How others view us

[kunjuppu]

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Come what may, i have always been curious as to how other tamil communities view us. that some hate us regardless, is well know, but i wish to believe these are more personal quirks, though spread right across.

it does not mean that i am looking for praises or paens. just observations. that is all.

s.ramakrishnan does not give much views, but jayamohan does. some have termed him anti brahmin. to most, he is pro hindutva. i personally do not like jaymo has any dislike of us. but he does not hesitate to call a spade one.

also, i feel he has a far more deep understanding of our psyche, and i have found sympathy in surprising places in his various writings.

though i could not understand the character of the wicked tambram housewife and her treatment of the NB servant on her reaching maturity, and why jaymo should insert it into the story. he has his excuses, but why have it in the first place at all, as it had nothing to do with the main story.

another blogger whom i find fascinating in his observations in jothiji, whose blogs i have referred here a few times. i have always found him with a sympathetic understanding of tambrams, and the tribulations the community faces in the face of harsh governmental exclusions re jobs and colleges.

below is an interesting observation from this blogpost. so very typical of us, and so nicely observed....

ஒரே ஒரு மாணவனின் அப்பா மட்டும் அழகப்பா கல்லூரியில் எழுத்தராக பணிபுரிந்து கொண்டிருந்தார். இவன் அப்பா மட்டும் அரசாங்கப் பணியில் இருந்தார்.

அவன் முற்பட்ட வகுப்பு என்பதோடு அவனைச் சார்ந்த மற்ற குடும்பத்தினரும் அவன் படிப்பதற்கான சூழ்நிலையை உருவாக்கியிருந்தார்கள். நானும் என்னைச் சார்ந்த மற்ற நண்பர்களும் ஆட்டம் போட கண்மாய் பக்கம் செல்லும் போது அவர்கள் வீட்டைத் தாண்டி தான் செல்ல வேண்டும்.. அப்போது அவர்கள் குடும்பத்தில் உள்ள அத்தை, மாமா, தாத்தா, சகோதர சகோதரிகளுடன் அவன் விளையாடிக் கொண்டு இருப்பான்.

செஸ், கேரம் போர்டு என்று அறிவு சார்ந்த குறிப்பாக எங்களைப் போல அடிக்கும் அத்தனை வெயிலையும் தலையில் வாங்கிக் கொள்ளாமல் வீட்டுக்குள்ளேயே விளையாடிக் கொண்டிருப்பான்.என்னைப் போல நண்பர்களுடன் வந்து இயல்பான விளையாட்டுகளின் அவன் பங்கெடுத்துக் கொண்டதில்லை.

நான் பத்தாம் வகுப்பு முடிக்கும் வரையிலும் டிக்சனரி என்றொரு விசயமே தெரியாது. கல்லூரி வந்த போது தான் தெரிய ஆரம்பித்தது. ஆனால் அவன் டிக்சனரியை தொடக்க கல்வி நிலையிலேயே இயல்பாக பயன்படுத்திக் கொண்டிருந்தான்.

அவனின் வாழ்க்கை முறையே வேறுபாடாக இருந்தது..

ஒவ்வொரு வகுப்பிலும் அவன் தான் முதல் ரேங்க். பாடத்திற்கு அப்பாற்பட்ட யோசிக்கத் தெரிந்தவனும் அவன் மட்டுமே. ஆனால் அவனும் ஆங்கில வழிக்கல்வியில் படிக்காமல் தமிழ் வழிக் கல்வியில் தான் எங்களுடன் படித்தான்.

ஆனால் அவனுக்கு கிடைத்த சூழ்நிலை, அவன் அதை எடுத்துக் கொண்ட விதம் என்று எல்லாவகையிலும் சாதகமாக மாற்றிக் கொண்டான். முற்பட்ட வகுப்பு என்ற ஒரு காரணத்தினால் சமூகத்தில் அவன் நிலைநிறுத்திக் கொள்ள ரொம்பவே போராடிக் கொண்டுருபபதை பலமுறை பார்த்து இருக்கின்றேன்.

