God is not a Mere Superintendent.

[renuka]

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Found this interesting line in Brahma Sutra Bhasya today.

पत्युरसामञ्जस्यात्

पत्युः असामञ्जस्यात्

Meaning: For the Lord there can be no creatorship for that leads to incongruity.

Commentary by Adi Shankara:

For the Lord that is to say for God there can be no causality towards the universe by becoming( a mere) superintendent over Nature and souls.

Why?

On account of incongruity.

What is that incongruity?

For a Lord who creates the various creatures by dividing them into grades of inferiority,mediocrity and superiority will be open like ourselves to the charges of likes,dislikes etc..so that He will cease to be God

.


What I would like to discuss with members is it seems clear from this statement that God does not Micromanage and not a mere superintendent and does not get involved with gradation cos that would lead to incongruity.

In fact the commentary goes further by saying that: The Incongruity arises even from that admission that God is a special type of Purusha(Soul) for that Purusha is admitted to be indifferent to everything.

Now how does this actually match with Purusha Shuktam verse 13 which says this:

Text Thirteen

​

brahmanosya mukhamasit​

bahu rajanyah kritaha​

uru tadasya yadvaishyaha​

padhyagam shudro ajayata

​

From His face (or the mouth) came the brahmanas. From His two arms came the rajanya (the kshatriyas). From His two thighs came the vaishyas. From His two feet came the shudras.

So if God is not supposed to be even a special Purusha and He does Not Micromanage or be a Superintendent that gets involves in gradation of any kind and indifferent towards everything....how come verse 13 of Purusha Suktam sings a different tune citing gradation of humans arising from the Supreme Purusha?





Note: This thread is for discussion purposes and before any one says that one does not have a solid background for understanding texts like this and is merely confused blah blah..lets have a good discussion.

Hoping inputs from members.

 

[Vaagmi]

how come verse 13 of Purusha Suktam sings a different tune citing gradation of humans arising from the Supreme Purusha?

brahmanosya mukhamasit​

bahu rajanyah kritaha​

uru tadasya yadvaishyaha​

padhyagam shudro ajayata​

Where is the gradation in this? Please explain.

 

[renuka]

​

Where is the gradation in this? Please explain.

1 2 3 4 get on the dance floor!LOL

1 2 3 4 is a gradation even though there is NO superiority or inferiority denoted here.

Its Caturvarna..for any numbering to have taken place that means there is a criterion based on some form of gradation.

Again Gradation need NOT mean Superiority or Inferiority.

Hope I am clear.

Cos if there is no gradation there is only ONE.

 

[Vaagmi]

1 2 3 4 get on the dance floor!LOL
1 2 3 4 is a gradation even though there is NO superiority or inferiority denoted here.
Its Caturvarna..for any numbering to have taken place that means there is a criterion based on some form of gradation.
Again Gradation need NOT mean Superiority or Inferiority.
Hope I am clear.
Cos if there is no gradation there is only ONE.

Thanks for explaining. But please think about it a little more deeply. You will agree that it is just the limitation of the medium called language which is used here. The language can explain things only this way because it is linear and unidirectional. Imagine for a while this stanza given in a pictograph instead of in Sanskrit in the linear form. There would be no gradation then. So my dear, the fault if any lies with the onlooker or reader and not with the purusa. There is no gradation. Another way of looking at it is forgetting the time dimension for a while. Imagine you are a kalatheetha vasthu and for you there is no gap between one occurrence and another. you see every thing occurring simultaneously. Then too there will be no gradation.

Try to get beyond time and linear mode of languages. LOL.

The Azhwar sang "pallandu pallandu pallaayiraththandu palakoTi noorayiram........" because he was worried that the kAlAtheetha vasthu came into the domain of kAlam and azhwar feared that there may be some harm happening to that vastu and so he sang pallandu to God (how can a human being wish pallandu to his God?)LOL.

Kindly perceive.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

There can be no incongruity in creation when all the jivatmas are equal. Each lives in different circumstances and has different interactions and hence the progress may not proceed at equal pace for all the jivatmas though finally all attain moksha. I do not understand how can it be said that incongruity is possible.

