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Does Britain owe a debt to India?

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There are a few members in this forum, who view the British Rule over India for nearly 200 years as unadulterated boon for the otherwise rustic Indian populace. Per them, India otherwise would have remained a barbaric state
even if it be thirtieth century, but for the providential intervention by the englishmen.

These Macaulay's children have also been asking for apologies from present day brahmins for the supposed atrocities committed by their forefathers on other varNa members, as recorded in vedas and puraNas. But about the britisher's rule in India they would quote an anonymous historian who exclaimed at the massacre of Indians
and hailed the white men at Battle of Plassey as "aaLa piRandhavan, aaNda piRandhavan"

How does the current Indian state and Indian people view the British rule? For a brief idea, please read:
Here's why Britain owes a debt to India - World - DNA
 
But, the total people's money squandered by our politicians, government and its authorities through scams, bribes [even from part of public-welfare taxes], would come out to be ten times more than that of loot of Sultanates, Moghuls and Britishers.

Now, the westerners have better sense of morality and ethics than our own brethren.
 
अपि किं वयं सर्वे अत्र अङ्ग्लभाषायां लिखामः

Translation: Why are we are all here typing in English?
 
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As a start, Britain can return the treasures it has shifted to england - Saraswati from Bhojshala, chola bronzes, kohinoor diamond etc.
The lost list is quite big.
 
We owe Great Britain for leaving an United India, good Administrative setup, organised Judiciary, English language. We must understand the History cannot be reversed. Many other invaders too plundered the wealth of Hindustan, when we did not have an India at that time.
 
We owe Great Britain for leaving an United India, good Administrative setup, organised Judiciary, English language. We must understand the History cannot be reversed. Many other invaders too plundered the wealth of Hindustan, when we did not have an India at that time.
hi
i think differently.....we owe british for creation of pakistan.....otherwise as big hindusthan have another head ache

of muslim problems.....
 
There are a few members in this forum, who view the British Rule over India for nearly 200 years as unadulterated boon for the otherwise rustic Indian populace. Per them, India otherwise would have remained a barbaric state
even if it be thirtieth century, but for the providential intervention by the englishmen.

These Macaulay's children have also been asking for apologies from present day brahmins for the supposed atrocities committed by their forefathers on other varNa members, as recorded in vedas and puraNas. But about the britisher's rule in India they would quote an anonymous historian who exclaimed at the massacre of Indians
and hailed the white men at Battle of Plassey as "aaLa piRandhavan, aaNda piRandhavan"

How does the current Indian state and Indian people view the British rule? For a brief idea, please read:
Here's why Britain owes a debt to India - World - DNA

Dear Shri Narayanan,

I am one of your "Macaulay's half-children" if I may say so. I endorse fully, the first part of your post viz., "There are a few members in this forum, who view the British Rule over India for nearly 200 years as unadulterated boon for the otherwise rustic Indian populace. Per them, India otherwise would have remained a barbaric state even if it be thirtieth century, but for the providential intervention by the englishmen.

These Macaulay's children have also been asking for apologies from present day brahmins for the supposed atrocities committed by their forefathers on other varNa members, as recorded in vedas and puraNas."

But I do not subscribe to the second half "But about the britisher's rule in India they would quote an anonymous historian who exclaimed at the massacre of Indians
and hailed the white men at Battle of Plassey as "aaLa piRandhavan, aaNda piRandhavan"


But considerations such as the above are irrelevant to the present state of affairs between UK (which is not the same as the old Britain) and India (which is not the old undivided India, again). UK like US or OZ wants trade with India so that they can sell their goods, be assured of payments therefor and count their profits. And much of their money will get invested in Gujarat, I suppose. They see, probably, that US is still shy of coming out of its blinkers and establish open rapport with Modi and so Us interests will also come with front companies in UK and both of them will stand to gain. So will our powers that be who take a "cut" on every transaction!;)
 
How can you say sorry for something someone else did? Are apologies a waste of time? A big NO..NO..

* They are part of a long, slow process of public healing that may begin with words and end with actions

* Change in the real world can be a long journey and the apologies can be the milestones


* Sometimes even politicians tell the truth, and from time to time they may feel genuinely sorry for the mistakes of their predecessors
 
Kohinoor is ours to keep: British PM

14:04 No, India, Kohinoor is ours, not yours: Cameron: British Prime Minister David Cameron says a giant diamond his country forced India to hand over in the colonial era that was set in a royal crown will not be returned.

Speaking on the third and final day of a visit to India aimed at drumming up trade and investment, Cameron ruled out handing back the 105-carat Kohinoor diamond, now on display in the Tower of London.

The diamond had been set in the crown of the current Queen Elizabeth's late mother.One of the world's largest diamonds, some Indians - including Mahatma Gandhi's grandson - have demanded its return to atone for Britain's colonial past.

