Churches are turning into temples

[vgane]

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The Gujaratis are in the forefront of being the Hindu evangelists be it at Social, Political or Religious level. Gujarat has taken the giant leap in leaving its footprints on all fronts.

Admired this story. How did this happen in Gujarat?

Source:Times of India


Churches are turning into temples in UK and US!
Bharat Yagnik, TNN | Jun 29, 2012, 03.11AM IST


AHMEDABAD: Next month, a Swaminarayan temple will be thrown open to devotees in Los Angeles, California. While there are many Hindu shrines the world over, a majority of them built by global Gujaratis, the consecration scheduled on July 22 is special. For, this abode of Lord Swaminarayan was once a run-down church.

The 80-year-old church was acquired for $1.3 million by Swaminarayan Maninagar Gaadi Sansthan (SMGS) last year.

SMGS has acquired five such old churches in Canada, the US and the UK. A fortnight ago, the sect acquired a 121-year-old heritage church building in Toronto, Canada for $1.6 million. While the building is now being converted into a temple-ashram, SMGS plans to retain carvings and glass paintings which are of great heritage value.

"The idol installation at the California temple will take place in the inspiring presence of Gaadipati Purshottam Pridasji Maharaj," said Bhagwati Priyadasji of SMGS. Gujaratis constitute one of the largest immigrant communities and the growing number of Swaminarayan temples all over the world only underline the financial clout of the community. The SMGS has 12 temples abroad. Most of the churches acquired are situated in prime areas and in a run-down condition.

Bhagwat Priyadasji said a 40-yearold church spread over three acres in Dalas, Texas, was acquired for $700,000 just a month ago. The trend started in the UK in 1982 when St Ninian's Church was bought for 200,000 pounds and a temple built on the 2.5 acre compound.

In 1998, when a 70-year-old church in Bolton was bought and turned into a temple, the glass paintings which had images of Jesus Christ and Mother Mary were retained. "People from different faiths visit this temple," says Mahesh Varsani, trustee of Swaminarayan Temple Trust in the UK.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. vgane sir,
Welcome back.

The Swaminarayan groups (yes they too divided, BAPS, ) do not have Caste barriers among them. They all work (volunteer) for the Central organization. It is a vertical organization and people do not question the organization. The Central organization is well funded and does not have to cajole its members for funds.
When members travel to other cities, the local chapter takes care of them. In the Delhi Akshardham they have beautiful facility for lodging (very nominal price). Yes there is a lot that others can learn from that group.
Even 3rd and 4th generation PIO (person of Indian Origin) take active part. That way the India way is kept alive in foreign countries.

Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Prasadji, Vganeji

As a founder-member of a Committee [that I founded in 1977], we have come a long long way in
constructing 3 new Raja Gopurams, renovations and performing 5 Kumbabishekams in a
"Paadal Petra Sthalam" - Arulmigu Marundeeswarar Thirukkoil, Thiruvanmiyur, Chennai.

The main reason why Gujarat and Gujaratis are a "head ahead" is because of no Governmental
interference. We have struggled to get files moving and cleared in the Endowment Board.

The Hindu Religious & Charitable Endowments Dept [ HR & CE ] controls and administers over 38,000
Temples in Tamil Nadu. TN, you has been ruled by Dravidian parties [since 1967] that have rationalist
leanings. Even the appointments of Trustees [ Arangavalars ] goes only to party functionaries.

The HR & CE [ headed by a Commissioner - IAS Officer ], functions like any other typical Govt Dept., under
Commercial Taxes & Religious Endowments [ CT & RE ] with staff being selected through TNPSC and getting their departmental postings and promotions, with passage of time and can rise to the level of Deputy Commissioner.
HR & CE appoints Executive Officers for Temples based upon their revenue - Asst. Commissioner / Deputy Commissioner.

Everything that ails any Govt Dept also infects the HR & CE and these inherent ills percolate down the
hierarchy - down to the last sweeper / watchman. Staff so appointed by the TNPSC enjoy parity with
staff of other Govt. Depts - secure jobs, regular promotions, OT, LTC etc.
For such staff recruited by the TNPSC, a temple is a place or work, where they get their remuneration
- not a place of worship - such staff even get posted for election duty and census duty.

