Karadaiyan Nombu (Masi Panguni Nombu)

[sarmasp]

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This year's Karadaiyan Nombu falls on the night of 14th/15th March. The auspicious time for performing Nombu is stated to be 3.45 a.m. on Tuesday, the 15th March. As the time is quite inconvenient for many to perform the function at such early hours, please let me know whether the same can be performed on the evening of Monday, the 14th March. Or else, will it be alright if the function is performed on Tuesday, the 15th any time after 3.45 a.m.

 

[CLN]

When the exact sankramanam time happens to be at such an unearthly hour like it is this year, the general practice is, I am told, some convenient time as close as is possible, before, but not later. So it appears that we can choose a time on 14th night, as late as is convenient.

 

[kgopalan]

On 14-3-2011 night at 9 to 10 -30 pm gowri panchangam uddiyogam is good. and Guru hora from 10 to 11 pm, So it is good to do Kaaradayan nonbu from 10 to 10-30 pm . in the month of Maasi. or 7pm to 7-30 pm on 14-3-2011 is also good; hora and gowri panchangam is good.

 

[ambes]

Karadaiyan nombu or Savitri nombu vritham,is a Tamil observance in which married woman prays for the well being & long life of her husband.As per my sastrigal Karadiyan Nombu 2011 is March 15 & time of breaking fast & to wear the Saradu is from 8am to 9 am. It is observed on the particular day when the transition between Tamil months Maasi & Panguni takes place.

Karadai is the name of a unique Nivedyam prepared on this Day. Nombu means Vratham or upavasam (Fast)

Karadayan Nombu is observed in rememberance of Satyvan-Savithri Legend. A princess,Savitri through her un paralled devotion saved her husband,Satyvan,from the clutches of death. This legend is very popular in India & there are several other observances based on this legend like Vat Savitri Puja.

Savithri Nombu vritham is observed at the exact time when Masi month ends & Panguni begins.

On the Virtham Day married woman fast & break the fast by eating the Karadai preparation with Butter. The preparation is known as Karadai Nombu Adai. It is believed Savithri cooked such a dish & offered it to Lord Yama along with unmelted Butter as a sort of Thanksgiving for sparing her Husbands Life.
Another Important ritual is the wearing of the Kaaradi Nombu saradu,which is a yellow thread, around the neck.

 

[kunjuppu]

if one goes through the archives, one can find another extensive and detailed thread re karadiyan nonbu

just out of curiosity, and no offence meant, do we have equivalent nonbus for men? my mother was non practising to most rituals, and hence barring shraddham, i am not familiar with these functions. pray someone enlighten me.

 

[CLN]

Dear Shri kunjuppu ji,

In the same vein, I am able to recall several puranic instances where the pathivratas did all sorts of things, like Parvathi doing rigorous penance to marry Siva, Nalayini even taking her husband to Daasi's house, Savitri wrenching back her husband's life back from Yama, using her cleverness and so on, to be united / reunited with their pathis. But, barring Rama's efforts to claim back Sita from Raavana, which, unfortunately did not even last long afterwards, as he had to banish a pregnant Sita away, I am not able to recall any instance where the pathi tried to retrieve the pathni, necessitating a vratam to complement Karadayan Nonbu. I would be glad and feel enlightened if some knowledgeable person(s) amongst our members could come up with a suitable case and prove me wrong.

 

[sangom]

When the exact sankramanam time happens to be at such an unearthly hour like it is this year, the general practice is, I am told, some convenient time as close as is possible, before, but not later. So it appears that we can choose a time on 14th night, as late as is convenient.

True to the Indian genius — too clever by half ! — the "nonpu" is observed not when the sun enters the Meena Rasi, but at the time when sun would have entered Meena rasi some 1750 years ago!! This year the sun entered meena rasi on February 19 itself !!

 

[CLN]

Dear Shri Sangom ji,

I guess you are giving that date (i.e., Feb 19/20) on the basis of the Saka Era system, adopted as the official calendar by Govt. India. But, we find, by and large, the panchangas in our country follow only solar/lunar calendars. Can you enlighten more on this?