Seen in this light brahmanas coming from the mouth of purusha and so on cannot be said to be gradation but may signify a sequence

 

[renuka]

Seen in this light brahmanas coming from the mouth of purusha and so on cannot be said to be gradation but may signify a sequence

Exactly!

So going by the fact that God does not get involved in any gradation..so that means the Caturvarna must be a sequence of events sans gradation.

So it seems that the Varna system got misunderstood to denote superiority/inferiority.

So since its not a gradation than why is a Sudra is not permitted to study Vedas?

 

[Vaagmi]

why is a Sudra is not permitted to study Vedas

There is no rule stipulated in vedas that Sudras is not permitted to study vedas. And vedas are the pramana.

 

[sravna]

Exactly!

So going by the fact that God does not get involved in any gradation..so that means the Caturvarna must be a sequence of events sans gradation.

So it seems that the Varna system got misunderstood to denote superiority/inferiority.

So since its not a gradation than why is a Sudra is not permitted to study Vedas?

You are right Renuka. There is no superiority or inferiority in this. Similarly not allowing one to study vedas does not mean one is treated as inferior though that notion might have crept into ill-informed people. The people who feel that superiority are not exhibiting mental maturity. Similarly a Shudra who feels that not being allowed to study vedas does not make him inferior is exhibiting a higher mental maturity.

 

[renuka]

There is no rule stipulated in vedas that Sudras is not permitted to study vedas. And vedas are the pramana.

The same Brahma Sutra says that Sudras are not permitted to study Vedas.

It comes under the chapter Pseudo Sudra cos the opponent was debating with the Vedantin that Raikva addressed King Janashruti as 'O'Sudra" before imparting too him the knowledge about the Ultimate Reality.

So the opponent says to the Vedantin "If a Sudra is not permitted or competent for the study of the higher truth and Vedas etc than how come a Sudra was imparted the knowledge from Raikva?

Then some coverup story comes that the King Janashruti is NOT a Sudra but a Kshatriya but the Sudra word used here is to denote his grief state of mind abhidudruve sucam which somehow means Sudra!LOL

Then the Brahmasutra quotes the smirtis which says that a Sudra that hears the Vedas lac and lead should be poured into his ears..if he utters the Vedas his tongue should be cut off and if he commits the Vedas to memory his body should be cut into pieces...phew such violence!LOL

So what say you O' Vaagmi Ji?

 

[sravna]

Then the Brahmasutra quotes the smirtis which says that a Sudra that hears the Vedas lac and lead should be poured into his ears..if he utters the Vedas his tongue should be cut off and if he commits the Vedas to memory his body should be cut into pieces...phew such violence!LOL

Dear Renuka,

Prescribing punishment is something that is not restricted to shudras. All other varnas were also punished if they were deviant. In fact the most stringent punishments were given to brahmins because they were given more privileges. Anyone who failed to do his dharma and did something that was not his dharma was deemed fit enough to be punished. It all evens out in the final analysis.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Prescribing punishment is something that is not restricted to shudras. All other varnas were also punished if they were deviant. In fact the most stringent punishments were given to brahmins because they were given more privileges. Anyone who failed to do his dharma and did something that was not his dharma was deemed fit enough to be punished. It all evens out in the final analysis.

Dear Sravna,

My intent of this thread was not to actually debate about caste.

Its hard to define the meaning of most stringent cos some might consider the death sentence the most stringent which is not permitted for members of a particular Varna.

I was reading up about the Sati System where there is a controversy whether its sanctioned by the Vedas or not.

Surprisingly I came across a fact that Padma Purana prohibits Brahmin women from commiting Sati.

So since there is so much differences of opinion I rather not discuss on caste lines.

My debate was if there is no gradation in terms of superiority or inferiority as you say it's a sequence..so why the Sudra is not allowed to study the Vedas?

In the Smirti it does say that if a Sudra has recited or committed to memory he should be punished ..but if someone can recite or commit anything to memory something which he has not be formally taught that shows his brain and mind is receptive enough to learn even without a Guru..so if the mental capacity is there why not groom the person to have a spiritual capacity?

Some might want to differ on lines that Vedas/Vedanta is not for all and sundry and intellect/mental capacity etc is not a measure for spiritual capacity and knowledge in the wrong hands is dangerous etc.

