Faith

[Vaagmi]

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Faith goes with reason​

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Anurag​

The Economic Times​

Published on April 24, 2015​

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[TD="width: 589"] A little girl was to undergo an operation. The surgeon told her, “Before we can make you well, we must put you to sleep for a little while.” She looked up and smiled, “Oh, if you are going to put me to sleep, I must say my prayers first.” She knelt down beside the table and prayed. Later, the surgeon said that he prayed that night for the first time in 30 years. Prayer doesn’t change things. It changes people, and people change things. So, don’t pray for lighter burdens. Pray for stronger backs. Faith, as embodied in religion, and reason as embodied in science, are often erroneously thought of as being in opposition to each other. But science is not an enemy of religion, only of superstition. Both science and religion are engaged in the search for truth, the main difference lies in their methodologies. Science is an investigation of truth in the finite nature outside, the object. Religion is an investigation into the nature of the infinite, the subject. Science aims for universally verifiable knowledge. Religion aims for individual realisation. Universal laws operate regardless of one’s beliefs and faith. We are closer to the physical world than to the metaphysical. We respect science, because it is premised on reason. Swami Sivananda holds that science knows little about the origin of life, the origin of thought, and the origin and destiny of human nature and the universe. Even scientists are quite conscious of these limitations of science and scientific method. Faith is not predicated upon reason. It is beyond reason.[/TD]
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[prasad1]

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Faith goes with reason
Anurag
The Economic Times
Published on April 24, 2015​

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[TD="width: 589"]A little girl was to undergo an operation. The surgeon told her, “Before we can make you well, we must put you to sleep for a little while.” She looked up and smiled, “Oh, if you are going to put me to sleep, I must say my prayers first.” She knelt down beside the table and prayed. Later, the surgeon said that he prayed that night for the first time in 30 years.Prayer doesn’t change things. It changes people, and people change things. So, don’t pray for lighter burdens. Pray for stronger backs. Faith, as embodied in religion, and reason as embodied in science, are often erroneously thought of as being in opposition to each other.But science is not an enemy of religion, only of superstition. Both science and religion are engaged in the search for truth, the main difference lies in their methodologies.Science is an investigation of truth in the finite nature outside, the object. Religion is an investigation into the nature of the infinite, the subject. Science aims for universally verifiable knowledge. Religion aims for individual realisation. Universal laws operate regardless of one’s beliefs and faith. We are closer to the physical world than to the metaphysical.We respect science, because it is premised on reason. Swami Sivananda holds that science knows little about the origin of life, the origin of thought, and the origin and destiny of human nature and the universe. Even scientists are quite conscious of these limitations of science and scientific method. Faith is not predicated upon reason. It is beyond reason.[/TD]
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Wow I did know this side of you. Thanks for the post.

 

[Vaagmi]

Wow I did know this side of you. Thanks for the post.

prasadji,

Did you know or did you not know?

 

[prasad1]

prasadji,

Did you know or did you not know?

Even a compliment is disbelieved!!!!!!!!.
Sorry.

 

[renuka]

prasadji,

Did you know or did you not know?

you gotta have Faith Faith Faith!LOL

 

[sarang]

Well, some have faith in devil and satan, not in angels!

you gotta have Faith Faith Faith!LOL

 

[renuka]

Well, some have faith in devil and satan, not in angels!

Narayana!

Since when did you become Abrahamic?LOL

Devil..Satan..Angels and all? Hallelujah!

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Mark Twain once defined faith as “believing what you know ain’t so.”

Bertrand Russell wrote:[SUP][43][/SUP]

Christians hold that their faith does good, but other faiths do harm. At any rate, they hold this about the communist faith. What I wish to maintain is that all faiths do harm. We may define “faith” as a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of “faith.” We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups substitute different emotions. Christians have faith in the Resurrection; communists have faith in Marx’s Theory of Value. Neither faith can be defended rationally, and each therefore is defended by propaganda and, if necessary, by war.
— Will Religious Faith Cure Our Troubles?

