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Dasavatharams of Lord Vishnu

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CLN

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I have some basic doubts, pestering me for long about the ten Avatars of Lord Vishnu. At the outset, I wish to make it very clear that these doubts are very genuine and my longing to know the answers also is very genuine. So I plead indulgence of all learned readers to show patience with me and answer me if they can, but not to castigate me simply for raising these doubts. I am listing them out below, requesting clarification:

1. Why ten, in the first place? If it is a question of one or two per Yuga, then ten is too many. On the other hand, if Kali Yuga is believed to be the time when adharmams and akramams will be on the increase, then logically, there should be more avatars in Kaliyuga than in any other, as pronounced by Himself in “Parithraanaaya Saadhoonaam … Sambhavaami Yuge Yuge” But, even the only one allotted is in dispute, with claims of several people claiming to be Kalki Bhagawans, while there is a general belief that the Avathaaram is due only after several years.

2. Some have even ventured to interpret the avatars, I guess, as a symbolic description of the Theory of Evolution, according to which Matsyavataram refers to aquatic life, which is believed to have originated first; Koormavataram refers to amphibians which came next; Varahavataram refers to mammalia barring man; Nrsimmavataram is perhaps the transition from animal to man; Vaamanavataram, the Pygmy man; Parasurama was a strong but primitive early man; then came Rama, a completely civilized man. I am not very clear how the remaining three avatars get interpreted in this evolutionary ladder.

3. The first five avatars seem to be only short-lived and action-specific. The Lord came in the form of a fish only to retrieve the Vedas stolen by an asura who was hiding in the ocean; nothing more is heard of this avataram, Perhaps, the purpose was over and the Lord went back to his abode. Later, he took on the form of a tortoise to act as a fulcrum for the great churning of the Ocean of Milk by Devas and Asuras. It also ended when several things started coming out of the ocean, two notable items being Goddess Lakshmi, whom Lord Vishnu Himself took as His consort and Amrutham which He distributed among the Devas, by tricking and fooling the Asuras. (I also do not understand why the Mohini Avataram he took on the same occasion is not counted at all among the listed Avatars at all. Then came Varahavataram in which the Lord in the form of a boar dived deep into the ocean to retrieve Earth lying at the bottom of a swollen ocean – interesting, because the concept of Earth being round seems to be inherent here, in contrast to the western thought till as recently as some 500 years or so ago, that it is flat! The Avatar also served the purpose of exterminating Hiranyaksha, to vanquish whose brother Hiranyakasibu the Lord took the next Avatar – Nrsimhavataram. Then comes Vamanavataram where we find the Lord resorting to pure guile to trick His own pious devotee and the great grandson of the Narasimhavataram-fame Prahlada, i.e., Mahabali, to relieve him of his entire kingdom and his head too to boot, just so Indra got back his kingdom! Incidentally, the Lilliputan like Vamanavataram is counted among the ten avatars, but NOT the Brobdingnag-like, or even much larger, Trivikramavataram which is NOT counted at all among the ten, I wonder why!

4. From the next Avatar onwards, I have more confusion. Out of two double avatars, only one has been included in some cases. Kurmavataram is in but Mohini Avataram is not; Vamanavataram is in but not Trivikramavataram. But when it comes to 'Rama', the son of Jamadagni and 'Rama', the son of Dasaratha, both are counted as Avatars; not only that, they even clashed with each other! The senior Rama outlives the junior to the extent of being found around even in the next Yuga, available to teach Dhanur Vidya to great yoddhas like Drona, Bheesma and Karna.

5. Then again, two simultaneous Avatars – Balarama and Krishna are generally included in the list, but there are people who replace Balarama by Buddha, moving Krishna to the eighth position vacated by Balarama and filling the ninth place by Buddha. More confusion here, is it not?