I feel that mindset has to go cos what does one expect from gaining Vedic knowledge? Is only enlightenment and self realization...its not as if someone is going to detonate a Nuclear Bomb!LOL

 

[sravna]

Yes Renuka, if someone is prepared to be enlightened it is necessary to let him be enlightened. But remember it is not just enough that one intellectually argues for one's right to be enlightened. One should really be able to practice what is necessary to take one to enlightenment. Vedas are clear about this. If one is in that state of mind he is supposed to possess sattva guna. For example, if he is still has an excess of rajo guna he will find it difficult to control his emotions and hence not be able to practice what the vedas says. What is the use of just fighting for something if you cannot be it?

So the very basic characteristic necessary is to be able to rein in one's mind and not let be out of control. Anyone prepared in that way can indeed not only aspire for higher spiritual goals but also is likely to succeed.

To prevent any waywardness from happening in this regard and to maintain order, the vedas gives its rules and provides deterrence for deviation from these rules.

 

[renuka]

Yes Renuka, if someone is prepared to be enlightened it is necessary to let him be enlightened. But remember it is not just enough that one intellectually argues for one's right to be enlightened. One should really be able to practice what is necessary to take one to enlightenment. Vedas are clear about this. If one is in that state of mind he is supposed to possess sattva guna. For example, if he is still has an excess of rajo guna he will find it difficult to control his emotions and hence not be able to practice what the vedas says. What is the use of just fighting for something if you cannot be it?

So the very basic characteristic necessary is to be able to rein in one's mind and not let be out of control. Anyone prepared in that way can indeed not only aspire for higher spiritual goals but also is likely to succeed.

To prevent any waywardness from happening in this regard and to maintain order, the vedas gives its rules and provides deterrence for deviation from these rules.

But its not so easy to determine the Guna of anyone..unless we subscribe to the Vaagmi Gene theory!

Imagine if a vetting system was applied in hospitals that is a doctor only treats a person whom he feels might live and refuse to treat a person who is dying?

Its the duty of the doctor to treat, to save and not reject critically ill patients just becos he feel he does not have the criteria to continue living.

So I feel if a person has interest to pursue a certain path he should be encouraged to seek it.

Remember the story of Swami Vivekananda and Ramakrishna Paramahansa..when Swami V was still Narendra..he used to have quite a temper and once fought with a man and Ramakrishna Paramhansa told him to control his temper.

Then another time another disciple was bullied by another person and Ramakrishna Paramahansa told that disciple that he should have stood up and defended himself and not be bullied.

So Swami V asked RK Paramahansa(RKP) how come he was told to control his temper but the other disciple was told to stand up and defend himself.

The RKP told Swami V that Swami V had too much anger and the other person needed to be brave.

So you see RKP did not reject the rather temperamental Swami V but guided him to get control of it.

So likewise if a person has Rajo Guna but has interest to pursue Vedic studies..he should be guided on how to be Sattva and those who seem Sattva should be made to be brave cos sometimes cowardice and Sattva can mimic each other.

If a Guru cant do this why be a Guru?

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

A Guru does not have unlimited time at his disposal, needs to be realistic. Just like a doctor who has to spend his time so that he does not spend inordinately long time on a critical case at the expense of those who could be cured, a guru spends his time on those who he deems could be receptive. The basic guna of someone is something that would indicate this. Those who are not deemed ready for certain activities are encouraged to pursue those that they can excel. That way, the time of the guru and the time of the student are efficiently spent.

 

[prasad1]

Imagine if a vetting system was applied in hospitals that is a doctor only treats a person whom he feels might live and refuse to treat a person who is dying?

Its the duty of the doctor to treat, to save and not reject critically ill patients just becos he feel he does not have the criteria to continue living.

A doctor does discriminate between patients. The terminally ill are not treated as aggressively as a healthy person. Do no harm.
If a doctor is true to his oath, and not profit motivated they would try to make the patient comfortable. A patient whose cancer has metastasised beyond control, doctors even increase the doses of morphine to reduce the pain and not go for any aggressive treatment.

So I feel that each seeker has to be handled separately by the Guru (?), as the needs are different. There is no DIY in spiritual pursuit.
Or is it the Guru have made it such so they are always in demand?

