countercurrents

[kunjuppu]

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i am definitely not peddling this magazine. it is a left of centre anti american pseudo-secular internet rag, which i would studiously avoid but for some catchy titles of articles, which on further investigation, were not worth my time.

i came across the countercurrents by chance.

of particular interest was this article. basically it is about casteism in islam. from the viewpoint of an islamic reformer.

Caste And Caste-Based Discrimination Among Indian Muslims - Part 1

in part 1 of the 4 part article, two things caught my attention:

1) the level of intensity in proselytizing of islam among dalits. especially the total outselling of the varna system as it exists now, its historical antecedents and the victimization of the dalits through and through.

as #1 on the varna ladder we have no counter arguements. we can point fingers at indian islam and accuse them of casteism, as is evidenced by this reformer. but what is interesting, is all along the invocation of the moral authority derived from quoran re uncompromising belief in the equality of all humans. interestingly, the existence of indoislamic-casteism is attributed to the influence of hindus.

2) the second undercurrent, more worrysome may be in the future, is the tones of founding an islamic india. not all that absurd, if we turn back our history books, and note that till the british landed, muslims ruled almost all of india, albeit fragmented.

in 1986, when i visited paris france, we stayed in a hotel manned by arab staff. late into the nights these used to aruge about how to establish an islamic mediterranean. today, with huge muslim populations all over europe, and falling white birthrates, many are predicting an islamic europe in 100 years. ofcourse none of us will be around to witness it, if it ever so happens, and also the guaranteed bloody transformation.

something to chew about, on those dull lazy summer nights, when sleep evades us.

 

[biswa]

Interesting. I decided I had enough of the Poonam Pandey thread to jump into another of Mr. Kunjuppu's threads.

In my mind, casteism is something fundamental to the fragile human psyche. It is simply a matter of us vs. them whether it is Brahmin vs non-Brahmin, Hindu vs Muslim, black vs white or even male vs female. The limited human mind is simply not able to absorb or tolerate the differences and instead focus on the infinite similarity. After all, since 99% of the human genome is the same as chimpanzees, the similarity within humans must be 99.99% Yet for many the 0.01% seems to matter.

Ok perhaps the male vs female genetic distance is greater than 0.01% :dance:

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Kunjuppu, greetings.

1) the level of intensity in proselytizing of islam among dalits. especially the total outselling of the varna system as it exists now, its historical antecedents and the victimization of the dalits through and through.

as #1 on the varna ladder we have no counter arguements. we can point fingers at indian [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]islam[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] and accuse them of casteism, as is evidenced by this reformer. but what is interesting, is all along the invocation of the moral authority derived from quoran re uncompromising belief in the equality of all humans.

U wsed to frequent Bangladeshi Forum in the past. Muslims over there mentioned much about castism amoung Muslims. There is no such thing as 'uncompromising belief of all human beings'; Quran considers only Muslims as human beings. People of the book, Jews and Christians can be Dhimmis, a step lower than a 'free human being'; the rest of the human beings like Hindus, Budhiists, agnostics, atheists, apostates are considered as 'naji' or filthy and they all are considered as less than human beings. In reality, even amoung Muslims, equality is not practised. Granted, they all are made to feel equal in the confines of the mosque; for all practical purposesonce outside, such equalities don't really apply.

....the second undercurrent, more worrysome may be in the future, is the tones of founding an islamic india.

Every Muslim has an obligation to strive to bring the whole world under Allah's rule; or for practical purposes, under an Allah's representative's rule ( such representative can only be an Arab) by 'hook or crook'. They just work towards saving their skins (I mean literelly) on the judgement day.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Biswa, Greetings.

......It is simply a matter of us vs. them

Castism is not fundemental human psyche. It is not natural either. Are you going to say a 'higher caste born' person would have fundemental human psyche to ill treat a 'lower caste born' person? I beg to disagree, please. The natural human psyche is, when we see human being, we just see human being. Period. Learned and influenced psyche is to question such persons caste, religion, nationality etc. Also we learn to gauge a person's wealth by his/her appearence, cloths on their backs (most often than not, we fail in such assertions, seldom agree the failure).

casteism is not a fundemental human psyche. We, the human beings 'developed' a 'us vs them' feelings amoung us, the human beings.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Humans (and most probably all living things, for that matter) have the in-built sense of "I" and "not I", "mine" and "not mine" as a by-product of the very phenomenon called life. This "I" sense in its normal evolutionistic dose, serves to preserve the living being and safeguard itself from dangers and potential dangers. (But when the I-sense goes overboard the people become ophthalmologists — "I"-specialists, or egotistic ).

