Is it now the time to question Science?

[sravna]

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Science is obsessed with reductionism, trying to reduce everything to its most elementary form. For example, physicists probed the atom and found out more elementary particles which was later found to contain even more elementary particles. Similarly with other disciplines of Science.

A concept or form is always dissected and sought to be reduced into its elements. This is similar to blind men analyzing an elephant. They probe each part separately and conclude totally erroneously of what an elephant is.

A better idea than probing each part in greater detail, would be to first figure out the relationship between the various parts and try to arrive at the big picture first. That will give you more plentiful clues to the nature of what is being probed.

The separate disciplines of physics, chemistry , biology and various other disciples progressing without meaningfully correlating the various knowledge of each discipline, is IMO a flawed approach.

Spiritual knowledge is better in this sense because it is much more concerned with the subtler aspects than the gross aspects. Thus it is more concerned with the connections. Someone with a good understanding of such knowledge is in a better position to arrive at a correct picture of the lower knowledge , one that is consistent with the spiritual knowledge.

Unless Science connects the parts it will never see the true picture.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Rightly said. They have assembled different parts to make a scooter, car, train or plane, rocket. But god has made things to grow on their own and to probe what, how, when, etc. The questions end with "why". Science is science because god is science.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sravna Sir, Greetings.

To my understanding, science gets questioned, tested, peer reviewed and proved before gets accepted. That is in general.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Sri.Sravna Sir, Greetings.

To my understanding, science gets questioned, tested, peer reviewed and proved before gets accepted. That is in general.

Cheers!

Dear Shri.Raghy,

My point is not that science is not questioned. It is questioned, peer reviewed and only then accepted. My question is: Are right questions being asked? Only then you get the right answers.

For example if you think the problems of society can be solved by advances in technology than by elevation of mind, then there is this problem I am talking about.

 

[Brahin]

Problem is not with science but with the scientist.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri.Raghy,

My point is not that science is not questioned. It is questioned, peer reviewed and only then accepted. My question is: Are right questions being asked? Only then you get the right answers.

For example if you think the problems of society can be solved by advances in technology than by elevation of mind, then there is this problem I am talking about.

Sri. Sravna,

In the case of questining science and technology, the questions essentially focus on it's function and economic vaibility etc. Such questions are essentially technical, economical and coomercial.

Advancement in science and technology may provide physical and sense comforts and gratifications. Also can provide employment and livelihood. Some of the problems in society like housing, medecine etc, again comfort based issues may be solved by science and technology.

But psychological issues can be solved mostly with strong mental applications. For example, I was helping one person suffering from schizophrenia to cook his dinner. This gentleman's health is detiriorating and requires higher dose of medications to control his illness. I was standing with him in his kitchen while he was handling knief and scissors. I had to be very careful and at the same time I should be seen trusting him. It was complete mind control.

I accept when you say 'elevation of mind'. In my opinion, such elevation of mind can happen with practice. If you call control of the mind itself as spiritual, I would agree too. But I don't know if that's what you mean when mentioned 'spiritual'.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Sri. Sravna,

In the case of questining science and technology, the questions essentially focus on it's function and economic vaibility etc. Such questions are essentially technical, economical and coomercial.

Advancement in science and technology may provide physical and sense comforts and gratifications. Also can provide employment and livelihood. Some of the problems in society like housing, medecine etc, again comfort based issues may be solved by science and technology.

But psychological issues can be solved mostly with strong mental applications. For example, I was helping one person suffering from schizophrenia to cook his dinner. This gentleman's health is detiriorating and requires higher dose of medications to control his illness. I was standing with him in his kitchen while he was handling knief and scissors. I had to be very careful and at the same time I should be seen trusting him. It was complete mind control.

I accept when you say 'elevation of mind'. In my opinion, such elevation of mind can happen with practice. If you call control of the mind itself as spiritual, I would agree too. But I don't know if that's what you mean when mentioned 'spiritual'.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

Good points.

But think about this. Why should science be driven by blatant commercial interests? Can't we broaden the scope of science and bring under it subtler aspects? That way we can abate or even solve the existing antagonistic interests that exist between science and spirituality.

Don't you think that the "spiritual laws" can't be as precise or as repeatable as the physical laws. I strongly believe that the physical laws have their basis in the underlying spirituality. Again IMO, there can be nothing as deadly accurate as the unfolding of poorva janma karma. But we are not interested in broadening our vision about reality and encompass such aspects while seeking knowledge. I mean we don't have to separately practice science and spirituality. The higher knowledge contains within it the worldly knowledge.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

Good points.

