A test of varna other than by birth

[sravna]

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A country can be only as good as its leaders are. Choosing the right ones decides the course and the fate of the couintry. Not only India but many other nations of the world use standards in the selection of their leaders that are the cause of the problems abounding in their societies. Therefore we find that a person with even a criminal record and whose main objective in entering politics is to amass wealth, become a leader

The decadence at the top that is now permeating and taking deep roots in the society needs real and urgent attention. We find every evil practice being institutionalized from corruption to prostitution. The politicians probabaly have vested interests in all this and do not exercise their will to correct them.

We would want all these degenerate politicians to be removed and be replaced by some inspirational ones. The intellectual elite along with the media should make this happen and the citizens of the country should be disabused of the notion that only corrupt politicians are the norm.

The importance of right people at the right job cannot be be stressed more than now. It is the only way that the maladies of not only our society but also those of the others can be cured

Now I propose a classification akin to varna classification, to determine a person's suitability for a job

A person is of the highest varna if he doesn't show passion or emotion even when he is strongly provoked. This can be figured out by subjecting him to very stressful and provoking conditions. I think it is not difficult to design such a test of composure and confidence. This person should ideally perform advisory, adminstrative or scientific tasks

A person is of the second highest varna if he can meet force with force convincingly and is bold. Also he needs to be very sound in logic. Current assessment tools can perform this task adequately. This person belongs to the ruling class.

A person of the next varna should possess all the ingredients necessary for a businessman. He needs to possess guile, interpersonal skills etc.

The rest form the last varna.

The above basis of classification does not imply that those who are now classified by birth fit these qualities. It is in the spirit of the original varna classification where the assigment is based on certain mental qualities. It is really not necessary to assign varna but only to select the right people for any job.

 

[kunjuppu]

sravana,

why do we bother with all these classifications? the rest of the world has got along great with stratifying their societies along your proposed varna or caste or any other lines.

the closest to our caste system was the class system of the english - the groups did not intermarry, even though they looked alike, once they opened their mouth to speak, they could distinguish their differences and above all, the upper classes were born to access to privileges mainly through contacts and word of mouth. but all that went out of the window since the 1950s, and even england is today by and large a classless society.

also, i do not think that any of your suggestions will find converts from any non brahmin castes. i think, in tamil nadu, most of them, are well nigh willing to let sleeping dogs lie as they are and not upset the caste system. perhaps a hundred years earlier, your suggestion would have been well worth as it would be clarion call for change.

not sure really, knowing the realities of today, i think, your proposal would be seen as tambrams' sneaky way to grab back privileges. there won't be any takers, i think.

btw, if you are looking at instituting criteria solely for job selection, i think the indian society is going through a massive social change and peaceful revolution. people are not so much concerned about 'fit for the job'. it is the upward mobility offered through jobs, and every community would like to have a share of this pie. in this type of contest, political power and numbers play a big role. the only way to combat it is perhaps through 'rajathanthreeyam' ie political suave - which i feel our community has zero.

 

[kr subramanian]

now we have only two varnas the haves and havenots. those who have political/monetary backing are haves and others are havenots. What ever be your caste/religion /if you have money or political support youare a super brahmin and have entrance anywhere and can escape any guilt without punishment.n if otherwise you are as good as grass.

 

[sangom]

sravana,

why do we bother with all these classifications? the rest of the world has got along great with stratifying their societies along your proposed varna or caste or any other lines.

Shri Kunjuppu,

You have put the great truth in very simple words, Great!!

We still have youngsters harbouring under the illusion that by upholding hinduism (read "brahminism" because most of the times this is hidden) and the greatness of our scriptures, etc., etc., India and Indians can steal a march over the rest of the world.

also, i do not think that any of your suggestions will find converts from any non brahmin castes. i think, in [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]tamil [/FONT][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]nadu[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR], most of them, are well nigh willing to let sleeping dogs lie as they are and not upset the caste system. perhaps a hundred years earlier, your suggestion would have been well worth as it would be clarion call for change.

That is the reason why I suggest that we better don't think of any community-level efforts to show that as brahmins we have thrown out casteism and, instead, allow the natural course of individuals and families to change, evolve and fit in with the society at large.

 

[srikrish85]

Sangomji,

Superb response Sangomji... Gr8
Yes your response is very enlightening.

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you sangom

 

[Nara]

.....That is the reason why I suggest that we better don't think of any community-level efforts to show that as brahmins we have thrown out casteism and, instead, allow the natural course of individuals and families to change, evolve and fit in with the society at large.