The "mine" consciousness must have extended from the most primitive humans from those of one's own self, i.e., one's own body and its needs only, progressively to cover the sexual mate, then to the offsprings and then to the descendants. As a corollary, the very many members who descended from one pair or one male and his mates (we may assume male -orientation in those primitive days from what we see in later ancient societies), might have imbibed a small amount of "mine" feelings towards the rest of that group, though in a very diluted sense. In course of time this could develop into "Kula" consciousness, then a larger "gotra" feeling of various "kulas" opting to live in harmony with each other and so on.

Caste or Class is IMHO a later manifestation of the feeling of exclusivity graduating from the gotra feeling on to a larger framework. We have similar segregationist feelings based on country, language and many other criteria which can all be traced to the essential "I" & "mine" senses ingrained as a part of the phenomenon of life itself.

It is, therefore, necessary that mankind learns to shed this "I" & "mine" feelings at the macro-level. This is possible through modern scientific education and outlook only; religions do not teach this universal love and empathy though they may wax eloquent about the essential equality of man and "everything is brahman" etc. To a large extent the religions pay lip service only to such ideals.

Christians, Muslims, Sikhs etc., who were converts from hindus have unknowingly carried their caste-tag to their new religions also. There are two main reasons for this IMO; one, the higher caste converts prefer to perpetuate their old superiority in their new milieu as well, and, two, even the original Muslims, Christians who came from abroad, were influenced sufficiently by the caste structure of the hindus and sought to place themselves along with the top echelons of their own folks.

 

[sravna]

I would like to differ from Shri.Sangom's views that it is possible to shed the feeling of "I" from the human psyche and that scientific education can help in doing that.

The reason I disagree is because science teaches us to analyse and an analytical mindset is not suited for the above objective. I think that is one of the reasons you see a number of atheists among scientists as they develop a big ego and cannot even accept the concept of God as it implies something superior to them. I do not understand what you mean when you say that religion pays only lip service in shedding the feeling of "I". Only self effort will help you in this goal. You can only be shown the path. At least religion shows you the right path.

Anyway shedding of "I" is the ultimate holy grail. It is what the life and all the experiences are for. I adhere to the hindu philosophy that you need to go through a number of births to attain that objective and something that is not possible in a single life for a man born with ego.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sravana Sir,

Greetings. I agree with Sri.Sangom's POV. Religions only pay 'lip service' when they talk about 'universal love'; in reality, religions only promote 'us vs them' mentality. Unfortunately, Hinduism goes one step lower; there is 'us vs them' mentality even amoung Hindus based on castes.

One has to elevate oneself above the level of religions. Only when one can see everyone amoung human beings as only 'us', not 'them' at all, there can be a possibility of 'universal love'.

At a personal level, I could shed all ataachments and try to clear away the "I and Mine' feeling; but, still I may be seen by others as 'them'. Still 'universal love' maynot be possible if it gets extended from one side only. One sided universal love may not get too far. For a serene harmony, it should be felt by all and sundries.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Sri.Sravana Sir,

Greetings. I agree with Sri.Sangom's POV. Religions only pay 'lip service' when they talk about 'universal love'; in reality, religions only promote 'us vs them' mentality. Unfortunately, Hinduism goes one step lower; there is 'us vs them' mentality even amoung Hindus based on castes.

One has to elevate oneself above the level of religions. Only when one can see everyone amoung human beings as only 'us', not 'them' at all, there can be a possibility of 'universal love'.

