a thoughtful post by jayamohan

[kunjuppu]

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i dont know how many here read badri seshadri's lament in the times of india, about the poor social perception of brahmins in tamil nadu. for one thing, there is sure a storm in face book and the cyberworld.

jeyamohan in his unique way, has penned this thoughtful article. ..worth a read. i think so.

ஒடுக்கப்படுகிறார்களா பிராமணர்கள்?

 

[kunjuppu]

... and here is another thoughtful look at a rural situation by another popular blogger vaa.manikandan

யார் சாதி பார்க்கிறாங்க?

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Kunjuppu sir,

I read it fully. What Jeyamohan has said has a special importance as it comes from Jeyamohan who is not a brahmin.

Thanks for sharing. I hold similar views as Jeyamohan.

 

[sangom]

i dont know how many here read badri seshadri's lament in the times of india, about the poor social perception of brahmins in tamil nadu. for one thing, there is sure a storm in face book and the cyberworld.

jeyamohan in his unique way, has penned this thoughtful article. ..worth a read. i think so.

ஒடுக்கப்படுகிறார்களா பிராமணர்கள்?

Shri Kunjuppu,

Jemo has written this:

பெரும்படைப்புகளை எழுத அவர்களால் சாதாரணமாக முடிந்ததில்லை. அவற்றை போர்ச்சாதிகளும் அடித்தளச் சாதிகளுமே சாதித்தன. வான்மீகியும், வியாசனும், குணாத்யனும், பாசனும், கம்பனும் காளிதாசனும், இளங்கொவும், வள்ளுவனும் பிறரே.

What is your view?

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri Kunjuppu,

Jemo has written this:

பெரும்படைப்புகளை எழுத அவர்களால் சாதாரணமாக முடிந்ததில்லை. அவற்றை போர்ச்சாதிகளும் அடித்தளச் சாதிகளுமே சாதித்தன. வான்மீகியும், வியாசனும், குணாத்யனும், பாசனும், கம்பனும் காளிதாசனும், இளங்கொவும், வள்ளுவனும் பிறரே.

What is your view?

dear sangom,

i have very high opinion of jmo. by and large, i tend to agree with him. it is not meant to put anybody down, but i like jmo's sense of logic and way of looking at things.

 

[krish44]

Kunjuppuji
Jemo article is thought provoking .

Would you mind posting Badri seshadris' article also? .

Jemo article is a rejoinder to BS's post Without that it is incomplete .

It is harsh pure tamil . Difficult to comprehend in places . an english translation would facilitate .Possible?

It is one of the brilliant posts in this forum .thanks for posting.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

Very nice article. Thanks for sharing.

Some of my thoughts in blue.

ஆனால் கண்டிப்பாக அவர்களின் வேலைவாய்ப்புகளும் அரசுசார் அதிகாரமும் குறைந்துகொண்டேதான் செல்கின்றன. அதை அவர்கள் கணிப்பொறித்துறை போன்றவற்றில் புகுந்து அடைந்த வெற்றி மூலம் ஈடுகட்டிவருகிறார்கள். இந்த மாற்றத்தை நான் ஒரு ஜனநாயக பூர்வமான மாற்றமாகவே எண்ணுகிறேன். அதை ஒரு கல்விகற்ற, வரலாற்றுணர்வுகொண்ட பிராமணர் ஏற்றுக்கொண்டுதான் ஆகவேண்டும். பிற உயர்சாதியினரும்தான்.

கல்வி ஒன்றுதான் பிழைக்க வழி என்ற நிலை இன்று உள்ளது அப்பட்டமான உண்மை.

ஆனால் கணிசமானவர்களின் வாழ்க்கையில் பிராமணர்கள் பேருதவிசெய்திருப்பார்கள். நீண்டகால நட்பு பேணியிருப்பார்கள். இக்கட்டான தருணங்களில் இவர்கள் சென்று நிற்கும் இடமும் ஒரு பிராமணனின் வீடாகவே இருக்கும்.அத்தனைக்கும் அப்பால் பிராமணர் “பாப்பாரப்புத்தியக் காட்டிட்டீயே” என்ற வசையையும் எதிர்கொள்ளவேண்டியிருக்கும்.

