Caste Census Vote

[Vija]

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I have seen many postings expressing both hope and despair at the Caste based Census. People who said that they are against it have no other option now getting themselves enumerated on caste for Union Cabinet has now decided for it. But I feel that Brahmins can find a solution to their problem taking this as an opportunity. THAMBRAS and other bodies like this forum should now take the responsibility of Guiding the Brahmins in getting themselves enumerated.

It is my feeling that Brahmins may be approached by other communities that desires to show themselves fat for getting higher percentage of reservation after seeing this poll. Therefore it is really a big opportunity.

 

[Harini]

Does this mean that I can enumerate myself the way I like? Will they accept if I say my religion as Brahmin?

I think such practical problems will drag Caste based Census and therefore will never happen in our life time. Only such problems should have forced or leaders to abandon such practices in the pretext of Socialism.

I have seen many postings expressing both hope and despair at the Caste based Census. People who said that they are against it have no other option now getting themselves enumerated on caste for Union Cabinet has now decided for it. But I feel that Brahmins can find a solution to their problem taking this as an opportunity. THAMBRAS and other bodies like this forum should now take the responsibility of Guiding the Brahmins in getting themselves enumerated.

It is my feeling that Brahmins may be approached by other communities that desires to show themselves fat for getting higher percentage of reservation after seeing this poll. Therefore it is really a big opportunity.

 

[happyhindu]

When the census comes knocking, my parents are going to choose Hindu as religion and Indian as caste. Anyways neither of them has a caste certificate. They are 2 old ppl; and am sure the census will not bother 2 old people wrt such things.

 

[sangom]

I think up to some point of time, the S.S.L.C gave the religion as well as caste, I don't remember though. The enumerators will be local people and will have familiarity with the locality, the people, etc. Unless the census provides for a category like "no caste" or "caste unknown", it will be legally compulsory to give all the information to the census enumerator/s and failure to do this will entail punishment which includes imprisonment. So, if anyone knows his/her caste he/she will have to declare it truly.

 

[kunjuppu]

it is interesting, while india is going the route of more personal individual certain countries are going the other way.

canada has detailed questions, to only random 10% of the population. for the coming census even this was done away by the government. this made the statistics commissioner (election head honcho), incidentally from south asia, named farouk shaikh, quit his job, amidst publicity.

faroukh's arguements were that certain personal data was needed to plan ahead public services. unless we knew demographic, education, racial and other details, we do not have a clue of the society we are living and how to plan ahead - to locate schools, old age homes, new communities and what not.

the newspapers and society is evenly split over faroukh's stand. majority of canadians would want nothing to do with the government re giving out info, but want govt help for just about anything

britain too i heard, is planning to do away with the census, as its government finds the data 'useless'.

 

[RKB]

Truth is a tricky thing. Whatever IAS officer Umashankar say should be believed as truth for he may also believe it as truth. A family I know has a Iyer girl married to mudaliar as second marriage. the girl is a widow now and her only son is with their grandparents and they have performed Upanayanam to him. The grandfather is a Iyer and the grandmother is an iyengar. Such a family would definitely had Dalith as their ancestor at least couple of times in the past. What is truth here. What is the proof that a Dalith did not had a Kshatriya, Vysya or Brahmin as their ancestor at least couple of times in the past. Legally imprisonment is not possible if one showed conviction in their belief. But if the intent of the Government is to dessicate Brahmins, they can do so. Then the imprisonment can only mean as a duty for this nation for fighting an evil Government.

I think up to some point of time, the S.S.L.C gave the religion as well as caste, I don't remember though. The enumerators will be local people and will have familiarity with the locality, the people, etc. Unless the census provides for a category like "no caste" or "caste unknown", it will be legally compulsory to give all the information to the census enumerator/s and failure to do this will entail punishment which includes imprisonment. So, if anyone knows his/her caste he/she will have to declare it truly.

 

[RKB]

Sir, many now are happy hindus for they were in a position to vacillate easily on their caste with government certificates. I think the Census will take a turn when the Government itself will say that it will not accept these certificates as proof. But I don't think that none of those indulged in purchasing caste certificates will be victimized and so happiness will continue.

