Confusion about traditions

[Prega]

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Vanakum everyone.
This is my first post. I am from South Africa, born into a tamil speaking family. I am starting very late in life (50) to understand tamil, but my father (83) is fluent in tamil. He is a brahmin. In South Africa, one must understand that our forefathers came from different parts of India, so we have a medley of deities, which we have to pray to. This becomes onerous to people (especially tamils) because each deity has to be given their significant dues. The north indians (Hindi speaking) are much more streamlined in their worship. The Hindi brahmins follow a strict code which seems to be universal in their approach to prayers. The tamil brahmins completely lack any standards here. Each brahmin has his own opinion and approach in doing prayers.
To give you an example, we undertake Kavady in January (Thai Poosam) and Chitra Paravum in April/may. Traditionally, for the chitraparavum, kavady used to be undertaken on the first Sunday after the full moon. The reason being is that in the older days, due to work schedules, people could convene on Sunday to host the prayer. Nowadays, temples are hosting it on the chitraparavum day, and furthermore in the last 3 years, it is based on the thithi of the moon to take the kavady. This is creating a problem for people, because they have to take leave of absence from work.
The question in my mind is, does this add value to the prayer? It is only creating confusion. Then there is the mythology that has different stories. Let us take Maha Shivarathri. There is a story of the hunter and the bilva leaf. Then there is a story of Lord Shiva drinking the poison. No two stories have any common ground. It becomes subjective and we cannot prove which is right or wrong. For Ganesha Chathurthi, one story is that Lord Shiva beheaded the child created by Mother Shakthi.
One would question as to how can the Lord, who is merciful not have any foresight? Him (having His third eye) seeing into the future should know this. How can He have emotions of anger. We are continuously taught to get rid of our Lust, Greed, Anger and Envy? I am sure every mythology has a literal meaning and a deeper significant meaning. But the brahmins of today are only propagating the literal meaning adding to the confusion in our tradition.

I would love to hear comments

Thank you
Vannakum

 

[renuka]

Hi,
Welcome to Forum.

Good topic.

I really dont know where to even begin.In fact I myself had started a thread called Complicatedism some long time back about religion and its complications it causes in our lives.

Best is not to blame anyone for propagating literal meaning of religion etc.

I do agree most of our Hindu Traditions are always literal meaning most of the time..that is partly cos not many would like to take the "risk" of threading the paths lesser known..that is trying to go beyond what has been fed into our brain by tradition.

I am no Brahmin to give detail advice but if you want an honest answer..God keeps things simple..men complicates.

So at times its just fine to read the Puranas with a truck load of salt.

At the times it was written it was mainly for simple folks who could understand better when human emotions are on display in the stories..hence we see Angry Gods and Angry Birds too(Garuda!LOL) and some sort of scandalous stories especially of Lord Indra.Its like the MEGA Serials of old times..where the human mind needed to be exposed to stories of anger and emotion to instill some fear in them to thread the right path.

But if you read the Rig Veda no where there is any scandal of Lord Indra..in fact he occupies a high post with others as his side kick.

So the best is for you to follow what suits your nature the best.

After all even prayer is optional.

 

[tks]

Prega

Welcome !

Hinduism is not a religion like any other. Please read this conversation someone sent me . I am not in agreement with all the ideas but overall it conveys what it is about.
There is a method to the madness - Puranas, Epics, so called Dharma, Vedas, Gita etc and every person who reads any subset of these have their own version of what Hinduism about which is just an umbrella name - it includes atheists also
=======================================

VERY GOOD CONVERSATION



— By Uday Lal Pai —

WHY I AM A HINDU


An American Girl was sitting on the right side, near window seat.

Itindeed was a long journey – it would take nearly seven hours!

I was surprised to see the young girl reading a Bible – unusual of young Americans! (Later I came to know that September 11 has changed mind-set of lot of US citizens. They suddenly turned religious, it seemed.)

After some time she smiled and we had few acquaintances talk. I told her that I am from India .

1 Then suddenly the American Girl asked: “What’s your faith?”

“What?” I didn’t understand the question.


2 American Girl - “I mean, what’s your religion? Are you a Christian? Or a Muslim?”

“No!” I replied, “I am neither Christian nor Muslim”.

Apparently she appeared shocked to listen to that.

3 American Girl - “Then who are you…?”

“I am a Hindu”, I said.

She looked at me as if she is seeing a caged animal.

She could not understand what I was talking about.