6. Another puzzling factor: Lakshmana, Rama’s younger brother and Balarama, Krishna’s elder brother, both are not the avatars of the Lord Himself, but they are avatars of his Divine Bed, i., Aadhisesha. But one of them is included in the list of Avatars of Lord Vishnu, but the other one is not! Why?

7. Who is the real Kalki Bhagwan? Has he come, or, is He yet to come? I am given to understand that there is also a belief going around among some Muslims that Prophet Muhammad himself is the Kalki Avatar.

8. Finally, why is Kalki Avatar the last avatar? Does this imply that men will all turn so virtuous when Kalki Avatar takes place (if it has not already taken place according to some beliefs!) that the good Lord need not take another Avatar, in the light of the famous Gita Shloka “Parithraanaaya Saadhoonaam … Sambhavaami Yuge Yuge”? I have heard some pravachanakartas aver that in Kaliyuga God guides humans only through mahapurushas. If that really is the case, what is the need and relevance at all of a special Avatar called Kalki Avatar in Kali Yuga?

9. The first five avatars, i.e 50 per cent of Dasavatharams seems to have taken place in the first Yuga – Kritha Yuga. The sixth and seventh seem to have taken place in Thretha Yuga, though, as I pointed out in Item 4 above, we find Parasurama appearing again in Dwaapara Yuga also, in which Balarama and Krishna appeared. While the time spans of the four yugas is considered to decrease in the ratio of 4 : 3 : 2 : 1, the “quality of godliness” of people living in the four yugas is also believed to decrease in the same ratio. If so, the need of the Lord to take avatars should in fact be in the reverse ratio, i.e., 1 : 2 : 3 : 4, if at all the Geetha Shloka “Parithraanaaya Sadhonaam” is to be taken seriously.

Can I have real and sensible answers to my above queries, instead of mere admonishments for my “cheek” in asking such questions? As I mentioned in the beginning itself, I am NOT interested in questioning or criticizing anything or anybody. I am only beseeching everybody to bear with me and give me honest answers.
 
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Dear CLN sir, mine is probably going to be the first response to your question, that is just as well as it is certainly not going to be the best :)

1. Why ten, in the first place?
There are actually many, many avatharas. SVs categorize them into 5 groups, (i) Para avathyara, (2) Vyuha avathara, (3) Vibhava avathara, (4) Antharyami roopam, and (5) Archa. Of these, the vibhava avatharas are the Rama, Krishna, etc. There are about 32 or so of them, of which 10 are considered important. Why 10 are important, not 12 or 8, I don't know.

2. Some have even ventured to interpret the avatars, I guess, as a symbolic description of the Theory of Evolution, according to which Matsyavataram refers
According to SV theology, Varaha avathara is the first one, not matsya. IMO, mapping the 10 avatharas to evolution is lame.

3. Vamanavataram is counted among the ten avatars, but NOT the , Trivikramavataram
AFAIK, these two come in one package. They both are counted as a single avathara.

4. From the next Avatar onwards,
There was no question here, so I will skip this one.

5. Then again, two simultaneous Avatars – Balarama and Krishna are generally included in the list, but there are people who replace Balarama by Buddha, moving Krishna to the eighth position vacated by Balarama and filling the ninth place by Buddha. More confusion here, is it not?
Not all avatharas are the same, some are poorna avathara and others are avesha avathara. Nrisimha, Rama and Krishna are poorna avatharas. Parasurama and Balarama are examples of avesha avathra.

SVs consider Buddha as an avathara, but not one of the 10. SVs claim Vishnu had some diabolical goals when he came as Buddha, to teach falsehood to asuras and lead them astray -- not a very nice thing to say about Buddha, is it?

6. Another puzzling factor: Lakshmana, Rama’s younger brother and Balarama, Krishna’s elder brother, both are not the avatars of the Lord Himself, but they are avatars of his Divine Bed, i., Aadhisesha. But one of them is included in the list of Avatars of Lord Vishnu, but the other one is not! Why?
Now you are asking too many questions, are you a DK sympathizer/supporter?