When the census comes knocking, my parents are going to choose Hindu as religion and Indian as caste. Anyways neither of them has a caste certificate. They are 2 old ppl; and am sure the census will not bother 2 old people wrt such things.

 

[sangom]

Truth is a tricky thing. Whatever IAS officer Umashankar say should be believed as truth for he may also believe it as truth. A family I know has a Iyer girl married to mudaliar as second marriage. the girl is a widow now and her only son is with their grandparents and they have performed Upanayanam to him. The grandfather is a Iyer and the grandmother is an iyengar. Such a family would definitely had Dalith as their ancestor at least couple of times in the past. What is truth here.

Shri RKB,

I think it is not what Umashankar IAS tells or believes as truth which is of relevance but the documentary evidence which he has produced. He was admitted to school as "Christian Pallar" by his mother but his father changed it to Hindu, after following the legal formalities (and Pallar must have remained, I presume). Since there is no doubt about his father having been a Hindu, it follows that his claim of being a Hindu and Pallar is valid.

I don't understand why the family cited by you "would definitely had Dalith as their ancestor at least couple of times in the past". If the grandparents are Iyer and Iyengar, does it necessarily follow that there should have been minimum two dalits in the lineage? Pl. elucidate your theory.

What is the proof that a Dalith did not had a Kshatriya, Vysya or Brahmin as their ancestor at least couple of times in the past.

Nobody disputes the possibility of higher castes' genes in the lineage of any dalit. But since that was not accepted in the past and all of them were looked upon and treated as dalits, and since the hindu system does not afford them a chance to cahnge their caste to Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaisya, according to their option, the argument put forward by you does not stand the scrutiny of law.

Legally imprisonment is not possible if one showed conviction in their belief. But if the intent of the Government is to dessicate Brahmins, they can do so. Then the imprisonment can only mean as a duty for this nation for fighting an evil Government.

Imprisonment will follow if one shows a conviction contrary to the position established by valid evidence/s, documentary and others. If both conviction and evidence coincide, then there will be no problem.

 

[happyhindu]

Sir, many now are happy hindus for they were in a position to vacillate easily on their caste with government certificates. I think the Census will take a turn when the Government itself will say that it will not accept these certificates as proof. But I don't think that none of those indulged in purchasing caste certificates will be victimized and so happiness will continue.

Am not sure what purpose this census is going to serve.

But i think some reasons might be:
1) preventing people from getting fake certificates
2) checking how much people of a particular caste have progressed (esp wrt dalits)
3) making relevant decisions based on #2 about reservations, and other benefits given to dalits.

I think those who availed fake caste certificates will definitely be in trouble - they may even be imprisoned.

Fake caste certificates is defintely a big issue. Someone was telling me that practically everyone he knows in Orissa has a SC / ST certificate, including brahmins. It is so easy to pay bribes and get such certificates there. Infact a namesake (fake) conversion into christianity helps a lot in getting such certificates there. Dunno how much of such hearsay is true.

In Karnataka too, one can get fake caste certificates by paying bribes. I know someone who did.

In Tamilnadu i heard bribery does not help anymore and it is very difficult to get a fake caste certificate. But about 15 years back, i know someone who did get a fake caste certificate in tamilnadu.

Me thinks this whole caste census will somehow end up as a political gimmick; instead of serving any true purpose for dalit upliftment..

Wonder if the government will take various caste combinations into consideration...methinks manu himself must have apparently run out of names for various combinations: http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/tree/21/pplmanu.htm

Regards.

 

[RKB]

If you do not dispute possibility of higher caste genes with Daliths (but you are telling new possibilities in genetics!) then that is the proof to the theory that you are looking for. If Umashankar can claim one Religion for belief and one for legal purposes, what prevented you from making same claim. Tell the enumerator that you want to be enumerated with dual religion and get done with what you want. Every title like Brahmin, Mudaliar etc were also assumed by some groups at some part of time. You also have an opportunity assume whatever you want with the Census. If people say Conversion as taboo, the same people will accept if you assumed the title and played your role. So you also enumerate yourself as Pallar and say that you believe so. May be you can also take support from Genetics for a proof.

