Is God "imperfect?"

[renuka]

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Today morning I was paying my phone bill at the service providers counter and I was the first customer of the day cos I walked in as it opened.

The girl at the counter seemed a bit moody and not too responsive to some questions asked.
But I paid my bill anyways.

Then I thought.."its morning..I am myself moody in the mornings..so may be this girl too has some mood swings"

Then I smiled at her and she finally smiled back.

I think she did not expect a person to smile at her when she was not responsive to me earlier.

Now I am quite sure if anyone else in my place would have got slightly annoyed with her cos she did not actually address a few questions asked earlier.

But why didn't I get annoyed?

The reason is cos I know I too can get moody and not want to communicate especially in the early morning at 8.30am. I myself do not like a patient walking in right away when I open my clinic.
I know I need to 'warm up' before I can respond to human beings.

So here this girl could have been like me..feeling moody to see a customer so early..may be she needed to warm up too.

So I smiled and it seemed to help her slowly break into a smile.

Now since I do not have perfect moods I did not find this girl's Public Relation skills to be all that bad but anyone else would have found it not up to the mark.

So its becos of my 'imperfection' that I feel compassion and tolerance for another..thinking that they could be like me and I do not get angry.

What if a person is near perfect in moods..a person who can start the day normally..no need to 'warm' up..no Monday Blues..no mood swings..I am pretty sure these sort of near perfect individuals would expect perfection and be less compassionate and forgiving becos their mental make up does not know 'imperfection'.

Now lets see this from the macrocosmic point of view.

From the Non Advaitic view God is the Karuna Sagar..the compassionate One who runs to His Bhaktas in time of need as we are made to believe.

So is the Non Advaitic God 'imperfect" in order to have that much compassion?

If God is "perfect" how can He have compassion?

On the other hand if we view God as an eternal witness who does not get involved in the Karmic cycle..only then He can be perfect.

So going by this only the Advaitic view can have a Perfect God and the Non-Advaitic view would deal with a Imperfect God.

So which is it?

Sometimes I wish I could be like any other person who just pays the phone bill and comes home and not suddenly spring into God and Advaita but anyway its a Sunday..time for fun.

 

[chandruiyer1344]

A "perfect" God eliminates all "imperfect" creatures so that only "perfect" creations exist. Since we see all sorts of imperfections around us, it shows God is imperfect and compassionate as you are. And therefore God and you are both imperfect and compassionate and to some extent comparable. So Advaita wins.-Chandru

 

[sangom]

Today morning I was paying my phone bill at the service providers counter and I was the first customer of the day cos I walked in as it opened.

The girl at the counter seemed a bit moody and not too responsive to some questions asked.
But I paid my bill anyways.

Then I thought.."its morning..I am myself moody in the mornings..so may be this girl too has some mood swings"

Then I smiled at her and she finally smiled back.

I think she did not expect a person to smile at her when she was not responsive to me earlier.

Now I am quite sure if anyone else in my place would have got slightly annoyed with her cos she did not actually address a few questions asked earlier.

But why didn't I get annoyed?

The reason is cos I know I too can get moody and not want to communicate especially in the early morning at 8.30am. I myself do not like a patient walking in right away when I open my clinic.
I know I need to 'warm up' before I can respond to human beings.

So here this girl could have been like me..feeling moody to see a customer so early..may be she needed to warm up too.

So I smiled and it seemed to help her slowly break into a smile.

Now since I do not have perfect moods I did not find this girl's Public Relation skills to be all that bad but anyone else would have found it not up to the mark.

So its becos of my 'imperfection' that I feel compassion and tolerance for another..thinking that they could be like me and I do not get angry.

What if a person is near perfect in moods..a person who can start the day normally..no need to 'warm' up..no Monday Blues..no mood swings..I am pretty sure these sort of near perfect individuals would expect perfection and be less compassionate and forgiving becos their mental make up does not know 'imperfection'.

Now lets see this from the macrocosmic point of view.

From the Non Advaitic view God is the Karuna Sagar..the compassionate One who runs to His Bhaktas in time of need as we are made to believe.

So is the Non Advaitic God 'imperfect" in order to have that much compassion?

If God is "perfect" how can He have compassion?