A common man in Europe OR US know about Christianity and Islam, as they are the leading religions of the world today. But a Hindu, what?

I explained to her – I am born to a Hindu father and Hindu mother. Therefore, I am a Hindu by birth.

4 AmericanGirl - “Who is your Prophet?”

“We don’t have a Prophet,” I replied.

5 American Girl - “What’s your Holy Book?”

“We don’t have a single Holy Book, but we have hundreds and thousands of philosophical and sacred scriptures,” I replied. 6 American Girl - “Oh, come on…at least tell me who is your God?”

I asked - “What do you mean by that?” 7 American Girl - “Like we have Yahweh and Muslims have Allah – don’t you have a God?”

I thought for a moment. Muslims and Christians believe one God (Male God) who created the world and takes an interest in the humans who inhabit it. Her mind is conditioned with that kind of belief.

According to her (or anybody who doesn’t know about Hinduism), a religion need to haveone Prophet, one Holy book and one God. The mind is so conditioned and rigidly narrowed down to such a notion that anything else is not acceptable. I understood herperception and concept about faith. You can’t compare Hinduism with any of the present leading religions where you have to believe in one concept of God.I tried to explain to her: “You can believe in one god and he can be a Hindu. You may believe in multiple deities and still you can be a Hindu. What’s more – you may not believe in god at all, still you can be a Hindu. An atheist can also be a Hindu.”


This sounded very crazy to her.

She couldn’t imagine a religion so unorganized, still surviving for thousands of years, even after onslaught from foreign forces.

8 American Girl - “I don’t understand…but it seems very interesting. Are youreligious?”

What can I tell to thisAmerican girl?

I said: “I do not go to temple regularly. I do not make any regular rituals. I have learned some of the rituals in my younger days. I still enjoy doing it sometimes.”

9 American Girl - “Enjoy? Are you not afraid of God?”I said - “God is a friend. No - I am not afraid of God. Nobody has made any compulsions on me to perform these rituals regularly.”

10 American Girl thought for a while and then asked: “Have you ever thought of converting to any other religion?”

“Why should I? Even if I challenge some of the rituals and faith in Hinduism, nobody can convert me from Hinduism. Because, being a Hindu allows me to think independently and objectively, without conditioning… I remain as a Hindu never by force, but choice.”

I told her that Hinduism is not a religion, but a set of beliefs and practices. It is not a religion like Christianity OR Islam because it is not founded by any one person or does not have an organized controlling body like the Church OR the Order, I added. There is no institution or authority.

11 American Girl - “So, you don’t believe in God?” she wanted everything in black and white.

“I didn’t say that. I do not discard the divine reality. Our scripture, or Sruthis OR Smrithis– Vedas and Upanishads OR the Gita – say God might be there OR hemight not be there.But we pray to that supreme abstract authority ( Para Brahma) that is the creator of this universe.” 12 American Girl - “Why can’t you believe in one personal God?”

I said - “We have a concept – abstract – not a personal God. The concept OR notion of apersonal God, hiding behind the clouds of secrecy, telling us irrational stories through few men whom he sends as messengers, demanding us to worship him or punish us, does not make sense. I don’t think that God is as silly as an autocratic emperor who wants others to respect him or fear him.” I told her that such notions are just fancies of less educated human imagination and fallacies, adding that generally ethnic religious practitioners in Hinduism believe in personal gods. The entry level Hinduism has over-whelming superstitions too. The philosophical side of Hinduism negates all superstitions.

13 American Girl- “Good that you agree God might exist. You told that you pray.What is your prayer then?”

I said - “Loka Samastha Sukino Bhavantu. Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti,”

14 American Girl - “Funny,” she laughed, “What does it mean?”

I said - “ May all the beings in all the worlds be happy. Om Peace, Peace, Peace.”

15 American Girl - “Hmm…very interesting. I want to learn more about this religion. It is so democratic, broad-minded and free…” she exclaimed.

I said - “The fact is Hinduism is a religion of the individual, for the individual and by the individual with its roots in the Vedas and the Bhagavad-Gita. It is all about an individual approaching a personal God in an individual way according to his temperament and inner evolution – it is as simple as that.”

16 American Girl - “How does anybody convert to Hinduism?”

“I said - No body can convert you to Hinduism, because it is not a religion, but a set of beliefs and practices. Everything is acceptable in Hinduism because there is no single authority OR organization either to accept it OR to reject it OR to oppose it on behalf of Hinduism.”