​

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins criticizes all faith by generalizing from specific faith in propositions that conflict directly with scientific evidence.[SUP][44][/SUP] He describes faith as belief without evidence; a process of active non-thinking. He states that it is a practice that only degrades our understanding of the natural world by allowing anyone to make a claim about nature that is based solely on their personal thoughts, and possibly distorted perceptions, that does not require testing against nature, has no ability to make reliable and consistent predictions, and is not subject to peer review.[SUP][45][/SUP]

Peter Boghossian of Portland State University criticizes the current definitions of the word faith as not accurately reflecting its meaning. He argues that when people use the word faith, as in "I have faith in X", they do not mean that they have confidence in X, or that they hope X is true, they claim they know X is true. He also claims that faith is used only in the absence of good supporting evidence. If this is so, he further argues, then faith is a knowledge claim not justified by evidence. He therefore puts forward the following definition as the best description of the word faith as it is actually used - "Pretending to know something you don't know".[SUP][46][/SUP]

 

[talwan]

The phrase “blind faith” means different things to different people, and, sadly, many people use it as a negative, disparaging term to describe anyone who believes in God. A dictionary definition ofblind faithis “belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination.” But is this the kind of faith God desires us to have? More to the point, is the kind of faith God gives us a blind faith (Ephesians 2:8-9)? Is our faith really to be blind, without true understanding?

To answer this, we will start by looking at one of the greatest examples of faith found in the Old Testament. God told Abraham that Abraham would be a father of many nations and that his wife Sarah would bear him a child even though they were very old. Indeed, Sarah was 90, and Abraham was around 100 when Isaac was finally born to them. Then God told Abraham to do the unthinkable, to kill Isaac (Genesis 22:1-19). Upon receiving the order, Abraham did not question God. He “blindly” followed God’s orders and traveled quite a distance to a mountain with the intention of killing his son. In the end, God stopped him and said, “Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son” (Genesis 22:12).

This account makes it seem that God was rewarding and complimenting Abraham for blind faith, and since Abraham is one of the models given to us to follow, it would seem that blind faith is the ideal. That, however, is not the whole story. If we turn to the book of Hebrews and read what it says about Abraham, we can find out a bit more.

Hebrews 11is often referred to as the hall of fame of faith. In it we find many of the greatest people of the Bible and their accomplishments through faith. Abraham is listed more than once, but verses 18-19 tell us Abraham “reasoned” that God had promised a great nation through Isaac and that even if Isaac were killed, God could bring Isaac back from the dead, and because of that reasoning—not blind faith—Abraham followed through with the command. Abraham did not act blindly. Instead, he used his powers of reason, based on what he knew about God, to think it through. He knew God’s nature as a faithful God, and he remembered God’s promise regarding Isaac. Then he acted accordingly.

Throughout Scripture we find that reason, wisdom, and logic are lifted up as good traits. For example,Proverbs 3:13says we are blessed when we find knowledge and understanding.Hebrews 5:12-14reproves teachers for not learning and growing in understanding. Paul commends the church at Berea because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true (Acts 17:11). In many places throughout Acts the apostle Paul was said to “reason” with the lost, attempting to prove to them the truth of his words.James 1:5even tells us to ask God for wisdom, which He gives “generously to all without finding fault.”


Read more:Does God expect us to have blind faith?

 

[Vaagmi]

Even a compliment is disbelieved!!!!!!!!.
Sorry.

I am a lean and mean animal here. So any compliment is received with suspicion and reluctance. I would prefer someone joining issue with me intelligently or someone pulling my legs for fun. Compliments are unwelcome. LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

Faith is a hypothesis.

The proof is obtained when one explores and understands.

Problem is that there are unique multiple proof and different people get different ones.

If you have one, keep it. Do not flaunt it or claim that you are the only one possessing the right proof.

And before I forget, please for heavens sake, do not become a jihadi because you do not understand whatever is said in the above four lines and yet want to appear as a knowing, devout being.

LOL.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Faith is a hypothesis.

The proof is obtained when one explores and understands.

Problem is that there are unique multiple proof and different people get different ones.

If you have one, keep it. Do not flaunt it or claim that you are the only one possessing the right proof.

And before I forget, please for heavens sake, do not become a jihadi because you do not understand whatever is said in the above four lines and yet want to appear as a knowing, devout being.

LOL.

