Lamentation of an orthodox tabra from abroad

[sangom]

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Dear brothers and sisters,

This below mail from Shriman *** could not have come in at an
appropriate time. I am presently in the US on business and it was
nagging me about the prayaschittas for samudrayana since this is my
first trip abroad. But mleccha samparka, samudrayana, and others
apart, life is not easy here. This is applicable for people that
follow acharanushtanas to a very small extent. To begin with (pardon
me for being blatant, but I cannot help but quote this), wherever you
go here, you do not have the facility to clean yourself the Indian
way. I am sure nobody will disagree when I say that you are not clean
unless you clean the Indian way. Following this, you cannot wash your
feet since the bathrooms have no place for the water to drain other
than the sinks or the shower tubs. This is absolutely difficult and
worse when you are on the plane and you have space of about a square
feet to stand around. I do not overexagerrate when I say how much
ever vegetarianism is on the rise in the west, it is still difficult
to get veg food. Even if you get them, I am sure they are cooked in
the same vessels as nonveg food is cooked. So you still end up having
probably a wee bit of meat or anything into you. Almost everything
has a bit of egg and/or gelatin in them which are animal derivatives.
But one thing that I completely fail to understand is when things in
this part of the world are so difficult for people in the first two
ashramas, I really do not know why Sanyasins with their rigorous
commitments to their ashrama dharma want to come over here.

I conclude saying that even if you want to follow dharma to even a
small extent, the place for you is India, how much ever adharma might
prevail there.

Quoted above is the lament of an orthodox tabra who finds his life abroad very miserable. This is copy & paste from another forum. i have the url but will furnish it some time later so as to keep anonymity.

I request comments from all members - BBs and anti-BBs.

 

[amala]

In a way I do feel for that gentleman. I really do. It cannot be easy for him at all. he grew up in a certain way and its very easy to say he is not flexible, not adaptive etc but some people just aren't especially, if they are not young.

 

[subbudu1]

Mlechha Samparka that is the irony , yet many smartha TB claim to be still brahmins after so many days of staying abroad. Our swamijis I dont know. They come in different shades and colors. Some might still not eat any outside food, and some may have no qualms in eating what is given to them . If we take a headcount of the brahmins without mlecha samparka there is no brahmin at all. Induction effect if you can understand. I will still get the electric shock if I hold on to someone who holds on to some one else who carried the electric current.

Sangom, I dont think TBs here have any answer to this.

I think the best solution that the orthodox TBs who have want to uphold the smritis is for them to call themselves as mlechhas for the long samparka and see what is the best way smritis can be upheld as people fallen from caste.

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

i think this is a tongue in cheek note. not really serious. otherwise, he would have wondered about the ultimate impurity of all - avoidance of water to perform one's ablutions

 

[sangom]

sangom,

i think this is a tongue in cheek note. not really serious. otherwise, he would have wondered about the ultimate impurity of all - avoidance of water to perform one's ablutions

Kunjuppu,
Did you mean to type - he would not have wondered about the ultimate impurity of all - avoidance of water to perform one's ablutions ?

 

[kunjuppu]

Kunjuppu,
Did you mean to type - he would not have wondered about the ultimate impurity of all - avoidance of water to perform one's ablutions ?

hahaha!!!

 

[Raji Ram]

I am a bit surprised at the lament of that gentleman! It IS possible to clean yourself in the Indian way. No one objects

the use of mugs for wet cleaning in the toilets. This is the third time we are visiting the US and we have never had

the problem of ONLY dry cleaning, except when we happen to use the public toilets while travelling. I have seen in a

few Indian houses, the hand shower connection too! Washing the legs is not a big deal at all. All the bathrooms

have the wash basin inside. Just fill up a mug with water (hot preferable!) and wash the legs in the bath area / tub.

It is as easy as that! We wash our legs with hot water after the daily walk, here.


My mother-in-law was a very orthodox lady and spent about six months at her daughter's house in West Virginia,

wearing her usual madisAr dress and had her 'madi' saree every day. Since the time she visited was summer, she

could wash and dry up her dress in the basement where a few cloth lines were provided. My brother-in-law who

visited us in Boston, on Gayathri japam day, this year, machine washed and dried his veshti and angavasthram in

the morning, to wear for the pooja. One of my nephews performs sandhya vandhanam twice a day even when he

stays here with Ms. June of New York city about whom I have mentioned a few times in my write ups.