அவன் சென்னை சென்றதும் ரயில்வே பரிட்சை எழுதி இன்று உயர்பதவியில் இருக்கின்றான்.

jothiji has written a book, டாலர் நகரம், which chronicles the rise and fall of tiruppur, as a textile centre, and the resulting havoc on the environment and society. it is in my read list.

 

[Govinda]

Kunjuppu Sir,

I have seen TamBrahms who blame the caste reservations, but when they land up abroad, their favorite girlfriends are mary, barbara, stella etc. So, where did their principles go? So, their blame on reservations, are only for local rat-racing.

Caste reservations are some rules of the government. We have always been in the forward/general class and been competitive and intelligent. So, we should use our intelligence, smartness, talents to come up with new ideas and develop survival skills and also be useful to the society.

Why are we bogged down by those rules? Why do you want tambrahms to be rat-racers? There are always genuine employers, wanting research/talent/aptitude skills, and we will strive to be there. Just my opinion.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Govinda,

It is my gut feeling that a vast majority of tambrams could care less about reservations, and have moved on with life.

some of us care, a minority of us, who feel that reservations is good for the country of india, and in the long run, for hinduism. considering the state of poverty ignorance sheerdeliberatecruelty towards certain groups within hinduism mainly the dalits.

for a society to prosper, the concept of education power administration etc have to have representation across all communites and castes, so that they all feel part of the process. one simply cannot have a 3% segment dominating the socioeconomic aspects of a society in the name of 'merit' ie ability to come on top of some arbitrarily jigged up tests, which has been to their favour in the past.

agreed, that had i stayed in india, it would have impacted me and mychildren. in that context i am happy i left. and for more reasons than i wish to state here. yes, you are right. the tambram boys, all of them in my opinion, given a chance to taste white skin, will jump over hoops and hurdles, to procur one

but the OP of this thread, is more to share a curiosity - of how other tamil tribes view us. i consider in that respect, a part of a lost tamil tribe - my ancestors left tamil nadu for palghat about 150 to 200 years ago, due to famine and poverty.

 

[renuka]

but the OP of this thread, is more to share a curiosity - of how other tamil tribes view us.

Dear Kunjs,

Frankly speaking all Tamil tribes would view each other with suspicion.

There is no such thing as a broad classification as TB and Non TB in my opinion.

Each caste is so specifically concerned about themselves.

I have been following some political news closely of the Malaysian Indian kind here and very very disappointed to know that caste politics still rule the scene.

The sub groups in the political party are still caste based and the so called "low" caste groups are not respected even though they hold professional jobs.

So frankly speaking there is no one innocent when it comes to how people view each other.

All I can say that the tribe that views a person based on his merit and value hardly exists!

So if you ask me..it does not really matter how anyone views another tribe.

Tinted vision can never see the truth..so I guess no need to spend time even wondering how anyone thinks of anyone.

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you renu.

it is sad that malaysian tamils are polarized into two groups. this only hindus. very sad indeed.

no wonder, the brahmins keep aloof, to their isolated brahmana sangham and live as if other tamils do not exist. very sad indeed.

thankfully i think, things are better in canada and the usa, though even here, i could be wrong.

 

[renuka]

thank you renu.

it is sad that malaysian tamils are polarized into two groups. this only hindus. very sad indeed.

no wonder, the brahmins keep aloof, to their isolated brahmana sangham and live as if other tamils do not exist. very sad indeed.

thankfully i think, things are better in canada and the usa, though even here, i could be wrong.

Dear Kunjs,

There are more than 2 groups..

BTW Kunjs >> to be frank I could have come across a TB too and not even know it or any caste for the matter.

I do not know the caste of my friends out here cos I only view them as my friend.

So in the past I would have had no idea who was which caste.

Usually I drop the friendship of those who talk about caste.

I ditched a childhood friend of mine a few years back cos I realized that she had a very low opinion about the so called "low caste" and was using the P word left right and centre.

So I ditched her.

I remember once .. a close relative of my husband on her dying bed was still talking about caste and how great her family was back in India etc..and also using the P word on death bed..so I photocopied some 108 Lord Shiva Namavali and gave it to her to recite and when she was too weak to recite I asked her son to recite it for her...it was sickening to see a person talking about caste even when they are dying..at death there is only 1 caste the caste of mortals!