R. S. Thomas, the Welsh poet of the Deus absconditus, who grappled with science and the philosophy of science – and jotted ratty comments in his copy of Paul Davies’ God and the New Physics (1983) – knew better:


I have waited for him
under the tree of science,
and he has not com

"'Faith can not be defended rationally, and therefore is defended by propaganda and, if necessary, by war." Bertrand Russell l

 

[a-TB]

Problem with faith is that it always ends up becoming an ego identity issue.
Religion and faith are rarely taken only for personal growth. People of faith feel they have to defend their God at every opportunity, and put others down regardless of what they claim to be following. Proof for this is in this forum posts itself LoL

 

[prasad1]

Faith is a hypothesis.

The proof is obtained when one explores and understands.

Problem is that there are unique multiple proof and different people get different ones.

If you have one, keep it. Do not flaunt it or claim that you are the only one possessing the right proof.
LOL I could quote some earlier posts, but I will not.

And before I forget, please for heavens sake, do not become a jihadi because you do not understand whatever is said in the above four lines and yet want to appear as a knowing, devout being.

LOL.

On the whole I agree with this POV.

 

[prasad1]

Problem with faith is that it always ends up becoming an ego identity issue.
Religion and faith are rarely taken only for personal growth. People of faith feel they have to defend their God at every opportunity, and put others down regardless of what they claim to be following. Proof for this is in this forum posts itself LoL

You are so right.

 

[Vaagmi]

prasadji said:

If you have one, keep it. Do not flaunt it or claim that you are the only one possessing the right proof.
LOL I could quote some earlier posts, but I will not.

This reply pertains to the underlined comment of prasadji.

Please do quote them and get exposed. But quote the context also. You will have to give info as to which post of someone else provoked that post from me. Every action invites a reaction. Blame the action and forget the reaction.

LOL.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Every Phenomenon follows some law of Nature which may not yet be established . But it is not a licence for not being rational - man is a rational animal - lean and mean included! Earth is flat is faith. But truth is otherwise and established. Eclipses are due to Raghu Kethu swallowing Sun or Moon - Faith - Now you know the Reason -

Faith comes into play when you have not yet understood or established the reason. and hence Faith Goes with Reason is Questionabale I have faith only in Narayana and Not in Raghu or Kethu - Yesodha did see the entire Universe Raghu Kethu included inside throat of Naryana in Krishna Avatar! So it not R or K the real reason for eclipses but their boss supreme Naryana!

How men rational enough to accept the established reason for these eclipses can still be irrational to do Parikarams on these days, even close the Temple in Tirupathi!? They become rationally irrational Does Faith goes with reason really?

 

[zebra16]

Every Phenomenon follows some law of Nature

This is a belief or myth unsubstantiated. Without establishment by evidence or proof, it cannot be concluded that every phenomenon follows some law.

man is a rational animal

This too I would consider as a falsehood, which is sought to be reinforced by mere repetition and assertion.

Let me put up my case. Every human being sleep at least for a quarter portion of the day. Every human being do dream in their sleep, except in the deep sleep stage. Any analysis would indicate that there is nothing rational whatsoever in dreams.

How did the irrational dreams originate in the mind and brain of a human being if he was thoroughly rational. The dream is uniformly irrational to the Rationalists, atheists, believers, disbelievers and svayambhus

We can at best say that human beings "attempt" to be rational so that others do not call them **beku**.

Emotions control most of the mind space, and to think emotions can be rational would be the most irrational thing.

 

[sarang]

Isn't it natural when a man of faith responds when his faith is opposed or attacked as one with 'no faith' or 'scientific faith' bristles with innuendos when 'non faith' is attacked.

It is also true that people of faith have a large body of religious and secular literature and practices to defend their stand, people who oppose faith have nothing substantial to produce except calling it unscientific, I can't see it or feel it or understand it.

Sad part is most of the non believers from the faith stable have not been exposed to the richness available in the scriptures, traditions and practices.

Problem with faith is that it always ends up becoming an ego identity issue.
Religion and faith are rarely taken only for personal growth. People of faith feel they have to defend their God at every opportunity, and put others down regardless of what they claim to be following. Proof for this is in this forum posts itself LoL

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

This is a belief or myth unsubstantiated. Without establishment by evidence or proof, it cannot be concluded that every phenomenon follows some law.



This too I would consider as a falsehood, which is sought to be reinforced by mere repetition and assertion.

Let me put up my case. Every human being sleep at least for a quarter portion of the day. Every human being do dream in their sleep, except in the deep sleep stage. Any analysis would indicate that there is nothing rational whatsoever in dreams.

