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Brahmarakshas in Valmeeki Ramayana

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This is in reply to Smt. Palindrome's post here since that thread has been closed now.


Sangom Sir,

This query maybe connected to post # 156.

Was reading the Valmiki Ramayan and found some verses that might not go well with some. This particular one stuck me (from Sundara Kanda when Hanuman went to Lanka):
SaDaN^gavedaviduSaam kratupravarayaajinaam |
shushraava brahmaghoSaan sa viraatre brahmarakshasaam || 5-18-2
Meaning:
Hanuman heard Vedic sounds early in the morning of Brahma Rakshasas well versed in six parts of Vedas and those who performed excellent sacrifices.

Many believe brahmins arose from Devas. Or belonged to the Deva faction. Not many accept, the class of Rakshasas and Asuras also had brahmins. What are your views on that?
Smt. Palindrome,

At present the word brahmarakṣas means the prEtha or ghost of a devout, orthodox brahmin who errs in some small way from the rigors prescribed by the scriptures. Usually, astrologers and tantric books look at these brahmarakṣases as the souls of brahmins who take to sannyaasa while alive, but fail to follow the rules of sanyaasa (especially the brahmacharya part of it) and even a momentary lapse in this regard by word, deed or thought makes the departed soul of the sanyaasi into a brahmarakṣas; that is the present belief and that is one reason why our tabra elders of the previous generation never encouraged their sons to take up sannyaasa, imo.

This brahmarakṣas just does not get out of that state easily but most often such brahmarakṣases start inhabiting the idols in the sanctum sanctorum of the temples, since they consider themselves eligible for all the respects and poojas which are made to the deities themselves. This is why some of the older generation tabras studiously avoided temple visits, because going and visiting and doing poojas and archanas to an idol "infected" by brahmarakshas will only take away one's punyas, they believed. I understand that outside Kerala, this kind of belief in brahmarakṣas infecting the temple idols is practically not there and the people just don't bother. In most Kerala temples which are run on tantric basis one will find a small sanctum somewhere for brahmarakṣas and sometimes there will be many small stones resembling Shivalingas inside; each of this is a brahmarakṣas identified as having infected one worshipped idol or another of the temple, and found out in the dEvapraSna (aShTamangalya praSna) which is conducted periodically in most Kerala temples. There are prescribed procedure to get the infecting brahmarakṣas into such a stone - referred to as "ozhuku Silai" (a stone lying on the river bed smoothened by the running water).

We cannot be sure whether this was the concept regarding brahmarakṣas during valmiki's time. It appears to me that the residents of Lanka were considered to be rAkShasas and those rAkShasas who chanted aloud the vedas were sarcastically called brahmarakṣas; it is pertinent to note that even valmeeki (or the kshatriyas and vaisyas who compelled him to write the rAmAyaNa in a way suiting their ulterior motives, if we go by the pro-brahmin members of this Forum!) thought that only the brAhmins among the rAkshasa population in rAvaNa's kingdom could legitimately chant the vedas ! The hold of the brahmins in the minds of even a hunter-killer like rathnakaran is evident from the above sloka, imho.

For reference, I give below what three commentaries on the valmeeki ramayana have to say on this point:

रामकृता तिलकाख्या टीका

विरात्रॆ रात्रिविपर्यासे । अपररात्र इत्यर्थः । ब्रह्मरक्षसाम् तदेव स्पष्टीकृतम् — षडङ्गेत्यादिना ॥

रामायण शिरोमण्याख्या टीका

षडङ्गेति । षडङ्ग वेदविदुषां वेदवेदित्ॠणां अत एव क्रतुप्रवरयाजिनां ब्रह्मरक्षसां ब्राह्मण राक्षसानां ब्रह्मघोषान् वेदनिनदान् विरात्रे रात्र्यवसाने शुश्राव हनूमानिति शेषः ।