Dear Sangom sir, this is absolutely the only realistic possibility for the future. The leadership, both religious and laity, is incapable of providing inspired leadership, they are too bogged down with tradition as they see it. But change is sure to come, one family at a time. My hope is to prepare each family to face the inevitable with the least amount of heartache.

Cheers!

 

[CLN]

Very true. Changes in society, if they have to be permanent, have to come from 'inside' the society, and not by thrusting anything from 'above' by rule or law or other dictates. It is essentially an evolution, not a revolution and will naturally be slow, self-correcting and self-adjusting. Our task, therefore, is only to make and keep the ground fertile enough for the seeds of change to germinate grow and prosper.

 

[Nara]

Very true. Changes in society, if they have to be permanent, have to come from 'inside' the society, and not by thrusting anything from 'above' by rule or law or other dictates.

Dear CLN, Brahmins are fortunate to live among the Tamils, whose culture, in spite of the much feared DK/DMK, allows for peaceful transformation. Just imagine what it would have been like if we were to undergo what the privileged among the French had to undergo!! For all the "hatred" the likes of DK is supposed to have visited upon the Brahmins, the Brahmins have done just fine, and there is no reason to suspect it will be any worse in the future.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sravana Sir, Greetings.

....Therefore we find that a person with even a criminal record and whose main objective in entering politics is to amass wealth, become a leader

In India and in most countries, politicians are not leaders but opportunists to generate wealth through politics.

A person is of the highest varna if he doesn't show passion or emotion even when he is strongly provoked. This can be figured out by subjecting him to very stressful and provoking conditions. I think it is not difficult to design such a test of composure and confidence.

I don't know about others, but I have seen this 'test' carried out already. I can speak only from my experiences. A group of persons did not show agression under constant provocation.

This person should ideally perform advisory, adminstrative or scientific tasks

The society used such persons to do 'lower level' jobs (the jobs others did not like to do).

That group of persons in my village were known as 'parayas'. I have seen them stay calm under undue provocations.

Sir, I humbly request you to review your varna classifications.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Sri.Sravana Sir, Greetings.



In India and in most countries, politicians are not leaders but opportunists to generate wealth through politics.



I don't know about others, but I have seen this 'test' carried out already. I can speak only from my experiences. A group of persons did not show agression under constant provocation.



The society used such persons to do 'lower level' jobs (the jobs others did not like to do).

That group of persons in my village were known as 'parayas'. I have seen them stay calm under undue provocations.

Sir, I humbly request you to review your varna classifications.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

I understand your point. But even those who come in support of the varna classification do not deny that injustice happened. The point is, the larger picture was lost. Why should we refuse to look at the benefits that it can offer? Why try to raze down the system when the right thing to do would be to correct the course?

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

I understand your point. But even those who come in support of the varna classification do not deny that injustice happened. The point is, the larger picture was lost. Why should we refuse to look at the benefits that it can offer? Why try to raze down the system when the right thing to do would be to correct the course?

Sri.Sravana Sir, Greetings.

Personally, I don't support varna system in anyway. Not by birth method; not even by 'guna karma' method. But, that does not restrict the discussion though.

There is no system as such. Kindly look at the formula...

catur varnyam maya srishtyam guna karma vibhakasa;

Every individual exhibits satva, rajo and thamasa gunas at different times in any given day. Similarly, every individual takes up various actions which may fit different role in any given day. வைசிகனாக செயல்பட கத்தரிக்காய் விற்க வேண்டுமென்பதில்லை; பேரம் பேசி வாங்குவதே வைசிக லக்ஷணம்தான்......(you don't have to sell anything to act as a vaishya; your bargaining while purchasing itself makes you a vaishya). In short, everyone of us irrespective of the religion/nationality/age etc, we all come under different permutation and combination of 'Guna - Karma' situation. Restricting such traits to various groups is not practical.

so, the whole varna system is understood incorrectly.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Raghy,

I do not understand why people are so resistant to even the idea that there can be real differences in guna, when they are open to the western notion of personality differences?

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

I do not understand why people are so resistant to even the idea that there can be real differences in guna, when they are open to the western notion of personality differences?

Sri. sravana Sir,

Greetings. I do not know about others, but personally I will not agree guna based on birth. If anyone say "குலத்தான் அமைவது குணம்......", I oppose it. Secondly, Guna at any given time depends upon the situation and environment (தேச கால வர்த்தமானம்....). So, I would much hesitate to identify anyone with a Guna.

Western notion of 'personality' differences are not based on birth. Such personality traits are expected based on environment (growing up environment), education, exposures to various stressors, psychological strength and weaknesses etc.