How did the irrational dreams originate in the mind and brain of a human being if he was thoroughly rational. The dream is uniformly irrational to the Rationalists, atheists, believers, disbelievers and svayambhus

We can at best say that human beings "attempt" to be rational so that others do not call them **beku**.

Emotions control most of the mind space, and to think emotions can be rational would be the most irrational thing.

Scientist explain & explore dreams rationally Sigmund Freud's Oedipus Complex explanation is the basis of Psycho Analysis of dreams you have talked about It could not get him the Noble as it was not cosidered part of medicine in those days!

Sigmund Freud's Theories | Simply Psychology

The structure of Benzene is the result of a Dream of Kekule during his Nap one day

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...=GLtQoYtjT0L2dsmWHWpFsA&bvm=bv.92189499,d.c2E

More about this famous dream

THE BENZENE RING - DREAM ANALYSIS - NYTimes.com

Daydreams may end up in discoveries

 

[a-TB]

Isn't it natural when a man of faith responds when his faith is opposed or attacked as one with 'no faith' or 'scientific faith' bristles with innuendos when 'non faith' is attacked.

It is also true that people of faith have a large body of religious and secular literature and practices to defend their stand, people who oppose faith have nothing substantial to produce except calling it unscientific, I can't see it or feel it or understand it.

Sad part is most of the non believers from the faith stable have not been exposed to the richness available in the scriptures, traditions and practices.

If faith is 'personal' only, then need to 'defend' does not arise, unless one's ego is involved. A person opposing one's personal faith if causing no other harm can be left alone. But one's ego cannot let that happen! Also world is full of many different faith all claiming they alone are right

 

[a-TB]

This is a belief or myth unsubstantiated. Without establishment by evidence or proof, it cannot be concluded that every phenomenon follows some law.



This too I would consider as a falsehood, which is sought to be reinforced by mere repetition and assertion.

Let me put up my case. Every human being sleep at least for a quarter portion of the day. Every human being do dream in their sleep, except in the deep sleep stage. Any analysis would indicate that there is nothing rational whatsoever in dreams.

How did the irrational dreams originate in the mind and brain of a human being if he was thoroughly rational. The dream is uniformly irrational to the Rationalists, atheists, believers, disbelievers and svayambhus

We can at best say that human beings "attempt" to be rational so that others do not call them **beku**.

Emotions control most of the mind space, and to think emotions can be rational would be the most irrational thing.

Every phenomena follows a law is a hypothesis. To say it is not is also a hypothesis.. So far science has been consistently uncovering laws for unexplained phenomena so the first hypothesis is right by extrapolation and second is for those buried in faith

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

This is a belief or myth unsubstantiated. Without establishment by evidence or proof, it cannot be concluded that every phenomenon follows some law.



This too I would consider as a falsehood, which is sought to be reinforced by mere repetition and assertion.

Let me put up my case. Every human being sleep at least for a quarter portion of the day. Every human being do dream in their sleep, except in the deep sleep stage. Any analysis would indicate that there is nothing rational whatsoever in dreams.

How did the irrational dreams originate in the mind and brain of a human being if he was thoroughly rational. The dream is uniformly irrational to the Rationalists, atheists, believers, disbelievers and svayambhus

We can at best say that human beings "attempt" to be rational so that others do not call them **beku**.

Emotions control most of the mind space, and to think emotions can be rational would be the most irrational thing.

This I drag from an old thread - It needs fresh attention It says Brahmins prayed to get rid of bad dreams & also for good dreams as they felt dreams could not be avoided!


Dreams and Sleep: Psychologists and scholars like Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung and William Donhoff interpreted dreams from a different angle. But Brahmins knew that dreams can’t be avoided by any one as it happens to everyone during REM sleep (Rapid Eye Movement) we pray every day at the end o f the Sandhyavandhanam to get rid of Dus swpnam ( nightmares, bad dreams) only. Ref Mantra Adhyano deva savita-----.

In Western countries ,proper sleep is a rare commodity. A lot of people are on sleeping pills. We know that sleep is more important than anything and we pray for ‘sayanam cha me’ (good sleep) in Rudram and Chamakam. Who else pray for good dreams and good sleep in their daily prayers. Even if you don’t say Rudram and Chamakam every day, Brahmins in every shiva temple around the world do it for us. Don’t we deserve a place in the Book of records for following it?