One has to get a G.O. [ Govt. Order] for any work to be carried-out. Papers have to be put up through
the Arangavalr Kuzhu, endorsed by the E.O., and then carried by Tapal to HR & CE, where our proposal
may or may not find a place on the "Agenda" for months.

There have been many representations from various groups to get the Temples out of Govt control and
hand them back to Mutts and Adheenams. But with certain recent happenings, these calls have been
subdued - if not muted altogether.

Handing over to Corporate Organisations is an option - the TVS Group, by themselves manage a set
of Temples - known as Nava Tirupathi.

Gujarat and Gujaratis will have the upper hand over TN, until Temples and their legacies stays in
Govt Control.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[mahakavi]

The HR & CE control affects only existing temples. Most people (orthodox religious people anyway) agonize that they do a poor job. One such group is fighting a hard battle in trying to steer the function in the right direction at the Srirangam temple. Read about it here:
Sri Vaishnava Sri

What if some new temples are constructed with private funds and managed by a committe? Will the HR & CE butt in?

 

[sudeshwer]

Delhi Akshardham temple is very near to our house. this temple is the biggest in the world of Sri Swaminarayan group. I saw itcoming up fully. Govt. tried their best to stop. It was started when BJP Govt was at the center. I go often there. here in USA also I have gone number of Swaminarayan temples. They are very dedicated and have tonnes of money. In TN, less said is better. DMK Govt. looted many many temples. there is a place called Thiruvalanzhue near my native place Kmbakonam. when I was schooling I used to play on many pillars etc. after few decades I went and could not find any pillars. when I checked I was told that all have gone out of India not only pillars but also vigragams, statues etc etc. I understand that Kanchi Mutt started doing some punarudranam. Govt interfearance is so much nothing can be achieved in TN. sorry

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Mahakavi Ji

Yes, the HR & CE will but in, once they smell 'revenue' . The Ashta Lakshmi Temple on the Besan Nagar
which was built, maintained and managed by the TTK family is one such glaring example - "The Notice"
has been served on the Management.

If anyone has noticed, the cleanliness and general atmosphere of the Vadapalani Temple has
improved tremendously. This is because HR&CE handed over the management to Saravana Bhavan Group.
Revenues from properties of Vadapalani though, go directly to HR&CE.

The very fact that Temples have been brought under CT&RE Dept, indicates that TN Govt views them
as 'revenue points' - (sorry for the comparison), like a TASMAC outlet.

As a Committee member for so many years and having borne the brunt of HR&CE's snubs and insults on many occasions,
I can tell you that the very purpose of the HR & CE Act has been defeated.

It was brought in to do away with Hereditary System of Trustees, who behaved like drunk, power sot princes -
They claimed ownership of large tracts of land, troves of treasures made to the Temple Deities and it was a Feudal system - somewhat similar to the Landlords of medieval Europe.

The renaissance that occurred here though, was in the form of Regional Parties with rationalist/atheist leanings
coming to power, and dragging the Temples into the abyss of politics and corruption.

All of it may not be because of Govt interference - it's the 'Vattams','Maavattams' 'Thunai Maavattams' and
'Udhavi Thunai Maavattams' of the Party cadres who are the beneficiaries .

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[sarang]

"In Shree Swaminarayan Sampradaya the Shikshapatri holds a position that is as important as the Gita throughout Hinduism. Two great characters Shri Krishna and Arjuna take charge of our mind and memory as soon as we hear the word “Gita.”"

shree swaminarayan acccepts varnasrama dharma, and in slokas 41 to 45 says that the four varnas must practise their dharma even after becoming his disciple. They must wear their forehead marks and follow their customs and respect their gurus.

Our minds have been poisoned by the western interpretation of varna and jati converted into the term caste. If all varnas follow their special dharma and the samanya dharma common to all, as explained by kanchi periyavar, most of the friction and misunderstanding will go away.

All acharyas of all sects in sanatana dharma fold accepted the different duties and responsibilities; mutually beneficial coexistence does not necessarily mean abolish varnas and jatis.

do not have Caste barriers among them.