If you look for meaning in life, don’t look for it in religions; don’t go from one cult to another or from one guru to the next.

For a real seeker, I told her, Bible itself gives guidelines when it says “ Kingdom of God is within you.” I reminded her of Christ’s teaching about the love that we have for each other. That is where you can find the meaning of life.

Loving each and every creation of the God is absolute and real. ‘Isavasyam idam sarvam’ Isam (the God) is present (inhabits) here everywhere – nothing exists separate from the God, because God is present everywhere. Respect every living being and non-living things as God. That’s what Hinduism teaches you.

Hinduism is referred to as Sanathana Dharma, the eternalfaith. It is based on the practice of Dharma, the code of life. The most important aspect of Hinduism is being truthful to oneself. Hinduism has no monopoly on ideas. It is open to all. Hindus believe in one God (not a personal one) expressed in different forms. For them, God is timeless and formless entity.

Ancestors of today’s Hindus believe in eternal truths and cosmic laws and these truths are opened to anyone who seeks them. But there is a section of Hindus who are either superstitious or turned fanatic to make this an organized religion like others. The British coin the word “Hindu” and considered it as a religion.

I said: “Religions have become an MLM (multi-level-marketing) industry that has been trying to expand the market share by conversion. The biggest business in today’s world is Spirituality. Hinduism is noexception…”

I am a Hindu primarily because it professes Non-violence – “Ahimsa Paramo Dharma” – Non violence is the highest duty. I am a Hindu because it doesn’t conditions my mind with any faith system.


~By Uday Lal Pai —

 

[munsaamy]

You seem really confused.

Hinduism should be understood in an orderly fashion.

Local customs are to be counted separately.

If understood in an orderly fashion, Hinduism would make a lot of sense.

There are more very learned persons are here to guide you.

Hope this message makes sense. I can't edit this.

 

[dhikshita]

Prega

Welcome !

Hinduism is not a religion like any other. Please read this conversation someone sent me . I am not in agreement with all the ideas but overall it conveys what it is about.
There is a method to the madness - Puranas, Epics, so called Dharma, Vedas, Gita etc and every person who reads any subset of these have their own version of what Hinduism about which is just an umbrella name - it includes atheists also
=======================================

VERY GOOD CONVERSATION



— By Uday Lal Pai —

WHY I AM A HINDU


An American Girlwas sitting on the right side, near window seat.

Itindeed was a long journey – it would take nearly seven hours!

I was surprised to see the young girl reading a Bible – unusual of young Americans! (Later I came to know that September 11 has changed mind-set of lot of US citizens. They suddenly turned religious, it seemed.)

After some time she smiled and we had few acquaintances talk. I told her that I am from India .

1 Then suddenly the American Girl asked: “What’s your faith?”

“What?” I didn’t understand the question.


2 American Girl - “I mean, what’s your religion? Are you a Christian? Or a Muslim?”

“No!” I replied, “I am neither Christian nor Muslim”.

Apparently she appeared shocked to listen to that.

3 American Girl - “Then who are you…?”

“I am a Hindu”, I said.

She looked at me as if she is seeing a caged animal.

She could not understand what I was talking about.

A common man in Europe OR US know about Christianity and Islam, as they are the leading religions of the world today. But a Hindu, what?

I explained to her – I am born to a Hindu father and Hindu mother. Therefore, I am a Hindu by birth.

4 AmericanGirl - “Who is your Prophet?”

“We don’t have a Prophet,” I replied.

5 American Girl - “What’s your Holy Book?”

“We don’t have a single Holy Book, but we have hundreds and thousands of philosophical and sacred scriptures,” I replied. 6 American Girl - “Oh, come on…at least tell me who is your God?”

I asked - “What do you mean by that?” 7 American Girl - “Like we have Yahweh and Muslims have Allah – don’t you have a God?”

I thought for a moment. Muslims and Christians believe one God (Male God) who created the world and takes an interest in the humans who inhabit it. Her mind is conditioned with that kind of belief.

According to her (or anybody who doesn’t know about Hinduism), a religion need to haveone Prophet, one Holy book and one God. The mind is so conditioned and rigidly narrowed down to such a notion that anything else is not acceptable. I understood herperception and concept about faith. You can’t compare Hinduism with any of the present leading religions where you have to believe in one concept of God.I tried to explain to her: “You can believe in one god and he can be a Hindu. You may believe in multiple deities and still you can be a Hindu. What’s more – you may not believe in god at all, still you can be a Hindu. An atheist can also be a Hindu.”


