How Hindu are the Sikhs?

[biswa]

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In our local temple, I see them all the time during Deepavali or even the recent Ganesh puja. They seem to be participating freely. Should we consider them to be mostly Hindus, with some small difference? At any rate, they are probably not Hindu haters.

 

[B Suresh Kumar]

Hai Biswa,
If my knowledge is right, Sikhism was born to protect Hindus. Sikhs visit hindu temples. Sikhs can never be Hindu haters

 

[renuka]

In our local temple, I see them all the time during Deepavali or even the recent Ganesh puja. They seem to be participating freely. Should we consider them to be mostly Hindus, with some small difference? At any rate, they are probably not Hindu haters.

Yes Sikhs out here even take Kavadi for Thaipusam.They have no probelms visting Hindu temples and many of them have Goddess Kali's pic at their altars at home.
We also have no problems going to Gurudwaras when we are invited.I remember my childhood days where we used to attend many functions at Gurudwaras and the Guru Ka Langar food taste good.

But the newer types of Sikhs some what prefer to have a distinct identity.
BTW in Malaysia only South Indians and Hindu North Indians are considered ethnic Indians and Sikhs are considered ethnic Punjabi for identification registration purposes.

I know its sounds dumb but here even a Malayali wills say he is not an Indian but a Malayali cos here Indian is synonym with being a Tamilian.

 

[sarang]

So would the people of great britan say - welsh, irish, midlander, scot.

Here too we generously use - tamilian, kannadiga, bong, gulti, sindhi, punjabhi etc.

Once nationality is known, many switch to, with pride - tuscan, venetian, geprgean, texan etc. Better than being called by a single name.

 

[sarang]

So would the people of great britan say - welsh, irish, midlander, scot.

Here too we generously use - tamilian, kannadiga, bong, gulti, sindhi, punjabhi etc.

Once nationality is known, many switch to, with pride - tuscan, venetian, geprgean, texan etc. Better than being called by a single name.

 

[renuka]

So would the people of great britan say - welsh, irish, midlander, scot.

Here too we generously use - tamilian, kannadiga, bong, gulti, sindhi, punjabhi etc.

Once nationality is known, many switch to, with pride - tuscan, venetian, geprgean, texan etc. Better than being called by a single name.

Sarang,

Its kind of different here for example when we fill up any forms even for admission at hospital.

Just say if I am admitted at a hospital here.My records would read as 41 year old Indian female.

But if a Sikh person would get admitted her records would read as a 41 year old Punjabi female.

Sikhs in Malaysia are classified as Non Indian.
In Malaysia people think Punjabi is synonym with Sikh..they dont seem to get it that Sikhism is a religion and not a race.

So Punjabi Hindus out here just say they are Northern Indians cos if they say they are Punjabi people will think they are Sikh!!!

 

[kunjuppu]

Hai Biswa,
If my knowledge is right, Sikhism was born to protect Hindus. Sikhs visit hindu temples. Sikhs can never be Hindu haters

suresh,

i do not think that sikhism was born to 'protect' hinduism. if hindus do not care to 'protect' their way of life, it is not worth protecting.

also, sikhism, in its original form, was a movement against castes and multiple gods. if i remember right, the sikhs consider only the adi granth as the book to follow, their equivalent of koran.

sikhism might have been started, as a local indian punjabi anti dote to islam. but it too took on converts, mostly from hinduism.

over time, it has morphed into castes and the jats have no love for ramgarhias, their equivalent of dalits.

till the 1950s, i have heard, that it was the practice of punjabi hindus, to have their first born son, raised as a sikh. i do not know how far that is true. i do know that this practice was suspended during the khalistan movement prime time, but may have resumed now.

the sikhs too felt the trauma of partition, and the state of punjab was a consolation prize, as opposed to punjabi subha, which was equivalent to kashmir in status, if not a completely independent state.

the congress party's shenanigans laid the seed for the khalistan movement. i think indira gandhi was primarily responsible for its growth. the sikh communities abroad galvanized in their financial support, and still the pogrom on the sikhs, post indira gandhi assassinatinon, has left wounds which have not healed.

sikhs themselves, i think, considered themselves as a distinct group, but since this was a home grown faith, hindus had little trouble identifying with it. its monotheistic absolutism is attractive, and is a viable alternative, to foreign imports islam or christianity.