But think about this. Why should science be driven by blatant commercial interests? Can't we broaden the scope of science and bring under it subtler aspects? That way we can abate or even solve the existing antagonistic interests that exist between science and spirituality.

Don't you think that the "spiritual laws" can't be as precise or as repeatable as the physical laws. I strongly believe that the physical laws have their basis in the underlying spirituality. Again IMO, there can be nothing as deadly accurate as the unfolding of poorva janma karma. But we are not interested in broadening our vision about reality and encompass such aspects while seeking knowledge. I mean we don't have to separately practice science and spirituality. The higher knowledge contains within it the worldly knowledge.

Sri. Sravna,

I for one do not think there is any antagonism exist between science and spirituality. Mainly health science goes hand in hand with spirituality. Engiinnering and manufacturing and allied research and development may be still all technical; but biology, environment, health and well being have turned towards much subtler aspects of peace and tranquility.

There is no spiritual laws as such. Personally I don't think good deed, bad deed, evil deed or anything like that exist. I already started seeing tham all in one plane, just deeds. One may challenge with a question, just to get under my skin, how would I consider a deed if one of my dear got raped? Honestly, I won't waste time bothering about analysing that deed; but I will be working overtime to repair the broken psyche of the victim. For me, this body is just flesh and bones. That's all. Quite a few health professionals think like that too. Then, society plays a major role too. Although the society where I live is branded as a society of vices, I also see much advanced thoughts too. Something to think about.

Personally I don't believe in poorva janma karma. I anticipate all my mistakes to be punished here and now; so, I do as few mistakes as possible. But i do make mistakes. I am not a saint.

Spiruality itself is a science, in my opinion. So, I never see them as seperate fields.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Sri. Sravna,

I for one do not think there is any antagonism exist between science and spirituality. Mainly health science goes hand in hand with spirituality. Engiinnering and manufacturing and allied research and development may be still all technical; but biology, environment, health and well being have turned towards much subtler aspects of peace and tranquility.

There is no spiritual laws as such. Personally I don't think good deed, bad deed, evil deed or anything like that exist. I already started seeing tham all in one plane, just deeds. One may challenge with a question, just to get under my skin, how would I consider a deed if one of my dear got raped? Honestly, I won't waste time bothering about analysing that deed; but I will be working overtime to repair the broken psyche of the victim. For me, this body is just flesh and bones. That's all. Quite a few health professionals think like that too. Then, society plays a major role too. Although the society where I live is branded as a society of vices, I also see much advanced thoughts too. Something to think about.

Personally I don't believe in poorva janma karma. I anticipate all my mistakes to be punished here and now; so, I do as few mistakes as possible. But i do make mistakes. I am not a saint.

Spiruality itself is a science, in my opinion. So, I never see them as seperate fields.

Cheers!

Dear Shri. Raghy,

The reason I think why even some good and intelligent people disown spirituality is because of the bad practices that crept in, in the guise of spirituality. The rational mind refuses to accept quack practices and these practices brought down the reputation of a respectable body of knowledge.

Secondly the advent and popularity of Science make people ask for physical evidence to accept anything as true. Since spirituality works at the subtler level it is rejected by people who bestow faith in Science.

If you look in a really unbiased manner the works of great Indian philosophers of the past, you can only be awed by their understanding of reality and how they grasped the essence so precisely. The consistency of their logic is not seen in even the so called logic driven disciplines of science.

Whatever you may say the commercially driven scientific pursuits cannot at heart care for values. It is indeed antagonistic with spirituality

So let us remove all the biases and genuinely try to embrace the ancient concepts into our current knowledge . Let us not be snobbish and be overconfident about Science.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Sravna Sir, Greetings.

In your message in post #9 you quoted my message in post #8, but unfortunately had not addressed all the points raised by me. I request you to look at the other points too, please. As you would have noticed before, I just express my mind in full. In other words, all those points raised make up my psyche. If we cut away any of the points, then I feel it's not quite right.

My discussion is not about others. In my opinion, any development is based on individual efforts. So is spiritual development. I think there is no right or wrong answer; either all the answers are right or all the answers are wrong. I am looking at the world from the point of view of " all the answers are right". My spiritual journey starts from there.

In my opinion, we can't disown or walk away from spirituality. Everyone including atheists are spiritual. Spirituality does not require religion or faith in God.It is a seperate science. Again, I call sprirituality as science. One may say eveything under science has to have physical evidence; but no. That is not the case. Some of the arts have scientific base but can never be quantified. Mostly all the sense gratifications fall under this category. For example, ( well, naturally,I choose my favourite subject) giving/receiing sexual pleasure is an art. it is based on science in both physically and psychologically; but that can't be quanitified. There, we have something scientifically accepted that has an evidence, but not measurable.