This sounded very crazy to her.

She couldn’t imagine a religion so unorganized, still surviving for thousands of years, even after onslaught from foreign forces.

8 American Girl - “I don’t understand…but it seems very interesting. Are youreligious?”

What can I tell to thisAmerican girl?

I said: “I do not go to temple regularly. I do not make any regular rituals. I have learned some of the rituals in my younger days. I still enjoy doing it sometimes.”

9 American Girl - “Enjoy? Are you not afraid of God?”I said - “God is a friend. No - I am not afraid of God. Nobody has made any compulsions on me to perform these rituals regularly.”

10 American Girl thought for a while and then asked: “Have you ever thought of converting to any other religion?”

“Why should I? Even if I challenge some of the rituals and faith in Hinduism, nobody can convert me from Hinduism. Because, being a Hindu allows me to think independently and objectively, without conditioning… I remain as a Hindu never by force, but choice.”

I told her that Hinduism is not a religion, but a set of beliefs and practices. It is not a religion like Christianity OR Islam because it is not founded by any one person or does not have an organized controlling body like the Church OR the Order, I added. There is no institution or authority.

11 American Girl - “So, you don’t believe in God?” she wanted everything in black and white.

“I didn’t say that. I do not discard the divine reality. Our scripture, or Sruthis OR Smrithis– Vedas and Upanishads OR the Gita – say God might be there OR hemight not be there.But we pray to that supreme abstract authority ( Para Brahma) that is the creator of this universe.” 12 American Girl - “Why can’t you believe in one personal God?”

I said - “We have a concept – abstract – not a personal God. The concept OR notion of apersonal God, hiding behind the clouds of secrecy, telling us irrational stories through few men whom he sends as messengers, demanding us to worship him or punish us, does not make sense. I don’t think that God is as silly as an autocratic emperor who wants others to respect him or fear him.” I told her that such notions are just fancies of less educated human imagination and fallacies, adding that generally ethnic religious practitioners in Hinduism believe in personal gods. The entry level Hinduism has over-whelming superstitions too. The philosophical side of Hinduism negates all superstitions.

13 American Girl- “Good that you agree God might exist. You told that you pray.What is your prayer then?”

I said - “Loka Samastha Sukino Bhavantu. Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti,”

14 American Girl - “Funny,” she laughed, “What does it mean?”

I said - “ May all the beings in all the worlds be happy. Om Peace, Peace, Peace.”

15 American Girl - “Hmm…very interesting. I want to learn more about this religion. It is so democratic, broad-minded and free…” she exclaimed.

I said - “The fact is Hinduism is a religion of the individual, for the individual and by the individual with its roots in the Vedas and the Bhagavad-Gita. It is all about an individual approaching a personal God in an individual way according to his temperament and inner evolution – it is as simple as that.”

16 American Girl - “How does anybody convert to Hinduism?”

“I said - No body can convert you to Hinduism, because it is not a religion, but a set of beliefs and practices. Everything is acceptable in Hinduism because there is no single authority OR organization either to accept it OR to reject it OR to oppose it on behalf of Hinduism.”

If you look for meaning in life, don’t look for it in religions; don’t go from one cult to another or from one guru to the next.

For a real seeker, I told her, Bible itself gives guidelines when it says “ Kingdom of God is within you.” I reminded her of Christ’s teaching about the love that we have for each other. That is where you can find the meaning of life.

Loving each and every creation of the God is absolute and real. ‘Isavasyam idam sarvam’ Isam (the God) is present (inhabits) here everywhere – nothing exists separate from the God, because God is present everywhere. Respect every living being and non-living things as God. That’s what Hinduism teaches you.

Hinduism is referred to as Sanathana Dharma, the eternalfaith. It is based on the practice of Dharma, the code of life. The most important aspect of Hinduism is being truthful to oneself. Hinduism has no monopoly on ideas. It is open to all. Hindus believe in one God (not a personal one) expressed in different forms. For them, God is timeless and formless entity.

Ancestors of today’s Hindus believe in eternal truths and cosmic laws and these truths are opened to anyone who seeks them. But there is a section of Hindus who are either superstitious or turned fanatic to make this an organized religion like others. The British coin the word “Hindu” and considered it as a religion.

I said: “Religions have become an MLM (multi-level-marketing) industry that has been trying to expand the market share by conversion. The biggest business in today’s world is Spirituality. Hinduism is noexception…”

I am a Hindu primarily because it professes Non-violence – “Ahimsa Paramo Dharma” – Non violence is the highest duty. I am a Hindu because it doesn’t conditions my mind with any faith system.