 

[ambes]

HOW TO PREPARE SWEET KARADAI DISH

There are 2 types Karadai preparation sweet & savory.

INGREDIENTS

* 2 CUPS RICE FLOUR
*1/4 CUP TUVAR DAL or KARAMANI
*GRATED JAGGERY 1 CUP or same amount of solid jaggery
(use less jaggery if u want less sweet)
*1/4 cup grated coconut
*1/2 tsp cardamon powder

PREPARATION METHOD

*Roast the rice flour till off white or light brown
the consistency should be like the rice powder used for kolams.
Keep aside after roasting
* Slightly roast the karamani or tuvar Dhal and then pressure cook till soft & drain excess water.
*Boil water. The ideal ratio water to rice flour is 2:1
* Add the rice flour slowly to prepare a dough.Stir well to avoid lumps. Cook till the dough achieves a thick consistency.
*Add jaggery to the dough and stir continously until both blends together.
*Add cardamon poeder ,cooked Karamani or Thur Dhal & coconut gratings or small slit coconuts & stir well to blend.
*Cook the dough on small or medium flame. Keep stirring until the dough thickens.
*Allow the dough to cool
*Make a lemon sized ball from the cooked batter 7 spread or pat into small circular discs around 3" dia & 1/4 inch thick.
The batter can be spread on hand or banana leaf or butter paper.
*Make a hole in the centre of the non-cooked Batter disc (kara adai) or patties just as in a donut. Make as many as possible with the available batter. & keep ready for cooking.
*Steam the patties in an idly cooker or pressure cooker with steam trays. Cook for 10 minutes.In case of pressure cooker,cook without putting the weight.
Serve hot with butter after Puja.

Tips

If batter is watery or sticky,stir in low flame for some more time and cool.
Heat jaggery and make it into liquid and strain it before using since it may contain sand or other impurities.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dear Shri Sangom ji,

I guess you are giving that date (i.e., Feb 19/20) on the basis of the Saka Era system, adopted as the official calendar by Govt. India. But, we find, by and large, the panchangas in our country follow only solar/lunar calendars. Can you enlighten more on this?

The official calender has a history behind it.

A committee was appointed by the Government of India with experts in the field drawn from various parts of the country who were involved with preparation of Panchanga in local languages to draw up a reliable Panchanga in which the mathematical calculations provides the positions of grahas (the planets) and nakshatras (constellations) in the sky as they are observed.

Thus, the Government of India has prepared the National Panchanga or the Indian national calendar in 1957 (was proposed by Saha and Lahiri in 1952), which is used in predictive astrology. The Lahiris Ephemeris published annually is the most widely used English almanac in Vedic astrology apart from the many Panchangas published in local languages, which are mostly based on the National Panchanga.

Panchangam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have heard there was a lot of criticism from the so called secular Indians for this effort. But Babu Rajendra Prasad, the first President of India was firm about this.

Lahiri's Ayanamsa is used by Astrologers all over India.

Late Mr.N.C.Lahiri was a well known astrologer and Panchang-author. He was a participant in the conference astrologers and Panchang-authors held by the Paramacharya in 1966 at Kalahasthi.

 

[CLN]

Thank you Shri Nacchinarkiniyan ji, for that interesting information! But what I still do not make out is how such a variation by as much as about 3 weeks happens in timing the same event by two different calculations. The popular panchangas in Tamilnadu say that The Maasi-Panguni sankramanam is only March 14/15th night, by virtue of the current year calculations while Shri Sangom says that we should take what was the situation 1750 years ago, and accordingly it was over on Feb 19th itself. First, why 1750 years ago? Even so, if it is the precession of the earth's axis which is to be taken into account, the precession is not that fast to account for a difference of three weeks in less than a mere two thousand years. It was only several thousand years ago the North Pole Star (by which one means the star towards which the North pole of the earth's axis points in the sky) was not the present Dhruva Nakshathram, but what is called star Vega now, which is still not very far off from Dhruva.