பிராமணர் சிலரே 'பிராமண புத்தி' எனச் சொல்லுவதை நான் கேட்டுள்ளேன்!

பிராமணர்கள் நேரடியாகவே வசைபாடப்படுவார்கள். அதிகாரிகள் என்றால் இன்னமும் வசைபாடப்படுவார்கள். அந்தவசைகளை அவர்கள் எதிர்கொள்ளும் முறை பரிதாபகரமானது. பெரும்பாலும் அதை ஒருவகை வேடிக்கையாக மாற்றிக்கொண்டு கடந்துசெல்வார்கள். அல்லது போலி மேட்டிமைத்தனம் ஒன்றைக் காட்டி பேசாமல் செல்வார்கள். ..

'மௌனம் கலக நாஸ்தி' என்பது பிராமணர்கள் அறியாததா என்ன?

தூத்துக்குடியில் இருந்த ஒரு பிராமண நண்பனிடம் பதினைந்தாண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பு இதைப்பற்றிப் பேசியபோது அவனது மனைவி அலுவலகம் செல்லும்போது அடையும் அவமதிப்பைப் பற்றிச் சொன்னான். அது அவனது கற்பனையே என நான் வாதிட்டேன். பந்தயம் வைத்துக்கொண்டேன். அவள் அலுவலகம் செல்லும்போது நான் கூடவே விலகிச் சென்றேன். நம்ப முடியவில்லை. இரண்டுகிலோமீட்டர் நடந்துசெல்லும் வழியில் மூன்றுபேர் அவளை ‘லட்டு’ என்று கூப்பிட்டு சீட்டியடித்தார்கள். வேறெந்த சாதிப்பெண்ணை அப்படிச் சொல்லியிருந்தாலும் செவிள் பிய்ந்திருக்கும். ...

நம்மவர்கள் திரு ஜெமினி கணேசனை என்னவென்று அழைப்பார்கள் என்று நாம் அறிவோமே! ஒரு திரைப்படத்தில் ஒரு பிராமணப் பெண்ணை சக மாணவியர் கூப்பிடும் பெயர் 'தயிர் சாதம்'!

நாடறிந்த ஒரு பிராமணரின் [நீங்களெல்லாம் அறிந்தவர்தான்] நிலம் மிகக்குறைந்த விலைக்கு அவரிடமிருந்து மிரட்டி வாங்கப்பட்டபோது அவர் ஒன்றுமே செய்யமுடியாமல் கையறுநிலையில் என்னிடம் பேசியிருக்கிறார். அவர் முதலீடு செய்த மொத்தப்பணத்தையும் ஒருவர் ஏமாற்றிவிட்டு சவால் விட்டபோது அவர் தனிமையில் என்னிடம் குமுறியிருக்கிறார். ..

வீர லக்ஷ்மியின் கடாக்ஷம் இவர்களுக்கு இல்லை என்று அனைவரும் அறிவர்!

பிராமணர்களுக்கு அவர்களுக்கே உரிய பண்பாடு ஒன்று உள்ளது என அவர்கள் உணர்ந்தால் அதை அவர்கள் பேணுவதில் என்ன பிழை? அது பிறரை பாதிக்காதவரை அதில் தவறே இல்லை.

ஆனால் பலர் இந்தப் பண்பாட்டைத் தாமே கேவலமாக நினைப்பதுதான் நிதர்சனமான உண்மை!

ஒரு பிராமணர் தமிழகத்தில் அவர் அவமதிக்கப்பட்டு ஒதுக்கப்பட்டு துரத்தப்படுவதாக உணர்வது அப்பட்டமான நடைமுறை உண்மை.

:clap2:

 

[vgane]

Kunjuppuji
Jemo article is thought provoking .

Would you mind posting Badri seshadris' article also? .

Jemo article is a rejoinder to BS's post Without that it is incomplete .

It is harsh pure tamil . Difficult to comprehend in places . an english translation would facilitate .Possible?

It is one of the brilliant posts in this forum .thanks for posting.

