually not consuming it similar to us using animal products in so many substances all around us, but many avoiding to directly consume them.

-TBT

Click to expand...

See..its this simple..
Usage of animal products and even consuming non veg curds which contain life bacteria isnt part of a yagna to reach higher heavens.

If one wants to kill anything or anyone they may do so in the name of crime or science or survival but it should never be in the name of religion.

Sniffing glue is easier than sniffing Omentum and killing a horse for that.

The fact ia Ashwamedha is supposed to make a King reach higher heavens...so either its just some horse killer doctrine or Ashwamedha is totally not what we think it is.

Linking acts of killing a horse. to reach higher heavens isnt going to Transform anything...the only thing I can say justifying the acts of killing as a Yagna is an Optimus Crime!

S Narayanaswamy Iyer said:

"Ramayana describes Aswamedha Yajna in which a captured horse, let to roam on its own in the grasslands for a year, is cut three times by the queen, bled to death and its omentum is roasted and smelled. "

No, Sri thebigthinbkg. The Ramayana says no such thing. It ends with the makudaabhishegam of Sri Raama.

The Uttra-raamaayanam from which you probably quote, is not accepted as genuine by a large body of learned purohits and Puranic scholars. It is regarded as an unauthorised later addition, to dim the glory of the original Ramayanam extolling the virtues of Lord Rama. It is to be rejected as lacking authenticity. It is disregarded by Brahmins doing home paaraayanam of Valmeeki's true Ramayanam.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

Click to expand...

The Shambuka episode too is in.this Non Authentic Uttara Ramayana.

Wonder who fabricated all these.

thebigthinkg said:

Sir

If you accept bAla kAnda of vAlmiki rAmAyana as original, then we have it there.

http://valmikiramayan.net/utf8/baala/sarga14/bala_14_frame.htm

1.14.33

[FONT=&quot]कौसल्या तम् हयम् तत्र परिचर्य समंततः |[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]कृपाणैः विशशासः एनम् त्रिभिः परमया मुदा
[/FONT]​

With great delight, Kausalya, struck the horse three times with kRpiNa (short knife)

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]​

1.14.34

[FONT=&quot]पतत्रिणा तदा सार्धम् सुस्थितेन च चेतसा |[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]अवसत् रजनीम् एकाम् कौसल्या धर्म कांयया
[/FONT]​

Kausalya composed, desiring dharma, spent a night along with fallen (or flown off).

1.14.35

[FONT=&quot]होता अध्वर्युः तथ उद्गाता हस्तेन समयोजयन् |[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]महिष्या परिवृत्त्या अथ वावाताम् अपराम् तथा [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]​

Hotr, Adhvaryu, udgata took the three wives by their hand

1.14.36

[FONT=&quot]पतत्रिणः तस्य वपाम् उद्धृत्य नियतेइन्द्रियः |[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ऋत्विक् परम संपन्नः श्रपयामास शास्त्रतः
[/FONT]​

The Ritwik gathered with restrained senses, the membrane of horse's intestine or may be omentum, cooked according to procedure

1.14.37

[FONT=&quot]धूम गन्धम् वपायाः तु जिघ्रति स्म नराधिपः |[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]यथा कालम् यथा न्यायम् निर्णुदन् पापम् आत्मनः

[/FONT]​

The lord of men smelled the smoke of that omentum. Where time, where justice, drive away/cleanse the pApa of the being.

It further goes on to state that remaining parts of horse body are thrown into fire.

-TBT

Click to expand...

With all these sanctioned yet Eid Ul Adha cow slaughter is Adharmic for Hindutva.

To be honest no female slaughters an animal in another religion.

renuka said:

See..its this simple..
Usage of animal products and even consuming non veg curds which contain life bacteria isnt part of a yagna to reach higher heavens.

If one wants to kill anything or anyone they may do so in the name of crime or science or survival but it should never be in the name of religion.

Sniffing glue is easier than sniffing Omentum and killing a horse for that.

The fact ia Ashwamedha is supposed to make a King reach higher heavens...so either its just some horse killer doctrine or Ashwamedha is totally not what we think it is.

Linking acts of killing a horse. to reach higher heavens isnt going to Transform anything...the only thing I can say justifying the acts of killing as a Yagna is an Optimus Crime!

Click to expand...

Hmm.. As I wrote, looking at past from today's morals or looking at present from morals of the past are invalid, in my view.

-TBT

thebigthinkg said:

Hmm.. As I wrote, looking at past from today's morals or looking at present from morals of the past are invalid, in my view.

-TBT

Click to expand...

But leaving religion out of it at all times will be the best option.

Looks as if Buddhist school of thought seems the most logical..analytical and " moral"...that is God and Religion was kept out of the philosophy.

SM thebigthinkg

Yes, I have the same text of Sreemad Vaalmeeki's Raamaayana Baala Kaandam. Your translation seems to me, however, to be flawed. The more accurate translation of verses 33 to 38 appears to be:-

Consecrating (the foremost of the best horses belonging to Emperor Dasaratha) on all sides by sprinkling it with ritually purified water, Queen Kausalya touched it with great joy with three swords.