So, if there is a will, there IS A WAY! eace:

 

[Nara]

...i think this is a tongue in cheek note. not really serious. otherwise, he would have wondered about the ultimate impurity of all - avoidance of water to perform one's ablutions

K, this is a serious matter, the Ahnika Grantham written by a SV -- one that elaborates the daily anushtanams -- delves deep into the procedure of abulation, and interestingly it does not involve water, it involves sand. The rules specify what kind of sand, how many times, etc.

I don't think it was a t-in-c note, it rings quite true, from one who is ஆத்துல ஒரு கால் சேத்துல ஒரு கால் type. The temple priests here in U.S. have no problem with any of these.

best ...

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Sangom and others.

Seems that 'Shriman ***' was given some practical advice in the URL you have not-mentioned.

So, I hope Sangom would furnish the URL, so our members here can have a look at both sides of what seems to be an old issue, before seeking to thrash Tabras here in every which way they can.

 

[Yamaka]

When I was doing my PhD in Madurai-Kamaraj University there was an orthodox Brahmin as Prof and Head of Mathematics (I forgot his name).

He always dressed in his Brahmin attire...and I believed he truly lived as a "True Brahmin".. according to him,

"We just can't cross the high Seas either by ship or by air, as per our Scriptures; therefore, a True B or TB can't go to foreign countries for higher studies or job or touring"

If you do, then you are not a Brahmin, you become something else!".

He remained in India, although he had plenty of opportunities to go to London, New York, Tokyo and other places for various Professional Meetings..

He was a very well respected person in his area of expertise and specialization.

More later....

 

[tbs]

hi all
this is purely BAKWAS.....USELESS FELLOW.....NOBODY IS PERFECT EVEN IN INDIA.....MANY ******* EAT MEAT /DRINK ALCOHOL

FREELY IN INDIA TOO......its purenly a negative approach.....i know many tambra army fellows do everything in india than abroad....

HE IS NUMBER ONE STUPID...IF THERE IS A WILL...THERE IS A WAY.....

regards
tbs

 

[prasad1]

hi all
this is purely BAKWAS.....USELESS FELLOW.....NOBODY IS PERFECT EVEN IN INDIA.....MANY ******* EAT MEAT /DRINK ALCOHOL

FREELY IN INDIA TOO......its purenly a negative approach.....i know many tambra army fellows do everything in india than abroad....

HE IS NUMBER ONE STUPID...IF THERE IS A WILL...THERE IS A WAY.....

regards
tbs

Strong words, I also think the original post was a tongue in cheek to bring in strong sentiment. It looks like you took the bait. You always have to know your audience, Sagar me rehnahi, to magarmach se que bair.

I am surprised that people are able to survive in their own 'created' world. I live in a world of compromise. Everyday we at least make 10 compromise knowingly or unknowingly. If you want certain freedom either you should be able to buy or compromise for the next best thing. Complaining in forums or to a person of no consequence may get you some lip service. If you want to complain, do so to right authority (who ever that might be). I like Raji's solution for the problem of the poster.

Someone said "misery loves company" it is true, but then the company makes fun of you in public forum, because they are Honest.

 

[kkumar29]

I don't generally post on these kind of topics. However what Mr. Sangom has quoted actually evoked some reaction in me to post.

The gentleman has expressed his difficulties in traveling abroad and explained how it is difficult for him to perform his daily anushtanams and has concluded that for him the best place to stay is in India. Fair enough and I respect that. Then he adds an extra line commenting on how others can choose to live overseas. This is what got me going. The implied superiority of his ways and how others have somehow become inferior to him. It is this kind of innuendo that attracts the reformist movements like that of EVR to raise their propaganda. I had menioned about innuendo in one of my posts in the other thread. I am not sure whether it was intentional or he did not even realize that his post exhibits that feeling of superiority. I think this is what Nara, Sangom and Happyhindu are at pains to point out to various people.

I just hope TBs look at such behavior objectively and not repeat this kind of behavior in public. Then in due course all this supposed animosity from NBs will vanish and I think you will really start seeing a true brahmin in our daily lives.

K. Kumar

 

[kunjuppu]

I don't generally post on these kind of topics.


K. Kumar

why?

kumar, variety is after all the spice of life. 'like' us more often, 'like to post' more often. glad sangom is an incentive for you

 

[kkumar29]

Hi Kunjuppu,

I don't post because my opinions are not going to change anyone's behavior or belief. I am still learning and I feel I am not qualified enough to make comments on the topics that get discussed here. I just made this post because I thought this was a good example of the implied superiority exhibited by TBs either knowingly or unknowingly.

Now I will retreat back into my shell.