Similarly psychological advancement and elevation of the mind through suitable satsanga practices may be quite relevant for few idividuals. Such feelings can't be measured either; but can't be discounted. Personally I don't.

If we look vedanta work, ( I have not read much of them; but read very little; heard of some other works) they are not essentially based on religion or religious practices. Spriritual advancement has nothing to do with religion or God concept. Spritual advancement is an act of self development; psychological development of 'self'.

Sir, my style of discussion does not anchor on science and technology. But I have no belief in 'poorva janma karma'. I came here empty handed, I shall go back empty handed; only that concept makes sense to me. So, if you like a discussion unbiased, without seeking physical measurable evidences, which I think is fair enough, I request you not to bring 'poorva janma karma' and 'God concept' in the discussion either. We mmay keep the discussion purely on spirituality. I learned very little; know very little, but can discuss from that very little knowledge.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Sri. Sravna Sir, Greetings.

In your message in post #9 you quoted my message in post #8, but unfortunately had not addressed all the points raised by me. I request you to look at the other points too, please. As you would have noticed before, I just express my mind in full. In other words, all those points raised make up my psyche. If we cut away any of the points, then I feel it's not quite right.

My discussion is not about others. In my opinion, any development is based on individual efforts. So is spiritual development. I think there is no right or wrong answer; either all the answers are right or all the answers are wrong. I am looking at the world from the point of view of " all the answers are right". My spiritual journey starts from there.

In my opinion, we can't disown or walk away from spirituality. Everyone including atheists are spiritual. Spirituality does not require religion or faith in God.It is a seperate science. Again, I call sprirituality as science. One may say eveything under science has to have physical evidence; but no. That is not the case. Some of the arts have scientific base but can never be quantified. Mostly all the sense gratifications fall under this category. For example, ( well, naturally,I choose my favourite subject) giving/receiing sexual pleasure is an art. it is based on science in both physically and psychologically; but that can't be quanitified. There, we have something scientifically accepted that has an evidence, but not measurable.

Similarly psychological advancement and elevation of the mind through suitable satsanga practices may be quite relevant for few idividuals. Such feelings can't be measured either; but can't be discounted. Personally I don't.

If we look vedanta work, ( I have not read much of them; but read very little; heard of some other works) they are not essentially based on religion or religious practices. Spriritual advancement has nothing to do with religion or God concept. Spritual advancement is an act of self development; psychological development of 'self'.

Sir, my style of discussion does not anchor on science and technology. But I have no belief in 'poorva janma karma'. I came here empty handed, I shall go back empty handed; only that concept makes sense to me. So, if you like a discussion unbiased, without seeking physical measurable evidences, which I think is fair enough, I request you not to bring 'poorva janma karma' and 'God concept' in the discussion either. We mmay keep the discussion purely on spirituality. I learned very little; know very little, but can discuss from that very little knowledge.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

Ok, I ill not bring the concept of God or Poorva janma karma. The realization and acceptance of these is less important than the realization that real progress of humans lie not in advancing science and technology but in furthuring oneself spiritually. By spiritual I mean giving up one's ego because that is the way one's mind gets elevated. My contention always is work on your inner self first if you want to make contributions to the world. Your contribution is then likely to be constructive because your vision is not short sighted. That is the reason I think the primary focus in ancient times was on that.

That science need not rely on physical evidence for approval is the way forward for science. It needs to accept the authenticity of spiritual experiences by trying to account for them.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

Ok, I ill not bring the concept of God or Poorva janma karma. The realization and acceptance of these is less important than the realization that real progress of humans lie not in advancing science and technology but in furthuring oneself spiritually. By spiritual I mean giving up one's ego because that is the way one's mind gets elevated. My contention always is work on your inner self first if you want to make contributions to the world. Your contribution is then likely to be constructive because your vision is not short sighted. That is the reason I think the primary focus in ancient times was on that.

That science need not rely on physical evidence for approval is the way forward for science. It needs to accept the authenticity of spiritual experiences by trying to account for them.

Sri. Sravna, Greetings.

I like the way you put it together. I quite agree with you, ego would not help any advancement be it spiritual or materialistic. I am sigining off now. Will be happy to share my opinions as put forward by you soon.

Cheers!

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Just listen to what physicists of the West have to say on some of these topics:

Sanskrit Language: The Most Scientific, Ancient, Spiritual
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Brv2FaOluU
Starting around 14:10, listen.... the cosmology of the ancient Indians, that of the ancient greeks is derived from it, ....

Do take the time to watch the entire video.

 

[tks]

This topic presents a false choice in my view..