Here goes Badri Seshadri's post

'The angst of the Tamil brahmin: Live and let live' - The Times of India

 

[krish44]

The article of Jemo is very informative and gives an insight into inter caste equations in tamilnadu over the years

His thesis that telugus in tamilnadu were the principal reason for their downslide and congress of rajaji and kamaraj contibuted to their decline comes as information.

his thought that there is no reason for brahmin hatred from NBs shows a liberal mindset from a NB. His thinking that brahmins and dalits at the ends of caste spectrum

face similar discrimination from intermediate castes could be a reason for them to cooperate politically with those professing other religions to join a grand coalition

.against dravidian parties . such coalition is there in north india with congress part of it. even bJP can try it in tamilnadu to get power

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Iyer community is one of the castes in Hinduism. It is not a different religion.

Badri Seshadri said

Brahmins should be allowed to follow their cultural practices, like Jains, Buddhists etc. Jainism and Buddhism are different religions, and not part of Hinduism, and these religions enjoy minority status. Brahmins cannot enjoy minority status within the religion.

Jeyamohan said

Iyers face criticism constantly

Since most of the Iyers follow certain specific practices, which are quite different from other Hindu castes, Iyers are being looked differently. After introduction of reservation policy and vote bank politics thru castes, each caste group knows its strength. Brahmins become quite a few in number, especially in villages and small towns, which resulted in criticism. But, this does not restrict only to Brahmins. It affects all castes where a particular caste is a minority. Dharmapuri incident was a perfect example.

Brahmin Agraharam is deserted in Nagercoil

It applies to all Hindu castes. My colleague, who belonged to ‘Pillai Caste’ from Nagercoil, said large number of Hindus moved out of Nagercoil for employment and Christians are a major force.

Jeyamohan used to criticize Brahmins and put Fish in a Brahmin lunch during his college days and now regretted for that.

It is not surprising since Brahmins are minority in the Hindu fold in all places and such things tend to happen. Would he do such a thing if he had Jain friend? He would definitely not have done it, since Jainism is a different religion.

Jobs

Brahmins can do only some specific jobs. Hard labour is not known to us. Hence, opportunity is quite minimum.

Importance of Unity

One of my supervisors was a Kamma Naidu. He got promotion every year due to special affection shown by the GM, who was an Iyengar, sidelining two Iyers who also possessed similar qualifications. He used to say he didn’t like Brahmins. Once the Naidu became GM, he started showing his colour. One day, standing in the middle of the hall, he uttered ‘PAPPANUKKU PATTATHAN THERIYUM’. No Brahmin raised his voice against him. A PSU employee in the capacity of GM made that statement.

He applied the same method against another community, which is steadily gaining control in Govts and PSUs. All the community employees joined and protested against him. One member even secretly recorded his utterance against the CEO in his mobile and played it to the CEO.

As he had lot of complaints, an enquiry was ordered and at the time of retirement, his benefits were stopped. There was no farewell letter. Despite putting more than 3 decades of service, his exit was painful. Only recently, he got all his benefits.

The total population of Parsi community is less than 80,000 in the entire world. But, they are very powerful and equally successful in all fields. The mantra is unity.

Each community must have some special traits. Iyers are not an exception. Such traits must be explored and encouraged. Nowadays opportunities are more. Survival is not a big thing. But unity is a must.

There are two options for Iyer community in TN

– one strong and united approach irrespective of sub sect and mutt following
- forget about the community and join the Hindu mainstream

History indicates that Iyers never learn from past experiences.

 

[krish44]

Here goes Badri Seshadri's post

'The angst of the Tamil brahmin: Live and let live' - The Times of India

Thanks Vgane ji for the link to the post by badri seshadri

I do not see anything untruthful or controversial in the post.

Brahmins have been discriminated against in tamilnadu and that needs to change at the earliest.