On the other hand if we view God as an eternal witness who does not get involved in the Karmic cycle..only then He can be perfect.

So going by this only the Advaitic view can have a Perfect God and the Non-Advaitic view would deal with a Imperfect God.

So which is it?

Sometimes I wish I could be like any other person who just pays the phone bill and comes home and not suddenly spring into God and Advaita but anyway its a Sunday..time for fun.

This is too much of an oversimplification, taking one aspect of humans and immediately transposing it onto God!

God, in my view, has no special characteristics of ITs own; IT simply is, always. But IT works through various forms such as human beings, animals, reptiles, birds and bees, even microbes and what not. God working through the body of a tiger need not have early morning moods; it will attack and kill a human even if it is 8.30 A.M., Sunday! Similarly God functioning through the physical body of a king cobra will bite. So, there is no point at all in imagining God according to what we are at different times and moods.

I have seen many kindly disposed ordinary people who will not get irritated even on Sunday mornings with visitors who may not be all that welcome for ordinary people like us. But with changes in life styles and urban, more self-centered type of living, most of us have drawn very small circles around us. We like to live within those well-defined small circles and, like wild animals, not like any intrusion into it. God has nothing to do with all these things.

 

[mkrishna100]

Today morning I was paying my phone bill at the service providers counter and I was the first customer of the day cos I walked in as it opened.

Renukaji

I am surprised that u still pay ur telephone bills at the service providers that has a staff to handle and not online .

Anyway life is to too big and complex to be understood in few simple words , we meet various type of people - some pleasing , some not pleasing and the best we can do is to stay positive and cheerful at all times especially when we meet unpleasant people . I remember in a Bank one staff was working slowly and he had to attend many customers and one customer lost his cool and shouted at him and he shouted back and each were raising their respective voices and many other customers who were silent till then also joined and it became very volatile and all due to shouting of one customer .In the end everyone was bitter and worst of all the customer left angrily without doing the job he came for .I am not saying that the staff is right and the customer is wrong only that had the customer choose to address his issue in a different manner then this mess could have been avoided and he could have also completed his job .

 

[auh]

Nice to "ventillate" (as someone put it aptly, recently) in a new thread...

This OP is presuming that there is some kind of conscious entity called "God" that is able to exercise its control over lesser beings like animals and us. With so many "imperfections" in the assumptions, it is not quite an imperfection to think that "God" has streaks of imperfections !

The Epicurean paradox

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

 

[renuka]

Renukaji

I am surprised that u still pay ur telephone bills at the service providers that has a staff to handle and not online .

.

Yup...I am kind of "old fashioned" when it comes to money and finance...no online banking,no online transactions and no credit card.

 

[renuka]

This is too much of an oversimplification, taking one aspect of humans and immediately transposing it onto God!

God, in my view, has no special characteristics of ITs own; IT simply is, always. But IT works through various forms such as human beings, animals, reptiles, birds and bees, even microbes and what not. God working through the body of a tiger need not have early morning moods; it will attack and kill a human even if it is 8.30 A.M., Sunday! Similarly God functioning through the physical body of a king cobra will bite. So, there is no point at all in imagining God according to what we are at different times and moods.

I have seen many kindly disposed ordinary people who will not get irritated even on Sunday mornings with visitors who may not be all that welcome for ordinary people like us. But with changes in life styles and urban, more self-centered type of living, most of us have drawn very small circles around us. We like to live within those well-defined small circles and, like wild animals, not like any intrusion into it. God has nothing to do with all these things.

Dear Sangom ji,

I know it sounds a bit 'crazy' to link human behaviour with God but on the other hand why not?

After all the microcosm is supposed to mimic the macrocosm and by analyzing every aspect of human behavior can we actually get an idea how God or "It" functions?

 

[kr sekar]

First of all it is not understood what prompted Renuka to post this post. God is as perfect as the law of nature. We invoke the God to be with us and seek his favour even while booking a rail ticket. If perfection of God is to be analysed with "moods" of human, then there will no end to the process. Go by the dictum that God is always perfect and whatever happens with you is all for good - that which has happened, that which is happening and that which will happen in future.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

As we create endless godmen and godwomen, and whenever these people create any nonsense, it directly affects the God. People start criticizing the act of God, which is actually being done by godmen and godwomen.