"I don't think that's the right approach," Cameron told reporters on Wednesday after becoming the first serving British prime minister to voice regret about one of the bloodiest episodes in colonial India, a massacre of unarmed civilians in the city of Amritsar in 1919. "It is the same question with the Elgin Marbles," he said, referring to the classical Greek marble sculptures that Athens has long demanded be given back. -- Reuters
 
This is a big drama enacted by the British...Their economy is in shambles...They are risking a triple dip recession with high inflation...With economy looking fragile & feeble they have to rejuvenate it, come what may....India with a large economy, huge demand from gallopping middle classes, India is on their radar...You have read the economics behind this

Instead of standing on prestige , David Cameron has called the Jallianwala massacre as deeply shameful...An outright apology could have assuaged the hurt Indian feelings
 
This apology business is ridiculous; like mani shankar iyer blurting with a sombre face that congress has apologized for the sikh massacre.
 
Sara Jahan Hamara.
We want everything, we will not work to earn it.
Kohinoor belongs to who? And who is asking for it?
If there is a robbery in my next door and police recovered $1000.00 from the robber, do I have any claim on it? It is elementary.
Mr. Sarang show me the proof that you owned Kohinoor, and who gave you authority to ask for it? Kohinoor was owned at one time by a person from Indian subcontinent, that does not give you Mr. Sarang any right to demand it.
We have had this discussion before, you seem to think when convenient the Mugal India is same as today's Republic of India. Maharaja Ranjeet Singh of Punjab did not think so. Sivaji did not think so.
Mr. Brahmanyan's post#6 is accurate.

I do admit that English for their purpose used people and resources of Indian subcontinent. But if that is true so did our forefathers. Every one of us is an immigrant in this planet. When my forefathers migrated out of TN to up north they did use the local resources, I am sure you too do the same.

So it is purely romantic to ask this question. It has no merit, other than fanning the frenzy of some fringe elements in the society.
 
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Brahmanyan is 100% on the spot. History is past. the losers lose everything. in those days. and now too. look at sri lankan tamils.

what we can do is to learn from history, and not repeat those mistakes again. our threat was always from the northwest. it still is. when the usa leaves afghanistan, pakistan is going to be a sieve for criminals to terrorists to infiltrate india.

let us learn from our history. as rulers go, the english were better than any others we had, by a long shot, and by the morals and values of those times. i think so.
 
hi
i think differently.....we owe british for creation of pakistan.....otherwise as big hindusthan have another head ache of muslim problems.....

Dear Sri "tbs",

Pakistan is not the creation of British alone, it was a historical necessity of the time. All the leaders of political parties of that time had their part in the partition of the Country. To my knowledge we never had this big an India that we have today prior to the British leaving our Country. Of course that giant of a leader Sardar Vallabbhai Patel was the person who consolidated an united India that we see today.
Personally I feel, we cannot wish away any ethnic or religious community or castes so easily in anticipation of conflicts. All are part of our civilisation and culture. Cultural refinement and assimilation has been going on due to churning of history. History has taught that no one owns any Country permanently, the borders change according to the strength of the ruling community. This will continue for ever.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Britain has done bad things for India and British have done good things. The former politically and the later in the field of development, education, communications and so on. The railways are one shining example though they did it partially for their troop movement and for better governance. Though our languages are good, they were not helping us to see the world. English has done that. Even today we are making only translations. We do not owe anything to them but can certainly thank them for the good things they have done. The Jalianwalla was bad incident which Mr Cameron now regrets. Without compromising with our self-respect, we can still learn many things from British other than their hinging upon to the US policies.
 
Perhaps efforts made by other countries to recover their treasures will help some to reflect instead of pontification. But some never learn - it is their privilege! No wonder India did not participate except sending an observer, another immigrant from wonderland!

Egypt hosts meeting on recovery of 'stolen treasures'

The SCA said the forum would discuss "the protection and restitution of cultural heritage."

Representatives include cultural officials from Greece, Italy, China and Peru - all of which have lost ancient artefacts over the centuries which that they now want back.

Strategies under discussion at the conference include drawing up a single list of unique items to be returned to their countries of origin.

Representatives are also considering calling on the United Nations cultural body, Unesco, to amend a convention banning export and ownership of antiquities stolen after 1970 - so that they can pursue items that were snatched earlier, says the BBC's Yolande Knell in Cairo.

In recent years, the Egyptian authorities have stepped up their efforts to recover stolen artefacts, with the head of the SCA, Zahi Hawass, attracting international attention for his efforts.

"We are the country with the loudest voice on this issue and have so far had returned about 5,000 artefacts," he said at the conference.

BBC News - Egypt hosts meeting on recovery of 'stolen treasures'

Sara Jahan Hamara.
We want everything, we will not work to earn it.
Kohinoor belongs to who? And who is asking for it?
If there is a robbery in my next door and police recovered $1000.00 from the robber, do I have any claim on it? It is elementary.
Mr. Sarang show me the proof that you owned Kohinoor, and who gave you authority to ask for it? Kohinoor was owned at one time by a person from Indian subcontinent, that does not give you Mr. Sarang any right to demand it.
We have had this discussion before, you seem to think when convenient the Mugal India is same as today's Republic of India. Maharaja Ranjeet Singh of Punjab did not think so. Sivaji did not think so.
Mr. Brahmanyan's post#6 is accurate.