श्री गॊविन्दराजीया भूषणाख्या टीका

ब्रह्म रक्षसां ब्राह्मणत्वविशिष्टरक्षसाम् ।

(rāmakṛtā tilakākhyā ṭīkā

virātre rātriviparyāse | apararātra ityarthaḥ | brahmarakṣasām tadeva spaṣṭīkṛtam - ṣaḍaṅgetyādinā ||

rāmāyaṇa śiromaṇyākhyā ṭīkā

ṣaḍaṅgeti | ṣaḍaṅga vedaviduṣāṃ vedavedit–ṝṇāṃ ata eva kratupravarayājināṃ brahmarakṣasāṃ brāhmaṇa rākṣasānāṃ brahmaghoṣān vedaninadān virātre rātryavasāne śuśrāva hanūmāniti śeṣaḥ |

śrī govindarājīyā bhūṣaṇākhyā ṭīkā

brahma rakṣasāṃ brāhmaṇatvaviśiṣṭarakṣasām |)
 
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Thank you sir. Very informative.

Kindly clarify if this is the Smartha view? Is it the reason why they avoid temples? Would it be acceptable to Agamic view?

In Indonesia, capturing a spirit in stone was common amongst farming clans. Spirit stones called Kateda were placed around fields to protect the crop. Though a dying tradition today, some farming communities (all muslims now) still practice it. Just that instead of being called agama; it is now called ilmu where quranic verses are recited.

This point was told to me by an Indonesian farmer. Undoubtedly, illiterate and poor farmers are aware of islam prohibiting idol worship. They feel they are not committing idol worship as long as they do not venerate idols. Yet offerings are made to kateda stones (they managed to merge an agamic practice with islam, i feel, simply by substituting mantras with quranic verses). Well, as farmers they are just want to protect their crops...In pre-islamic days, Ancestral spirits captured in stone were venerated. I think in older threads we had discussed origin of temples.

Could you please post why (in your personal view) there was so much antipathy towards idol worship (in effect towards atharvans?) by trayi-vedic people?

Please also clarify the following:
At present the word brahmarakṣas means...
Did the same meaning apply in the past?

..that is the present belief and that is one reason why our tabra elders of the previous generation never encouraged their sons to take up sannyaasa, imo.
Is this a point of contention between karmakanda ritualists and gnanakanda ascetics? What is the advaitin view on this?

We cannot be sure whether this was the concept regarding brahmarakṣas during valmiki's time. It appears to me that the residents of Lanka were considered to be rAkShasas and those rAkShasas who chanted aloud the vedas were sarcastically called brahmarakṣas; it is pertinent to note that even valmeeki (or the kshatriyas and vaisyas who compelled him to write the rAmAyaNa in a way suiting their ulterior motives, if we go by the pro-brahmin members of this Forum!) thought that only the brAhmins among the rAkshasa population in rAvaNa's kingdom could legitimately chant the vedas ! The hold of the brahmins in the minds of even a hunter-killer like rathnakaran is evident from the above sloka, imho.

For reference, I give below what three commentaries on the valmeeki ramayana have to say on this point:

रामकृता तिलकाख्या टीका

विरात्रॆ रात्रिविपर्यासे । अपररात्र इत्यर्थः । ब्रह्मरक्षसाम् तदेव स्पष्टीकृतम् — षडङ्गेत्यादिना ॥

रामायण शिरोमण्याख्या टीका

षडङ्गेति । षडङ्ग वेदविदुषां वेदवेदित्ॠणां अत एव क्रतुप्रवरयाजिनां ब्रह्मरक्षसां ब्राह्मण राक्षसानां ब्रह्मघोषान् वेदनिनदान् विरात्रे रात्र्यवसाने शुश्राव हनूमानिति शेषः ।

श्री गॊविन्दराजीया भूषणाख्या टीका

ब्रह्म रक्षसां ब्राह्मणत्वविशिष्टरक्षसाम् ।

(rāmakṛtā tilakākhyā ṭīkā

virātre rātriviparyāse | apararātra ityarthaḥ | brahmarakṣasām tadeva spaṣṭīkṛtam - ṣaḍaṅgetyādinā ||

rāmāyaṇa śiromaṇyākhyā ṭīkā

ṣaḍaṅgeti | ṣaḍaṅga vedaviduṣāṃ vedavedit–ṝṇāṃ ata eva kratupravarayājināṃ brahmarakṣasāṃ brāhmaṇa rākṣasānāṃ brahmaghoṣān vedaninadān virātre rātryavasāne śuśrāva hanūmāniti śeṣaḥ |