 

[a-TB]

First of all it is not understood what prompted Renuka to post this post. God is as perfect as the law of nature. We invoke the God to be with us and seek his favour even while booking a rail ticket. If perfection of God is to be analysed with "moods" of human, then there will no end to the process. Go by the dictum that God is always perfect and whatever happens with you is all for good - that which has happened, that which is happening and that which will happen in future.

Mr Sekar: How did you get configured as newbie when you have 1000 experience points?

 

[a-TB]

Madam Renuka:

You write about God many times including here in this thread. I noticed that you 'religiously' keep the 'Sai lives' thread on a daily basis.

Can I ask you if you think Sai Baba is God for you and not a human being? Do you believe in the stories that he defied laws of nature and produced gold items? Do you think some of the stories about him (if he is God in your mind) are false and those saying that are liars?

 

[a-TB]

Nice to "ventillate" (as someone put it aptly, recently) in a new thread...

This OP is presuming that there is some kind of conscious entity called "God" that is able to exercise its control over lesser beings like animals and us. With so many "imperfections" in the assumptions, it is not quite an imperfection to think that "God" has streaks of imperfections !

The Epicurean paradox

Same God may be appearing as evil as part of his game
Your Epicurean paradox may have no standing !

 

[yesmohan]

What appears to me as "perfect" may be short in level to another one's yard stick.

After all, "perfection" is totally a subjective concept.

 

[vgane]

Madam Renuka:

You write about God many times including here in this thread. I noticed that you 'religiously' keep the 'Sai lives' thread on a daily basis.

Can I ask you if you think Sai Baba is God for you and not a human being? Do you believe in the stories that he defied laws of nature and produced gold items? Do you think some of the stories about him (if he is God in your mind) are false and those saying that are liars?

Dear TB,

I think as a group we have decided not to criticize Sai Baba (both old & new) in our threads...Let us not prick the author through this thread

 

[a-TB]

Dear TB,

I think as a group we have decided not to criticize Sai Baba (both old & new) in our threads...Let us not prick the author through this thread

Dear Mr vgane:

My sincere apologies to anyone if my post came across as pricking anyone. It was not intended that way,

Regardless, thank for the information.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom ji,

I know it sounds a bit 'crazy' to link human behaviour with God but on the other hand why not?

After all the microcosm is supposed to mimic the macrocosm and by analyzing every aspect of human behavior can we actually get an idea how God or "It" functions?

Smt. Renuka,

This talk of the macrocosm imitating the microcosm, or vice versa, is not scientifically proven. Of course whether one goes down into the microcosm or outwards into the macrocosm, both "appear" to be awesomely daunting. But this does not mean that god is or must be like us.

If your argument is extended the god should be venomous like a king cobra, ferocious like a hungry cheetah, voracious like a sperm whale and mutable like a virus. If any entity has to have all such features at the same time, it has to be "nirguna", a blank screen on which any image can be transposed at whatever speed one wants to.

 

[sangom]

Dear TB,

I think as a group we have decided not to criticize Sai Baba (both old & new) in our threads...Let us not prick the author through this thread

It is not the group's decision, but the condition put on members by the owner-moderator.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Is God "imperfect"?

Who is to decide one is "perfect" or "imperfect" ? There is no definitions for these words. Let us not try to catch the tail of the tiger and go round the tree again and again, without knowing how to leave it. Science has tried to find an answer to creation and even found an answer to "how" it works, but could not find an answer for "why" it works?

“One of the basic rules of the universe is that nothing is perfect. Perfection simply doesn't exist.....Without imperfection, neither you nor I would exist”
― Stephen Hawking

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[auh]

Dear TB,

I think as a group we have decided not to criticize Sai Baba (both old & new) in our threads...Let us not prick the author through this thread

Sir, which group is it? Group 1, or Group 2 or Group 3...?

Confused? I also learnt about these three groups only today.

 

[auh]

Same God may be appearing as evil as part of his game
Your Epicurean paradox may have no standing !