At a personal level, I could shed all ataachments and try to clear away the "I and Mine' feeling; but, still I may be seen by others as 'them'. Still 'universal love' maynot be possible if it gets extended from one side only. One sided universal love may not get too far. For a serene harmony, it should be felt by all and sundries.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

More than anything else it is the greed for money that has paved the way for degradation of human values and treating others as not equals. By its very nature materialism strikes at the heart of human values and encourages selfish tendencies. On the other hand the famously denounced varna classification is based on spiritual attributes which by its nature is accomadative. The fact that the caste system has earned notoriety is not because of the its inherent features but because the way it was actually practiced. Unlike the class system the varna system is not fundamentally flawed. By tuning it to be with the times it can stop the rot in human values.

As I understand it and as stated in one of my posts, varna classification is based on spiritual or moral or higher intelligence whereas now we find classifications based on analytical or lower intelligence. Spiritual classifuication need not be based on birth if we have a way to identify finer qualities just like the IQ tests.

 

[kunjuppu]

...As I understand it and as stated in one of my posts, varna classification is based on spiritual or moral or higher intelligence whereas now we find classifications based on analytical or lower intelligence. Spiritual classifuication need not be based on birth if we have a way to identify finer qualities just like the IQ tests.

dear sravana,

knowing human nature, and assuming that it was basically the same over the milleniums, i think the varna system was a an effort to hide an ugly thing under the cover of spirituality. give anything a godhead, and it becomes a jihad. except our jihads have been very subtle and very high sounding. something like that gundoosi thrust into the banana... smooth, absolute and utterly devastating the fruit.

 

[nachi naga]

whenever humans organise bliss,it ends up being a chaos.Religion is a product of man/woman/child etc.Bliss is removing ignorance and that is the truth from time immemorial,imho.

 

[sravna]

dear sravana,

knowing human nature, and assuming that it was basically the same over the milleniums, i think the varna system was a an effort to hide an ugly thing under the cover of spirituality. give anything a godhead, and it becomes a jihad. except our jihads have been very subtle and very high sounding. something like that gundoosi thrust into the banana... smooth, absolute and utterly devastating the fruit.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

When you are talking of human nature I agree one is talking about something that is a given. But there is another aspect which is nurture. Would you not accept that at least among people who cannot be classified as neither wicked nor compassionate will respond positively under the right circumstances? I assume human nature varies between the extremes of wickedness and compassion. So it is necessary to develop the right system to not let a pervasive corruption of minds happen. Spiritual system does exactly this as opposed to materialism which quickly spreads the rot.

I think there is no reason to suspect the motives of the people who developed the varna system. I think one could not have done better. Extreme Materialism as we see today has been there for only a few decades and we see what it has done to the minds of the people. People live only for themselves and they don't trust one another. So as the physical comforts have risen, the mind seems to be losing its comforts.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Raghy,

More than anything else it is the greed for money that has paved the way for degradation of human values and treating others as not equals. By its very nature materialism strikes at the heart of human values and encourages selfish tendencies. On the other hand the famously denounced varna classification is based on spiritual attributes which by its nature is accomadative. The fact that the caste system has earned notoriety is not because of the its inherent features but because the way it was actually practiced. Unlike the class system the varna system is not fundamentally flawed. By tuning it to be with the times it can stop the rot in human values.

As I understand it and as stated in one of my posts, varna classification is based on spiritual or moral or higher intelligence whereas now we find classifications based on analytical or lower intelligence. Spiritual classifuication need not be based on birth if we have a way to identify finer qualities just like the IQ tests.

Shri Sravna,

Fortuitously there is as yet no generally accepted way to classify the "spiritual" classification of humans, whatever you may be intending by that term. But I suspect that your outpourings of the "spiritual"-based varna system etc., are due to a self-assessment that you yourself would be classified - if such an external agency were to come into being with a generally accepted way to measure the "spirituality" or whatever - as sufficiently high to deserve the brahman varna! But is there any guarantee?

 

[Nara]

Fortuitously there is as yet no generally accepted way to classify the "spiritual" classification of humans, whatever you may be intending by that term. But I suspect that your outpourings of the "spiritual"-based varna system etc., are due to a self-assessment that you yourself would be classified - if such an external agency were to come into being with a generally accepted way to measure the "spirituality" or whatever - as sufficiently high to deserve the brahman varna! But is there any guarantee?