 

[mahakavi]

.......
Our minds have been poisoned by the western interpretation of varna and jati converted into the term caste. If all varnas follow their special dharma and the samanya dharma common to all, as explained by kanchi periyavar, most of the friction and misunderstanding will go away.

All acharyas of all sects in sanatana dharma fold accepted the different duties and responsibilities; mutually beneficial coexistence does not necessarily mean abolish varnas and jatis.

Two points.
1. The varNAshrama dharma was instituted way back in ancient times in order to optimize the efficiency of the skills learned by people in various sectors. It implies that once you do a certain job repeatedly you become an expert in that and do the best job that no one else can do. But the pity is that it locked people into cells and became more or less a slavery out of which there was no escape. For example if the son of a blacksmith did not want to be a blacksmith but wanted to learn and teach scriptures he was prevented from doing so. That was the drawback. In that respect it had negative connotations when you view it from our current perspective.
2. Even when the so-called varNAsHrama dharma (which does not exist anymore) is wiped out from the books, the caste system will not go away. It is like neighborhoods, subdivisions, cities, districts etc., within a particular region. Each group tries to preserve its own characteristics. In ThamizhnADu alone there are over 4000 castes with unique identities of their own. There won't be marriage alliances within two sub-groups of the tEvar community for instance. Castes are like mini-religions. There is almost undeclared warfare among them. In my view castes cannot be abolished. When the kazhakam people promote inter-caste marriages they almost always mean alliance from a so-called "lower" caste with a "higher" caste. But they will not/cannot do anything about mayhem and murder perpetrated when two people of nearly similar castes want to marry.

 

[prasad1]

Two points.
1. The varNAshrama dharma was instituted way back in ancient times in order to optimize the efficiency of the skills learned by people in various sectors. It implies that once you do a certain job repeatedly you become an expert in that and do the best job that no one else can do. But the pity is that it locked people into cells and became more or less a slavery out of which there was no escape. For example if the son of a blacksmith did not want to be a blacksmith but wanted to learn and teach scriptures he was prevented from doing so. That was the drawback. In that respect it had negative connotations when you view it from our current perspective.
2. Even when the so-called varNAsHrama dharma (which does not exist anymore) is wiped out from the books, the caste system will not go away. It is like neighborhoods, subdivisions, cities, districts etc., within a particular region. Each group tries to preserve its own characteristics. In ThamizhnADu alone there are over 4000 castes with unique identities of their own. There won't be marriage alliances within two sub-groups of the tEvar community for instance. Castes are like mini-religions. There is almost undeclared warfare among them. In my view castes cannot be abolished. When the kazhakam people promote inter-caste marriages they almost always mean alliance from a so-called "lower" caste with a "higher" caste. But they will not/cannot do anything about mayhem and murder perpetrated when two people of nearly similar castes want to marry.

You are right,
Accepting Vanashram and enforcing it in the ancient form are two different things, post#8 is cynically misleading.
Swaminarayan group does not discriminate anyone on the basis of their birth caste. They do nor limit the potential of its members to their birth caste. Actually they do not even ask for caste when joining the members. So I do not understand the meaning of them accepting Varnashram. At least they do not tell a brahmin that he can not succeed in business, nor do they score the achievements of their members as 8 for baniya and rest of India 2.

 

[mahakavi]

You are right,
Accepting Vanashram and enforcing it in the ancient form are two different things, post#8 is cynically misleading.
Swaminarayan group does not discriminate anyone on the basis of their birth caste. They do nor limit the potential of its members to their birth caste. Actually they do not even ask for caste when joining the members. So I do not understand the meaning of them accepting Varnashram. At least they do not tell a brahmin that he can not succeed in business, nor do they score the achievements of their members as 8 for baniya and rest of India 2.

Post #8 is mine. Is it misleading?
On a separate note isn't the Swaminarayn group primarily a business class (baniya/Patel) group? Hence the "tonnes of money" in their chest. I am told so and hence I am asking.

 

[prasad1]

Post #8 is mine. Is it misleading?
On a separate note isn't the Swaminarayn group primarily a business class (baniya/Patel) group? Hence the "tonnes of money" in their chest. I am told so and hence I am asking.