today, i think, sikhs and hindus, especially in delhi, may be probing each other, and wish to renew the long held bonds, which were broken by operation bluestar. surprisingly, sikhs have a special bond with tamils, B & NB. they like us. the dmk loved the sikhs.

so, to sum up, the sikhs are not hindus. like jains or buddhists, they are a distinct india born anti dote to brahmanic hinduism.

sorry, did not mean to bring out caste here, but it is inevitable when you discuss socio history of india.

interestingly, there is a thriving community of white sikhs. even the women wear the turban. look cute

 

[prasad1]

In the days of Mughal oppression, which intensified in the 18th century as the Sikhs openly defied Mughal leadership both local and upward, many Hindu families would offer their firstborn sons to join the Khalsa Army to aid in this cause.
The word sikh comes from Sanskrit word Sikhtcha, meaning teaching.

Nanak, was born in a Khatri family. However, he declared that all are equal in the eyes of God in his famous proclamation "I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim."[SUP]][/SUP] A unity between Hindus and Muslims under the teachings and revelations of the Guru. The Guru had some familiar and common beliefs as in Hindu concepts like Karma, Dharma, Reincarnation, and meditating on God's name to break the cycle of birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_and_Sikhism

Just an interesting observation.

We have two gurudwars in my city. The affluent one and the working class one. The working class one call the affluent one as brahmin gurudwara.

There is a strong Khalistan wing, that will be very opposed to any mixing of Hindu's and Sikhs. Except that they wanted our strengths in number after 9-11 when the were scared.
We would go from the Hindu center to show strength, and support on the congregation days.

The Guru Granth Sahib contains around 15,028 of references to Hindu concepts and the names of Hindu gods.

A near-exact count is given in K.P. Agrawala: Adi Shrî Gurû Granth Sâhib kî Mahimâ (Hindi: “The greatness of the original sacred Guru scripture”), p.2, and in Ram Swarup: “Hindu roots of Sikhism”.

The name of the Hindu god Shri Ram, is recited 2,400 times, (the gods name whose constant repetition leads to salvation).

Hari (Vishnu) over 8,300 times, 630 times by Guru Nanak alone,

Parabrahman, 550 times, Omkara, (the primeval sound of OM) 400 times.

Arya Samaj did more to rejuvenate Hinduism. They not only renounced caste, they also liberated women.


I have my bias, but.
Who is not a Hindu?
Animate and inanimate objects of the world, known universe, Unknown universes. There is room for all. Except for people who think they are different and consider themselves something else.

I agree with K, that they do not worship Idols, but all Hindus do not worship Idols.
But sikhs reverence to the Granth Sabib, is akin to Christian symbol of Cross or Mary. So Hindus are labelled as Idol worshipper, which is absolutely wrong, all religions need symbols, what ever they call it.

Hindus need to learn and explain at every opportunity, about their religion to others, rather than bashing over selves for the misdeeds of our forefathers.

 

[biswa]

Mr. Kunjuppu,

Thank you as always for your detailed post. Is your perception of Sikhs being a very standalone identity at all tinted by the behavior of the Canadian Sikhs? After all we know that the greatest support for Khalistan came from Canada.

So far I have not met any anti-Indian/anti-Hindu Sikh, though undoubtedly there are some. I only see images of Sikhs celebrating Holi/Diwali and Hindus going to the Golden Temple, e.g. Sharukh Khan in RNBDJ.

Likewise I think most of us are reasonably proud of Manmohan Singh, Harbhajan Singh, KPS Gill etc. Is the Hindu-Sikh divide becoming a thing of the past?

 

[Nara]

...Likewise I think most of us are reasonably proud of Manmohan Singh, Harbhajan Singh, KPS Gill etc. Is the Hindu-Sikh divide becoming a thing of the past?

Hello biswa, I don't know very much about Sikhs and their religion. Yet, I wish to share some of my personal impressions about Sikhs, hope you would amuse me.

Yes, I am very proud of MMS and HS and KPSG, and many other Sikhs, but not quite Zail Singh though I think he was a decent man, at least he had loyalty. I am also not very proud of Harbhajan when he slapped Sreesanth, though I must say, to my utter surprise, Sreesanth acted like a cry baby, can't imagine anyone with fire in his belly acting like that. Well I digress.

Back to Sikhs, I always thought of Sikhs as an antidote to the pernicious hierarchical varna/caste system clamped down by Brahminism, and the excess of the Islamic establishment power. But I was thoroughly disappointed when I came to know Sikhs had their own upper castes and untouchable castes. Brahmanism does not leave you even if you leave Brahmanism I guess.

