Conception

[sudeshwer]

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I read somewhere that at the time of conception it is female, but subequently only, say after few days, it becomes male or female. can anbody throw more 'lights' on it - srinivasan

 

[Naina_Marbus]

I read somewhere that at the time of conception it is female, but subequently only, say after few days, it becomes male or female. can anbody throw more 'lights' on it - srinivasan

A fetus may have the genotype XX (girl) or XY(boy) at conception, but it takes about 5-6 weeks before the expression of the physical sex characteristics (penis or vulva) begins to manifest. If the fetus is XY (boy), around 6 weeks of development, a gene on the Y-chromosome called the SRY (sex determining region) is activated, which causes male characteristics to develop. The potential gonads, which up until now have been non-specific, will develop into testes and a penis based on the trigger from the SRY gene at this time. Once the testes are mature enough, another gene is turned on to begin producing testosterone (the male sex hormone), which causes the internal sex organs (vas deferens, etc.) to develop. Part of the testosterone turns into another hormone which then causes the external sex organs to develop.

If it were not for the Y chromosome, the fetus will develop as a female because there will be no trigger from the SRY to tell it otherwise. This is why we all "start as females". Actually, the stages of development for all normal fetuses are the same until about 6 weeks or so, when the sex-chromosomes really become important to development.

The chromosomes are present at conception, but if the SRY gene is not triggered – may be because of some mutation or abnormality in Y chromosome, the testes and penis will not develop, or will develop abnormally. Such chromosomal abnormalities result in intersexed individuals with an XY chromosome but no fully-formed male sex organs – such individuals become transgender i.e. a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender. More to the point, a transgender is a person whose gender self-identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[renuka]

dear Sudeshwar,

Naina Ji has answered your question perfectly.

So its true we all start off as "females" till the Y chromosome (if present) expresses itself.

It comes as no surprise..cos everything in this world is supposed to be Prakirti(Feminine principle) and only God is Purusha(Masculine Principle).

Seems like bad news to MCPs!LOL

 

[sudeshwer]

Naina Ji and Renuka Ji
thanks a lot. what an excellent explanation!! Great. small query Naina Ji at the conception stage. XX or (I repeat OR) XY chromsome will be there; not together. so XX is there, then it will be female and if it is XY, then chances are it could turn out to be female. Am I right. if my question is stupid pardone me - srinivasan

 

[auh]

So its true we all start off as "females" till the Y chromosome (if present) expresses itself.

How can it be so? Given the explanation is correct, we can at best, only infer that "the gender characteristics expresses itself sometime after conception" and can, in no way, be construed that all "start off a females till the Y chromosome expresses itself".

 

[renuka]

How can it be so? Given the explanation is correct, we can at best, only infer that "the gender characteristics expresses itself sometime after conception" and can, in no way, be construed that all "start off a females till the Y chromosome expresses itself".

dear auh,

I used the word female in inverted commas...''females"

I think you should get the idea.

Naina Ji has explained real well.

Ok let me cut it short...without the Y Chromosome there is no Penis.

 

[auh]

Hi Renuka,

When the sperm hits the ovum, it is only an X+Y or an X+X that forms (I am not talking of any aberrations here). So it is definitely a "male" or a "female".

I did not understand what you meant by females in inverted commas. Does that signify anything?

 

[renuka]

Naina Ji and Renuka Ji
thanks a lot. what an excellent explanation!! Great. small query Naina Ji at the conception stage. XX or (I repeat OR) XY chromsome will be there; not together. so XX is there, then it will be female and if it is XY, then chances are it could turn out to be female. Am I right. if my question is stupid pardone me - srinivasan

I get what you mean...you are asking if there is a chance for an XY to turn out to be a female in cases where the Y failed to activate SRY.

Ok the answer is already in what Naina Ji wrote.

Let me just simplify it.

If a faulty situation arises in the XY where the Y fails to kick start the SRY..what you get is not an XX female but you get a XY with underdeveloped or non developed penis and testes.

So far I only know that in frogs exposure to pesticide atrazine can change the gender of a male frog into a female!

The ratio is 1 in 10 male frogs change from male to female when exposed to atrazine.

 

[renuka]

Hi Renuka,

When the sperm hits the ovum, it is only an X+Y or an X+X that forms (I am not talking of any aberrations here). So it is definitely a "male" or a "female".

I did not understand what you meant by females in inverted commas. Does that signify anything?

Yes..you are right..its either XX or or XY so technically one's sex is determined during conception...but the issue here is if the XY is going to develop into an normal male or not.