My post had two reference, the first part was to you. The second was to post#8.
What I meant was Swaminarayan group does not discriminate on caste basis. My problem with some of the people in this site is their preoccupation with the birth based caste compartmentation. I am saying that except for the vote bank politics, caste should not be the basis of limiting our abilities. Caste can be an identity, but should not be the limitation for individual's growth.
Individual's achievement is not a caste achievement.

I personally know members who are from other than Patel group.

 

[mahakavi]

......
All acharyas of all sects in sanatana dharma fold accepted the different duties and responsibilities; mutually beneficial coexistence does not necessarily mean abolish varnas and jatis.

It does not matter if thousand angels dance on the pinhead. The acceptance of AcAryAs of the varNashrama dharma does not mean a thing when it has acquired negative image, rightly or wrongly. The majority of the population does not accept it anymore. So it is better for all of us to recognize that the past practice (valid in ancient times) must be discontinued. For the sake of maintaining community harmony it is better to not even mention that since that will be used against the minority (at the top of the pyramid--the brahmin community) to continue the tirade against them.

 

[mahakavi]

My post had two reference, the first part was to you. The second was to post#8.
What I meant was Swaminarayan group does not discriminate on caste basis. My problem with some of the people in this site is their preoccupation with the birth based caste compartmentation. I am saying that except for the vote bank politics, caste should not be the basis of limiting our abilities. Caste can be an identity, but should not be the limitation for individual's growth.
Individual's achievement is not a caste achievement.

I personally know members who are from other than Patel group.

I think you meant to say post #7 where the mention about caste identity was made. I did not endorse the caste identity either way---support it or deny it in my post (#8)

 

[prasad1]

I think you meant to say post #7 where the mention about caste identity was made. I did not endorse the caste identity either way---support it or deny it in my post (#8)

Yes sir, my mistake. You are right it was to post#7.
Thanks

 

[Jaykay767]

wow - gosh - this will lead to massive backlash !!. Converting other religious places of worship will lead to deep resentment with the local majority christians. Indians abroad should not misuse the generosity of the white christians.

what if a old unused temple or Mosque had been converted to a Church, everyone would have been up in arms like the Sikhs did due to a silly joke by a famous comedian !!

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear All

Jaykay 767 is right - don't know how this thread meandered into a caste oriented discussion!

We have had enough of these, and recently too Praveenji reminded us.

Let's not gloat of churches being converted to Temples, and assume a "Holier than Thou" posture.

Please see my earlier posts in this thread, we [ collectively as a lot ] have ourselves done a shoddy job
of maintaining / preserving beautiful structures with exquisite workmanship and art
- reasons/excuses may be many.

Let's please abstain from bringing up castes / sub-castes / communities - gets us nowhere.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[prasad1]

wow - gosh - this will lead to massive backlash !!. Converting other religious places of worship will lead to deep resentment with the local majority christians. Indians abroad should not misuse the generosity of the white christians.

what if a old unused temple or Mosque had been converted to a Church, everyone would have been up in arms like the Sikhs did due to a silly joke by a famous comedian !!

Mr. Jaykay767,

I beg to differ from you. There may be resentment in white supremacist community, but they resent all colored people, and it is a fringe group. The wast majority of american truly believe in secularism at the community level. They may be very religious at personal level, but they want government out of religion. Fortunately they have positive image of Hinduism, and buddhism. In general they are very tolerant of other religion. Except after 9-11 there is a backlash against Islam (it may be due to the image). They generally care about their neighborhood. So if a blighted church is converted to a well kept temple, it would be welcome.

We built a sprawling Temple in my town, it was inaugurated by the Governor of the state. We invited all dignitaries from state, county, and the city. We invited the all the neighbors to the temple. We are law abiding and neighborly. We adopted the street and participate in other local activities. We have great relations in the community.