7. Who is the real Kalki Bhagwan? Has he come, or, is He yet to come? I am given to understand that there is also a belief going around among some Muslims that Prophet Muhammad himself is the Kalki Avatar.
Didn't you know, he is in Chennai, read all about him here.

8. Finally, why is Kalki Avatar the last avatar?
After that, mahapralayam and the cycle starts over again.

9. The first five avatars, i.e 50 per cent of Dasavatharams seems to have taken place in the first Yuga – Kritha Yuga.
These are just made up stories and made up time line. Human existence is roughly 100,000 years in this planet. There was no such thing as Kritha yuga etc., when humans existed.

Can I have real and sensible answers to my above queries,
Oops, you want sensible answers, sorry!!
 
I have some basic doubts, pestering me for long about the ten Avatars of Lord Vishnu. At the outset, I wish to make it very clear that these doubts are very genuine and my longing to know the answers also is very genuine. So I plead indulgence of all learned readers to show patience with me and answer me if they can, but not to castigate me simply for raising these doubts. I am listing them out below, requesting clarification:

1. Why ten, in the first place? If it is a question of one or two per Yuga, then ten is too many. On the other hand, if Kali Yuga is believed to be the time when adharmams and akramams will be on the increase, then logically, there should be more avatars in Kaliyuga than in any other, as pronounced by Himself in “Parithraanaaya Saadhoonaam … Sambhavaami Yuge Yuge” But, even the only one allotted is in dispute, with claims of several people claiming to be Kalki Bhagawans, while there is a general belief that the Avathaaram is due only after several years.

2. Some have even ventured to interpret the avatars, I guess, as a symbolic description of the Theory of Evolution, according to which Matsyavataram refers to aquatic life, which is believed to have originated first; Koormavataram refers to amphibians which came next; Varahavataram refers to mammalia barring man; Nrsimmavataram is perhaps the transition from animal to man; Vaamanavataram, the Pygmy man; Parasurama was a strong but primitive early man; then came Rama, a completely civilized man. I am not very clear how the remaining three avatars get interpreted in this evolutionary ladder.

3. The first five avatars seem to be only short-lived and action-specific. The Lord came in the form of a fish only to retrieve the Vedas stolen by an asura who was hiding in the ocean; nothing more is heard of this avataram, Perhaps, the purpose was over and the Lord went back to his abode. Later, he took on the form of a tortoise to act as a fulcrum for the great churning of the Ocean of Milk by Devas and Asuras. It also ended when several things started coming out of the ocean, two notable items being Goddess Lakshmi, whom Lord Vishnu Himself took as His consort and Amrutham which He distributed among the Devas, by tricking and fooling the Asuras. (I also do not understand why the Mohini Avataram he took on the same occasion is not counted at all among the listed Avatars at all. Then came Varahavataram in which the Lord in the form of a boar dived deep into the ocean to retrieve Earth lying at the bottom of a swollen ocean – interesting, because the concept of Earth being round seems to be inherent here, in contrast to the western thought till as recently as some 500 years or so ago, that it is flat! The Avatar also served the purpose of exterminating Hiranyaksha, to vanquish whose brother Hiranyakasibu the Lord took the next Avatar – Nrsimhavataram. Then comes Vamanavataram where we find the Lord resorting to pure guile to trick His own pious devotee and the great grandson of the Narasimhavataram-fame Prahlada, i.e., Mahabali, to relieve him of his entire kingdom and his head too to boot, just so Indra got back his kingdom! Incidentally, the Lilliputan like Vamanavataram is counted among the ten avatars, but NOT the Brobdingnag-like, or even much larger, Trivikramavataram which is NOT counted at all among the ten, I wonder why!