~By Uday Lal Pai —

Dear Friend,
It is an eye-opener to any person who has an opportunity to go through this long conversation that took between the two-strangers in a flight. I am really very very happy to be an Indian Hindu who till date follows practices the value of Hinduism, its culture & tradition. Thanks for bringing such a valuable material in our form , with a view to enlighten the followers so that they could have vivid thought about Hinduism besides develop a strong mind and in order to arrive at a conclusion that we are second to none in the world.

 

[sravna]

It is true that hinduism allows different adherents to have different faith systems and so it might appear there is confusion when it comes to the understanding of hindusm. I think it speaks highly of the religion that it recognizes that people differ in the way they view something and so messages conveyed to them should be in such a way that it reaches each of them. For some people, literal interpretation may make sense while others seek deeper significances of events. Thus there is so much leeway in the way messages are conveyed. I think this should therefore be taken as something positive than negative.

 

[renuka]

There are many ways of getting into prison but there are only two ways out.

Either you get out on parole cos of good behavior or you break out of prison.

Likewise at times even Religion is like that..to get into it there are many ways but to really understand it there is only one way.....your own way. You have to find your own way eventually.

 

[tks]

There are many ways of getting into prison but there are only two ways out.

Either you get out on parole cos of good behavior or you break out of prison.

Likewise at times even Religion is like that..to get into it there are many ways but to really understand it there is only one way.....your own way. You have to find your own way eventually.

LoL


► 1:25► 1:25
Padayappa (Yen Vazhi Thani Vazhi) - YouTube
Jul 8, 2011 - Uploaded by JuJuuBi
The film stars Rajinikanth, Soundarya, and Ramya Krishnan playing lead ... En vazhi thani ...

 

[prasad1]

It is true that hinduism allows different adherents to have different faith systems and so it might appear there is confusion when it comes to the understanding of hindusm. I think it speaks highly of the religion that it recognizes that people differ in the way they view something and so messages conveyed to them should be in such a way that it reaches each of them. For some people, literal interpretation may make sense while others seek deeper significances of events. Thus there is so much leeway in the way messages are conveyed. I think this should therefore be taken as something positive than negative.

Religion and God are difficult concepts. Any explanation is symbolic at best. So when the rishis and gurus speak about it you have to understand their audience at that time. So to take anything literal would be wrong, because the circumstances are different.
So to assume the literal meaning to be the real thing leads to wrong conclusions. If have to understand the deeper meaning, then only you can understand what was preached. i

 

[prasad1]

“I didn’t say that. I do not discard the divine reality. Our scripture, or Sruthis OR Smrithis– Vedas and Upanishads OR the Gita – say God might be there OR hemight not be there.But we pray to that supreme abstract authority ( Para Brahma) that is the creator of this universe.” 12 American Girl - “Why can’t you believe in one personal God?”


I said - “We have a concept – abstract – not a personal God. The concept OR notion of apersonal God, hiding behind the clouds of secrecy, telling us irrational stories through few men whom he sends as messengers, demanding us to worship him or punish us, does not make sense. I don’t think that God is as silly as an autocratic emperor who wants others to respect him or fear him.” I told her that such notions are just fancies of less educated human imagination and fallacies, adding that generally ethnic religious practitioners in Hinduism believe in personal gods. The entry level Hinduism has over-whelming superstitions too. The philosophical side of Hinduism negates all superstitions.


I like these comments Udai Lal Pai.
Thanks TKSji.

 

[biswa]

"We have a concept – abstract – not a personal God."

Prasadji and TKSji,
That seems to be the view of mostly the educated and advanced souls. I do not think Hinduism precludes the concept of a personal God. I know people (including my grand mother) who have a small idol of Gopal and treat him like a doll, waking him up, feeding him, bathing him and putting him to sleep. Even the most famous of Hindu temples has rituals for waking up God, performing his marriage, giving him lunch and putting him to sleep.

Description of Daily Sevas

In that sense who are we to dictate how people should pray to God? If treating him like a family member gives them happiness, so be it.

 

[tks]

"We have a concept – abstract – not a personal God."

Prasadji and TKSji,
That seems to be the view of mostly the educated and advanced souls. I do not think Hinduism precludes the concept of a personal God. I know people (including my grand mother) who have a small idol of Gopal and treat him like a doll, waking him up, feeding him, bathing him and putting him to sleep. Even the most famous of Hindu temples has rituals for waking up God, performing his marriage, giving him lunch and putting him to sleep.