 

[mahakavi]

In general if a Hindu temple is being built in a neighborhood (any place in the US), there is an elaborate procedure involved such as acquiring the land, getting a permit from the city/town hall wherein several meetings are held which are open to the public and concerned citizens can raise objections, and only when all issues have been discussed (such as traffic, noise, rituals/celebrations at odd hours etc.,) a permit is issued. Legal professionals are more than willing to assist in such activities (of course for a fee). Most citizens are accommodative so long as it does not bother them. Some are even curious to attend the festivals. The Hindu temples in the US do not discriminate anybody from coming in so long as they adhere to the customs such as removing the shoes prior to entering. Overall the temples adhere to the noise ordinance, traffic rules etc. When there are huge religious celebrations and temples premises cannot accommodate parking for all the cars, they arrange for remote parking at some public lots or schools (which are paid for), run shuttle buses to the temple (hiring local transport facilities), and traffic cops to regulate traffic (economic activity).

The temples try their best to blend with the community by participating in charity events, blood drive, and many other social activities so that they are considered part of the community. Very rarely they take over other buildings such as churches which probably were scheduled to close their doors anyway due to declining congregation. Hindu temples require special construction anyway and churches are not suited for that except as temporary locations. Most of the time the Hindu temples are built in remote locations requiring purchases of very few existing homes. When that happens the people who sell those land/homes are not under pressure and they are offered premium prices for their residences. So it is a win-win situation. Very rarely some skinhead incidents occur. Once in St. Louis couple of 18-year olds threw some firebombs at night into the Hindu temple. The teenagers were apprehended later. Law enforcement officials do understand the sentiments of Hindus. There will always be some wrangles caused by fringe elements but that happens even in India. In general "live and let live" is the norm in the US.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

In MHO, instead of buying out the churches, Swaminarayan sects should have renovated the churches and turned them over to local community. In case the local community has thinned out from there, it could have still been maintained by the well-to-do. Thankfully, they have retained the images/pictures of Christ. I appreciate the people who brought up temples in foreign lands. The learned people must have carried the concept of formless and omnipresent god there which is the core in Hinduism. The temples and their maintainance, etc. show the tinge of vanity in our thinking. We have many temples uncared for here. If not today tomorrow the precincts may become objects of hate and vandalism. In these things vertical growth is preferable. I hope some people can remember the Babri Majid episode which is still holding fire. Every community has wrought havoc on Hindu temples and other sacred precincts here. Will it not be a good proposition if we do not allow others to accuse us. One way we are snapping our moorings here and at the same time marooning our people away somewhere.

 

[prasad1]

In MHO, instead of buying out the churches, Swaminarayan sects should have renovated the churches and turned them over to local community. In case the local community has thinned out from there, it could have still been maintained by the well-to-do. Thankfully, they have retained the images/pictures of Christ. I appreciate the people who brought up temples in foreign lands. The learned people must have carried the concept of formless and omnipresent god there which is the core in Hinduism. The temples and their maintainance, etc. show the tinge of vanity in our thinking. We have many temples uncared for here. If not today tomorrow the precincts may become objects of hate and vandalism. In these things vertical growth is preferable. I hope some people can remember the Babri Majid episode which is still holding fire. Every community has wrought havoc on Hindu temples and other sacred precincts here. Will it not be a good proposition if we do not allow others to accuse us. One way we are snapping our moorings here and at the same time marooning our people away somewhere.

Iyya,
Some how I get feeling that you think Indians are aliens in USA. Our children born in USA think of themselves as full blooded Americans. So this concept that you need to hide in the corners and merge your identity, and not stand out is totally alien to them. It might be older immigrant who are scared of their surroundings.
In general PIO's are well to do, and respected members of the community. As a madrasi you might be more of an alien in Mumbai, than in Washington dc. On certain days you might get harassed as Bhihari in Mumbai, than in San jose.

If you can not live with dignity, and without the fear, it is not worth living.

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Prasad,

Sorry have to disagree. This is about symbolism. Look at what happened when people wanted to build a mosque/multicultural center in Ground Zero (9+ yrs after the event). everyone came on to the streets to protest. It was actually a good thing & the idea was to promote a positive image of Islam.

If a temple or mosque had been converted into a Church, there would have been universal protests.

Many of the whites do not want to say things that are not politically correct, but they do resent many of this. so lets go beyond the words & see if we are upsetting the majortiy community.

Lets err on the side of caution than assuming that most whites are happy except a small fringe groups.