Some say Sikhism was a sort of antidote to the caste ridden Hinduism/Brahminism and the alien and oppressive Islam. But, IMO, another religion cannot be an antidote for the superstitious excess of any religion. Another religion produces its own set of fanatics, Brindanwala a case in point.

The real solution is what EVR advocated, a wholesale rejection of religion, and god if I may add. Let us aspire for something higher, something that unites not divides, love and compassion of atheism, a mindset that allows you, even compels you, to love everyone just because.

So, the important question, as far as I am concerned, is not how Hindu a Sikh is, but it is how human a Hindu or Sikh is.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

sikhs are worshippers of granth sahib,a religious scripture.nirguna brahman is what hindus call it.no image of god,but religious icons are plenty.every religion today was born out of sanathana dharma and each of the religion is eternal.sun rays are from sun and as long as sun exists the rays exist.as long as sanathana dharma exists all religion will exist.when i say exist,people believing in god or scriptural spiritual life .

 

[biswa]

Well yesterday I saw another Sikh family in the Navratri celebrations at the temple. Nowadays many Sikhs here cut off the hair or wear a baseball cap. So there could be more, one never knows.

 

[prasad1]

Biswa,
It should not bother you. People of all religion and even agnostic, and atheist are generally welcome to a Hindu place, at least in US & Canada. They come with respect to your place of worship, and there is close connection with that community. As I said in my earlier post the 1st born even in Hindu family was given to Khalsa (sikhism). So they are our brothers. Respect their practice, we often go to Gurudwara.

 

[biswa]

Really it does not bother me at all. I actually appreciated it when the whole family came out decked in all their finery.

 

[prasad1]

Really it does not bother me at all. I actually appreciated it when the whole family came out decked in all their finery.

That is good, I am sorry from your post it appeared that it bothered you. I am sorry if I misspoke.

 

[sangom]

Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, in favour of casteless Bhakti marga. It was a reaction to the extreme caste-based sectarianism of Hinduism. Perhaps it was the north Indian counterpart of the vaishnava bhakti cult of south India. But the poison of casteism has spoiled Sikhism also. That is the (evil) power of casteism; its half-life is comparable to Indium 115 (441 x 10[SUP]12 [/SUP]years).

 

[Govinda]

Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, in favour of casteless Bhakti marga. It was a reaction to the extreme caste-based sectarianism of Hinduism. Perhaps it was the north Indian counterpart of the vaishnava bhakti cult of south India. But the poison of casteism has spoiled Sikhism also. That is the (evil) power of casteism; its half-life is comparable to Indium 115 (441 x 10[SUP]12 [/SUP]years).

Sangom,

Sikhism was purely started to fight Moghuls not to challenge Hindu Varna system. They are proud of their warriorship and adore those swords to mark their qualities. They were originally kshatriyas (katri), possibly descendents of Lava/Kush. Sikhism simply adopted the monotheism and the beard etc, the outwardly appearances to appease Islam, but its basic tenets are similar to Bhagavad Gita.

Khatri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kunjuppu]

Sangom,

Sikhism was purely started to fight Moghuls not to challenge Hindu Varna system. They are proud of their warriorship and adore those swords to mark their qualities. They were originally kshatriyas (katri), possibly descendents of Lava/Kush. Sikhism simply adopted the monotheism and the beard etc, the outwardly appearances to appease Islam, but its basic tenets are similar to Bhagavad Gita.

Khatri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

govinda,

whoever wrote in wikipedia is wrong. sikihism per the book is casteless. idol-less. it is more a home grown version of islam than hinduism.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

suresh,

i do not think that sikhism was born to 'protect' hinduism. if hindus do not care to 'protect' their way of life, it is not worth protecting.

also, sikhism, in its original form, was a movement against castes and multiple gods. if i remember right, the sikhs consider only the adi granth as the book to follow, their equivalent of koran.

sikhism might have been started, as a local indian punjabi anti dote to islam. but it too took on converts, mostly from hinduism.

over time, it has morphed into castes and the jats have no love for ramgarhias, their equivalent of dalits.

till the 1950s, i have heard, that it was the practice of punjabi hindus, to have their first born son, raised as a sikh. i do not know how far that is true. i do know that this practice was suspended during the khalistan movement prime time, but may have resumed now.