Description of Daily Sevas

In that sense who are we to dictate how people should pray to God? If treating him like a family member gives them happiness, so be it.

Sri Biswa

I never commented in any of my posts about mode of worship of a personal Isvara. In fact Swami Vivekananda says that (and I am paraphrasing) that impersonal form cannot be related to. As I prefaced the post with that conversation I do not necessarily agree with every aspects but do overall in its spirit.

Yes , Hinduism is not against any form of worship and we have large number of temples to prove it

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear TKS Sir,

You will be surprise to know that after reading Renu's post, I too thought of Padayappaa's punch sentence!!

 

[tbs]

hi

hinduism ia universal....riruals are mainly geograhical conditions.....philosophy is universal.....mainly festivals more community

oriented.....based some puranic incidents.....confusion is state od mind...we always think out of box...

 

[tks]

Dear TKS Sir,

You will be surprise to know that after reading Renu's post, I too thought of Padayappaa's punch sentence!!

I am sure even Dr Renu may have quoted the line if she had re-read her post

Actually this personalization has taken a larger than life in India - its origin is from USA.

We all come from a 'Thali' culture - you get a thali without options.

When I was a student in USA after a few years I went to visit my family. We all took a train ride and as you know there are these Chai-wala who came into our compartment and started poring hot tea in some mud cup of some kind. I asked him if he has tea without sugar - this fellow started looking at me as if I was from another planet. Then my mother said - oh he is back to India after 4 years in the USA and has forgotten customs .. Everyone in the compartment were laughing.

This Burger King's ad 'have it your way' has of late creeped into lot of teachings also.

There are not many ways to the truth .. Usually options indicate lack of clarity in any situation.

Regards

 

[sarang]

And we have come a long way from ford model T - you can have any color as long as it is black- to on line custom engineered ordering - color, upholstery, options, power, attachments, day of manufacture and delivery.

Some US auto manufactures were contemplating direct ordering and delivery bypassing the dealer. Is it in place?

I am sure even Dr Renu may have quoted the line if she had re-read her post

Actually this personalization has taken a larger than life in India - its origin is from USA.

We all come from a 'Thali' culture - you get a thali without options.

When I was a student in USA after a few years I went to visit my family. We all took a train ride and as you know there are these Chai-wala who came into our compartment and started poring hot tea in some mud cup of some kind. I asked him if he has tea without sugar - this fellow started looking at me as if I was from another planet. Then my mother said - oh he is back to India after 4 years in the USA and has forgotten customs .. Everyone in the compartment were laughing.

This Burger King's ad 'have it your way' has of late creeped into lot of teachings also.

There are not many ways to the truth .. Usually options indicate lack of clarity in any situation.

Regards

 

[renuka]

Dear TKS ji and RR ji,

Actually I did not think of Padaiyappa punch dialogue when I wrote that but I actually thought that each one of us has our own personal way to reach the Universal Consciousness and no one can actually teach us how to get there.It has to be our very own journey finally..that way you are right..each of of us is a Padaiyappa and have our "own' way!LOL

 

[tks]

Dear TKS ji and RR ji,

Actually I did not think of Padaiyappa punch dialogue when I wrote that but I actually thought that each one of us has our own personal way to reach the Universal Consciousness and no one can actually teach us how to get there.It has to be our very own journey finally..that way you are right..each of of us is a Padaiyappa and have our "own' way!LOL

One can think or believe anything - we are entitled to that. That has nothing to do with any kind of teaching of any topic area.

A topic that is subjective experience based cannot be taught.
Our scriptural teaching is based on specific manner of communicating knowledge over generations.

 

[tks]

And we have come a long way from ford model T - you can have any color as long as it is black- to on line custom engineered ordering - color, upholstery, options, power, attachments, day of manufacture and delivery.

Some US auto manufactures were contemplating direct ordering and delivery bypassing the dealer. Is it in place?

Some car manufacturers offer that. Within the auto industry the trend is going in another direction also. Many people are confused by the whole array of options and do not know what they actually need.

An ordinary person wants to have his or her say in terms of color and extent of 'luxury' items. They may even want to have a silly thing called 'rear spoiler' in a certain manner. To avoid further confusion that prevents a person from purchasing many car manufacturers offer 'packages'. You get what you want along with a lot of other items that is priced as a package deal.