If the Y does not activate the SRY....the development of testes and penis do not start or develops abnormally.

So the usage of the term all start off as "females" is used loosely to denote that a male starts off his life similar to a female fetus before his Y expresses itself.

Starting off as "females" is not used technically...hence the usage of inverted commas.

I hope I am clear.

 

[sudeshwer]

very interesting and encouraging debate. y see the very fact that male has breasts without any purpose or use(I hope I am right) itself prooves that we all start as females - srinivasan

 

[prasad1]

Yes..you are right..its either XX or or XY so technically one's sex is determined during conception...but the issue here is if the XY is going to develop into an normal male or not.

If the Y does not activate the SRY....the development of testes and penis do not start or develops abnormally.

So the usage of the term all start off as "females" is used loosely to denote that a male starts off his life similar to a female fetus before his Y expresses itself.

Starting off as "females" is not used technically...hence the usage of inverted commas.

I hope I am clear.

All your arguments assume a binary solution only, so they are all wrong.
In this world it is not male or female alone, there are shemales. Nature works in odd ways. Sometimes the signals transmitted is not fully received.

 

[renuka]

All your arguments assume a binary solution only, so they are all wrong.
In this world it is not male or female alone, there are shemales. Nature works in odd ways. Sometimes the signals transmitted is not fully received.

Dear Prasad ji,

The "shemales" are or 2 types:

1)Genetically XY but the Y failed to express itself

2)XXY...Klinefelter syndrome where there is an extra X chromosome and the person has lesser developed external organs with visible signs of feminization but the voice remains distinctively "male" most of the time.



Now there is another "shemale" which I think what you are talking about..that is genetically XY ...external organs totally developed and physically male but "identifies" himself as a "female" and behaves in a feminine manner.

Ok coming to this..I think this is what you mean that signals transmitted are not fully received.

Yes..you may have a point but the situation is not as simple as failure in transmission cos the exact cause of such switch in behavior and total disconnect from gender and behavior is still subject to debate.

The various hypothesis are :

1)Psychological reasons for eg:..Aggressive and violent father and the son starts to sympathize with the mother and develop "feminine" mindset to run away from the thought of violence.

2)Endocrinal reasons..there is failure of the gonads to produce adequate testoterone.

3)Physical reasons..castration of a normal male before he hits puberty..so the testosterone estrogen ratio in the body is altered.

4)Hypothalamic reasons..there is a theory that in utero exposure to a sudden surge in estrogen during pregnancy "feminizes" the hypothalmus of the male fetus making him prone to "feminine" behavior later in life(not entirely proven)



So Prasad ji...its not really a Binary solution..its just that I did not want to go in too detail too soon.

 

[renuka]

very interesting and encouraging debate. y see the very fact that male has breasts without any purpose or use(I hope I am right) itself prooves that we all start as females - srinivasan

Dear Suds,


The presence of mammary glands is a hall mark of the mammalian species...it is not that the presence of rudimentary breasts in males totally denote that they started of as females.

In the human body..there is are analogous organs in both sexes.

For example the Clitoris in the female is the analogous organ for the Penis in the male...so can we say that females started off as males?


Likewise the Prostatic Utricle in the male is considered the analogous organ for the Uterus in the female.

So technically speaking a male and female complement each other like an Ardhanareeshwara.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Suds,




So technically speaking a male and female complement each other like an Ardhanareeshwara.

............. and you have to bring into this thread perumal murugan and maadhoru baagan, and politicize this thread.. and have our anti brahmin haters hate you? hee hee hee hee hee hee

 

[renuka]

............. and you have to bring into this thread perumal murugan and maadhoru baagan, and politicize this thread.. and have our anti brahmin haters hate you? hee hee hee hee hee hee

Kunjs....I am confused yaar..I really do not get what you meant but I get a vague feeling its not good news!LOL

 

[Raji Ram]

Come on Renu! Are you not aware of the fire works going on about the book 'MAdhorubAgan' written by Perumal Murugan?

Written four years back and translated into English one year back, there is a sudden hue and cry about the book now! :blah:

The English book is titled 'One part woman'! (Ardhanareeshwara)
Please see this thread perumal murugan rescinds for more details. :ranger:

It seems only now the sale of the book is gaining momentum!

 

[renuka]

Come on Renu! Are you not aware of the fire works going on about the book 'MAdhorubAgan' written by Perumal Murugan?

Written four years back and translated into English one year back, there is a sudden hue and cry about the book now! :blah:

The English book is titled 'One part woman'! (Ardhanareeshwara)
Please see this thread perumal murugan rescinds for more details. :ranger:

It seems only now the sale of the book is gaining momentum!

dear RR ji,

I am honestly telling you I did not read that thread...I just entered that thread only after Kunjs wrote a reply to my post.