the sikhs too felt the trauma of partition, and the state of punjab was a consolation prize, as opposed to punjabi subha, which was equivalent to kashmir in status, if not a completely independent state.

the congress party's shenanigans laid the seed for the khalistan movement. i think indira gandhi was primarily responsible for its growth. the sikh communities abroad galvanized in their financial support, and still the pogrom on the sikhs, post indira gandhi assassinatinon, has left wounds which have not healed.

sikhs themselves, i think, considered themselves as a distinct group, but since this was a home grown faith, hindus had little trouble identifying with it. its monotheistic absolutism is attractive, and is a viable alternative, to foreign imports islam or christianity.

today, i think, sikhs and hindus, especially in delhi, may be probing each other, and wish to renew the long held bonds, which were broken by operation bluestar. surprisingly, sikhs have a special bond with tamils, B & NB. they like us. the dmk loved the sikhs.

so, to sum up, the sikhs are not hindus. like jains or buddhists, they are a distinct india born anti dote to brahmanic hinduism.

sorry, did not mean to bring out caste here, but it is inevitable when you discuss socio history of india.

interestingly, there is a thriving community of white sikhs. even the women wear the turban. look cute

Sikhism did not happen to protect hindus.There are some details in this.

Guru Nanak was the first guru and he made a egalitarian sect without caste boundaries and it was a normal sect like we have so many now.Anyone could be a sikh,it was like a spiritual movement and many people became sikhs especially the lower castes.The real change in Sikhism came when Guru Gbind Singh became the tenth Guru of the Sikhs and he started the Khalsa movement which was a warrior cult born to fight the oppression of the Mughal Empire against Non-Muslims.The Khalsa was made to protect non-muslims.

The Khalsa brought the 5 K rules,

Kesh- To not shave the body hair

Kanga- To keep a comb to keep the hair kempt.

Karra- The metal barcelet to wear(There is a logic behind it,to give men confidence)

Kirrpan - The Dagger they keep

Kachera - The linen underwear or langoti

When this started lot of Jatts started converting to Hinduism and Mohyal Brahmins along with other Khatris and Rajputs started giving their first son to sikhism.

Persay along with Sikhism,Jainism and Buddhism are also pretty much in the hindu fold and thei gods and faith and akin and similar to Hinduism.

Khalsa was made only to protect people against Islamic terror.

Jatts hate Sainis and RamGarhias not because they are dalits but because they are on the same scale fighting for power.

They are all agrarian based farmer/warrior cults.

They are very similar to Pillai/Thevar/Muadaliar of TamizhNadu.Thevars have an upper hand and they are like Jatts.

RamGarhias were masons,builders and other stuff.

Sainis are also farmers but vegetable farmers,Jatts are Wheat and Mustard Farmers.

Sikhs and Hindus always had a good relationship and will continue to do so.They hate the Baniyas/Businessmen as there is a history of Baniya Moneylenders exploting the Jatt peasants.

Brahmins and Khatris are pretty much inter mixed with Jatts and Rajputs and they have no bad blood.

Sikhs,Jains and Buddhists are pretty much in the hindu fold and in line with the brahminical hinduism.

Regarding the politics of Punjab,Indira Gandhi played games bigtime.It is a dark chapter of India and luckily it ended.

The biggest problem was that Hindus and Sikhs made the prosperous Pakistani Punjab which gets all the five rivers irrigating the land compared to the Indian punjab which only gets two.

So,they were the worst hit by the partition.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

In the days of Mughal oppression, which intensified in the 18th century as the Sikhs openly defied Mughal leadership both local and upward, many Hindu families would offer their firstborn sons to join the Khalsa Army to aid in this cause.
The word sikh comes from Sanskrit word Sikhtcha, meaning teaching.

Nanak, was born in a Khatri family. However, he declared that all are equal in the eyes of God in his famous proclamation "I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim."[SUP]][/SUP] A unity between Hindus and Muslims under the teachings and revelations of the Guru. The Guru had some familiar and common beliefs as in Hindu concepts like Karma, Dharma, Reincarnation, and meditating on God's name to break the cycle of birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_and_Sikhism

Just an interesting observation.

We have two gurudwars in my city. The affluent one and the working class one. The working class one call the affluent one as brahmin gurudwara.

There is a strong Khalistan wing, that will be very opposed to any mixing of Hindu's and Sikhs. Except that they wanted our strengths in number after 9-11 when the were scared.
We would go from the Hindu center to show strength, and support on the congregation days.