When a car is marketed as statement of our personality and extension of our ego then options matter.

 

[sangom]

Vanakum everyone.
This is my first post. I am from South Africa, born into a tamil speaking family. I am starting very late in life (50) to understand tamil, but my father (83) is fluent in tamil. He is a brahmin. In South Africa, one must understand that our forefathers came from different parts of India, so we have a medley of deities, which we have to pray to. This becomes onerous to people (especially tamils) because each deity has to be given their significant dues. The north indians (Hindi speaking) are much more streamlined in their worship. The Hindi brahmins follow a strict code which seems to be universal in their approach to prayers. The tamil brahmins completely lack any standards here. Each brahmin has his own opinion and approach in doing prayers.
To give you an example, we undertake Kavady in January (Thai Poosam) and Chitra Paravum in April/may. Traditionally, for the chitraparavum, kavady used to be undertaken on the first Sunday after the full moon. The reason being is that in the older days, due to work schedules, people could convene on Sunday to host the prayer. Nowadays, temples are hosting it on the chitraparavum day, and furthermore in the last 3 years, it is based on the thithi of the moon to take the kavady. This is creating a problem for people, because they have to take leave of absence from work.
The question in my mind is, does this add value to the prayer? It is only creating confusion. Then there is the mythology that has different stories. Let us take Maha Shivarathri. There is a story of the hunter and the bilva leaf. Then there is a story of Lord Shiva drinking the poison. No two stories have any common ground. It becomes subjective and we cannot prove which is right or wrong. For Ganesha Chathurthi, one story is that Lord Shiva beheaded the child created by Mother Shakthi.
One would question as to how can the Lord, who is merciful not have any foresight? Him (having His third eye) seeing into the future should know this. How can He have emotions of anger. We are continuously taught to get rid of our Lust, Greed, Anger and Envy? I am sure every mythology has a literal meaning and a deeper significant meaning. But the brahmins of today are only propagating the literal meaning adding to the confusion in our tradition.

I would love to hear comments

Thank you
Vannakum

Hi Prega!

I am not visiting this site as regularly as I used to, till some months ago, and that is because of my old age and health problems. I happened to see your post and felt that it deserves a sincere reply.

To put you in a correct position to accept or reject my views, let me tell you that I am a Tamil brahmin, 73 years, and settled in Tiruvananthapuram, the capital of Kerala State in India. My knowledge or expertise, if any, about religion comes mainly out of my life experiences, what elders have told me from time to time, and a little bit of reading and thinking on my own part. Now, to your points.

There is no need to follow every deity under the hindu religion or to observe each and every festival, giving of dues to each deity etc., unless such an act on your part will bring in a negative view about yourself in the society around you. The guiding principle must be "ūroṭu ottuvāḻ" (ஊரோடு ஓத்துவாழ் - live in harmony with the people around you). In India the Chitra Paravum or the spring equinox usually does not have Kavady taken afaik; it is done on Thai Poosam and Skanda Shashti (the sixth day in the bright half of the month of Aippasi, falls on 29 Oct. 2014 this year) according to the local customs and beliefs in different parts. Therefore, if participating in the Kavady is considered a must for all people of your age, status etc., then please try to fall in line with the society. If it is not that much compulsory, then you can have your discretion whether to join or not.

There is no great meaning in changing the Kavady from a Sunday, which is convenient to people in general, to some other day based on 'tithi'. If possible, you and like-minded persons may try to convince the people on the other side and change back to the Sunday norm. But for explaining and understanding this it is necessary to first know whether the people who advocate this tithi idea, follow any Indian almanac or are following the western system of astrology, also called the astronomical or saayana system. If you will like to further discuss this point, kindly write to my e-mail id:—
[email protected]


In truth, "prayer" has very limited value only. So are all the external shows by way of devotion, including the 'Kavady'etc. But I have no idea about the general level of religious understanding about your people there in S.A. At the beginning level, all these external show of devotion, belief in ever so many deities, many stories (these are all mere stories - there is absolutely no evidence to show that any of the accounts regarding origin of Shivaraatri or any of our similar types of festivals like Ramanavami, Holi, Deepaavali etc.

 

[munsaamy]

Prega,

Traditions are just traditions. Traditions change from region to region, even in the same region amoung different groups of persons and amoung different sect and jathis.

Trying to find some kind or order amoung would not get anyone too far. Traditions are to be checked regionally.

Comparing following a religion to getting placed in the prison is appropriate. It is always nice to break out of the prison.