śrī govindarājīyā bhūṣaṇākhyā ṭīkā

brahma rakṣasāṃ brāhmaṇatvaviśiṣṭarakṣasām |)
Since the brahmarakshas in Valmiki Ramayan were chanting vedas, performing sacrifices, would't it mean brahmins were also rakshasas, and thus belonged to the asura groups?

Thanks.
 
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Since the other thread is closed, am posting this point here:

KB said here:
Despite this being a brahmins forum, one do not see brahmins spewing venom on other communities. (I can show several non-brahmin blogsthat spew venom on brahmins.) There may be exceptions and even in such rare occasions it is only a reactionary effort as Sangom himself has hinted. To describe this as lack of intellect is uncharitable, to say the least, and considering Sangom himself belongs to the opposite group, his remark is quite self serving. On the other hand, one sees routine bashing of brahmins and jingoism by members not necessarily only from the brahmin community. All the talk about "we-ness" are absolute hogwash considering the very same members vociferously support govt discrimination even against the poorest of poor brahmins on all and sundry things. If this hypocrisy is deemed intellect, it is better for the brahmins to not have such intellect.


It is very-very bad on your part to imply that I support government discrimination against poorest of poor brahmins. That's a very serious personal allegation. Just because I say I support reservations, does not mean you create such a concoction.
I reserve the right to post against it.

I myself liase with temple priests (iyengars and gurukkals) on the behalf of some family members, and i find it very offensive to me, that you suggest I support government "discrimination" against them. That, to me, is very upsetting. Its hurtful.

IMO, It is morally wrong for Smarthas to use poor Agamic temple priests as an prop to claim of themselves as "poorest of poor brahmins" (please do not bring troubles upon temple priests by doing so).
Dharmashastras place temple priests in a lowly position. Temple priests were looked down upon with contempt by Smarthas even in colonial period.

IMO, the downfall of temple priests is linked to the rise of Smarthas. I still fail to understand, how suddenly Smarthas developed the image of "poorest of poor brahmins" for themselves; with hapless gurukkals and iyengars as a prop; just because they want to protest against reservations.

I have traveled to at least 150 temples in the remotest of places in interior tamilnadu over the past 6 years. Some times, we were told we are the only 'outside' visitors to the temple in over a year ! (apart from local villagers). We saw poverty everywhere. Not just among poor temple priests. In the landscape of poverty, temple priests had one thing which stood out -- a high level of respect.

We saw villagers coming to temple priests for counsel, chats on rains and good crops. This tells me, temple priests are not viewed as outsiders anywhere, be it urban or rural place. They are totally enmeshed with local issues and ways of worship. Since Agamic religion is native; it is of course, expected. Majority hindus are indeed temple worshipers; as opposed to the 'hindu' smartism.

Many industries and businesses in TN are owned by brahmins (Sanmar, Royal Enfield, Pothys, India Cements, TVS, Amalgamations (of Addison Paints, Amco batteries, Eicher Motores, Higginbothams, etc fame), TTK (which manufactures prestige pressure cookers, tantex hosiery, kohinoor condoms, kiwi shoe polish, etc), Travancore Cements, to name a few). WRT to Smarthas in urban tamilnadu, IMO, the only thing they lost is social clout (from the religion pov) and reputation. There is no loss of wealth.

AFAIK, poor amongst brahmins are very less -- and they are all temple priests. You have time and again protested in this forum against reservations -- which you think is "discrimination".

The number of forward communities is very-very less in tamilnadu; yet they get 31% seats as "open category" or "forward caste". Nobody in my family got reservations. In the past decade (esp the past 5 years), heard of a number of cases getting seats, despite coming under forward caste category. This tells me non-brahmin forward castes are better at competing and getting admissions than brahmins.