The Guru Granth Sahib contains around 15,028 of references to Hindu concepts and the names of Hindu gods.

A near-exact count is given in K.P. Agrawala: Adi Shrî Gurû Granth Sâhib kî Mahimâ (Hindi: “The greatness of the original sacred Guru scripture”), p.2, and in Ram Swarup: “Hindu roots of Sikhism”.

The name of the Hindu god Shri Ram, is recited 2,400 times, (the gods name whose constant repetition leads to salvation).

Hari (Vishnu) over 8,300 times, 630 times by Guru Nanak alone,

Parabrahman, 550 times, Omkara, (the primeval sound of OM) 400 times.

Arya Samaj did more to rejuvenate Hinduism. They not only renounced caste, they also liberated women.


I have my bias, but.
Who is not a Hindu?
Animate and inanimate objects of the world, known universe, Unknown universes. There is room for all. Except for people who think they are different and consider themselves something else.

I agree with K, that they do not worship Idols, but all Hindus do not worship Idols.
But sikhs reverence to the Granth Sabib, is akin to Christian symbol of Cross or Mary. So Hindus are labelled as Idol worshipper, which is absolutely wrong, all religions need symbols, what ever they call it.

Hindus need to learn and explain at every opportunity, about their religion to others, rather than bashing over selves for the misdeeds of our forefathers.

Those NRI sikhs are just some brainwashed kids,nothing more.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Hello biswa, I don't know very much about Sikhs and their religion. Yet, I wish to share some of my personal impressions about Sikhs, hope you would amuse me.

Yes, I am very proud of MMS and HS and KPSG, and many other Sikhs, but not quite Zail Singh though I think he was a decent man, at least he had loyalty. I am also not very proud of Harbhajan when he slapped Sreesanth, though I must say, to my utter surprise, Sreesanth acted like a cry baby, can't imagine anyone with fire in his belly acting like that. Well I digress.

Back to Sikhs, I always thought of Sikhs as an antidote to the pernicious hierarchical varna/caste system clamped down by Brahminism, and the excess of the Islamic establishment power. But I was thoroughly disappointed when I came to know Sikhs had their own upper castes and untouchable castes. Brahmanism does not leave you even if you leave Brahmanism I guess.

Some say Sikhism was a sort of antidote to the caste ridden Hinduism/Brahminism and the alien and oppressive Islam. But, IMO, another religion cannot be an antidote for the superstitious excess of any religion. Another religion produces its own set of fanatics, Brindanwala a case in point.

The real solution is what EVR advocated, a wholesale rejection of religion, and god if I may add. Let us aspire for something higher, something that unites not divides, love and compassion of atheism, a mindset that allows you, even compels you, to love everyone just because.

So, the important question, as far as I am concerned, is not how Hindu a Sikh is, but it is how human a Hindu or Sikh is.

Cheers!

Yet another EVR apologist.

Divisions will always exist among people in one name or another,caste is just the oldest.

Hinduism is a culture,even atheists can be hindu.To get out of brahmanical ritualistic cults,you are free already to do that.

Sikhs never had upper castes,Jatts became Sikhs and continued to be Jatts thats all.It is all political.Jatts didn't join Sikhism,they joined Khalsa.

 

[prasad1]

EVR was another politician plying his trade, at the expense of poor brahmins.

 

[biswa]

How Hindu are the Muslims?

On a related note, I present Mann Mohana from Jodha Akbar:

[video=youtube;HtM8rdN1w-8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtM8rdN1w-8[/video]

Anybody know who the lyricist and the music composer are?

It is uploaded by one Majid Khan though.

 

[prasad1]

On a related note, I present Mann Mohana from Jodha Akbar:

[video=youtube;HtM8rdN1w-8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtM8rdN1w-8[/video]

Anybody know who the lyricist and the music composer are?

It is uploaded by one Majid Khan though.

Lyrics: Javeed Akhtar
Music Director: A R Rahman

 

[biswa]

Lyrics: Javeed Akhtar
Music Director: A R Rahman

There you go.

I saw this pretty interesting interview with Javed Akhtar about this song and he says: "People think that Javed Akhtar can't write bhajans. But I can and do write bhajans". Rahman of course can do anything. This one is almost like a classic Meera Bhajan.

I think the enlightened Muslims let's say Javed Akhtar, Shabana Azmi, Naseeruddin Shah are not that diff from Hindus. Naseerudding even married a Hindu (Brahmin?)