So at least by reciting and hearing about 108 Lord Shiva's name she would at least stop bitching about caste and the so called lower caste.

To tell you frankly I do not even know which caste here has it Sangham etc..it just does not matter.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Kunjuppu,

I don't know if my experience would be relevant here. I noticed most NBs didn't care too much for socialising with a family if they know they are TBs. I didn't even find one family interested. On the other hand, most Malayalees are open for socialising with us ( but my wife doesn't know Malayalam, not so keen). Personally, I don't care how NBs view TBs.

Cheers!

 

[vgane]

It depends on you..If you take the first step in socializing others will go for it..Most of the times it starts with the ladies side..I have seen this in West Africa as almost the entire crowd was NB

But if you are alone without family then you can socialize with bachelors...Here too if you are veg and if other side is non veg then getting friends becomes difficult as food habits are different...Once I was not invited for a Tamil group meeting & I came to know that they had a non veg bash & hence I was not invited..

 

[renuka]

It depends on you..If you take the first step in socializing others will go for it..Most of the times it starts with the ladies side..I have seen this in West Africa as almost the entire crowd was NB

But if you are alone without family then you can socialize with bachelors...Here too if you are veg and if other side is non veg then getting friends becomes difficult as food habits are different...Once I was not invited for a Tamil group meeting & I came to know that they had a non veg bash & hence I was not invited..

Dear Vgane ji,

I feel we finally hang out with those who think like us..so this means that a person can be from any community and if he/she thinks like us they will be our friends.

Here we get invited to houses of Malays where even beef is served but they will order veg food if they know that the guest are vegetarians.

I do not really feel people choose friends just becos the caste is the common denominator.

Even in a Non Veg bash.. Vegetarian food is ordered for vegetarians and everyone can enjoy the party.

Like out here some people have BBQ and also have vegetarian food for vegetarian guest and its party and fun all nite!

 

[vgane]

I think Tambrahm has to be a prime mover in organizing get togethers with other Tamils...It may be because of hesitation of other NB about the likes & dislikes of TB's esp. food habits & also type of conversation

 

[renuka]

Dear Kunjs,

Actually now I am thinking that trying to find out how another person thinks of any one of us is like opening the Pandora's box.

Ignorance is bliss you know!LOL

 

[vgane]

Dear Kunjs,

Actually now I am thinking that trying to find out how another person thinks of any one of us is like opening the Pandora's box.

Ignorance is bliss you know!LOL

I too feel the same way, Dr Renukaji...A better way could be how do we gain respect and confidence in society.

 

[prasad1]

Kunjuppu Sir,

I have seen TamBrahms who blame the caste reservations, but when they land up abroad, their favorite girlfriends are mary, barbara, stella etc. So, where did their principles go? So, their blame on reservations, are only for local rat-racing.

Caste reservations are some rules of the government. We have always been in the forward/general class and been competitive and intelligent. So, we should use our intelligence, smartness, talents to come up with new ideas and develop survival skills and also be useful to the society.

Why are we bogged down by those rules? Why do you want tambrahms to be rat-racers? There are always genuine employers, wanting research/talent/aptitude skills, and we will strive to be there. Just my opinion.

I agree that we can survive even in adverse circumstances, but we still protest the perceived handicap. Even in USA we protest the the so called soft quota system. It is not that we can not survive, but why must we live under that burden.

 

[renuka]

I too feel the same way, Dr Renukaji...A better way could be how do we gain respect and confidence in society.

Dear Vgane ji,

Actually now at this age I never really bother what people think of me too much.....I just lead a life within the requirements of law so that I do not land in jail for any reason knowingly or unknowingly!

If we start to think that what "others think of me? "how do I get their respect..trust confidence etc"..that would be a never ending anxiety story.

Almost all communities have something to find fault with each other but actually when we try to do some introspection with our own selves itself the findings can be scary..so as I said .."Ignorance is bliss"!