They need to demand their political space . Why not ? Now they have a govt at the centre which is trying to get into tamilnadu . That party appears to be the best bet

for them.They definitely should not put up with every injustice and ask for reservation under a separate head in education and govt jobs.


brahmins priority is education undoubtedly. brilliant minds are not getting subsidised education in anna university while third class fellows are encouraged . there needs

to be a level playing field in education . A dispensation that does not honour merit and supports mediocrity can never last for long.brahmin talent is flying out of

tamilnadu for better pastures elsewhere in india and abroad.Only poor non academically inclined brahmins are getting left behind in tamilnadu. even smart archakars

are heading abroad

their lands have been usurped ,agraharams are deserted, edu,job oppurtunities denied, discriminated,vilified for what crime?

it is very poor leadership and inability to organise themselves.

we require a NB to say brahmins should be treated better in tamilnadu and not made hate figures.such things get posted here and people get delighted by that . wah tamil brahmins.

they are in no way responsible for all the ills of tamilnadu like water shortage,power cuts .

their menfolk are insulted, ridiculed for practising their customs and religion ,their women subjected to unsavoury comments and passes by leering men. yet brahmins

because of their satvik nature put up with all this

and sing about glory of tamil nadu.

Thats the mindset of tamil brahmin.lol

 

[Naina_Marbus]

A very pertinent observation of Jeyamohan - applicable to sickular self-hating "brahmins"

தங்களை முற்போக்குப் பிராமணர்கள் என்று காட்டிக்கொள்ள வேண்டும் என்ற வாஞ்சையின் வெளிப்பாடுகள் ……எப்போது பிராமணக் காழ்ப்பு இங்கே எழுந்ததோ அன்று முதல் இங்கே இருந்துகொண்டிருக்கிறது. அந்தக்குரல் உடனே கவனிக்கப்படும் …., அதைச் சொன்னவர் தற்காலிகமான பாராட்டுகளுக்கு பாத்திரமாவார் …

 

[vgane]

Can someone help in translating the article of Jayamohan in English..It will bring more clarity to the issue

 

[sangom]

A very pertinent observation of Jeyamohan - applicable to sickular self-hating "brahmins"

தங்களை முற்போக்குப் பிராமணர்கள் என்று காட்டிக்கொள்ள வேண்டும் என்ற வாஞ்சையின் வெளிப்பாடுகள் ……எப்போது பிராமணக் காழ்ப்பு இங்கே எழுந்ததோ அன்று முதல் இங்கே இருந்துகொண்டிருக்கிறது. அந்தக்குரல் உடனே கவனிக்கப்படும் …., அதைச் சொன்னவர் தற்காலிகமான பாராட்டுகளுக்கு பாத்திரமாவார் …

Is it not true that it was because of such முற்போக்குப் பிராமணர்கள் that the rest, including almost the entire tabras of today, have at least a way of survival?

I am seeing "Vaadhyars" travelling by bus/autos, eating in hotels - including masala dosa, masala vada, etc. - sitting next to any person, being served mostly by NB servers and then coming to perform various rites in different homes. But for the முற்போக்குப் பிராமணர்கள், such changes would not have been possible in the last few decades, I feel.

Jeya,ohan's post makes good reading but he comes out as a brahmin-opponent rather than as a brahmin-hater (பிராமணக் காழ்ப்பு). But then that has to do with the politics peculiar to TN.

 

[sangom]

Jeyamohan, in my view, gives his own version of "Brahmin hatred" as modified by his being born and brought up in the erstwhile Travancore State where, the Brahmin hatred did not rise to the same crescendo as in TN. He states that "anti-brahminism" will ever stay in India (இந்தியாவில் பிராமண மறுப்ப்பு என்றும் இருக்கும்.). Where he tries to be different is in criticizing பிராமணக் காழ்ப்பு (detest of brahmins, I think is a true enough translation.). But then, to unite Indians as a whole, our independence movement had the british and hatred of british as a unifying force; it is a historical fact that hatred against a common enemy or perceived common enemy, works as a more reliable unifying force against disparate people, and the Dravidian movement picked up brahmins as the common enemy of the entire rest of the population of TN. This strategy worked because, in those days, even the anti-dalit attitude of brahmins was, perhaps, fresh in the memories of the dalits. Jeyamohan certifies to this as follows:

என் வெள்ளையானை நாவல் வெளிவந்தபோது அதில் தலித்துக்கள் மேல் காழ்ப்பு கொண்ட பிராமணர் ஒருவர் கதாபாத்திரமாக வருவதைக் க்ண்டு கொதித்துப்போய் பிராமணர்கள் எழுதியிருந்தனர். அந்நாவல் முன்வைக்கும் அடிப்படை அறத்தை அவர்கள் உணரத் தயாராக இல்லை. பிராமணர்கள் சென்ற நூற்றாண்டில் தலித்துக்களுக்கு எதிரான மனநிலை கொண்டிருந்தார்கள் என்ற எளிய வரலாற்றைக்கூட அவர்களின் சாதிப்பற்று மறைத்தது.