4. From the next Avatar onwards, I have more confusion. Out of two double avatars, only one has been included in some cases. Kurmavataram is in but Mohini Avataram is not; Vamanavataram is in but not Trivikramavataram. But when it comes to 'Rama', the son of Jamadagni and 'Rama', the son of Dasaratha, both are counted as Avatars; not only that, they even clashed with each other! The senior Rama outlives the junior to the extent of being found around even in the next Yuga, available to teach Dhanur Vidya to great yoddhas like Drona, Bheesma and Karna.

5. Then again, two simultaneous Avatars – Balarama and Krishna are generally included in the list, but there are people who replace Balarama by Buddha, moving Krishna to the eighth position vacated by Balarama and filling the ninth place by Buddha. More confusion here, is it not?

6. Another puzzling factor: Lakshmana, Rama’s younger brother and Balarama, Krishna’s elder brother, both are not the avatars of the Lord Himself, but they are avatars of his Divine Bed, i., Aadhisesha. But one of them is included in the list of Avatars of Lord Vishnu, but the other one is not! Why?

7. Who is the real Kalki Bhagwan? Has he come, or, is He yet to come? I am given to understand that there is also a belief going around among some Muslims that Prophet Muhammad himself is the Kalki Avatar.

8. Finally, why is Kalki Avatar the last avatar? Does this imply that men will all turn so virtuous when Kalki Avatar takes place (if it has not already taken place according to some beliefs!) that the good Lord need not take another Avatar, in the light of the famous Gita Shloka “Parithraanaaya Saadhoonaam … Sambhavaami Yuge Yuge”? I have heard some pravachanakartas aver that in Kaliyuga God guides humans only through mahapurushas. If that really is the case, what is the need and relevance at all of a special Avatar called Kalki Avatar in Kali Yuga?

9. The first five avatars, i.e 50 per cent of Dasavatharams seems to have taken place in the first Yuga – Kritha Yuga. The sixth and seventh seem to have taken place in Thretha Yuga, though, as I pointed out in Item 4 above, we find Parasurama appearing again in Dwaapara Yuga also, in which Balarama and Krishna appeared. While the time spans of the four yugas is considered to decrease in the ratio of 4 : 3 : 2 : 1, the “quality of godliness” of people living in the four yugas is also believed to decrease in the same ratio. If so, the need of the Lord to take avatars should in fact be in the reverse ratio, i.e., 1 : 2 : 3 : 4, if at all the Geetha Shloka “Parithraanaaya Sadhonaam” is to be taken seriously.

Can I have real and sensible answers to my above queries, instead of mere admonishments for my “cheek” in asking such questions? As I mentioned in the beginning itself, I am NOT interested in questioning or criticizing anything or anybody. I am only beseeching everybody to bear with me and give me honest answers.

Dear CLN,

The proper "brahmanic" reply/advice would be "புராணத்திலே சொல்லியிருக்கு, நாம்பள் நம்பணும். சும்மா விதண்டவாதம் பண்ணாதே.":)

But I am not saying that since I have some notions regarding how god was made to take avataars as and when it suited the purana writers.

My comments, succinctly:

1. matsya : Looks to me as though there was a time before vedas came into being (although these are now believed to be eternal, apourusheya, etc.) Just to make up for memories of the pre-veda past, an asura was invented and made to "steal" the vedas; if the vedas are eternal vibrations in the ether circling the universe, which only the rishis' superhuman abilities could 'catch, decipher and deliver in sanskrit', why an avataar was required for recovering it at all? The rishis could very well have intercepted the vibrations once (or many more times) again and brought out a new edition!!

2. koorma : I have always wondered why all other parties to the amrut manthan could stand without support whereas only the churner (மத்து) needed a firm support. May be our purana scribes found tortoises very absorbing sight and incorporated it.

3. varaha : There seems to be no clear statement about earth being a globe here. The stipulation of eight dikpalas would point to a flat earth concept with four cardinal points and four inter-cardinal points and one deity guarding each. With a globe it would have been at best four only — the four cardinal points or directions.