It is actually covered in the paradox:

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

 

[prasad1]

In Hinduism, Brahman connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss that does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind the diversity in all that exists in the universe.
Brahman is a Vedic Sanskrit word, and is conceptualized in Hinduism, states Paul Deussen, as the "creative principle that lies realized in the whole world". Brahman is a key concept found in Vedas, and extensively discussed in the early Upanishads.[SUP][[/SUP] The Vedas conceptualize Brahman as the Cosmic Principles In the Upanishads, it has been variously described as Sat-cit-ānanda (being-consciousness-bliss) and as the highest reality.
Brahman is discussed in Hindu texts with the concept of Atman (Soul, Self),[SUP][[/SUP] personal,[SUP][[/SUP] impersonal or Para Brahman, or in various combinations of these qualities depending on the philosophical school. In dualistic schools of Hinduism such as the theistic Dvaita Vedanta, Brahman is different from Atman (soul) in each being, and therein it shares conceptual framework of God in major world religions. In non-dual schools of Hinduism such as the monist Advaita Vedanta, Brahman is identical to the Atman, Brahman is everywhere and inside each living being, and there is connected spiritual oneness in all existence.

In this definition of God, there is no room for imperfection.

 

[renuka]

Madam Renuka:

You write about God many times including here in this thread. I noticed that you 'religiously' keep the 'Sai lives' thread on a daily basis.

Can I ask you if you think Sai Baba is God for you and not a human being? Do you believe in the stories that he defied laws of nature and produced gold items? Do you think some of the stories about him (if he is God in your mind) are false and those saying that are liars?

Sorry for late reply..it was independence day yesterday here..so I was offline most of the time.

I will answer this question to the best of my knowledge.

My current understanding of everything is ever changing..if you ask me now who is God and who is not God my answer would be "I would not like to define anything anymore".

If it is indeed Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma..then who or what is not God/Brahman?


Yes..I have personally witnessed Sathya Sai Baba materialize objects right in front of my eyes in India..ranging from Vibuthi to lockets and my dad even wears one such locket given to him.
He had cured my mother from a brain tumor before too which I can not deny.

Reading all Sathya Sai Baba's books since a young made me gain interest to explore religion more and that led me to even learn Sanskrit.His discourses are very detail yet simple and well explained which has helped me shape my current understanding.

Just to add my current understanding does not include any specific prayer..that is why I had closed my house prayer room to but I still keep the Sai thread alive becos I started that thread.

I would not call myself 'religious' anymore and neither am I an atheist or agnostic.

 

[yesmohan]

Yes..I have personally witnessed Sathya Sai Baba materialize objects right in front of my eyes in India..ranging from Vibuthi to lockets and my dad even wears one such locket given to him.
He had cured my mother from a brain tumor before too which I can not deny.

Sometimes seeing is believing ?

 

[renuka]

My question is "Does something that is Perfect actually feel?"

Don't we have to have Gunas in order to feel?

Is it only Saguna Brahman that "feels" since Saguna has Sattva Guna.

So is Saguna "imperfect"?

 

[a-TB]

Sorry for late reply..it was independence day yesterday here..so I was offline most of the time.

I will answer this question to the best of my knowledge.

My current understanding of everything is ever changing..if you ask me now who is God and who is not God my answer would be "I would not like to define anything anymore".

If it is indeed Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma..then who or what is not God/Brahman?


Yes..I have personally witnessed Sathya Sai Baba materialize objects right in front of my eyes in India..ranging from Vibuthi to lockets and my dad even wears one such locket given to him.
He had cured my mother from a brain tumor before too which I can not deny.

Reading all Sathya Sai Baba's books since a young made me gain interest to explore religion more and that led me to even learn Sanskrit.His discourses are very detail yet simple and well explained which has helped me shape my current understanding.

Just to add my current understanding does not include any specific prayer..that is why I had closed my house prayer room to but I still keep the Sai thread alive becos I started that thread.

I would not call myself 'religious' anymore and neither am I an atheist or agnostic.

Dear Renuka Madam:
Thank you so much for your detailed reply.

Now if you have spent so much time thinking and writing about God, why is your understanding ever changing? Do you think what you previously believed is mostly wrong now?

What triggers confusion to come up?

I live saying ignorance is bliss LoL