So who cares yaar..no need to know about others and do not let others know the true you!

 

[Naina_Marbus]

.... I noticed most NBs didn't care too much for socialising with a family if they know they are TBs. I didn't even find one family interested. ....
Cheers!

You are right in your observation. This is what I find in the USA as well.

 

[sangom]

Once upon a time, not in the distant past, brahmins enjoyed superiority among all the castes of hindu society. But in North India, the picture, I think, had become slightly different — may be because there was the Mughal Rule during which period, even the brahmins had to behave in such a way as not to invite the ruler's wrath.

This "compulsory superiority" of brahmins and the outwardly respect and show of reverence to brahmins by the non-brahmins, all these have practically vanished now in TN and also Kerala. The Tamil brahmin (or even the Nambuthiri) caste/community in Kerala today is just as much important or unimportant as any other minuscule caste/community like Ullaadans, Malampandaarams and some others. The castes/communities who have some 'superiority' or weightage are the Nairs and Ezhavas/Thiyyas of Kerala because they have a political relevance in our election system.

Such an insignificant community like tabras should, naturally, neither expect nor try to measure or judge how other communities view us today; it will only reveal that we as a community are still hankering for recognition and hence superiority - probably in an indirect way, according to me! (Sorry Shri Kunjuppu, I don't mean to hurt you.)

At least in Kerala, the non-brahmins normally care two hoots for any brahmin - unless the former expects some benefit from the latter - except as just another human being. But if a tabra regresses into the old-world model (as most tabras do on Avani Avittam days, etc.) others tend to look at these tabras as curious, freak specimens. Rarely you will hear some vintage derisive remarks like :

பட்டன்மாருடெ பட்டும் குறியும்
பாளத்தாறும் பற பற வளியும் !!

(paṭṭaṉmāruṭe paṭṭum kuṟiyum
pāḷattāṟum paṟa paṟa vaḷiyum !!)

This is reportedly a very old joke, more than 250 years and ascribed to Kunchan Nambiar, one of the famous Malayalam poets. 'வளி'=fart. In government schools, tabra boys still are the butt of ridicule from the boys of other castes. I don't know about girls' schools.

 

[Govinda]

Sangom Sir,

This is complete pre-judice!! I remember my school days(in 80s), NB or B friends find my mom and home as refuge for good food, nice talks and motivation. Those early days, I remember, I was many times given warm welcome (with separate veg. food in a banana leaf) by NB friends. So, I would say, they have respect/regard for Brahminical principles.

NBs are no different in our hindu structure, everyone follows the same spiritual life-style (not like western, each one is individually freakish). All Indians Bs, NBs (atleast wome) get up early(5/6AM), clean up, cook food, perform puja, follow dietary schedules (as per hindu tradition), go to temples, follow festivals, do smaskArAs etc. Bs may be bit more strict/orthodox. Now, that as tech. seeps in, all have equally stepped back in puja/spirituality etc. So, As a whole, all hindus had a similar life-style, and Bs, NBS had respect for those practitioners, becos they themselves are good practitioners (esp. tamil NBs). Telugu, Kannada, Kerala (B or NB) are smarties, spirituality is part-time

I agree with the pride thing! There were/are few Bs who attach pride/ego for their anushtAnams/practices, which is no different from NBs proud of their wealth/affluence/physical-power. But, genuine practitioners are always respected in our hindu web, be it Bs or NBs. I would say, we should teach these Brahmins , to end their practice/caste-pride and also pre-judice about NBs not valuing the Brahminical tenets. Everyone do their karmAs, as they are dictated so by the authority(Scriptures) and for their own self-development (ethics/exercise/liberation), and we don't need pride or recognition for these duties!