I sincerely hope I making some sense. If I am not, kindly let me know, please.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Raghy,

I don't understand how anyone can deny something just because it is caused by birth. Is it because brahmin dominance or oppression has been so much that that any difference due to birth is not accepted?

But even Science attributes personality differences to both heredity and environment.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

I don't understand how anyone can deny something just because it is caused by birth. Is it because brahmin dominance or oppression has been so much that that any difference due to birth is not accepted?

But even Science attributes personality differences to both heredity and environment.

Sri.Sravana Sir,

I am not denying anything here. I deny subscribing a particular varna to a group of persons based on their birth, kulam only. I quite accept, good qualities may be passed through genes, through heridities in some cases. But, I hesitate to subscribe such good qualities to one group of persons.

I request you to kindly go through my messages; I don't talk about brahmin caste dominance. In fact, I am not talking about brahmin caste at all. I am only talking about 'kulam'; 'gunam' and action. I request you not to put my discussions in 'pigeon hole'; they are quite open discussion.

If you like, we can leave the brahmin caste altogether from the discussion; still my line of discussion will not change.

Although heridity plays a role in one's basic personalities (note; I said 'basic personality', which could change due to environment), environment plays a major role in forming one's personality.

But even then, how would one define 'good quality'? I have seen a gem of person who uses the word 'fucking' liberally as conjunctions in every sentence; where as I came across a cheat who had such a polished behaviour and outwardly 'so polite'.

Studying one's personality only from outward actions is very difficult; we need more information than that. In such a situation, how can we subscribe 'any quality - be good or bad' to a group of persons based on birth only? That's why science does not award qualities based on heridity alone.....although there is an impact, not so huge though.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Raghy,

Our discussion is, whether good qualities or bad qualities can be intrinsic. If the answer is even yes partly, we need to accept there is a basis to group people on such qualities. Whether brahmins possessed good qualities depends on, as you say what one considers as good qualities. If you consider sattvic disposition which is a defining basis for brahmins as good then brahmins intrinsically have good qualities.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

Our discussion is, whether good qualities or bad qualities can be intrinsic. If the answer is even yes partly, we need to accept there is a basis to group people on such qualities. Whether brahmins possessed good qualities depends on, as you say what one considers as good qualities. If you consider sattvic disposition which is a defining basis for brahmins as good then brahmins intrinsically have good qualities.

Sri.Sravana Sir,

Greetings. Yes, good qualities can be intrinsic partly due to heridity, passed through the genes. Yes, we may be able to group persons based on the information in their genes, where, persons belonging to such 'group' are more often than not may be expected to have very nice qualities or socialy accepted nicer qualities.

I have no qualms in accepting your views so far.

But, I can not accept satvic disposition as defining basis for brahmins only. The key word here is 'only'. Yes, there are/were very nice persons, polite, only interested in helping others whenever possible etc in every caste/varna/nationality/religion/age group......

Sorry Sir, I refuse to consider satvic disposition as defining basis for 'all the brahmins' across the board. Such dispositions have to be proved by practice in one's life. Such dispositions can not be granted 'in whole' by birth alone.

If we go deeper in the subject and define such 'sattvic dispositions', we may find such dispositions amoung persons belonging to other communities too, as I mentioned earlier at the beginning of our discussion.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Raghy,

You can do little about a definition. Brahmins are those whose predominant guna is sattva. Transfer through genes may not be perfect but by and large I think the disposition is preserved. But since environment also plays a major role, a very polluting environment may not bring out that disposition

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

You can do little about a definition. Brahmins are those whose predominant guna is sattva. Transfer through genes may not be perfect but by and large I think the disposition is preserved. But since environment also plays a major role, a very polluting environment may not bring out that disposition

Sri.Sravana Sir,

Greetings. I still hesiatate to identify all the brahmins with Sattvic Guna. Sattvics are spread every where in the humanity. I think I said that before. I may not have anything more new to add to this topic. I invite you to coclude our discussion with the summary of your point of view on this topic, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Sri.Sravana Sir,

Greetings. I still hesiatate to identify all the brahmins with Sattvic Guna. Sattvics are spread every where in the humanity. I think I said that before. I may not have anything more new to add to this topic. I invite you to coclude our discussion with the summary of your point of view on this topic, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,

I think my last post sums it up

 

[CLN]

Varnashrama dharma, when it originated and avidly practised, inter-varna mobility must have existed in the society. Otherwise, how could any one explain the following? Parasurama, a brahmin by birth, took up the role of a kshatriya, at least in some period of his life. Drona, again a brahmin, though he lived as a teacher (but of yoddhas), did put on armour to fight in Kurukshetra war. Vidhura, a Vaishya, on the other hand, lived like a brahmin. Akroorar, a kshatriya, lived like a brahmin. It was also possible, in those days for a person to move up
or down in the hierarchy of varnashramas - Vishwamitra, a kshatriya by birth, became a brahmin by perseverance. A very lowly Valmiki, could become a great maharshi!