Shri RKB,

I think it is not what Umashankar IAS tells or believes as truth which is of relevance but the documentary evidence which he has produced. He was admitted to school as "Christian Pallar" by his mother but his father changed it to Hindu, after following the legal formalities (and Pallar must have remained, I presume). Since there is no doubt about his father having been a Hindu, it follows that his claim of being a Hindu and Pallar is valid.

I don't understand why the family cited by you "would definitely had Dalith as their ancestor at least couple of times in the past". If the grandparents are Iyer and Iyengar, does it necessarily follow that there should have been minimum two dalits in the lineage? Pl. elucidate your theory.

Nobody disputes the possibility of higher castes' genes in the lineage of any dalit. But since that was not accepted in the past and all of them were looked upon and treated as dalits, and since the hindu system does not afford them a chance to cahnge their caste to Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaisya, according to their option, the argument put forward by you does not stand the scrutiny of law.

Imprisonment will follow if one shows a conviction contrary to the position established by valid evidence/s, documentary and others. If both conviction and evidence coincide, then there will be no problem.

 

[RKB]

With Census the Government will have the same advantage that the Britishers had with enumeration. They will also do the same thing the Britishers did - 'Divide and Rule'. Rest of the thing that you imagine can happen even without Census, if the Government intended so.

Am not sure what purpose this census is going to serve.

But i think some reasons might be:
1) preventing people from getting fake certificates
2) checking how much people of a particular caste have progressed (esp wrt dalits)
3) making relevant decisions based on #2 about reservations, and other benefits given to dalits.

I think those who availed fake caste certificates will definitely be in trouble - they may even be imprisoned.

Fake caste certificates is defintely a big issue. Someone was telling me that practically everyone he knows in Orissa has a SC / ST certificate, including brahmins. It is so easy to pay bribes and get such certificates there. Infact a namesake (fake) conversion into christianity helps a lot in getting such certificates there. Dunno how much of such hearsay is true.

In Karnataka too, one can get fake caste certificates by paying bribes. I know someone who did.

In Tamilnadu i heard bribery does not help anymore and it is very difficult to get a fake caste certificate. But about 15 years back, i know someone who did get a fake caste certificate in tamilnadu.

Me thinks this whole caste census will somehow end up as a political gimmick; instead of serving any true purpose for dalit upliftment..

Wonder if the government will take various caste combinations into consideration...methinks manu himself must have apparently run out of names for various combinations: http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/tree/21/pplmanu.htm

Regards.

 

[Brahmanyan]

I feel the options given for selecting the answers for the "Caste census vote" are inadequate. For instance I am born to Brahmin (Varna) Parents of Tamil Smartha Vadama linage belonging to Bharadwaja Gothra, I do not know my Caste and I am yet to know the definition of the word Hindu.
Regards,
Brahmanyan

 

[sangom]

Am not sure what purpose this census is going to serve.

But i think some reasons might be:
1) preventing people from getting fake certificates
2) checking how much people of a particular caste have progressed (esp wrt dalits)
3) making relevant decisions based on #2 about reservations, and other benefits given to dalits.

I think those who availed fake caste certificates will definitely be in trouble - they may even be imprisoned.

Dear HappyHindu,

AFAIK the caste-census idea came because in the BiMaRu states, Mayawati's BSP is making large inroads into the erstwhile votebanks of Congress, Samajvadi Party (Mulayam Singh), RJD, JD (U),etc., all of whom have been sharing the OBC/MBC/Dalit votes. So, GOI wanted to know the relative strengths of these categories in each electorate now so that they can redraft their future plans to wean away the BSP's following, and bring that, as far as possible, under the congress umbrella. The EVM (electronic voting machine) may have to be abandoned sooner or later because it has become suspect now.

