Jaya and Vijaya did their duty only.

[P.J.]

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According to a story from Bhagavata Purana, the Four Kumaras, Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanatkumara who are the manasaputras of Brahma (sons born from the mind or thought power of Brahma), visit Vaikuntha, the abode of Vishnu, to see him.
Due to the strength of their tapas, the four Kumaras appear to be mere children, though they are of great age. Jaya and Vijaya, the gate keepers of the Vaikuntha interrupt the Kumaras at the gate, thinking them to be children. They also tell the Kumaras that Sri Vishnu is resting and that they cannot see him now. The enraged Kumaras replied Jaya and Vijaya that Vishnu is available for his devotees any time, and cursed both the keepers Jaya and Vijaya, that they would have to give up their divinity, be born as mortals on Earth (bhuloka, or physical plane), and live like normal human beings. Vishnu appeared before them, and the gatekeepers requested Vishnu to lift the curse of the Kumaras. Vishnu says curse of Kumaras cannot be reverted. Instead, he gives Jaya and Vijaya two options. The first option is to take seven births on Earth as a devotee of Vishnu, while the second is to take three births as his enemy. After serving either of these sentences, they can re-attain their stature at Vaikuntha and be with him permanently. Jaya and Vijaya cannot bear the thought of staying away from Vishnu for seven lives. As a result, they choose to be born three times on Earth even though it would have to be as enemies of Vishnu. (This story is also used as a metaphor about the cost of committing transgressions in "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna".)
In the first life they were born as Hiranyakashipu and Hiranyaksha in the Krita Yuga, to Diti (daughter of Daksha Prajapathi) and sage Kashyapa.

Here one may argue that Jaya and Vijaya failed to recognize the Kumaras and thereby failed in their duty.
The Punishment meted out to them is too severe.

But the same logic and yardstick was not used when Lord Shiva cut off the head of Lord Ganapathy who was like Jaya and Vijaya only doing his duty of guarding the entrance on the orders of Ma Parvathi.

Lord Shiva , being Supreme, could very well recognized why Lord Ganapathy did not allow Him to enter.

 

[prasad1]

Dr. Devdutt Pattnaik has a better explanation here. He says that since Sanat Kumaras came into existence before the Prajapatis - lords of the 5 sense organs and 5 action organs, they are oblivious to the worldly desires. This has had them 'pure' - but their purity is not a sign of wisdom, it is the sign of ignorance. They are chaste by default, and not by design.


They have never engaged with the world. And so, even though they are pure, Vishnu does not meet them.

It is symbolic that you do not meet Vishnu without Knowledge.

 

[renuka]

But the same logic and yardstick was not used when Lord Shiva cut off the head of Lord Ganapathy who was like Jaya and Vijaya only doing his duty of guarding the entrance on the orders of Ma Parvathi.

Lord Shiva , being Supreme, could very well recognized why Lord Ganapathy did not allow Him to enter.

Dear Sir,

The story of Ganapathy can be seen at this angle.

The emphasis of the story was on Lord Ganapathy and not Lord Shiva.

Lord Ganapathy was taking orders from Goddess Parvati.
Parvati represents Prakirthi and its accompanying Maya Shakti.

Ganapathy represent Jeevaatma here and Lord Shiva represents Paramaatma here.

As long as the Jeeva is under the sway of Prakirti..he fails to recoginize Paramaatma(Ganapathy did not recognize Lord Shiva in this story).

Lord Shiva does not "recognize" Ganapathy becos the onus is on Jeevaatma to recognize Paramaatma and not the other way round but nevertheless the Lord helps Jeevaatma to realize Divinity by removing his worldly head of ignorance and replacing it with a head of of an elephant.(Elephant symbolizes Remover of Obstacles).
Once the obstacle of ignorance is removed Jeeva is no more under the sway of Prakirti/Maya and recognizes Paramaatma.

 

[prasad1]

Hindu parables are stories with inner meanings. If you start analyzing the stories with understanding the hidden meaning you have lost the significance.
Like Shankaracharya says

bhajagovindam bhajagovindamgovindam bhaja moodhamathesamprapte sannihite kaalenahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane

Seek or worship govinda, seek govinda, seek govinda, o fool or ignoramus. when the death comes at the appointed time, grammar rules will not save or rescue you.commentary:by repeating the words "bhaja govindam" thrice in the very first two lines of the first sloka itself, jagatguru sri adi sankaracharya is trying to bring home the point that human being has no other escape except immersing oneself in the thoughts of lord, and praying with utmost sincerity, reciting the divine namas of the lord rather than getting engrossed in anxieties to possess wealth or acquiresocial status or achievements. Here the rules of grammar mean all secular knowledge and earthly acquisitions or possessions. The one who runs after materialistic gains is moodhamathi. The purport of these words is that any amount of knowledge cannot save the soulwhen death knocks at the door of this limited body. at that time, one has to leave behind one's material benefits and social status. These acquisitions will not help one gain the knowledge of the soul, which is permanent, when the impermanent body withers, it turns out to be a dead-wood.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear All