So, it will do immense good to the society, in general, if we do not decry or exalt blindly any of the three gunas - Saatvikam, Raajasam and Thaamasam, because each one of them serves a purpose in the life of an average person.

I hasten to add that I am not just equating the three gunas, but am only pointing out that the world, if it has to function, has use for ALL the three Gunas. One cannot imagine a world where every one is purely saatvic, or for that matter, purely rajoic or purely taamasic. This is without prejudice to the belief that Saatvikam should command more veneration over Raajasam which in turn should be held superior to Thaamasam, for emulation, despite the uses of all the three gunas.

 

[Dr.S.Ramanathan]

I am afraid that there is an unintended mix up between Varna and Jati,Caste, in this discussion. Varna and Ashrama dharmas, as prescribed have almost disappeared. We spend so much time on discussing Brahmanyam as a Varna. Have we contemplated about the following of Ashrama dharma, like Brahmacharya, Grihasta, Vanaprasta and Sanyasa? What is unfortunate today and of serious concern is the Caste. Contrary to what Dr. Ambedkar had envisaged that the caste reservations should disappear within ten years after the Republic was formed, today we are clinging to the castes,particularly all those other than Brahmins( as a caste),much more than ever.,. We have also seen how different castes have become more diminant and powerful at different periods during the last 50 years in different parts of the country.All the subcates of the Brahmins as a whole will have to see what they can get out of this looting of the country or whether they can put some order in this chaos and bring some sanity and if so, how.
Regards,
Ramanathan.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Mumudivaram Balayogi (near Rajahmundry,Andhra) was a dalit boy engaged in taking cows, cattle to fields daily. One evening he never returned
from the fields and sat in meditation (when he was around 12 years) and sat in meditation till his 60+ years.Every year lakhs of people used to stand in Q on Shivrathri night
in open fields to have his Dharsan.In the year 1970,I stood in the Q from 8.30 pm.The Dharsan started at 4.00 am and my turn came
around 9.30am.The crowd was unmanageable like Lord Venkateshwara
Dharsan in Tirupathi.Large number of Police personal were managing
the Crowd.
As per Varnasrama Dharma, Mumudivaram Balayogi was a Brahmin.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

sir:

I am sure many of you might have heard about late Gopalakrishna Bharathi, who
wrote the famous 'Nandanar charitram". Nandanar was a great baktha of Lord
nataraja of Chidambaram and he belonged to low caste. The landlord who was a
brahmin did not treat him well, not knowing the greatness of Nandanar. Whenever
nandanar asked his permission to go to Chidambaram, he used to reply - go tomorrow.
Once the landlord asked him to cultivate and harvest the crop in one day and then
he can go to Chidambaram happily. How to do this impossible task ?

Vinayagar did it in one night !. The next morning people went and told the landlord
about this miracle. The landlord rushed to see this miracle and when questioned,
nandaanar replied that it is all HIS work. Realising that Nandanar was a self-realized
man, even though belonging to low caste, the landlord fell at his feet and hugged him.
The entire village worshipped Nandanar. Caste is no bar.

When nandanar went to Chidambaram, he stood at the outskirts of the city fearing that
the priests of the temple would not allow him inside the temple and sang the song
' arugul varalaamO ayya ' in manchi raga ( this is a beautiful song, hence this reference)
and Lord Shiva appeared in the dream of all the priests and commanded them to go
and receive nandanar. The priests did so.

Yet they wanted him to pass through fire and he did. Fire did not burn him. He climbed
the sanctum santorum and merged with Lord Nataraja. All the brahmins priests
praised him.

Again Viswamitra saw that all his weapons were futile before the Dhandam of
Vasistha. He was a kshatriya. His valour was no match before the tapas of sage
Vasistha. He renounced the kingdom and did penance for many many years. First
he was blessed as Raja rishi, and not satisfied he went on with his tapas. Brahma
conferred on him the title Brahma rishi. Still he was not satisfied, and he wanted
Sage Vasistha to recognise him as Brahma rishi. And sage Vasistha gracefully did.
By effort king Viswamitra became a brahma rishi.

This treatise will be lenghty if I start explaining about three gunas, gunaathitha,
three avasthas and the turiya state. But suffice it to say that once you go beyond
all these you know Brahman and become a jnani. There is no caste, no gender there.