4. narasimha : Why could god not take tiger-man, bear-man or cheetah-man? perhaps Hiranyakasipu was after all such a coward that he got the fright of his life by seeing a lion-masked person. The best is the reason for the avataar - to kill a person who claimed he was god and he alone should be worshipped by his subjects. Curiously, the same vishnu seems to have become utterly powerless - or entirely cooperative - when some modern day gurus. swamis.and babas declare that they are god and happily amass wealth as well as followers!

5. vaamana : Here the Kerala tradition of Onam points to the high probability of one tribal chief being tricked to his oblivion from the face of the earth and a subsequent concession allowed by some ruler to celebrate the memories of the golden age. krishna carried on this legacy of vanquishing the enemies by tricking. In this avataar we can trace a rigvedic reference to vishnu taking three padas around the earth.

6.parasuraama : Scholarly opinion is more or less unanimous that this relates to tensions between the ruling and priestly classes and (probably) the win of the latter over the former. He lived through many more avataars - vaamana, (because Kerala was raised from the sea by parasurama), rama, balarama and krishna (karna episode, remember?)

7. sreerama : valmiki's simple epic hero - perhaps a tribal memory since valmiki himself was a hunter - made into a god by suitable adjustments. I would say Goebbels must have studied Ramayana very carefully!!

8 & 9. balabhadra and krishna : krishna steals the show. Why balabhadra was brought in as a "side-kick" needs further research. Clearly this is the first attempt to beatify or elevate a yadava into the galaxy of avataars. By the interplay of historical factors krishna overgrew vishnu himself and has now become the Supreme godhead for gaudiyas (ISKCONites)!! And Radha is superior to even that krishna for some others!!!

10. kalki :
This is the future avataar which may or may not come true, like meteorological predictions. But in the 20th. and 21st. centuries we may see many kalkis - besides the weekly - and may have to wait for the last edition of kalki!!
 
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Dear Shri Nara ji,

Thank you for your very quick response. You have answered quite a few questions raised by me in your own inimitable style!

Now you are asking too many questions, are you a DK sympathizer/supporter?
Ha Ha Ha! I am certainly not. It is a genuine doubt. Let us see whether any of our other friends come up with an answer to that one.

Didn't you know, he is in Chennai, read all about him here.
I guess, perhaps, with population increasing enormously and adharmam increasing even at a faster rate in the world the good Lord must have felt it expeditious to make several Kalki Avatars at different times and places. I think we "Chennaiites" should take real pride in alarming Him so much that he made His avatar in Chennai. WE must be the toppers in the Celestial Crime Book of Records! :) ;)
 
Dear Sangom ji,

Thanks for all the interesting informations.
2. koorma : I have always wondered why all other parties to the amrut manthan could stand without support whereas only the churner (மத்து) needed a firm support. May be our purana scribes found tortoises very absorbing sight and incorporated it.

I guess the role of the tortoise was to provide a convex surface to put the Meru Parvatam on so that there would be only minimum friction while churning. A flat surface would have produced much greater friction. But I still wonder what arrangement was actually done to hold the peak of the mountain at the top in place, lest it should wobble uncontrollably while churning!

3. varaha : There seems to be no clear statement about earth being a globe here. The stipulation of eight dikpalas would point to a flat earth concept with four cardinal points and four inter-cardinal points and one deity guarding each. With a globe it would have been at best four only — the four cardinal points or directions.

I had assumed by looking at the pictures and statues of Varahavatara found in temples and books where the boar-faced God is seen balancing a spherical earth with his tuskers that the round shape of Earth was known to our ancestors in the distant past itself.

rama, balarama and krishna (karna episode, remember?)

Sure! Parasurama, being thought to be a chiranjeevi, no wonder he seems to be popping up in many events and places! I have also mentioned his having taught Dhanur Vidya to Drona, Bhisma and Karna in my Query #4. I guess I can take some special pride in Parasurama (i.e Bhargava) because he is one of the five Rishis in my Gotram too!
 