There are also cases where a child scored above cut-off marks, yet did not get admission into MBBS or BE / BTech courses. Each case happens to have its unique reasons. Such children either go to private colleges to pursue MBBS or BE; or if they cannot afford it, join BSc degree. Such people, with grit and determination, work thru MCA, or MBA or MSc or PhD. Somehow, they make a life. When non-brahmin forward castes are able to cope, I do not understand why brahmins protest against reservations.

One issue which government should address, IMO, is to increase number of seats in professional colleges so that everyone who scores above cut-off gets a seat. The poorest of poor (whether brahmin or non-brahmin) cannot afford education many times. IMO creamy layer should apply for a portion of general quota; so that open category seats go to poorest of poor amongst forward castes.

KB, time and again, i have discussed to the point, addressed the issue. But you bring in silly wisecracks, always comment on dravidianists as if everyone who disagrees with your view is a dravidianist. Now you are making untrue allegations. It is not good on your part. I believe in Karma, so it is better for you to avoid such things (this is just
a friendly request; and if unsolicited please leave it).

Addition:
It is not correct for smarthas to claim they do not spew venom on non-brahmins. The very term Shudra is a highly offensive one, which spews a great deal of venom. A simple read of dharmashastras offers a glimpse, how smarthas consider, view, describe shudras.

I have 2 requests for readers
(1) please do not use the word shudra; though you may view non-brahmins lower than you in any given form. When there are terms like non-dvija or non-brahmin, there is no need to use the term shudra.
(2) if you feel loss of reputation (due to negative comments on brahmins), please do not retaliate with negative comments in return. I
rrespective of whether landed or non-landed; everyone who arose from commoners, became landed, or moved on in life (in any form); still had to deal with smartism (at least in colonial period; if not earlier). It may be better if you show forbearance, tolerance, and ignore negative comments; by doing so, perhaps avoid adding to the karmic cycle.


 
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I am splitting Palindrome's posts in many parts and providing my reply.

Palindrome said:
KB, time and again, i have discussed to the point, addressed the issue. But you bring in silly wisecracks, always comment on dravidianists as if everyone who disagrees with your view is a dravidianist.

When the term "brahminist" is used with impunity, one cannot selectively oppose usage of the term "dravidianist". The problem here is that members who want others to view their own opinions in isolation (i.e. as an independent view) often do not give the same benefit to others. It is worthwhile to remember that silliness begets silliness.
 
Palindrome said:
It is very-very bad on your part to imply that I support government discrimination against poorest of poor brahmins. That's a very serious personal allegation. Just because I say I support reservations, does not mean you create such a concoction. I reserve the right to post against it.
I myself liase with temple priests (iyengars and gurukkals) on the behalf of some family members, and i find it very offensive to me, that you suggest I support government "discrimination" against them. That, to me, is very upsetting. Its hurtful.

First of all, this forum is just a media for exchange of opinions; here people are judged based on what they write. What anyone does outside this forum is not worth naya paisa here.

I stand by my view for it is not a concoction as Palindrome alleges. I remember clearly when I condemned govt discriminating the poorest of poor based on caste in doling out scholarships, Palindrome's reply was, and I paraphrase here, "why should govt care about brahmins?". If she does not consider caste based discrimination of poor people as "discrimination", then I can't help it that I disagree.
 
கால பைரவன்;183241 said:
First of all, this forum is just a media for exchange of opinions; here people are judged based on what they write. What anyone does outside this forum is not worth naya paisa here.

I stand by my view for it is not a concoction as Palindrome alleges. I remember clearly when I condemned govt discriminating the poorest of poor based on caste in doling out scholarships, Palindrome's reply was, and I paraphrase here, "why should govt care about brahmins?". If she does not consider caste based discrimination of poor people as "discrimination", then I can't help it that I disagree.
Where did I say such a thing? Please provide the post. I suspect you are concocting something out of context merely to allege and abuse me.


Addition: A search revealed you alleged the same thing before: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ia-republic-hate-nightmares-2.html#post176352 -- So now, I demand to know where I have said any such thing.
 