Dear Shri sangom sir,

I don't understand this fixation with Varna system, birth-based or the so called spiritual IQ based. Why should humans be herded into this four categories? Do they all fit neatly into four predefined categories?

If there is something called spiritual intelligence, who decides what it is? Who decides how it would be recognized? What criteria would be used for this purpose? Who decides what these criteria would be? How would it be measured? Who would do the measuring? How would these examiners be selected? How would favoritism or nepotism be avoided in ascertaining the spiritual varna of a person?

When would these classifications be made, at what age? Would these classifications be final, or would it be possible for promotion or demotion based on future behavior? If it is permanent, that allows no possibility for growth. If promotion/demotion are allowed, how would that be implemented? When would it be made, at what age? How many times would an individual be allowed to change Varna? Who would make sure this process of reascertaining of varna is corruption free?

Above all, what is the need for this classification in the first place? What purpose would it serve?

This idea of spiritual-varna sounds well and good, but dig a little deeper, and you see it is no more useful or relevant than birth-based Varna, and no less pernicious. At least the birth-based varna has some definitiveness.

Is this not a sign of monumental ego to first think that there is something called spiritual intelligence, and then claim those who posses it are superior to those having normal intelligence? Is it not a sign of monumental ego to think one has to be religious to be moral and those without religion are given to ego and selfishness? Is it not a sign of monumental ego to posit an anthropomorphic god and claim this god's main concern is managing their affairs?

On the other hand, the rationalists and atheists readily admit to the insignificance of human existence, they marvel the variety and grandeur of nature, and try to understand it as best as they can. They are humble enough to admit they are not in possession of any esoteric special knowledge. They are humble to admit their knowledge is woefully inadequate to fully understand nature. They are humble enough to admit human knowledge may never be complete. They are humble enough to admit when they are wrong.

Even the agnostics -- these are not people who hedge on the existence of god, but they are ones who are certain that the existence of god can neither be proved nor disproved -- concede much of these. It is the religious who reek with ego and arrogance of certainty in the truth and the completeness of their "knowledge".

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri sangom sir,

I don't understand this fixation with Varna system, birth-based or the so called spiritual IQ based. Why should humans be herded into this four categories? Do they all fit neatly into four predefined categories?

Dear Shri Nara,

In my boyhood (around 10 or 11 years) whenever I used to recite aloud one tīkṣṇa daṃṣṭra kālabhairavāṣṭakam (it used to go like "yam yam yam yakṣarūpam daśadiśividitam bhūmi kampāyamānam, etc.") I used to feel somewhat elated and also feel assured that kālabhairava (identified with ṣiva) must have been immensely pleased with me . Of course, all these vanished as I grew up - as a normal tabra.

The point I want to stress is that there may be people (and I am sure many of our devout tabras do) who feel more or less the same sentiment, luckily, because god has not so far come and announced publicly the list of names about people with whom He is pleased and with whom He is mightily displeased ! (மகனே/மகளே உன் பக்திக்கு மெச்சினேன் ! என்ன வரம் வேண்டும் கேள் of the old Tamil movies!) People therefore carry their own subjective assessment of how god would feel about them and rate themselves accordingly (just as I felt kālabhairava would definitely be pleased with me for reciting that very difficult sloka.)

The notion of "spiritually higher", Sp.Q (Spiritual Quotient), more spiritually evolved, etc., are equally subjective self-evaluation of people. Some gurus, swamis, godmen also seem to have such high opinion about themselves and sometimes this autosuggestion is so overpowering that it practically erases (at least seems to erase) any commonsense in such persons. A very good example is one well-known so-called spiritual personality from TN who thought he was the very incarnation of Krishna and married several tabra girls in the same venue, long years back

This Krishna model seems to be the most popular of this genre and also the most risky ! Shri B. Krishnamurthy had written of one swami/godman who is serving a jail term in US; IMHO that godman must have also had the "Krishn ka bhoot dimaag meim chaDh gaya" syndrome! (The bhoot of Krishna got into the brain.)