I do admit that English for their purpose used people and resources of Indian subcontinent. But if that is true so did our forefathers. Every one of us is an immigrant in this planet. When my forefathers migrated out of TN to up north they did use the local resources, I am sure you too do the same.

So it is purely romantic to ask this question. It has no merit, other than fanning the frenzy of some fringe elements in the society.
 
Perhaps efforts made by other countries to recover their treasures will help some to reflect instead of pontification. But some never learn - it is their privilege! No wonder India did not participate except sending an observer, another immigrant from wonderland!

Egypt hosts meeting on recovery of 'stolen treasures'

Sarang,

There were many foreign explorers to Egypt, who dismantled all the mummies/artifacts ruthlessly, in the name of a archeology. The locals never
cared and now Egypt is a islamic country, and egyptian ancestry may not be of any concern to them. The recent/current thefts/smuggled
statues may be accounted for.

Part of the article read "Representatives are also considering calling on the United Nations cultural body, Unesco, to amend a convention
banning export and ownership of antiquities stolen after 1970
- so that they can pursue items that were snatched earlier,
says the BBC's Yolande Knell in Cairo. "

Coming to kohinoor diamond, if returned, our indian blacksmiths (corrupt) would just exchange with Germany (Swiss banks).
Atleast now, those are in public display at the British Museum.

PS:

I am not supporting the British rule either, their judiciary is just translation of our sankriti terms of smriti/chAnakya's law.

They completely ruined our agricultural foundation [we had famine for 12 years, and millions died] and brought in cash-crops (Cotton)
for their exports and starved us without food-crops. Our congress follows the same trend! and we are proud of the democracy than the
Sanatan Dharmic aristocracy over food/hygiene/simplicity.

Yet, even the British rulers of India could not neglect Indian cotton. For "practically till the end of the eighteenth century, no source of supply
of cotton other than India was known to the world". Even as early as in 1764, India exported about 10,000 bales of cotton to Great Britain.
But the growing Lancashire industry needed more and better cotton. Small wonder, the British Government in India "took every conceivable
measure to aid and encourage - and even to undertake - the cultivation in India of more and better cotton and its clean marketing to Great Britain".
While these efforts reduced India from riches to rags in less than half a century, and transformed the age-old ace producer of finest cotton muslins
in the world into a decayed colonial vestige supplying raw-cotton to feed the industrial revolution of both the West and East (Japan), to the dismay
of the British Government the spirit of Swadeshi also emerged simultaneously, which later fanned the freedom movement and led eventually
to the exit of the British from this country in 1947.

http://www.ecottonindia.com/history.htm

Not just cotton, they completely broke the agricultural setup and they struggled decades to come up with their methodologies. This resulted in crop
failures and forcing us to poverty, confusion, and deaths.

Their idea of sending us to schools (which were once free pAtashAlas on the road-side, to the education industry! now] was to distract us from our spirituality
and those building of railways was to distract us from farming the regular food-crops and to motivate their economies of west. And we are still proud of this trend,
while there are millions starving in the slums.

Now, We need our lost, stolen spiritual values not the Kohinoor diamond and peacock thrones!
 
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I believe in 'AND' and not just 'OR'. Forget the diamond and throne; there are hundreds of spiritualism-religion linked items; Saraswati of Bhojsala is good refernce to valuables lost. No need to say anything of chola bronzes.

Now, We need our lost, stolen spiritual values not the Kohinoor diamond and peacock thrones!
 
I believe in 'AND' and not just 'OR'. Forget the diamond and throne; there are hundreds of spiritualism-religion linked items; Saraswati of Bhojsala is good refernce to valuables lost. No need to say anything of chola bronzes.

Sarang,

I dont mean to say, those are not valuables, but we have more culprits and smugglers in our own land, so reaching the far oceans is not very useful. Do you know, many of our temple vigrahas been smuggled and sold, incl our royal royal family?


Surprisingly, the British PM wont return the diamond! Kohinoor is ours, won't be returned: British PM David Cameron tells India - India - IBNLive
 
hi
atleast kobhinoor in london now...its very safe tooo....if it is in india.....already taken with BIG SWAHAAAAAAAAAAA by our own brethern or kept in

swiss bank as private property...
 
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There are international laws to return artifacts stolen after 1970 and punish the guilty. At least, in theory, these can be recovered. The setup is as big and widespread as the drug lords.

Even south american countries like brazil and peru are keen to get mayan and indian items, even though their civilization was wiped out by the christian invaders. As far as we are concerned, only a couple of chola bronze temple vigrahas stolen and smuggled to UK were brought back after a legal battle.

Sarang,

I dont mean to say, those are not valuables, but we have more culprits and smugglers in our own land, so reaching the far oceans is not very useful. Do you know, many of our temple vigrahas been smuggled and sold, incl our royal royal family?


Surprisingly, the British PM wont return the diamond! Kohinoor is ours, won't be returned: British PM David Cameron tells India - India - IBNLive
 
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