 

[Vija]

There are in fact infinite options possible. But the idea is to check the mood of Brahmins on this. You are Hindu as per our Constitution. Hinduism has got innumerable definition of convenience. That is the reason for your confusion also.
Most probably you will be listed as Hindu for Religion and Brahman for Caste, if there is no provision given to you to dispute. If your mood is to dispute, check whether you can agree for the last option. I have provided it it as a sort of 'disputed but most agreeable' option.

I feel the options given for selecting the answers for the "Caste census vote" are inadequate. For instance I am born to Brahmin (Varna) Parents of Tamil Smartha Vadama linage belonging to Bharadwaja Gothra, I do not know my Caste and I am yet to know the definition of the word Hindu.
Regards,
Brahmanyan

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

one can find out his or her religion and caste from the sslc book front page, generally it will be marked there.

 

[RKB]

Simple sir. Say you have not cleared SSLC. Show conviction for your cause.

My granddaughter's Dance master, who in fact is related to the ruling family has one name for SSLC book and is working in a Government Job with another name. There was another case in which one of my client was arrested under civil rights act for calling his colleague by his caste. On investigation we found that two of the complainant's daughters are studying in a private engineering college declaring themselves as OBC when this man has declared himself as 'Scheduled' in his office. This helped to get my client out of prison by an out of court arrangement. On humanitarian ground we did this in order not to disturb the education of the girls. What that SSLC book record mean is nothing.

one can find out his or her religion and caste from the sslc book front page, generally it will be marked there.

 

[happyhindu]

one can find out his or her religion and caste from the sslc book front page, generally it will be marked there.

i do not think it was followed in all states of india in the 1950s and 1960s.

it was not followed by all vernaculer-medium schools like telugu medium schools in tamilnadu in the past either.

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

Simple sir. Say you have not cleared SSLC. Show conviction for your cause.

My granddaughter's Dance master, who in fact is related to the ruling family has one name for SSLC book and is working in a Government Job with another name. There was another case in which one of my client was arrested under civil rights act for calling his colleague by his caste. On investigation we found that two of the complainant's daughters are studying in a private engineering college declaring themselves as OBC when this man has declared himself as 'Scheduled' in his office. This helped to get my client out of prison by an out of court arrangement. On humanitarian ground we did this in order not to disturb the education of the girls. What that SSLC book record mean is nothing.

Dear sri Rkb sir,
Complements for your findings.

i hope you are from kerala, if so just ask some body to cross check the details of a sslc book. i am not telling it is like passport or ration card as govt record and proof. i have mentioned the availabilty of details pertains to ones cast and religion that is all about.

i don`t understand that if any one forges or fakes his identity and getting seat in colleges and gets govt service. is good ?. snatching some ones life....


all the best

 

[suresoo]

Am not sure what purpose this census is going to serve.
But i think some reasons might be:
1) preventing people from getting fake certificates
2) checking how much people of a particular caste have progressed (esp wrt dalits)
3) making relevant decisions based on #2 about reservations, and other benefits given to dalits.

I think those who availed fake caste certificates will definitely be in trouble - they may even be imprisoned.

Dear HH,
The current census procedure states here
1) All information collected under the Census is confidential and will not be shared with any agency - Government or private.
2) The enumerator will take down all particulars as given by you. You are not required to show any proof. However, be cautioned that it is expected that you will provide correct and authentic information. You are also signing to this effect. The provision of false information can invite penalties under the Census and Citizenship Acts.

So other agencies cannot prosecute a person based on the information given to census Dept. Census Dept alone can bring up a case for incorrect information.

I also think its a political exercise to identify the population density of the caste in the region. So that parties can file suitable candidates.
We are not getting rid of the caste system anytime soon.
If someone is curious to know how Manu looked like, one has to look at our political class today !!

thanks,

 

[RKB]

I am a very old Mylapaore Brahmin and my ancestors from Rasipuram. So I am very much a TB. But don't assign something to Kerala or Daliths thinking that you become smart by it. To the enumerator you just act as per your conscience. My suggestions are for those who just want to legally escape from being dumped as Brahmin but are Brahmins by faith.

If somebody cross checks it will become an issue. You should be bold enough to defend what you feel as right for you.