The equation of varna with Sp. Q. etc., arise when a person normally feels he/she has become sufficiently spiritual. I feel that such liberties should be allowed in a democracy like India because, suppose god comes and announces Nara to be the best person God loves, all the rest (including me!) will die of heart break

 

[Nara]

... one well-known so-called spiritual personality from TN who thought he was the very incarnation of Krishna and married several tabra girls in the same venue, long years back

Dear Sangom sir, if he imagined himself to be Krishna, he should take already married women into his love nest, no? Marrying is so, so, so, human, isn't?

..... suppose god comes and announces Nara to be the best person God loves, all the rest (including me!) will die of heart break

I would be the first to die, for god himself would have proved me wrong about his existence .

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom, Shri Nara,

If the meaning of the term spirituality is unclear, let me clarify that it is the exact opposite of materialism. Whereas materialism lets you seek the external, spirituality advocates you to shun the external. Even with regard to knowledge, spirituality advocates "inner" knowledge or knowledge though sheer intuition. This in my opinion is the essence of spirituality. By shunning the external or at least having the capability to be unaffected by it, we get inner peace and by gaining knowledge through only intuition we get the conviction in what we do.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom, Shri Nara,

If the meaning of the term spirituality is unclear, let me clarify that it is the exact opposite of materialism. Whereas materialism lets you seek the external, spirituality advocates you to shun the external. Even with regard to knowledge, spirituality advocates "inner" knowledge or knowledge though sheer intuition. This in my opinion is the essence of spirituality. By shunning the external or at least having the capability to be unaffected by it, we get inner peace and by gaining knowledge through only intuition we get the conviction in what we do.

Dear Shri Sravna,

The rigveda does not categorically advise shunning "materialism", if it is meant to show an abhorrence to any material possession. There are many verses therein praying for many cattle, jewels and all that. Even the yajurvedic mantras do give the impression that asking for material possessions was not allowed. It was only the counter-thought processes as reflected in the some of the upanishads (which might have played a role in the origin of Buddhism) that there is a pre-occupation with the "spirit" so to say.

If we therefore go by the obsession with the "spirit" or atma and abhorrence of all material possessions, many of the people like Yajnavalkya — ரெண்டு பொண்டாட்டி as Senthil said in one movie, lot of moneys, etc., — will get disqualified for any higher varna, I would say. Nachiketa's father Vājashravasa would be ranked very very low in Sp. Q., and so on. Coming down to recent periods I wonder whether any tabra would have been given a sufficiently high rating because, although many tabras were very poor and were just eking out a bare living, they were very much after material progress, not spiritual progress, IMO.

If the proposed Sp.Q. + Varna system comes into practice, most tabras (including me, of course) will be demoted to Chandalas, I am sure.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

The rigveda does not categorically advise shunning "materialism", if it is meant to show an abhorrence to any material possession. There are many verses therein praying for many cattle, jewels and all that. Even the yajurvedic mantras do give the impression that asking for material possessions was not allowed. It was only the counter-thought processes as reflected in the some of the upanishads (which might have played a role in the origin of Buddhism) that there is a pre-occupation with the "spirit" so to say.

If we therefore go by the obsession with the "spirit" or atma and abhorrence of all material possessions, many of the people like Yajnavalkya — ரெண்டு பொண்டாட்டி as Senthil said in one movie, lot of moneys, etc., — will get disqualified for any higher varna, I would say. Nachiketa's father Vājashravasa would be ranked very very low in Sp. Q., and so on. Coming down to recent periods I wonder whether any tabra would have been given a sufficiently high rating because, although many tabras were very poor and were just eking out a bare living, they were very much after material progress, not spiritual progress, IMO.

If the proposed Sp.Q. + Varna system comes into practice, most tabras (including me, of course) will be demoted to Chandalas, I am sure.

Dear Shri Sangom,

Let me first confess I do not have the required knowledge to get in to a debate with you on what the vedas say. But is it not possible that you progress by steps before accomplishing enlightenment? So goals could be set for people based on which point they are at? Acquiring wealth could be one of them. There is something like one of four goals that one could possibly set for him in a life? But I know that the vedas unambiguosly say that total detachment from the wordly things is the final goal. The earlier ones probably set up your mind for that.