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Palindrome said:
IMO, It is morally wrong for Smarthas to use poor Agamic temple priests as an prop to claim of themselves as "poorest of poor brahmins" (please do not bring troubles upon temple priests by doing so). Dharmashastras place temple priests in a lowly position. Temple priests were looked down upon with contempt by Smarthas even in colonial period.

IMO, the downfall of temple priests is linked to the rise of Smarthas. I still fail to understand, how suddenly Smarthas developed the image of "poorest of poor brahmins" for themselves; with hapless gurukkals and iyengars as a prop; just because they want to protest against reservations.

This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post: generalization. What I write is my view. Yet this member has no problem in conflating it with the opinion of smarthas and then lectures about morality on what a smarta should be allowed to say and what should he not. But usage of the term "dravidianist" is considered unacceptable. Why should someone expect their views to be treated independently when they themselves do not follow it? To use Raju's words, caste prejudice shows up in a myriad of ways. This is a sort of disease that cannot be cured unless one makes an attempt to cure it oneself. This clever attempt to gag someone's opinion is despicable and one must be thankful the owner of this forum does not feel the same.

AFAIK, the govt discriminates against brahmins equally. It does not differentiate between smartha brahmins, brahmin priests, iyers or iyengars, any of the brahmin subsects, or the innumerable number of divisions that one may see among brahmins. Therefore this is just an attempt to curtail someone from voicing support for brahmins, whoever it may be.
 
கால பைரவன்;183243 said:
This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post: generalization. What I write is my view. Yet this member has no problem in conflating it with the opinion of smarthas and then lectures about morality on what a smarta should be allowed to say and what should he not. But usage of the term "dravidianist" is considered unacceptable. Why should someone expect their views to be treated independently when they themselves do not follow it? To use Raju's words, caste prejudice shows up in a myriad of ways. This is a sort of disease that cannot be cured unless one makes an attempt to cure it oneself. This clever attempt to gag someone's opinion is despicable and one must be thankful the owner of this forum does not feel the same.

AFAIK, the govt discriminates against brahmins equally. It does not differentiate between smartha brahmins, brahmin priests, iyers or iyengars, any of the brahmin subsects, or the innumerable number of divisions that one may see among brahmins. Therefore this is just an attempt to curtail someone from voicing support for brahmins, whoever it may be.
I offered my opinion. Am nobody to "lecture" anyone, let alone "what a smartha should be allowed to say". When did I say "dravidianist" is unacceptable. I said frequent usage of the term "dravidianist" adds no value to your post; plus it does not mean anyone who disagrees with you is a dravidianist. If you want to use the term, who am I to stop you? Plus you bring in Raju's words; and the owner of the forum, in the wrong context that you do. Kalabhairava, You are making more and more allegations. Mark my words, someday you will find karmic cycle never misses its mark.
 
Where did I say such a thing? Please provide the post. I suspect you are concocting something out of context merely to allege and abuse me.


Addition: A search revealed you alleged the same thing before: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ia-republic-hate-nightmares-2.html#post176352 -- So now, I demand to know where I have said any such thing.

I was going through the threads in which I participated earlier. I found one here, in which there was a discussion on govt scheme of providing subsidized loans where it discriminates poor brahmins (FCs but that includes all brahmins):

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7105-brahmin-nb-girls.html

You can go through this. Of course, then your opinion was that there are no poor brahmins.

There is no reason for me to abuse you, Palindrome. I said I paraphrased what you wrote and reading the thread again does not make me change my view.
 
கால பைரவன்;183246 said:
I was going through the threads in which I participated earlier. I found one here, in which there was a discussion on govt scheme of providing subsidized loans where it discriminates poor brahmins (FCs but that includes all brahmins):

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7105-brahmin-nb-girls.html

You can go through this. Of course, then your opinion was that there are no poor brahmins.

There is no reason for me to abuse you, Palindrome. I said I paraphrased what you wrote and reading the thread again does not make me change my view.
Am bothered about certain readers of the forum. I do not care what you think. Prove the exact post please.