I completely dis-agree about "compulsory superiority" thing. Those days, the Brahmins were real/rigorous practioners and even were granted agraharams by kings/mudariars/business vaishyas, there was less interaction with the non-practising NBs. Practising NBs themselves were the guardians of Bs and their services to the temples/samkArAs etc. It was actually the reverse that was true, NBs were the real patrons of Vedic/Hinduism and supported Brahmins. With the invasions and freedom struggle, famines, we lost those patrons, and up-holding the vedic/hindu pratices have become individual. So, it was a collected effort with natural good-karma/luck/prosperity in ancient India and only kings/rich always were given high-respect since Mahabharata. Now, those holding Tech gadgets and following Bollywood fashion earn Compulsory Superiority

Coming to the joke, old-time B or NBs were very healthy and physically active and followed BG in foodstyle.. The farts, may mean healthy guts, but later days, frequent ones indicate overloading, junk-eating, poor anushtAnam and poor-digestion. This shows, we are Bs , just by caste not by practice and wisdom. Even our relatives wont listen to our health tips, so we stay away from all poor-listeners - B or NB

 

[vgane]

Dear Shri Sangomji,

what is the Tamil translation of the Malayalam two liner please?

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangomji,

what is the Tamil translation of the Malayalam two liner please?

I am told that this comes in a description of some social event in a certain puranic setting. The literal meaning of the lines is:

paṭṭaṉmāruṭe = of the pattars (tabras are generally called pattar in Kerala)
paṭṭum kuṟiyum = silk cloth and religious marks(பட்டு வேஷ்டியும் விபூதிப் பட்டையும்) kuṟi here means religious mark
pāḷattāṟum = the panchakaccham is called pāḷattāṟ both by Kerala tabras and keralites
paṟa paṟa vaḷiyum =farts sounding பற பற

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

to the uninitated, sometimes, the malayalam rhyming might sound strange. even to me, a pattar, it took a while to get back into the mode.. reminded me of a thambattam that we used to sing in badagara..

vadakara nagaram valiyur nagaram maaligey peedikey paandikasaala (needless to say we had none of the 3 last mentioned ) empty boasts - are not the sole authorship of pattars alone..appears to run across all malayali communities.

 

[sangom]

Sangom Sir,

This is complete pre-judice!! I remember my school days(in 80s), NB or B friends find my mom and home as refuge for good food, nice talks and motivation. Those early days, I remember, I was many times given warm welcome (with separate veg. food in a banana leaf) by NB friends. So, I would say, they have respect/regard for Brahminical principles.

NBs are no different in our hindu structure, everyone follows the same spiritual life-style (not like western, each one is individually freakish). All Indians Bs, NBs (atleast wome) get up early(5/6AM), clean up, cook food, perform puja, follow dietary schedules (as per hindu tradition), go to temples, follow festivals, do smaskArAs etc. Bs may be bit more strict/orthodox. Now, that as tech. seeps in, all have equally stepped back in puja/spirituality etc. So, As a whole, all hindus had a similar life-style, and Bs, NBS had respect for those practitioners, becos they themselves are good practitioners (esp. tamil NBs). Telugu, Kannada, Kerala (B or NB) are smarties, spirituality is part-time

I agree with the pride thing! There were/are few Bs who attach pride/ego for their anushtAnams/practices, which is no different from NBs proud of their wealth/affluence/physical-power. But, genuine practitioners are always respected in our hindu web, be it Bs or NBs. I would say, we should teach these Brahmins , to end their practice/caste-pride and also pre-judice about NBs not valuing the Brahminical tenets. Everyone do their karmAs, as they are dictated so by the authority(Scriptures) and for their own self-development (ethics/exercise/liberation), and we don't need pride or recognition for these duties!

I completely dis-agree about "compulsory superiority" thing. Those days, the Brahmins were real/rigorous practioners and even were granted agraharams by kings/mudariars/business vaishyas, there was less interaction with the non-practising NBs. Practising NBs themselves were the guardians of Bs and their services to the temples/samkArAs etc. It was actually the reverse that was true, NBs were the real patrons of Vedic/Hinduism and supported Brahmins. With the invasions and freedom struggle, famines, we lost those patrons, and up-holding the vedic/hindu pratices have become individual. So, it was a collected effort with natural good-karma/luck/prosperity in ancient India and only kings/rich always were given high-respect since Mahabharata. Now, those holding Tech gadgets and following Bollywood fashion earn Compulsory Superiority