Cheers,
JK

 

[prasad1]

Hi Prasad,

Sorry have to disagree. This is about symbolism. Look at what happened when people wanted to build a mosque/multicultural center in Ground Zero (9+ yrs after the event). everyone came on to the streets to protest. It was actually a good thing & the idea was to promote a positive image of Islam.

If a temple or mosque had been converted into a Church, there would have been universal protests.

Many of the whites do not want to say things that are not politically correct, but they do resent many of this. so lets go beyond the words & see if we are upsetting the majortiy community.

Lets err on the side of caution than assuming that most whites are happy except a small fringe groups.

Cheers,
JK

Sir there is a mass hysteria against Islam after 9-11. The people protesting were misinformed, and people got confused with Terrorist. It is unfortunate.
But I would strongly urge you to not bring the defeatist mentality to this. I have a feeling that TB's have been beaten up, and are running scared in their home. This is not the attitude of average PIO. We are law abiding citizen and have very good relation with the community.

We are contributing member of the society we live in and are respected in the community.
You are being given wrong Information, and you might be projecting your own fears.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Prasadji I have no doubt PIOs are not feeling like aliens there. In my small mind I wonder how this humanism has spread or proclaimed. Realities are manifest, subdued or latent every where. We are Indians and hence are in Mumbai or elsewhere. But that is no helping us of course. We are looked down upon in TN. Bhaiyyas and Biharis are not welcomed here. Still they can be here. Nobody has any idea how others will be accepted in the interiors of UP and Bihar. Even local population is not tolerating each other there. Nor are they respecting the laws in print. I think the world is united on the dwindling energy sources. Whatever feeling of universality is there it is on a fragile foundation. It can be proved strong only when trials face each one of us. Considering that poverty is the biggest force in the world even today, the level of dignity might come down many notches. History is replete with numerous instances of animosity. Talking of Indo-US, it is going good so far between the two governments. Some how it is all uneasy. I am not a pessimist. I am just trying to be practical in thinking.

 

[Jaykay767]

Sir there is a mass hysteria against Islam after 9-11. The people protesting were misinformed, and people got confused with Terrorist. It is unfortunate.
But I would strongly urge you to not bring the defeatist mentality to this. I have a feeling that TB's have been beaten up, and are running scared in their home. This is not the attitude of average PIO. We are law abiding citizen and have very good relation with the community.

We are contributing member of the society we live in and are respected in the community.
You are being given wrong Information, and you might be projecting your own fears.

Hi Prasad,

first off - I am born & brought up outside of TN. so nothing to do with TN or the anti-bram movement etc.. Infact I have not lived in TN at all.

This has nothing to do with defeatist mentality. Nothing good can come by coverting other's religous places & turning them to temples. even if the majority are okay, the fringe group will further get inflamed.

Also, How come your so called secular majority whites suddenly turned against Islam on the suggestion of building a multicultural center/mosque. ??

I would not be happy if someone converts a old temple into a Chruch or a Mosque even if I dont protest. of course millions would protest at the mere suggestion.

Lets do on to others what we expect from them !!

Cheers,
JK

 

[mahakavi]

>>f a temple or mosque had been converted into a Church, there would have been universal protests.<<

Universal? First of all no temple or mosque would be taken away in a country like USA unless it did not conform to certain ordinances. If a church group wanted to take it over it has to be with the consent of the temple/mosque at a price that the temple/mosque agrees. Besides, the structure itself would not be of value to them. They have to demolish it and build it anew (shades of babri masjid???). The legal profession would come to the aid of the affected party if at all some such "atrocity" would be attempted. The courts in the US are very much protective of religious sentiments unless the religious sect indulges in nefarious/illegal activities. Allegations alone won't do. You have to prove them.

>>Also, How come your so called secular majority whites suddenly turned against Islam on the suggestion of building a multicultural center/mosque. ?? <<

It was because in the aftermath of 9/11 everything the Islamists do is suspect. Right now most of the terrorist activities are centered outside the US (except some cases like 9/11, the Times Square incident, and the Detroit airliner incident). People don't want a den of religious zealots in the name of Islam providing shelter to terrorists and that too close to the tragedy center. Look at all the madrasas in Pakistan. In the name of religious education these young minds are poisoned to strike at infidels wherever they go.