(when my novel 'white elephant' was published, many brahmins got enraged and wrote to me, because, one brahmin character in that novel detests dalits. They were unable to understand the central message of the novel. Their caste-affinity clouded the very fact that in the last century also, brahmins were pitted against Dalits.)

2. Regarding brahmins' losing their (pre-eminent) position in society, Jeyamohan writes:

முதல்படிநிலைச் சாதிகளில் பிராமணர்களின் நிலஉரிமை என்பது கொஞ்சம் மாறுபட்டது. அது கைவச உரிமை அல்ல, வரியில் ஒரு பங்கைக் கொள்ளும் உரிமை மட்டுமே.சோழர்களின் ஆட்சியில் அவ்வுரிமை அளிக்கப்பட்டது. பின்னர் நாயக்கர் ஆட்சியில் அவை மேலும் உறுதி செய்யப்பட்டன.

மன்னராட்சி மறைந்து பிரிட்டிஷ் ஆட்சி வந்ததுமே அந்த வரி அவர்களுக்கு வராமலாகியது. அவர்கள் ஆங்கிலக் கல்வி கற்று ஆங்கில அரசில் பணியில் சேர்ந்து அவ்வீழ்ச்சியை எதிர்கொண்டார்கள். அவர்களுக்கு நெடுங்காலமாக கல்விகற்றுவந்த ஒரு குலமரபிருந்தமையால் அதற்கேற்ற மனநிலையும் குடும்பச்சூழலும் இருந்தது.

The land rights of brahmins, from among the three higher castes, was abrogated. It was not a right of possession (of farm land) but the right to a share of the tax from land. Such right was granted (to brahmins) during the Chola regimes and further strengthened during the rule of the Nayakkars.

As soon as british rule took over from the Nayak rule, this share of tax ( to brahmins) got stopped. They (the brahmins) learned English and started serving the british government and thus they made up for the loss of that (land-tax) income. Since the brahmins had a long history of learning, their domestic environments and mentality were conducive to such study (of English).

The situation post-Independence is given as :

அதன்பின் இந்தியா முழுக்க கொண்டுவரப்பட்ட நிலச்சீர்திருத்தங்கள் பிராமணர்களின் நிலவுரிமையை இல்லாமலாக்கின. தமிழகத்தில் அதைக்கொண்டுவர வாதிட்டவர் ராஜாஜிதான்.1962ல் காமராஜ் ஆட்சிக்காலத்தில் அது சட்டமாகியது. அரசுப்பணிகளில் இடஒதுக்கீட்டுக்கான சட்டங்கள் சுதந்திரத்துக்கு முன்னும்பின்னும் காங்கிரஸ் ஆட்சிக்காலத்தில் உருவானவை.

ஆகவே பிராமணர்கள் மட்டும் அதிகாரத்தில் இருந்து விலக்கப்பட்டிருக்கிறார்கள்,

Thereafter land reforms were brought in the whole of India which took away all land-rights of brahmins. Rajaji was the person who spearheaded the land reforms in TN. It was enacted in 1962 during Kamaraj's CM-ship. The laws relating to reservation of government jobs, both pre- and post- Independence were steps initiated during congress rule.


Hence, to my limited knowledge, Jeyamohan is no different in anti-brahminism from any other NB, but he sure has sugar-coated the bitter pill so that brahmin readers of his blogs and books are not lost!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

It looks like Jeyamohan agrees with all the four points from Badri's post. His refutal of the first point is not strong; his only explanation is that not only Brahmins but some other caste groups have also lost out post independence. Obviously he had his compulsions and perhaps he did not want people to think that his take on this matter is a mere rejoinder to Badri's post.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Is it not true that it was because of such முற்போக்குப் பிராமணர்கள் that the rest, including almost the entire tabras of today, have at least a way of survival?