Dear Shri CLN,

One would notice that there is an increasing use of the divine nature in the avatars. Also as you pointed out the purpose seems to progress from very specific to a general one. Thus in the first avatar the Lord takes the form of a fish for a specific purpose, in the avatar as Krishna, the divine qualities are exhibited much more than in the previous avatars and the purpose is also of a more general nature in the restoring of dharma. In the kali yuga, one would assume the employment of the divine nature would be the most and the problem He addresses would be the most general, which is deep rooted and pervasive adharma.

I would also assume that Lord Vishnu also has to be wilier in the later yugas. We see this in the Krishna avatar. This I think would be because the people in the later yugas lose their ability to grasp subtle truths directly as perversions would have crept into their minds.

There is not just one kali yuga but a number of them in the life span of the universe. After kali yuga the cycle starts again with satya yuga. I think Lord would appear in a yuga when the adharma pertaining to that yuga is total or when adharma in that yuga is at the peak. So we see the avatar only once in the kali yuga.
 
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It also seems to me that the emphasis in the later yugas is more on setting the mind right rather than just physical destruction since the mind gets more and more corrupt. So we have the bhagavad gita in the krishna avatar during the dwapara yuga and probably a deeper addressing of the problem of mind happens in the kali yuga
 
sravna:
... probably a deeper addressing of the problem of mind happens in the kali yuga

Quite possible Shri Sravna ji!

Perhaps, God is manifesting Himself in the form of Forums like ours to create such "dharmic vichaaras" in the process of deeper addressing of the mind, because, every one of us, in a sense, is Arjuna in this Yuga and God is finding it expedient to manifest Himself in this way instead of taking an avatar in the conventional way like a single individual a la 'Rama' or 'Krishna', to guide us in the right direction!

After all, when ordinary folk like us can make use of the Internet to communicate so effectively with each other, can't the Supreme Lord Himself use it to guide and direct us in novel ways?
 
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Quite possible Shri Sravna ji!

Perhaps, God is manifesting Himself in the form of Forums like ours to create such "dharmic vichaaras" in the process of deeper addressing of the mind, because, every one of us, in a sense, is Arjuna in this Yuga and God is finding it expedient to manifest Himself in this way instead of taking an avatar in the conventional way like a single individual a la 'Rama' or 'Krishna', to guide us in the right direction!

After all, when ordinary folk like us can make use of the Internet to communicate so effectively with each other, can't the Supreme Lord Himself use it to guide and direct us in novel ways?

Dear Shri CLN,

My thoughts on what would happen in a kali yuga:

Though generally in all the kali yugas dharma is on the wane, it seems to me that it reaches a point of danger in one of them. The intelligence that rules kali yuga is the lower intelligence or the analytical intelligence. To complete the objective of learning and unlearning, the lower intelligence has to evolve through a kalpa and reaches its peak somewhere in the mid. From there to accomplish unlearning, the mind is subject to experiences which deflate the ego, and by the end of kalpa is cleared of all that was learnt earlier through its lower intelligence. Thus the most dangerous kali yuga is somewhere in the middle of the kalpa.

Let me try to list what would be the state of affairs in such a kali yuga.

1. People with the most evolved physical intelligence make up the universe
2. Almost nobody is able to see through the veil of maya and therefore all are affected by illusion
3. Illusion breeds more illusion and therefore people get trapped more and more.

In my opinion this kali yuga because of the above reasons listed has people with the strongest conviction in physical
reality. The objectives of God in this situation would be to get the people out of the vicious cycle. But Lord does not resort to using His powers to change the minds. That would not make sense. Therefore, it would seem that the kali yuga would be a microcosm of what actully happens in the natural course for an individual with peak physical intelligence and how the ego is actually and eventually removed. But only that it is at the level of the mind and the soul has still go through the natural process and benefit from the experiences that removed the symptoms of ego in the peak kali yuga.
 
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