Am providing relevant posts for readers from that thread -- Let readers go thru themselves and decide:
1) http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7105-brahmin-nb-girls-3.html#post94814
2) http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7105-brahmin-nb-girls-4.html#post94833
3) http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7105-brahmin-nb-girls-4.html#post94844

Kalabhairava, this is not the first time you are alleging untruths or have had a problem understanding context. When you run out of content; your posts end in allegations and untruths. You have always been a pot shot specialist: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7318-wikipedia-article-about-kerala-iyers-14.html (for new readers, the whole thread is worthwhile going thru).

Again, mark my words Kalabhairava, people like you will bring the downfall of the ones you represent.
 
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Funnily enough, a person who requested others not to worry about "reputation" is worried about hers!

I have linked the thread. It is not difficult to find the relevant posts. I already said I paraphrased and so if one is looking for the exact same words, I can't help it. My post is #14 on the thread and palindrome's reply is # 18 (curiously this shows as an edited post. I am sure the last sentence of that post read equivalent to what I paraphrased before it got edited). Like I said before, there is no reason for me to abuse Palindrome as she alleges. One can follow the rest of the discussions from thereon. The fact still remains. The govt scheme discriminates against poor brahmins. There are three members who justified that discrimination and Palindrome is one of them.

Let the readers, especially those whom Palindrome is concerned about, make their own judgements.
 
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Ha! Ha! This kind of curses will only rebound with sahasra fold vigour. I have only one question. Is palindrome and happyhindu same? At least the style points congruence!

Again, mark my words Kalabhairava, people like you will bring the downfall of the ones you represent.
 
கால பைரவன்;183248 said:
Funnily enough, a person who requested others not to worry about "reputation" is worried about hers!

I have linked the thread. It is not difficult to find the relevant posts. I already said I paraphrased and so if one is looking for the exact same words, I can't help it. My post is #14 on the thread and palindrome's reply is # 18 (curiously this shows as an edited post. I am sure the last sentence of that post read equivalent to what I paraphrased before it got edited). Like I said before, there is no reason for me to abuse Palindrome as she alleges. One can follow the rest of the discussions from thereon. The fact still remains. The govt scheme discriminates against poor brahmins. There are three members who justified that discrimination and Palindrome is one of them.

Let the readers, especially those whom Palindrome is concerned about, make their own judgements.
Kalabhairava said: "Palindrome's reply was, and I paraphrase here, "why should govt care about brahmins?".

The post # 18 is here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7105-brahmin-nb-girls-2.html#post94788
Nowhere did I say government should not care about poor brahmins. Nor did I justify it. The context of my opinions is evident in the preceding and subsequent posts of that thread. And yes, I still think the government cannot be expected to do anything about brahmins. IMO, as long as Smartism remains an infection in society, the worst affected, ie., the poor temple priests will remain trapped and helpless. After all, their down-gradation started way back in manusmrithi.

Kalabhairava, you have your time and your pot-shots today. Wait for tomorrow. The day is not far when your lot will be forced (mark my words "forced") to apologize, not by NBs, but by temple priests. Try as you might, the karmic journey of the people you represent has not yet begun.

From my end, there is nothing more to add, in content or in opinion, in the context of Kalabhairava's posts.. Kalabhairava', since as always your posts end in pot-shots, untruths, allegations; I leave you to make the finishing posts.
 
Ha! Ha! This kind of curses will only rebound with sahasra fold vigour. I have only one question. Is palindrome and happyhindu same? At least the style points congruence!
We shall see, Sarang. Its collective karma. It takes time to unfold. Lets wait and watch.
 
This topic is now closed. While it is ok to discuss heavily on various aspects, it is not ok when it veers more towards a you vs me fight. Since like the other topic (Let us reclaim our rights) this also seemingly going towards that side, i have no other choice other than to close it.

Healthy debates (however heated it might be) are allowed. But debates that more and more seem like "lets see who is right and who is wrong" or "you said this there but you are saying something here" will not be entertained.

Topic closed. Thank you.
 
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