"Progressive" is probably the most abused word especially in politics ever since the 'left' tried to appropriate the word for itself.

Jeyamohan here calls out those Brahmins, who indulge in Brahmin bashing akin to the dravidianists, as pretenders of being progressive. That is why he wtote "காட்டிக்கொள்ள வேண்டும்". He dismisses their arguments as totally lacking equanimity. I agree with him. He also warns that the dravidianists will indulge with them only temporarily "தற்காலமாக பாராட்டப் படுவார்கள்"; and it won't take long for tables to be turned on them. I think it is a very sane advice.

 

[vikrama]

jeyamohan on brahmins

???????????????????? ????????????

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Sir,

FYKI, this topic is being discussed in this thread, "a thoughtful post by jayamohan''

 

[Raji Ram]

The new thread is merged with this!

 

[vgane]

Badri's article has evinced huge interest..One comment under the name "guest" stood out..I am quoting this as it makes lot of sense..While the middle class Brahmins have some what made it thanks to the IT boom I am not sure about the status of the poor Brahmins who are really languishing at the bottom of the social ladder

Quote

Let us go back to early 1800s. The world population was not even a billion (India’s population was around 25 crores – I guess this includes Indian sub continent). Life expectancy in India was about 25 years (reference: google for life expectancy of india in 1800) and in 1890 it was less than 25 years. Do you want to hear one more number? India's population went down by more than 50% between 1860 and 1861 (from 29.5 crores to 13.5 crores). British were swindling wealth from India. There were famines and millions were killed. Education system at that time was not job focused. No industrial revolution yet in India. Given these circumstances, how important was education in the early 1800s? study what and what after studies? The people did not care about education in the 1800s as well as prior to 1800s....that is the truth. Prior 1800s, India was the richest country in the world...people had sufficient food and money to live happily. Prior to 1870s, mass education was not required and would have failed to attract people. When economy was very badly hit in the 1850s and beyond (Google for 1908 The New Nationalist Movement in India – read this article, heavy taxation was one of the reasons why people become poorer, salt was taxed at 30%), people had to leave their traditional jobs and look for jobs outside their domain. That is when education became important and that is where Brahmins and upper caste took advantage. Did business community train Brahmins to run a business? Did a carpenter train an agriculturalist to become a carpenter? How many people in those days shared knowledge outside their community? Due to lack of infrastructure, written material and life-expectancy, the cheapest and quickest way of transferring knowledge was to transfer that knowledge to people who are around you. So this concept of Brahmins denying education for 1000+ years is a useless argument because education was not important prior to middle of 1800s. If a king or Brahmins had forced education on people in the olden days then you would blame the Brahmins now for forcing education on people when it was not required (you need to take the population size, life expectancy, availability of jobs in to account). Brahmins should stop blaming the current governments for lack of opportunities. They should create more businesses; employ people based on merit, train the down-trodden and work towards eliminating the caste. Non-Brahmins should stop blaming the past and stop spewing hatred on the internet.


Unquote

 

[auh]

One of my supervisors was a Kamma Naidu. He got promotion every year due to special affection shown by the GM, who was an Iyengar, sidelining two Iyers who also possessed similar qualifications. He used to say he didn’t like Brahmins. Once the Naidu became GM, he started showing his colour. One day, standing in the middle of the hall, he uttered ‘PAPPANUKKU PATTATHAN THERIYUM’. No Brahmin raised his voice against him. A PSU employee in the capacity of GM made that statement.

Not even you?! :-O

He applied the same method against another community, which is steadily gaining control in Govts and PSUs. All the community employees joined and protested against him. One member even secretly recorded his utterance against the CEO in his mobile and played it to the CEO.

As he had lot of complaints, an enquiry was ordered and at the time of retirement, his benefits were stopped. There was no farewell letter. Despite putting more than 3 decades of service, his exit was painful. Only recently, he got all his benefits.

Which "paavarphul" community (or religion) was this that the name cannot be mentioned?

 

[srini234]

Badri times of india article & Jeya mohan reply

'The angst of the Tamil brahmin: Live and let live' - The Times of India

???????????????????? ???????????? - nicely written