Hope that member also would provide various options so that the enquirer could 'choose the path' comfortable for him.

One would question as to how can the Lord, who is merciful not have any foresight? Him (having His third eye) seeing into the future should know this. How can He have emotions of anger. We are continuously taught to get rid of our Lust, Greed, Anger and Envy? I am sure every mythology has a literal meaning and a deeper significant meaning. But the brahmins of today are only propagating the literal meaning adding to the confusion in our tradition.

Siva was not "the God" to start with. Siva is just a part of "sarguna Brahmam" .. so are you .. even so is Munsaamy! So, don't be surprised. Siva at one stage even got completely attracted by mohini. But Mohini was Vishnu. ... you figure it out.

The question in my mind is, does this add value to the prayer?

The answer is "No". to start with, prayers are not exactly spiritual. Prayer is something you do for your own satisfaction, only to improve your mental strength.

You may know lot of students who prayed before going to the exam hall... I know students who read restricted literature before going to the hall.

What ever works for you, you have to figure it out. Hope you get the options before you start figuring it out.

( I can't edit this post. If there is something need editing, kindly let me know. The message can be posted after I change it. After all most others can edit. Since I can't edit, I am disadvantaged. Really I can't be judged in this way. Hope the sense of humor would be taken into account. ).

 

[tks]

Hi Prega!

I am not visiting this site as regularly as I used to, till some months ago, and that is because of my old age and health problems.
.
.
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In truth, "prayer" has very limited value only. So are all the external shows by way of devotion, including the 'Kavady'etc. But I have no idea about the general level of religious understanding about your people there in S.A. At the beginning level, all these external show of devotion, belief in ever so many deities, many stories (these are all mere stories - there is absolutely no evidence to show that any of the accounts regarding origin of Shivaraatri or any of our similar types of festivals like Ramanavami, Holi, Deepaavali etc.

Sri Sangom - Nice to see your participation now and then. Hope your health problems are under control. 72 is young age by today's standard - perhaps when you are 90+ you could say you are getting older


I think you gave a direct answer for question about the rituals for the OP. That is great indeed.

I wanted to respond and add to your last part which is an opinion piece.


Many festivals and significance associated in our traditions through stories may not have historical evidence.

The key point to appreciate is that such a history is irrelevant in Hindu thinking.

Unlike biblical religions that are history centric, our traditions are based on significance associated with a story.

Such a significance can be examined for value here and now regardless of how they originated. The significance when properly explained can guide our day to day life.

Sri Rama may be a historical figure but celebrations of Ramanavami has more to do with what Rama stood for as understood in an idealized sense.

The qualities attributed to Sri Rama may or may not have any reality to the historical figure but that is irrelevant for one to celebrate Ramanavami which is about celebrating a life an ideal Dharmic figure whose teaching by what he stood for has value for us today. For many such a person is a form of Isvara and an avatara.

Due to the influence of western thinking, many in India are trying to question historical accuracy of Puranic stories. They get caught into literal thinking and miss the significance which is where one may be able to derive value here and now.

Our ancestors never cared for history. History is like documenting a dream for years and has little value.

 

[prasad1]

Sri Sangom - Nice to see your participation now and then. Hope your health problems are under control. 72 is young age by today's standard - perhaps when you are 90+ you could say you are getting older


I think you gave a direct answer for question about the rituals for the OP. That is great indeed.

I wanted to respond and add to your last part which is an opinion piece.


Many festivals and significance associated in our traditions through stories may not have historical evidence.

The key point to appreciate is that such a history is irrelevant in Hindu thinking.

Unlike biblical religions that are history centric, our traditions are based on significance associated with a story.

Such a significance can be examined for value here and now regardless of how they originated. The significance when properly explained can guide our day to day life.

Sri Rama may be a historical figure but celebrations of Ramanavami has more to do with what Rama stood for as understood in an idealized sense.

The qualities attributed to Sri Rama may or may not have any reality to the historical figure but that is irrelevant for one to celebrate Ramanavami which is about celebrating a life an ideal Dharmic figure whose teaching by what he stood for has value for us today. For many such a person is a form of Isvara and an avatara.

Due to the influence of western thinking, many in India are trying to question historical accuracy of Puranic stories. They get caught into literal thinking and miss the significance which is where one may be able to derive value here and now.

Our ancestors never cared for history. History is like documenting a dream for years and has little value.

I whole heartedly endorse this post.
I too wish to convey the message to Sangomji, that we miss his wisdom and wise council.