 

[prasad1]

Dear Renuka,

A Guru does not have unlimited time at his disposal, needs to be realistic. Just like a doctor who has to spend his time so that he does not spend inordinately long time on a critical case at the expense of those who could be cured, a guru spends his time on those who he deems could be receptive. The basic guna of someone is something that would indicate this. Those who are not deemed ready for certain activities are encouraged to pursue those that they can excel. That way, the time of the guru and the time of the student are efficiently spent.

Yes, i like your post. I saw it after I posted my comments.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

A Guru does not have unlimited time at his disposal, needs to be realistic. Just like a doctor who has to spend his time so that he does not spend inordinately long time on a critical case at the expense of those who could be cured, a guru spends his time on those who he deems could be receptive. The basic guna of someone is something that would indicate this. Those who are not deemed ready for certain activities are encouraged to pursue those that they can excel. That way, the time of the guru and the time of the student are efficiently spent.

Dear Sravna,

Lack of time?

So I guess going by your logic..a birth based classification would be the easiest since it saves a lot of time.

I guess then there is no scope for anymore discussion here.LOL

 

[renuka]

A doctor does discriminate between patients. The terminally ill are not treated as aggressively as a healthy person.

Ever been to an ER?

There is a triage..critically/terminally ill are treated first..the less critical have to wait.
Emergencies are 1st.

When I used to be in the ER..if we get a case of bus crash etc..many critically/terminally wounded or totally no hope for survival..all other normal less critical patients are asked to wait till the critical are treated.

So may be in the quest for spiritual knowledge its in the reverse order?LOL

May be Gurus want it easier!LOL

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Lack of time?

So I guess going by your logic..a birth based classification would be the easiest since it saves a lot of time.

I guess then there is no scope for anymore discussion here.LOL

Dear Renuka,

I am talking about guna based classification only which is in the true spirit of the scriptures though I am not sure whether it was faithfully practiced. A guru can assess the guna of a person and guide him accordingly. Don't you know how an interview of 30 minutes or so is used to assess the personality of a person and his fit for a job?

 

[Vaagmi]

The same Brahma Sutra says that Sudras are not permitted to study Vedas.

It comes under the chapter Pseudo Sudra cos the opponent was debating with the Vedantin that Raikva addressed King Janashruti as 'O'Sudra" before imparting too him the knowledge about the Ultimate Reality.

So the opponent says to the Vedantin "If a Sudra is not permitted or competent for the study of the higher truth and Vedas etc than how come a Sudra was imparted the knowledge from Raikva?

Then some coverup story comes that the King Janashruti is NOT a Sudra but a Kshatriya but the Sudra word used here is to denote his grief state of mind abhidudruve sucam which somehow means Sudra!LOL

Then the Brahmasutra quotes the smirtis which says that a Sudra that hears the Vedas lac and lead should be poured into his ears..if he utters the Vedas his tongue should be cut off and if he commits the Vedas to memory his body should be cut into pieces...phew such violence!LOL

So what say you O' Vaagmi Ji?

Arey O Renukaji,

Please read my post carefully once again. Vedas are the pramana. Vedas have not said Sudras should not study vedas. Smrutis are not vedas. Brahmasutra is not veda. Period.

 

[prasad1]

Ever been to an ER?

There is a triage..critically/terminally ill are treated first..the less critical have to wait.
Emergencies are 1st.

When I used to be in the ER..if we get a case of bus crash etc..many critically/terminally wounded or totally no hope for survival..all other normal less critical patients are asked to wait till the critical are treated.

So may be in the quest for spiritual knowledge its in the reverse order?LOL

May be Gurus want it easier!LOL

There is difference between Chronically ill and ER.

 

[renuka]

There is difference between Chronically ill and ER.

Dear Prasad ji,

In my post to Sravna I had used to word Critically Ill and not Chronically Ill.

 

[Vaagmi]

But its not so easy to determine the Guna of anyone..unless we subscribe to the Vaagmi Gene theory!

Imagine if a vetting system was applied in hospitals that is a doctor only treats a person whom he feels might live and refuse to treat a person who is dying?

Its the duty of the doctor to treat, to save and not reject critically ill patients just becos he feel he does not have the criteria to continue living.