This may a bit off the topic. But since the de-capitation of Ganapathi is mentioned, [ Sri Durgadasan had earlier posted about it and Sri Nannilam Balasubrahmanyam had mentioned it ], I would strongly suggest visiting Adhi Vinayakar Temple
- also known as " Nara Mukha Ganapathi " - at Thilitarpana Puri, Sri Muktheeswarar Temple.

The idol there is of Vinayakar, before the altercation with His Father that lead to his beheading and subsequent
attachment of the head of an elephant. He has a human face here, and looks absolutely handsome.

"Aanai Mugaththan and Paanai Vayaththan" ? Nah, he looks great here.

The place is about 3 km from Koothanoor - Sri Saraswathi Devi Temple [ Tiruvarur-Mayavaram Rd 14th km ]

I had taken some pictures - don't know where I put them, will try to find and upload
soon - " INSHA GANESHA "

Yay Yem

 

[renuka]

" insha ganesha "

yay yem

lol!

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Padmanabhan Janakiraman, Greetings.

From the OP -

Here one may argue that Jaya and Vijaya failed to recognize the Kumaras and thereby failed in their duty.
The Punishment meted out to them is too severe.

In my opinion, not really. Jaya and Vijaya fulfilled their duty to the satisfaction of their boss. ( the story I was told was different. The Sanath Kumaras did not curse Jaya & Vijaya for blocking the way. But they were cursed for making fun of them. The OP doesn't narrate the strory like that).

If Jaya & Vijaya were cursed just for blocking anty random persons, they should not have been cursed. They just performed their duties and Vishnu was obliged to safe guard them from any curses.

How ever, had they made fun of those 'children', they lacked common sense. They should have known regular children wouldn't have got that far and should have considered the whole thing fishy.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

According to a story from Bhagavata Purana, the Four Kumaras, Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanatkumara who are the manasaputras of Brahma (sons born from the mind or thought power of Brahma), visit Vaikuntha, the abode of Vishnu, to see him.
Due to the strength of their tapas, the four Kumaras appear to be mere children, though they are of great age. Jaya and Vijaya, the gate keepers of the Vaikuntha interrupt the Kumaras at the gate, thinking them to be children. They also tell the Kumaras that Sri Vishnu is resting and that they cannot see him now. The enraged Kumaras replied Jaya and Vijaya that Vishnu is available for his devotees any time, and cursed both the keepers Jaya and Vijaya, that they would have to give up their divinity, be born as mortals on Earth (bhuloka, or physical plane), and live like normal human beings. Vishnu appeared before them, and the gatekeepers requested Vishnu to lift the curse of the Kumaras. Vishnu says curse of Kumaras cannot be reverted. Instead, he gives Jaya and Vijaya two options. The first option is to take seven births on Earth as a devotee of Vishnu, while the second is to take three births as his enemy. After serving either of these sentences, they can re-attain their stature at Vaikuntha and be with him permanently. Jaya and Vijaya cannot bear the thought of staying away from Vishnu for seven lives. As a result, they choose to be born three times on Earth even though it would have to be as enemies of Vishnu. (This story is also used as a metaphor about the cost of committing transgressions in "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna".)
In the first life they were born as Hiranyakashipu and Hiranyaksha in the Krita Yuga, to Diti (daughter of Daksha Prajapathi) and sage Kashyapa.

Here one may argue that Jaya and Vijaya failed to recognize the Kumaras and thereby failed in their duty.
The Punishment meted out to them is too severe.

But the same logic and yardstick was not used when Lord Shiva cut off the head of Lord Ganapathy who was like Jaya and Vijaya only doing his duty of guarding the entrance on the orders of Ma Parvathi.

Lord Shiva , being Supreme, could very well recognized why Lord Ganapathy did not allow Him to enter.

According to me this idea of 4 baby-faced sages is purely the product of the poetic imagination of someone who wrote, whichever is the first among the Sreemad Bhaagavatam, or Devee Bhaagavatam, the vaamanapuraanam, Mahaabhaaratam, etc., in all of which texts, one or all of this quartet appears. According to the Deveebhaagavatam (skandhas I & VII) Brahma attests that Vishnu himself appeared (or was born as) these four and restored to him (Brahma) all the philosophical knowledge (aatmatatvam) which had been lost due to efflux of time.