True Science is knowledge. Vedanta which has nothing to do with Hindu tradition (though the Hindu tradition is based on Vedas & teaching of Vedanta) is knowledge. It is all description of one order which include disorder state also.

Other major religions and their theologies have issues with Science. Hindu traditions based on Vedic teaching has no opposition to Science which is just knowledge.

There are (Pseudo) scientists or people with no real background in Science that preach science like religion. And There are (pseudo) Swamis who preach (and not teach) Vedic knowledge with ideas borrowed from other religious traditions (like concept of evil etc).

Let us not fall for false choices ...

 

[sravna]

This topic presents a false choice in my view..

True Science is knowledge. Vedanta which has nothing to do with Hindu tradition (though the Hindu tradition is based on Vedas & teaching of Vedanta) is knowledge. It is all description of one order which include disorder state also.

Other major religions and their theologies have issues with Science. Hindu traditions based on Vedic teaching has no opposition to Science which is just knowledge.

There are (Pseudo) scientists or people with no real background in Science that preach science like religion. And There are (pseudo) Swamis who preach (and not teach) Vedic knowledge with ideas borrowed from other religious traditions (like concept of evil etc).

Let us not fall for false choices ...

It is not a question of choice. One who is knowledgeable can see the truth easily. Many accord science a status that it doesn't deserve and ironically pull down ancient wisdom as pseudo.

I am per se not against scientific methods but only against the exaggerated sense of adequacy of such methods. To me it needs to revise its philosophy if it is not to come up against a dead end or run into contradictions.

 

[prasad1]

This topic presents a false choice in my view..

True Science is knowledge. Vedanta which has nothing to do with Hindu tradition (though the Hindu tradition is based on Vedas & teaching of Vedanta) is knowledge. It is all description of one order which include disorder state also.

Other major religions and their theologies have issues with Science. Hindu traditions based on Vedic teaching has no opposition to Science which is just knowledge.

There are (Pseudo) scientists or people with no real background in Science that preach science like religion. And There are (pseudo) Swamis who preach (and not teach) Vedic knowledge with ideas borrowed from other religious traditions (like concept of evil etc).

Let us not fall for false choices ...

Mr. TKS,
Wonderful post. I believe that nothing is outside "knowledge=God". Science is one aspect of the same knowledge. If someone knows the ocean, then they know Indian ocean as well. But if someone knows Indian Ocean it does not mean that they know Arctic ocean.

 

[sravna]

Yes indeed Prasad, just as everything is finally brahman, every knowledge is contained in the spiritual knowledge. But just as an egoistic person needs to be refined and shed his ignorance to become one with brahman, aspects of science needs to be refined to reveal its consistency with the spiritual knowledge.

 

[sravna]

Scientific work is accorded great status because people see them work. Now see the irony. A spiritual feat such as transcending of desires or emotions is rarely projected as a herculean accomplishment. IMO, one who does the latter can easily perform the former and not vice versa. The irony is spiritual feats are so rarely seen to work that any proclamation of its achievement is interpreted as a bogus claim.

 

[Somayaji.S]

is it now the time to question Science?

What sri.Sravana calls the "reductionism" was also called the Analytical approach as opposed to the "Wholistic (and then Holistic) approach" and the discussion is going on for the past 60 years or more and encompasses the entire spectrum of all Intellectual Activities.The "Time Honoured" example of 4 blind men trying to understand an Elephant has been repeated umpteen times..Prof.Isac Asimov (Born Russian--Professor of Bichemistry at Boston University (1919- 1992) was thick and thin in this discussion.He was the man who "Coined" the word "Robotics",which he thought was a "Science Fiction" which has now become a "Reality" today and threatens to supercede Human Intelligence.Some feel the Machine-(Analytical)-Human (Hoilistic) interface will continue for ever.This "Fear" is now extended to --what Professor Alex Comfort (British Gerotologist) called "Tampering the with the Genes(Biological) at Fundamental level" and his propheccy has come true in the threatened creation "Android" Monsters.Neither of the Two can be 'given up' nor one "promoted" in preference to the other.We have to just keep our fingers "crossed" and be "Mute witnesses.("Mooga Saakshi").What Humanity did with Nukes ?.

"Naaham Kartha"--Kaamah Karthaa--Naaham Ka Rahithaa"--Kaamah Ka Rahithaa".( I think Krishna Yajur Vedham or Atharvana Vedham)

Please read this article if Time permits.