K. Kumar

 

[mskmoorthy]

Technology to the rescue

The kind of toilet googlers at work use is manufactured by TOTO with jet
water cleaner for the rear and the front and dry air. Please read this
article. This may solve some of the troubles one faces

Read this Toilets in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof. MSK Sir, Thanks for the link!! Regards, Raji Ram :ranger:

 

[sarang]

I have seen indian type squatting toilets in Italy too in 90s.

A better way will be is to use modern science to reuse internally so that the whole process is more green, less dependence on natural resources and eco friendly!!!

The kind of toilet googlers at work use is manufactured by TOTO with jet
water cleaner for the rear and the front and dry air. Please read this
article. This may solve some of the troubles one faces

Read this Toilets in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tbs]

hi
there is always a plastic cups available in flights......we can use paper cups any where in usa....its freely available and recyclable....

even in roadside rest rooms in usa are best in the world.....these are small excuses....merely a bull shit.....i never used toilet sheets

in last ten years anywhere in usa.....according to american language...he is really an asshole.....

regards
tbs

 

[sarang]

I believe the quoted post is bogus and a total fabrication of non events.

Those who want to adhere strictly to traditions find their own solutions, do not complain or expect every one to change.

I am told that Sri Velukkudi krishnan, who stresses the importance of adherence to traditions in his upanyasams (tv or in person), in his foreign travels, eats only fruits in the flights, eats simple satvik food cooked by his wife wherever he stays.

shriman *** seems to belong to the brahmin bashing group and definitely does not belong to the well mannered brahmin support group.

Quoted above is the lament of an orthodox tabra who finds his life abroad very miserable. This is copy & paste from another forum. i have the url but will furnish it some time later so as to keep anonymity.

I request comments from all members - BBs and anti-BBs.

 

[sangom]

Respected Members,

I did not expect this much consideration for my OP. Hence my special thanks to all those who have responded.

To me it appeared, and does even now, that the problem with this gentleman is one specific condition which many tabras used to be particular about in the shift from the agrahaaram days to modern RCC houses and flats, even in Mumbai of the early 1960's. This was the requirement that one truly orthodox brahmin has to wash his feet, hands (up to the joints) and face with water, in a pure place (and not in the lavatory itself). So, I have seen many houses flats in those days where the Indian style lav will be inside a larger room with a separate door for the lav, and these orthodox people, on coming out of the lav, will do the above mandatory ablutions in the area outside the lav in the enclosing larger room with a tap and drain for water etc.

The non-orthodox used to make use of this ablution area as their bathroom. So in most houses there used to be a shower also installed by the side of the tap.

Now, I have seen that in my sons' houses abroad there is no provision for such independent cleaning area, nor a separate bathroom without any "inductive" connection to the lav; mostly the closet is in the large bathroom along with the bath-tub, shower and all the modern works.

For a brahmin with the traditional mindset this sort of set up is an absolute "anaachaaram". (I remember my childhood days in a village in central Travancore. We had more than one acre of compound, of which the piece lying to the north of the ancestral house at the centre was all available for 1 & 2 for men and children. (Women had a small area covered by a fence of thatched coconut leaves and the surrounding area itself used to stink.) After answering nature's call one used to walk about 100 or 150 feet to a small pond within our compound, wash and come up. This pond was not used for other purposes. Even as a child I used to have the doubt whether the water in that pond was sufficiently "maDi" since we were using the water with which we ourselves, or someone else had cleaned himself and the answer I used to get was "KoLatthu thaNNukku aSuddham kiTaiyaathu, bhoomiyile thoTTu iruppathaal" - pond water is always pure since it is in contact with earth. I was not convinced but could not think of any thing else except follow the others.

Saidevo,

It is right. You have perhaps googled the post right? This gentleman was advised or may be he advised someone else, to do KooshmaNDa homam after returning to India as praayaschittam (parihaaram?) for all such sins committed during a foreign trip. The url is -
Yahoo! Groups

My purpose in bringing this point here in this Forum was only to try to show how much of violation of aachaaram the tabras residing abroad, are doing, from the point of even an ordinary orthodox tabra; if we were to consider the views of an Acharya like HH Chandrasekharendra Sarswathi, perhaps he might have even dared to brand them as Mlecchas. Despite all these we have members residing abroad and making comments here as if they are the keepers of the eternal flame of brahmin lineage, haplogroup, and all that. This hypocrisy is all that I want to stress here.

 

[subbudu1]

Respected Members,

I did not expect this much consideration for my OP. Hence my special thanks to all those who have responded.