Coming to the joke, old-time B or NBs were very healthy and physically active and followed BG in foodstyle.. The farts, may mean healthy guts, but later days, frequent ones indicate overloading, junk-eating, poor anushtAnam and poor-digestion. This shows, we are Bs , just by caste not by practice and wisdom. Even our relatives wont listen to our health tips, so we stay away from all poor-listeners - B or NB

Dear Shri Govinda,

What I wrote about the relative interactions between Bs & NBs may be not correct in so far as TN is concerned, because my knowledge and experience about it is limited to what I remember of my few visits to my relatives' places in Kallidaikkurichi, Shencottah, Tirunelveli, and Suchindram and what I have gathered from conversations (chit-chats) with many of my relatives spread throughout TN.

What I said is, however, factual as far as Kerala (or at least southern Kerala of today) is concerned.

It seems there is some confusion about the time frame of your observations. For example, granting of agraharams by kings/mudariars/business vaishyas, etc., was a very old phenomenon; I don't know whether such grants continued even till end of 19th. century (except may be, very rarely, in the Tanjore of Mahratta kings). I was talking about "Once upon a time, not in the distant past," meaning not such ancient times but the beginning of the last century approximately. And I am of the view that by the beginning decades of the 20th. century, a significant percentage of tabras in TN (and also in Travancore where the royal house gave great preference to brahmins in all sarkaar jobs) had left their old ways of what you refer to as "real/rigorous practioners" and had deteriorated to the shudra status of paid employees of one kind or another. What they (the tabras) enjoyed during that period was only the superiority reflecting on them because of the government jobs (be it Travancore government or Madras Presidency government) and the influence such position commanded, and very little because of any brahminical practises; that is why I chose the words "commanded superiority".

Hope I have explained my position.

 

[Vaagmi]

Once upon a time, not in the distant past, brahmins enjoyed superiority among all the castes of hindu society. But in North India, the picture, I think, had become slightly different — may be because there was the Mughal Rule during which period, even the brahmins had to behave in such a way as not to invite the ruler's wrath.

This "compulsory superiority" of brahmins and the outwardly respect and show of reverence to brahmins by the non-brahmins, all these have practically vanished now in TN and also Kerala. The Tamil brahmin (or even the Nambuthiri) caste/community in Kerala today is just as much important or unimportant as any other minuscule caste/community like Ullaadans, Malampandaarams and some others. The castes/communities who have some 'superiority' or weightage are the Nairs and Ezhavas/Thiyyas of Kerala because they have a political relevance in our election system.

Such an insignificant community like tabras should, naturally, neither expect nor try to measure or judge how other communities view us today; it will only reveal that we as a community are still hankering for recognition and hence superiority - probably in an indirect way, according to me! (Sorry Shri Kunjuppu, I don't mean to hurt you.)

At least in Kerala, the non-brahmins normally care two hoots for any brahmin - unless the former expects some benefit from the latter - except as just another human being. But if a tabra regresses into the old-world model (as most tabras do on Avani Avittam days, etc.) others tend to look at these tabras as curious, freak specimens. Rarely you will hear some vintage derisive remarks like :

பட்டன்மாருடெ பட்டும் குறியும்
பாளத்தாறும் பற பற வளியும் !!

(paṭṭaṉmāruṭe paṭṭum kuṟiyum
pāḷattāṟum paṟa paṟa vaḷiyum !!)

This is reportedly a very old joke, more than 250 years and ascribed to Kunchan Nambiar, one of the famous Malayalam poets. 'வளி'=fart. In government schools, tabra boys still are the butt of ridicule from the boys of other castes. I don't know about girls' schools.

I have heard this too frequently in Kerala and it speaks for itself:

பட்டன்மாரில் பொட்டன் இல்லா

பொட்டன் means fool.

 

[vgane]

I think we can live in our own world in any part of the country..Let us be ourselves..Let us do our duties and not bothered about what others think about us..

Let us be religious

But let us not be bigoted

Let us wear our religious symbols with gusto,

But let us not forget the power of wisdom

Let us do our duties to the departed

But let us not forget our duties to the living elders

Let us help our brethren

But let us not forget to help others too in need