Dear sri Rkb sir,
Complements for your findings.

i hope you are from kerala, if so just ask some body to cross check the details of a sslc book. i am not telling it is like passport or ration card as govt record and proof. i have mentioned the availabilty of details pertains to ones cast and religion that is all about.

i don`t understand that if any one forges or fakes his identity and getting seat in colleges and gets govt service. is good ?. snatching some ones life....


all the best

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

I am a very old Mylapaore Brahmin and my ancestors from Rasipuram. So I am very much a TB. But don't assign something to Kerala or Daliths thinking that you become smart by it. To the enumerator you just act as per your conscience. My suggestions are for those who just want to legally escape from being dumped as Brahmin but are Brahmins by faith.

If somebody cross checks it will become an issue. You should be bold enough to defend what you feel as right for you.

Dear RKB Sir,

Thanks for the reply sir.
I am also a TB born in Trichy, brought up in kerala .

There is no deliberate intension or benefit in assigning some thing to kerala. and
I think there is no harm in thinking for well being of all daliths(huge money being spent by our Govt /or going to some ones pocket with out any result.) (there are also many Brahmin daliths around us, they also need some attention)

There may be in some states, practice of marking ones religion and caste in school records.(kerala sslc book) That point only I wish to show in my earlier post.

And it is the enumerator’s job to assign and mark correctly; more over they may have some parameters to analys the data’s what we are giving and they can also do a lot of mistakes too.
If any one marked as a particular caste, will it become a govt. record to acquire benefits form govt. bodies?

Any how, we have to say only truth to the questionnaire. to get a flaw less record.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Having accepted reservation on Caste Basis the Caste Census has become an unwanted necessity. By ordering Caste Census the Government has knowingly opened up the Pandora's box. The sample of the evil was the one that we just saw in Haryana recently. This is not going to end here, instead the census results will be the beginning of more Caste based movements in Our Country.This will perpetuate the hold of Caste based Politics in India.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HappyHindu,

AFAIK the caste-census idea came because in the BiMaRu states, Mayawati's BSP is making large inroads into the erstwhile votebanks of Congress, Samajvadi Party (Mulayam Singh), RJD, JD (U),etc., all of whom have been sharing the OBC/MBC/Dalit votes. So, GOI wanted to know the relative strengths of these categories in each electorate now so that they can redraft their future plans to wean away the BSP's following, and bring that, as far as possible, under the congress umbrella. The EVM (electronic voting machine) may have to be abandoned sooner or later because it has become suspect now.

Dear HH,
The current census procedure states here
1) All information collected under the Census is confidential and will not be shared with any agency - Government or private.
2) The enumerator will take down all particulars as given by you. You are not required to show any proof. However, be cautioned that it is expected that you will provide correct and authentic information. You are also signing to this effect. The provision of false information can invite penalties under the Census and Citizenship Acts.

So other agencies cannot prosecute a person based on the information given to census Dept. Census Dept alone can bring up a case for incorrect information.

I also think its a political exercise to identify the population density of the caste in the region. So that parties can file suitable candidates.
We are not getting rid of the caste system anytime soon.
If someone is curious to know how Manu looked like, one has to look at our political class today !!

thanks,

hmmm...got it...no wonder the parliament approved caste census....how will politicians ever approve something that will not benefit them or their vote-bank planning strategies...so it is all a political ploy afterall..

 

[RKB]

Though Caste based census can help politicians in caste based vote count politics, that alone cannot be the intention of the Parliament and SC in suggesting it. There are many positive dimension to it and so it has to be carried out. But it is not going to be end of all our problems. A lot of experimentation will now happen as to what democracy can do in demography like India.

Brahmins run away from India fearing that they have been reduced to abysmal minority here. This only proves that the democracy has not worked for us. Therefore corrections are required and the count may reveal as to what it could be. It is time for Brahmin leaders to introspect and that is what is happening in this forum.

hmmm...got it...no wonder the parliament approved caste census....how will politicians ever approve something that will not benefit them or their vote-bank planning strategies...so it is all a political ploy afterall..

 

[RKB]

I am waiting for responses to my post.