I still havent read everything about it.

So I am not very sure what Kunjs meant.

I will have to look it up now.

 

[renuka]

Dear Kunjs,

After RR ji wrote about the book One Part Woman(Ardhanareeshwara)...now I get it.

A big thanks to RR ji.

 

[Raji Ram]

....... A big thanks to RR ji.

:yo:, Renu!

 

[renuka]

RR ji...call me a tube light for only reading about One Part Woman now!LOL

I read online to get a gist of it...I was thinking "what a car festival"

I did not know that people in the past were that open to the concept of a one totally "free copulating" day...that too in a state that talks the most of being conservative.

BTW I could not help comparing the car festival open day to celebration held once a year by certain tribes in Papua New Guinea(PNG)

In PNG once a year they have an open day where women are allowed to have sex with whoever they want and are even allowed to rape males!

The leader of the group will be a senior sexually active female and they chase men and have sex with them..if they men resists they will be beaten and raped.

But these tribals prevent unwanted pregnancy by eating a type of wild yam which confers contraceptive effects.

So seeing the same type of open day sexual day in some ancient TN village and Papua New Guinea I wonder if there is some common underlying factors?

 

[Naina_Marbus]

@Renukaji

From the moment we are born, society dictates us to fit into one of two gender norms.
This often involves shaping, enforcement and surveillance of our gender identity. We are
given the "appropriate" clothes, toys and books to ensure that we are easily identifiable
as either a boy or girl. A boy who likes to play with barbie doll or a girl, who likes to play
with toy soldiers, will generally encounter disapproval and "correction".

Does science tell us that there may be a third gender?

Where do the Hijras of India fit in? A Hijra could be a transsexual person,
transgender person (khusras), cross-dresser (zenanas), or eunuch (narnbans).
What genetic karyotype would explain their behaviour?

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

There is a news about a woman who married all the five brothers in a family!
She seemed to be happy to be with all these males under one roof! :grouphug:

See this news: Northern India woman marries five brothers

 

[tbs]

@Renukaji

From the moment we are born, society dictates us to fit into one of two gender norms.
This often involves shaping, enforcement and surveillance of our gender identity. We are
given the "appropriate" clothes, toys and books to ensure that we are easily identifiable
as either a boy or girl. A boy who likes to play with barbie doll or a girl, who likes to play
with toy soldiers, will generally encounter disapproval and "correction".

Does science tell us that there may be a third gender?

Where do the Hijras of India fit in? A Hijra could be a transsexual person,
transgender person (khusras), cross-dresser (zenanas), or eunuch (narnbans).
What genetic karyotype would explain their behaviour?

hi sir,

even i have curiosity abt this too..

 

[renuka]

@Renukaji

From the moment we are born, society dictates us to fit into one of two gender norms.
This often involves shaping, enforcement and surveillance of our gender identity. We are
given the "appropriate" clothes, toys and books to ensure that we are easily identifiable
as either a boy or girl. A boy who likes to play with barbie doll or a girl, who likes to play
with toy soldiers, will generally encounter disapproval and "correction".

Does science tell us that there may be a third gender?

Where do the Hijras of India fit in? A Hijra could be a transsexual person,
transgender person (khusras), cross-dresser (zenanas), or eunuch (narnbans).
What genetic karyotype would explain their behaviour?

dear NainaJi,

In the reply to Prasad Ji I had explained about the karyotype XY and XXY and also about situations and conditions that a XY male could display feminine behavior.

As you said that there could be a third gender.

But at present the Karyotyping goes as you must be knowing:

1)XX--female

2)XO--female with Turner's syndrome.

3)XY--male

4)XYY--the highly aggressive male

5)XXY--male with Klinefelter syndrome



So going by all these..if we really plan to start thinking in terms of a 3rd gender..then I guess it has to be more than 3 genders cos the XO and XYY too are not like normal males and females.

What say you?

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

There is a news about a woman who married all the five brothers in a family!
She seemed to be happy to be with all these males under one roof! :grouphug:

See this news: Northern India woman marries five brothers

Dear RR ji,


I know some communities practice Polyandary so its their culture.

I remember seeing a documentary on some tribals in North East India.

Well she will be a Deeeeeeeeerga Sumangali.

But unless all 5 brothers are good looking..otherwise its not worth it!LOL

But here all of them have nice smiling faces..they must be really happy.

The rest of us just have to stick to one husband!LOL