 

[sangom]

Thank you Shri Nacchinarkiniyan ji, for that interesting information! But what I still do not make out is how such a variation by as much as about 3 weeks happens in timing the same event by two different calculations. The popular panchangas in Tamilnadu say that The Maasi-Panguni sankramanam is only March 14/15th night, by virtue of the current year calculations while Shri Sangom says that we should take what was the situation 1750 years ago, and accordingly it was over on Feb 19th itself. First, why 1750 years ago? Even so, if it is the precession of the earth's axis which is to be taken into account, the precession is not that fast to account for a difference of three weeks in less than a mere two thousand years. It was only several thousand years ago the North Pole Star (by which one means the star towards which the North pole of the earth's axis points in the sky) was not the present Dhruva Nakshathram, but what is called star Vega now, which is still not very far off from Dhruva.

Shri CLN,

In astrology, for predictions, the horoscope is cast taking the position of planets as they would have been if the birth had taken place at the same place, date (sun's position) and time. This is technically called the "nirayana" position. Most people like Kanndigas, Telugus and others have started following the "current" position or "saayana" position for observing their rituals and celebrations but the Tabras (and may be all Tamils also) still adhere to the nirayana system. According to astronomy the point in the sky, w.r.t. the fixed stars, at which the sun goes starts moving towards north of the celestial equator (which is known as the first point of mesham or ariea) goes backwards and completes one full circle (360 degrees) in about 26,000 years. We arbitrarily have assumed the Lahiri ayanamsa which is about 24 degrees now. Hence the calculation that we are stuck in time about 1750 years in the past! This also explains how the sun has actually entered meena rasi 24 days or so ago but we take it as happening only today.

Hope my explanation is clear.

 

[CLN]

Thank you Shri Sangom ji for the clarification.

Your explanation has triggered two doubts in my mind. One, if the 'nirayana' system and 'saayana' system give rise to such a significant time gap of about three weeks in the calculations, then the positions of navagrahas, particularly the ones having only short stays in each Raasi like, Budha, Sukra and Ankaaraka, are bound to be so different that even the Raasi as per one system may not tally with the Raasi as per the other. In the case of Chandragraha, it would be quite very different, as it stays in each Raasi only for a little more than two days! Naturally, the birth charts of an individual, according to the two different systems would be very different from each other, and hence the astrological predictions based on the two different charts would also be very different. So, is it not possible to take the cases of a few aged individuals as samples, cast separate birth charts for them using the two different systems and make predictions also out of both charts about past events in their lives? This way it should be possible to verify which one of the systems is more dependable, astrologically.

Two, as the planetary positions and movements are tracked and recorded astronomically to a high degree of accuracy, using sophisticated instruments nowadays, can't we compare the astronomically observed data with the astrologically calculated data using both 'nirayana' system and 'saayana' system to find which one of the two systems is more 'truthful''?

 

[sangom]

Thank you Shri Sangom ji for the clarification.

Your explanation has triggered two doubts in my mind. One, if the 'nirayana' system and 'saayana' system give rise to such a significant time gap of about three weeks in the calculations, then the positions of navagrahas, particularly the ones having only short stays in each Raasi like, Budha, Sukra and Ankaaraka, are bound to be so different that even the Raasi as per one system may not tally with the Raasi as per the other. In the case of Chandragraha, it would be quite very different, as it stays in each Raasi only for a little more than two days! Naturally, the birth charts of an individual, according to the two different systems would be very different from each other, and hence the astrological predictions based on the two different charts would also be very different. So, is it not possible to take the cases of a few aged individuals as samples, cast separate birth charts for them using the two different systems and make predictions also out of both charts about past events in their lives? This way it should be possible to verify which one of the systems is more dependable, astrologically.

Two, as the planetary positions and movements are tracked and recorded astronomically to a high degree of accuracy, using sophisticated instruments nowadays, can't we compare the astronomically observed data with the astrologically calculated data using both 'nirayana' system and 'saayana' system to find which one of the two systems is more 'truthful''?