While the story in the OP refers to Sanaka getting angry and cursing the Jaya-Vijaya duo, it is sanatkumaaran a.k.a sanatsujaatan who gets more coverage in the Mahabharata, imo. Udyoga Parva, Adhyaayas 41-46 are in fact known as "sanatsujaata Parva". According to Vaamanapuraana, sanaka was the son of Dharmadeva (Yama) in his wife Ahimsaa and he became Brahma's son as time passed vide Adhyaya 60 of the Vaamanapuraana.

Viewed in the light of all these stories, it will not be difficult to see that these are mere poetic characters who have been made use of in the different texts according to the skill and capacity of the respective authors. In that sense these four can be called similar to the Sanskrit indeclinables (conjunctions ?) ca, vai, tu, hi.

So, imho, any discussion about whether Jaya-Vijaya were right or wrong, how liberated souls like sanaka could get angry at the flimsiest pretext, etc., will only reveal our foolishness.

 

[P.J.]

Dear Raghy Sir,
Wish you and your family a very Happy Deepavali.
The punishment given to Jaya and Vijaya seems to be extraordinary and not in proportion to their crime.
This is my humble opinion.
Probably Lord Narayana wanted that way so that he can take different Avatars to Teach the world.

Regards

Padmanabhan.J

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

sangom ji
i take a different view, since there are many many yugas and pralayas went , the seer wrote vamana purana might have recorded a different yugas cycle and the seer who saw the bhagavata purana / Mahabharata at different yugas cycle .

though history repeats it need not to be very precise.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Padmanabhanji,
Why do we have to be so literal, reading our stories. History should be verifiable by various methods, and even then it is biased depending on the writer. Akbarnama the so called Historic journal is written purely to praise Akbar, and is not History.
Oliver stone produces movies based on real events, but it is his version, it is not History.

The stories are symbolic and we need to understand the meaning behind it.

 

[sangom]

sangom ji
i take a different view, since there are many many yugas and pralayas went , the seer wrote vamana purana might have recorded a different yugas cycle and the seer who saw the bhagavata purana / Mahabharata at different yugas cycle .

though history repeats it need not to be very precise.

Shri HRHK,

We seem to hold different, if not contrarian views on many topics. Therefore, there is no point in our trying to argue and attempt to convert each other to one's own pov.

Even so, my confirmed belief is that there have been no Pralayas or Yugas; these are mere devices to measure time because it was mandatory that for any text to be considered as a Puraana, it should talk authoritatively about creation and what happened since then (called "sarga" - one of the lakshanas for a puraana). If you compare the data given by the different puraanas in this regard, you will know how unreliable those are.

We have only the present creation - if you so feel like that - though, imo, this universe itself is no more than illusory from a different plane of view. Just as a lengthy cinema dealing with hundreds of years of history can be locked up in a small film-can but that can be presented as a gripping cinema with some appropriate machinery and by rolling the film (or just by using a DVD and a digital projector), we are made to see this universe as moving forward in time; but everything is static and the real essence of this universe remains unchanged, un affected by TIME.

These are concepts difficult to accept, visualize and to agree to, but that was the aim of all our philosophies.

 

[Govinda]

Mr. Padmanabhanji,
Akbarnama the so called Historic journal is written purely to praise Akbar, and is not History.

The stories are symbolic and we need to understand the meaning behind it.

Sir,

All those puranas, do not glorify Avatars for poetic pleasure or for symbolism. Those
texts were available not upon request or for monetary benefit. Those are revelations
to the Rishis, who were realized, and are highly divine.

Though science describes planets, cosmic objects as gross objects existing independently,
Our puranas and srutis have described them as clearly and well, but the gods/persons associated
with every substance and attributes are Regents, and can be en-visioned only
by those sages.

 

[Govinda]

Hindu parables are stories with inner meanings. If you start analyzing the stories with understanding the hidden meaning you have lost the significance.
Like Shankaracharya says

bhajagovindam bhajagovindamgovindam bhaja moodhamathesamprapte sannihite kaalenahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane

That was a nice example of symbolism/metaphor or whatever you call. But, my sincere question, Govinda was a later Avatar of Vishnu, why is Sankara eulogising Brahman in an Avatar form, which
is born and will die??

 

[Govinda]

sangom ji
i take a different view, since there are many many yugas and pralayas went , the seer wrote vamana purana might have recorded a different yugas cycle and the seer who saw the bhagavata purana / Mahabharata at different yugas cycle .

though history repeats it need not to be very precise.