[h=3][PDF] A brain in a vat cannot break out: why the singularity must be extended, embedded and embodied[/h]F Heylighen, CLA ECCO - 2012 - 134.184.131.111
... [Heylighen, 2007-2011; Heylighen, Heath & Van Overwalle, 2004]. In the remainder
of this paper, I will apply this holistic philosophy of mind, ... In this view, ... constraints
programmed into it (like Asimov's laws of robotics). Chalmers briefly ...

 

[prasad1]

Scientific work is accorded great status because people see them work. Now see the irony. A spiritual feat such as transcending of desires or emotions is rarely projected as a herculean accomplishment. IMO, one who does the latter can easily perform the former and not vice versa. The irony is spiritual feats are so rarely seen to work that any proclamation of its achievement is interpreted as a bogus claim.

Why does my spiritual accomplishment be appreciated by anyone other than me? There are spiritual masters in Himalayas who can care less, as to what we think of them. Other than attracting followers to boost one's ego a spiritual master should not care. I can understand some spiritual masters want to share their knowledge (may be genuine), but majority is not like that.

Swami Tapovan Maharaj could not understnad the mission of Swami Chinmayananda of spreading spiritual knowledge (according to Swami Chinmayananda).

 

[C RAVI]

Why does my spiritual accomplishment be appreciated by anyone other than me? There are spiritual masters in Himalayas who can care less, as to what we think of them. Other than attracting followers to boost one's ego a spiritual master should not care. I can understand some spiritual masters want to share their knowledge (may be genuine), but majority is not like that.

Swami Tapovan Maharaj could not understnad the mission of Swami Chinmayananda of spreading spiritual knowledge (according to Swami Chinmayananda).

Shri Prasad,

The concern is not just about wailing for spirituality not been given its due weight age and appreciated, out of Ego emerging out of Theists who all are into spiritual practices. The concern is not about others appreciating one's belief in God and spiritual practices.

The concern is all about highlighting the significance and potential of Spirituality that alone can keep humans as humans. And there is nothing wrong to voice this concern considering the over all betterment of Human species in a right direction.

Spiritual masters in Himalayas may be meditating a lot and praying the Supreme being/Supreme Conscious and seek their mercy upon Humans who all are surviving in the materialistic and challenging world of human survival. All the spiritual masters on Himalayas have care and concern about the Souls, making its survival in this Maya Loka. They are Self Less Souls and praying for the elimination of cruelty in Human survival among the humans OR at least minding their own spiritual practices away from this survival of Kama and Lobha.

Here, in this virtual world , at least we can voice our concern about upholding Spirituality in its true spirit, considering its potential significance. We are neither Yogis nor Drohies (in the sense of not intending harm to fellow humans), when we attempt to highlight the significance of spiritual energies . So, we can share our concern with fellow humans in our real as well as virtual world, out of our love and care towards the whole human society.

 

[sravna]

Why does my spiritual accomplishment be appreciated by anyone other than me? There are spiritual masters in Himalayas who can care less, as to what we think of them. Other than attracting followers to boost one's ego a spiritual master should not care. I can understand some spiritual masters want to share their knowledge (may be genuine), but majority is not like that.

Swami Tapovan Maharaj could not understnad the mission of Swami Chinmayananda of spreading spiritual knowledge (according to Swami Chinmayananda).

Prasad,

Spiritual masters do not and should not care about their own accomplishments. But the point is that the society should care. This is because society should be inclined towards what is right. It shouldn't get a wrong picture about spirituality and hence totally abandon it or worse still, degrade it.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

Good topic..in fact I had bought a book from Ramakrishna Ashram that covers the same topic.

When I get the time..I will read it and share it with you guys here.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Good topic..in fact I had bought a book from Ramakrishna Ashram that covers the same topic.

When I get the time..I will read it and share it with you guys here.

Yes Renuka, Thanks

 

[Raghy]

Scientific work is accorded great status because people see them work. Now see the irony. A spiritual feat such as transcending of desires or emotions is rarely projected as a herculean accomplishment. IMO, one who does the latter can easily perform the former and not vice versa. The irony is spiritual feats are so rarely seen to work that any proclamation of its achievement is interpreted as a bogus claim.

Sri. Sravna, Greetings.

Not all the scientific efforts work. Only such works that were found economically viable and worked safely had been released to the public. Companies invest large amounts of money in research and development only because not all of the developments work; sometimes it takes years to develop a product.

Transcending desires or emotions is not a spiritual feat. Transcending those desires is the desire of the person.. so, that person only indulged in his/her desire when transcended a particular desire. Why should that be accepted as a feat? All those persons who wanted to transcend a desire only because they had a desire to do it.

Spiritual feat, in my opinion is, a person lives with noble thoughts for others and care for others. Personally, I would salute that as a feat.

Cheers!