So I feel if a person has interest to pursue a certain path he should be encouraged to seek it.

Remember the story of Swami Vivekananda and Ramakrishna Paramahansa..when Swami V was still Narendra..he used to have quite a temper and once fought with a man and Ramakrishna Paramhansa told him to control his temper.

Then another time another disciple was bullied by another person and Ramakrishna Paramahansa told that disciple that he should have stood up and defended himself and not be bullied.

So Swami V asked RK Paramahansa(RKP) how come he was told to control his temper but the other disciple was told to stand up and defend himself.

The RKP told Swami V that Swami V had too much anger and the other person needed to be brave.

So you see RKP did not reject the rather temperamental Swami V but guided him to get control of it.

So likewise if a person has Rajo Guna but has interest to pursue Vedic studies..he should be guided on how to be Sattva and those who seem Sattva should be made to be brave cos sometimes cowardice and Sattva can mimic each other.

If a Guru cant do this why be a Guru?

Renukaji,

That hit was uncalled for. I am not amused.

The so called Vagmi Gene Theory is really Robert Boyd's Gene theory-if it can be called gene theory. Robert Boyd is the Anthropologist Leading research in the School of Anthropology of University of California Los Angeles (UCLA). His work on the environment's impact on the evolution of genes is a well known theory and accepted by anthropologists world over. He has not given it as a hypothesis to be proved in a future date. he has actually given proof of it by working with a sample of population.

Briefly Boyd said environment has a profound influence on the way genes evolve over a period of time (simple meaning is that environment fundamentally rejigs the genes). This means if a boy born in a brahmin family had brahmin ancestors for the last so many years, the brahmin culture which is predominant in a brahmin household (environment) will have an influence on how the genes over generations had evolved. So after all, brahmins are brahmins, kshatriyas are kshatriyas etc., however hard the post French Revolution revolutionaries may cry about equality etc., It is just nonsense they are dishing out. The differences are the law of nature and are obvious only if you care to perceive. It is sad that a Medical Doctor Renukaji does not understand any of this and calls Boyd's theory a Vagmi Gene Theory. If your brain cells have anything to challenge Boyd do that and prove him wrong instead of calling his theory names.

I challenge you for discussion on this to disprove Robert Boyd.

 

[biswa]

Which caste is most suitable to imbibe Jack Daniels?

What does the Boyd-Vaagmi gene theory say? Which set of genes would have evolved to process alcohol most efficiently?

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,

That hit was uncalled for. I am not amused.

The so called Vagmi Gene Theory is really Robert Boyd's Gene theory-if it can be called gene theory. Robert Boyd is the Anthropologist Leading research in the School of Anthropology of University of California Los Angeles (UCLA). His work on the environment's impact on the evolution of genes is a well known theory and accepted by anthropologists world over. He has not given it as a hypothesis to be proved in a future date. he has actually given proof of it by working with a sample of population.

Briefly Boyd said environment has a profound influence on the way genes evolve over a period of time (simple meaning is that environment fundamentally rejigs the genes). This means if a boy born in a brahmin family had brahmin ancestors for the last so many years, the brahmin culture which is predominant in a brahmin household (environment) will have an influence on how the genes over generations had evolved. So after all, brahmins are brahmins, kshatriyas are kshatriyas etc., however hard the post French Revolution revolutionaries may cry about equality etc., It is just nonsense they are dishing out. The differences are the law of nature and are obvious only if you care to perceive. It is sad that a Medical Doctor Renukaji does not understand any of this and calls Boyd's theory a Vagmi Gene Theory. If your brain cells have anything to challenge Boyd do that and prove him wrong instead of calling his theory names.

I challenge you for discussion on this to disprove Robert Boyd.

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

I did not say I disagree with your Theory..in fact yesterday I was reading a new study called the Happy Gene theory that has unproven data that those with Danish genes have a higher index for happiness.

When I read that I was "Wow Vaagmi could be right after all"

You see my dear..when I discuss stuff I am sincere and willing to set aside all preconceived notions and discuss as a fully neutral person without playing defensive or having a persecution complex.

I like using the word the Vaagmi Gene theory cos it explains about the possibility of Gunas being having a Gene Marker.

Why not? You could be right.

So what is there to debate?

I am your fan yaar.