Kalpa is a higher unit of time, may be measures of 4 billion years (human). Within a kalpa, there are 14 manvantaras which has 71 yuga each. Thus, the latter ones are smaller units, there may be slips in the thousand years (which must be o.k). When the scientists dated the earth, there were earlier calculations from 6000 years biblical to 1 million (Thomson) , then 13million(Darwin) to 1billion(Earnest) to 4 billion (Holmes) [Why did Holmes think 1 billion was less ?? Was Indian text his reference?]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth

Professor Arthur Holmes(1895-1965) geologist, professor at the University of Durham. He writes regarding the age of the earth in his great book, The Age of Earth (1913) as follows:
"Long before it became a scientific aspiration to estimate the age of the earth, many elaborate systems of the world chronology had been devised by the sages of antiquity. The most remarkable of these occult time-scales is that of the ancient Hindus, whose astonishing concept of the Earth's duration has been traced back to Manusmriti, a sacred book."

Hindu Wisdom - Hindu Cosmology

Metrics is important for any calculation, so does for time and space. Though we can't know the expanse of the creation (universe- space/time), it still has some value and must be continuous, like our apaurusheyic Atma and karma. We can't be bogged down by the precision, we atleast need to quantify things to understand, comprehend and distinguish.

We buy groceries from stores, how are we sure the measures (by the storekeeper or packaged stuff) is precise, it is just for a good reference. So, we cannot conclude Metrics dont exist nor disown them for idealism (precision)!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy Sir,
Wish you and your family a very Happy Deepavali.
The punishment given to Jaya and Vijaya seems to be extraordinary and not in proportion to their crime.
This is my humble opinion.
Probably Lord Narayana wanted that way so that he can take different Avatars to Teach the world.

Regards

Padmanabhan.J

Sri. Padmanabhan, Greetings.

Thank you for your wishes. We had a lovely evening with our children. I hope, you had a very nice day with your children and friends too.

Personally I don't like to comment about 'punishments' and its 'severity'. We don't know for sure.

For all one knows, Jaya and Vijaya took that opportunity to have nice holidays in 'bhulokam' in the name of 'curse' and punishments. We don't know.

Punishments are subjective. Punishment to someone's point of view would be a pleasure in someone else's point of view.

Cheers!

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Dr Renu

I did manage to find the pictures that I'd taken of Aadhi Vinayakar :

I hope you are able to view it :


Yay Yem

 

[Anand Manohar]

 

[Anand Manohar]

Sorry, Dr Renu

Three other pictures - close-up shots just not getting uploaded !

Yay Yem

 

[P.J.]

Anand Sir,
Thanks for posting this picture.

 

[mskmoorthy]

Inspired by http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-vijaya-did-their-duty-only-2.html#post165458

here is a SUNTV broadcast of Aadhi Vinayagar Temple

ADHI VINAYAGAR TEMPLE 29 10 12 - YouTube

One more fact about Koothanaur:

ottakkoothar (a contemporary of kambar) wrote Saraswathi andhaathi

According to legend,
Goddess Saraswati blessed him in the place koothanur, then he became a
famous poet. - (koothanur is the same place where Adhi Vinayagar idol
is there.)

Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottakoothar

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

Shri HRHK,

We seem to hold different, if not contrarian views on many topics. Therefore, there is no point in our trying to argue and attempt to convert each other to one's own pov.

Even so, my confirmed belief is that there have been no Pralayas or Yugas; these are mere devices to measure time because it was mandatory that for any text to be considered as a Puraana, it should talk authoritatively about creation and what happened since then (called "sarga" - one of the lakshanas for a puraana). If you compare the data given by the different puraanas in this regard, you will know how unreliable those are.

We have only the present creation - if you so feel like that - though, imo, this universe itself is no more than illusory from a different plane of view. Just as a lengthy cinema dealing with hundreds of years of history can be locked up in a small film-can but that can be presented as a gripping cinema with some appropriate machinery and by rolling the film (or just by using a DVD and a digital projector), we are made to see this universe as moving forward in time; but everything is static and the real essence of this universe remains unchanged, un affected by TIME.

These are concepts difficult to accept, visualize and to agree to, but that was the aim of all our philosophies.

sangom ji!

Im not here to change others POV. Im here to post my POV only.

Since you said Puranas should not be taken as factual statements but only as poetic statements and cited the difference between 2 puranas. I've to post my POV.

Please be assured , you can hold your POV like no pralaya, no yuga cycle, no brahma , no ishvara etc.. I wont be disturbed.

Thanks