Shri Sangom, I believe that means is lot less important than the goal. So I would say that you may even pursue wealth through a very worldly job but what is much more important is what for are you pursuing it? So interpreting the lives of spiritual figures is better done by asking whether they were in spirit acting contrary to good principles.

Regarding the modern tabras, they have been overwhelmed by the force of this era. There are probably others too who are not brahmins who have changed in similar ways. People are becoming lot more similar to one another with the only goal being that of attaining affluence and status in society. I think the world badly needs good role models. The world has to be shown that it is possible for one's mind to help one stand by his conviction and succeed even in face of great adversities. Resisting of temptations is something which should be viewed positively.And I think the spiritually strong people can exactly be that role models to guide the world to that mindset and lead it into a peaceful future.

I understand that not all can achieve the above goal. But these spiritual people should be the ones who would provide the guidance to the rest. Therefore it would be a real tragedy to the world if what little is left of spirituality also gets dissipated.

 

[nachi naga]

spiritual quotient or intelligence,is an experiential phenomena,subjected to an individual.This cannot be expressed to anyone because of the unique nature of its quality.varna system is basically given and told by lord krishna to arjuna,even though it existed much before the lord incarnated the eighth time.Now,lord krishna is my ishta devata,for he is sampoorna avataram,his blessings and grace comes genuinely at the nick of the moment for me.Its faith,thats all it is there to it.shraddha and saburi,as the guru sai baba has said.

 

[Nara]

....If the meaning of the term spirituality is unclear, let me clarify that it is the exact opposite of materialism..

Thank you sravna for the clarification. When we say "whatever it means" in reference to spirituality, it is not because we don't know what you mean by the term, we do, it is just that what you call spirituality, inner knowledge, etc., are untenable concepts.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Thank you sravna for the clarification. When we say "whatever it means" in reference to spirituality, it is not because we don't know what you mean by the term, we do, it is just that what you call spirituality, inner knowledge, etc., are untenable concepts.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Does something become untenable just because it cannot be seen by the eyes or detected by a physical device? It is the mind that makes the ultimate sense of everything. The fact that the mental realm is not a reality and only a perception causes the problem. That is every human sees the same physical reality but not the same mental reality. Some see mental reality better than others. As it is an individual experience and not a reality the experiences cannot be verified in the same manner as physical phenomenon can be. But in my opinion they indeed are more reliable than physical evidence.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Nara,

Does something become untenable just because it cannot be seen by the eyes or detected by a physical device? It is the mind that makes the ultimate sense of everything. The fact that the mental realm is not a reality and only a perception causes the problem. That is every human sees the same physical reality but not the same mental reality. Some see mental reality better than others. As it is an individual experience and not a reality the experiences cannot be verified in the same manner as physical phenomenon can be. But in my opinion they indeed are more reliable than physical evidence.

Dear Shri Sravna,

Mind, according to me, is a very unreliable guide except for emotions. I suppose even AdiSankara says, in connection with his "rajju sarpa" that it is the buddhi or intellect which has to show the distiction between the rajju which is real (again comparatively, because according to Sankara this world itself is unreal!) and the sarpa which is imagined mentally. Hence it may not be correct to project the mind, mental, etc., in relation to "truth".

I would like to know your views.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

Mind, according to me, is a very unreliable guide except for emotions. I suppose even AdiSankara says, in connection with his "rajju sarpa" that it is the buddhi or intellect which has to show the distiction between the rajju which is real (again comparatively, because according to Sankara this world itself is unreal!) and the sarpa which is imagined mentally. Hence it may not be correct to project the mind, mental, etc., in relation to "truth".

I would like to know your views.

Rope and snake illusion is something that explains how real knowledge can dispel maya. Truth cannot be perceived if the mind is not perfect. It is like seeing a snake when there is only the rope. That is also the reason why what is sensed by the mind is a perception. You cannot be as sure as in the case of a perceiving a physical reality except in an enlightened mind where there is no illusion of a snake but only the reality. The example is only to illustrate the effects of maya on the mind.

 

[Nara]

.....Does something become untenable just because it cannot be seen by the eyes or detected by a physical device?....

sravna, I think I have already said enough on this matter here.

Cheers!