1. The reason why our native astrologers depend on the nirayana system is (this I have not seen stated explicitly anywhere) that our venerable rishis and seers did not know about the "precession of the equinoxes" and gave their dicta about results during a small period of 400 or 500 years, astronomically, not significant AFA the change in the first point of aries (around 4 or 5 degrees of arc) and our present day astrologers hold that those rules of prediction will apply only if the present day charts are reconstructed to those eras. Which is the reference date to be taken is, as is usual with Indian geniuses, a matter of opinion and prestige issue. There were many different values (base years) at one time, but after the almanac unification referred to by Shri Nachinarkiniyan, the GOI plumped for Lahiri's value. But even today there are about 5 or 6 values followed by different "shools" — B.V. Raman, Krishnamoorthy, Fagan,Devadatta, Ushasastri, etc. So much for "scientific" approach.

The rules for prediction are different for the two approaches - saayana and nirayana; for saayana we already have the western system. Of course the planets may be in different rasis as you correctly guessed.

2.Today almost all almanacs (native pancaangams) are based on published astronomical data only. But when you deduct a constant value to each you will get the nirayana position. Some "vaakya pancaangam-wallas" may still be following the laborious and erroneous calculations based on some "sutra" given by some ancient sage, but I don't know which are based on such calculations.

 

[CLN]

I thank you Shri Sangom ji for the clarification, but my main doubt still remains, which I repeat: Is it not possible to take the cases of a few aged individuals as samples, cast separate birth charts for them using the two different systems and make predictions also out of both charts about past events in their lives? This way it should be possible to verify which one of the systems is more dependable, astrologically.

It is not that I am asking you to do it, or some thing like that. Has anybody ever attempted it? If so, with what result? If not, why not?

 

[sangom]

I thank you Shri Sangom ji for the clarification, but my main doubt still remains, which I repeat: Is it not possible to take the cases of a few aged individuals as samples, cast separate birth charts for them using the two different systems and make predictions also out of both charts about past events in their lives? This way it should be possible to verify which one of the systems is more dependable, astrologically.

It is not that I am asking you to do it, or some thing like that. Has anybody ever attempted it? If so, with what result? If not, why not?

Obviously our astrologers will not take the lead, nor will the western astrologers who follow the saayana system. And suppose some one does as you say, who will be prepared to bury the one that is proved to be less accurate?

 

[CLN]

Well, that is a point, Shri Sangom ji!

It looks to me that it is now left only to inquisive, or, rather nosy trouble-mongers (like me! ) to attempt such an experiment. But there are at least three difficulties here - (1) identifying genuine astrologers from each system, (2) finding out a reasonable number of volunteers (to act as guinea pigs) from different walks of life and (3) inform and persuade the chosen astrologers to be willing to be involved in such an experiment, as carrying it out, keeping them uninformed will be unethical.

 

[sangom]

Well, that is a point, Shri Sangom ji!

It looks to me that it is now left only to inquisive, or, rather nosy trouble-mongers (like me! ) to attempt such an experiment. But there are at least three difficulties here - (1) identifying genuine astrologers from each system, (2) finding out a reasonable number of volunteers (to act as guinea pigs) from different walks of life and (3) inform and persuade the chosen astrologers to be willing to be involved in such an experiment, as carrying it out, keeping them uninformed will be unethical.

Dear Shri CLN,

Earlier - some months back - there was an attempt to perform a similar test to find out how consistent our own astrologers are but it miserably failed because no one came forward to participate! Anyway I wish you all success in your endeavour.

 

[kunjuppu]

Well, that is a point, Shri Sangom ji!

It looks to me that it is now left only to inquisive, or, rather nosy trouble-mongers (like me! ) to attempt such an experiment. But there are at least three difficulties here - (1) identifying genuine astrologers from each system, (2) finding out a reasonable number of volunteers (to act as guinea pigs) from different walks of life and (3) inform and persuade the chosen astrologers to be willing to be involved in such an experiment, as carrying it out, keeping them uninformed will be unethical.

best wishes in this reagard CLN