With intent to acquire religious merit Queen Kausalya then spent one night with the said horse with a perfectly composed mind.

.......

Taking out the edible parts of the tuber known as "asvagandha", the chief priest (sage Rishyashringa) cooked it according to scriptural ordinance. The Emperor Dasaratha smelt at the ordained time the odour of the steam from the cooked tuber.

All the 16 Braahmana priests together as one cast into the sacrificial fire with due ceremony all the articles deemed worthy of consigning into the sacred fire as part of horse-sacrifice.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

S Narayanaswamy Iyer said:

SM thebigthinkg

Yes, I have the same text of Sreemad Vaalmeeki's Raamaayana Baala Kaandam. Your translation seems to me, however, to be flawed. The more accurate translation of verses 33 to 38 appears to be:-

Consecrating (the foremost of the best horses belonging to Emperor Dasaratha) on all sides by sprinkling it with ritually purified water, Queen Kausalya touched it with great joy with three swords.

With intent to acquire religious merit Queen Kausalya then spent one night with the said horse with a perfectly composed mind.

.......

Taking out the edible parts of the tuber known as "asvagandha", the chief priest (sage Rishyashringa) cooked it according to scriptural ordinance. The Emperor Dasaratha smelt at the ordained time the odour of the steam from the cooked tuber.

All the 16 Braahmana priests together as one cast into the sacrificial fire with due ceremony all the articles deemed worthy of consigning into the sacred fire as part of horse-sacrifice.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

Click to expand...

Sir

If you can enlighten on these, it will help..
"In this, where is the word 'touched'..? What is the meaning of zazAsa..?

In the 'patatriNa tasya vapAm' (or anywhere is this sloka) where words "tuber" "asva gandha" appear..? What is cooked (zrapayamAsa zAstrataH" according to this sloka, can you highlight from this sloka..?

It will help to bridge our understanding.

Thanks for your valuable feedback.

-TBT

thebigthinkg said:

Sir

If you can enlighten on these, it will help..
"

कृपाणैः विशशासः एनम् त्रिभिः "
​

In this, where is the word 'touched'..? What is the meaning of zazAsa..?

पतत्रिणः तस्य वपाम् उद्धृत्य नियतेइन्द्रियः |
ऋत्विक् परम संपन्नः श्रपयामास शास्त्रतः

​

In the 'patatriNa tasya vapAm' (or anywhere is this sloka) where words "tuber" "asva gandha" appear..? What is cooked (zrapayamAsa zAstrataH" according to this sloka, can you highlight from this sloka..?

It will help to bridge our understanding.

Thanks for your valuable feedback.

-TBT

Click to expand...

Dear Mr TBT:

I know your question is directed to Mr Iyer, Let me add my thoughts based on Google searches only.

There are large volumes of work that includes word by word translations.,
It is possible that during Ramayana period people ate meat.
Let me copy and paste what I found.


++++++

[FONT=&quot]Then the priest, one with controlled senses and rich in scriptural wealth, took up the omentum [fat] of the horse and cooked it as per scriptures while dropping into the altar of fire to bake as a food to the celestials. [1-14-36][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Some more scholars give a non-violent touch to this act and they say that a medicinal plant ,is offered in altar and its smell is smelt. That plant is substituted for omentum of the horse, and the wording is read differently. When the sequence is running on horse and horse's body parts how a medical plant is brought in, is unclear. And some say that a horse will not have omentum according to Vedic texts.

a-TB said:

Dear Mr TBT:

I know your question is directed to Mr Iyer, Let me add my thoughts based on Google searches only.

There are large volumes of work that includes word by word translations.,
It is possible that during Ramayana period people ate meat.
Let me copy and paste what I found.


++++++

Then the priest, one with controlled senses and rich in scriptural wealth, took up the omentum [fat] of the horse and cooked it as per scriptures while dropping into the altar of fire to bake as a food to the celestials. [1-14-36]
Some more scholars give a non-violent touch to this act and they say that a medicinal plant ,is offered in altar and its smell is smelt. That plant is substituted for omentum of the horse, and the wording is read differently. When the sequence is running on horse and horse's body parts how a medical plant is brought in, is unclear. And some say that a horse will not have omentum according to Vedic texts.

Click to expand...

Yes, Sir. That's my question. I had provided my translations in the earlier posts, given links for the translations. You can click on the link and read it yourself.

When alternative understandings are provided there needs to be some basis for such translations. It can't be because it is not nicer to our current value systems.

That said I think the Horse sacrifice may be a brilliant one, may have a lot of medicinal value, as the sacrificed horse is a carefully selected stable horse, let roaming around and feeding on its own for a year, killed by a process of 'halaal' (three cuts and bled to death) without any shock to the horse so that no cortisols are produced and If I believe the brAhmanas, then even sexually excited.

All this I think points to a larger experience (than us), which I dealt with one of my early blogs on rAmAyana. People are not fools or cruel to do such things. As we have needs and justifications for our acts, they will have much more needs and justifications for their acts.

My point is we should never be judging the past with present value systems, as we should not be judging the present with past value systems.

-TBT