To me it appeared, and does even now, that the problem with this gentleman is one specific condition which many tabras used to be particular about in the shift from the agrahaaram days to modern RCC houses and flats, even in Mumbai of the early 1960's. This was the requirement that one truly orthodox brahmin has to wash his feet, hands (up to the joints) and face with water, in a pure place (and not in the lavatory itself). So, I have seen many houses flats in those days where the Indian style lav will be inside a larger room with a separate door for the lav, and these orthodox people, on coming out of the lav, will do the above mandatory ablutions in the area outside the lav in the enclosing larger room with a tap and drain for water etc.

The non-orthodox used to make use of this ablution area as their bathroom. So in most houses there used to be a shower also installed by the side of the tap.

Now, I have seen that in my sons' houses abroad there is no provision for such independent cleaning area, nor a separate bathroom without any "inductive" connection to the lav; mostly the closet is in the large bathroom along with the bath-tub, shower and all the modern works.

For a brahmin with the traditional mindset this sort of set up is an absolute "anaachaaram". (I remember my childhood days in a village in central Travancore. We had more than one acre of compound, of which the piece lying to the north of the ancestral house at the centre was all available for 1 & 2 for men and children. (Women had a small area covered by a fence of thatched coconut leaves and the surrounding area itself used to stink.) After answering nature's call one used to walk about 100 or 150 feet to a small pond within our compound, wash and come up. This pond was not used for other purposes. Even as a child I used to have the doubt whether the water in that pond was sufficiently "maDi" since we were using the water with which we ourselves, or someone else had cleaned himself and the answer I used to get was "KoLatthu thaNNukku aSuddham kiTaiyaathu, bhoomiyile thoTTu iruppathaal" - pond water is always pure since it is in contact with earth. I was not convinced but could not think of any thing else except follow the others.

Saidevo,

It is right. You have perhaps googled the post right? This gentleman was advised or may be he advised someone else, to do KooshmaNDa homam after returning to India as praayaschittam (parihaaram?) for all such sins committed during a foreign trip. The url is -
Yahoo! Groups

My purpose in bringing this point here in this Forum was only to try to show how much of violation of aachaaram the tabras residing abroad, are doing, from the point of even an ordinary orthodox tabra; if we were to consider the views of an Acharya like HH Chandrasekharendra Sarswathi, perhaps he might have even dared to brand them as Mlecchas. Despite all these we have members residing abroad and making comments here as if they are the keepers of the eternal flame of brahmin lineage, haplogroup, and all that. This hypocrisy is all that I want to stress here.

I am well aware that for any person who eats food outside his home in USA, it is impossible to retain that so-called purity as required by the shastras, why even strict vegetarianism.Atleast one mistake where there is a mixture would mean expiation.

I have a question for all the orthodox here who perform ceremonies abroad? How many are able to use ground water for their ceremonies and not supplied water? Even a thing like Amavasya tharpanam cannot be done on the water supplied by the municipality, am I not right?

 

[prasad1]

I believe the quoted post is bogus and a total fabrication of non events.

Those who want to adhere strictly to traditions find their own solutions, do not complain or expect every one to change.

I am told that Sri Velukkudi krishnan, who stresses the importance of adherence to traditions in his upanyasams (tv or in person), in his foreign travels, eats only fruits in the flights, eats simple satvik food cooked by his wife wherever he stays.

shriman *** seems to belong to the brahmin bashing group and definitely does not belong to the well mannered brahmin support group.

I applaud your sentiment and message of the comment. I could not have said it in that colorful language. LOL:tea:

 

[prasad1]

I have a younger (in 40's) friend. We were invited for dinner at their house, the hosts also sat down for a wonderful Madrasi dinner. The food was on the table, for all of us to share. Only Dahi was on the kitchen counter, I offered to bring it to table. They politely refused. When I wanted dahi, they suggested that I wash my left hand before I touch the Dahi. I was aghast, I remember that practice when we used to visit some relatives in Madras. By the way, all leftovers went back to same fridge.:faint:

 

[kunjuppu]

Hi Kunjuppu,

I don't post because my opinions are not going to change anyone's behavior or belief. I am still learning and I feel I am not qualified enough to make comments on the topics that get discussed here. I just made this post because I thought this was a good example of the implied superiority exhibited by TBs either knowingly or unknowingly.

Now I will retreat back into my shell.

K. Kumar

kumar,

i think, the purpose of posting, is to give the public the benefit of your pov. it is not to change someone's views, but more, to provide an appreciation of where you stand and why.

in addition, there is a large army of 'readers only' group, to whom, alternate arguements, may provide to be tools, to make better decisions on life.

so by posting, in a way, you are performing 'public' service.

i, for one, when reading some posts, have no option, but to seize my finges, and let them gallop away on the keyboards - either because i strongly agree, disagree or astounded at what i see as 'absurdity'.

hope this explains....