Meeting my amma after appa's demise

[tambrahm]

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Namaskaram,
I have high regards for this forum and I learn a lot from here.
I want to clarify something. I live in Singapore and recently a good and bad event happened in my life together. I gave birth to my first child in Singapore and within a few days I lost my father to heart attack. As baby was too young, I couldn't go to India for his funeral. We have some ritual in Brahmin custom that we have to see my mom within 10-13 days before 'pathu/subham' if not should see her only after a year. I was very upset and disturbed about it as I couldn't travel because baby didn't get passport. I had to prioritise my child here. I saw and spoke to my amma only on phone and skype. Now my doubt is that, Now baby is 2 months old, can I visit my mom with the baby. Can I also bring her with me to my house at Singapore. Both amma and I are very confused and afraid about breaking the old custom at the same time I want to ease my mom (want her to have a change and spend time with my baby). I am also worried if my in-laws will comment something about it. Manasukku romba kashtama iruku.
Can anyone guide me through my decision now - if I can meet my mom and if she can come to my house. We don't want to face any bad consequences of breaking the custom. I might sound over orthodox/foolish to some but 'bayam' bayamdhane... Family is already shaken by appa's death. We don't have energy to face any more bad events.

Please please help...

regards
Tambrahm

 

[sravna]

Namaskaram,
I have high regards for this forum and I learn a lot from here.
I want to clarify something. I live in Singapore and recently a good and bad event happened in my life together. I gave birth to my first child in Singapore and within a few days I lost my father to heart attack. As baby was too young, I couldn't go to India for his funeral. We have some ritual in Brahmin custom that we have to see my mom within 10-13 days before 'pathu/subham' if not should see her only after a year. I was very upset and disturbed about it as I couldn't travel because baby didn't get passport. I had to prioritise my child here. I saw and spoke to my amma only on phone and skype. Now my doubt is that, Now baby is 2 months old, can I visit my mom with the baby. Can I also bring her with me to my house at Singapore. Both amma and I are very confused and afraid about breaking the old custom at the same time I want to ease my mom (want her to have a change and spend time with my baby). I am also worried if my in-laws will comment something about it. Manasukku romba kashtama iruku.
Can anyone guide me through my decision now - if I can meet my mom and if she can come to my house. We don't want to face any bad consequences of breaking the custom. I might sound over orthodox/foolish to some but 'bayam' bayamdhane... Family is already shaken by appa's death. We don't have energy to face any more bad events.

Please please help...

regards
Tambrahm

Dear Smt. Tambrahm,

Your fear in my opinion is unfounded. Our customs are in some way or other means to discipline ourselves. I am not sure of the reason for the 1 year ban in our custom but your reason is so overwhelmingly strong that it can sure overrule any custom. I am sure you will get the right advice from the members in this forum.

 

[Raji Ram]

I feel sorry about your father's demise. Skype has helped you to see your mom and so I think there should not be any problem for

you to meet her in person. You can tell your in-laws that you have seen her already. But I am not sure how far they will accept!

I have discussed a lot in this forum about the humiliations that ONLY ladies face in our community. It does not have any forward

thinking and if your in-laws are the so called 'orthodox' lot, you are sure to have problems to bring your mom with you, within one year!

I would suggest to you to first talk to your husband and then to your in-laws, regarding this issue. The ideas from our forum members

will NOT help you. I do not have belief in the 'meeting within 10 days' issue! But what about your husband and in-laws?

 

[prasad1]

I agree with Rajiji's comment. These are purely social norms of the people involved. If your inlaws are going to have problem with your decision, members of this forum can not help you. If your husband is on your side, and he is there to forcefully fight for your cause, everything will be accepted. If he is wuss, and your in-laws (MIL) is going to be against you, no support is going to help you win that battle.

If you want to visit your mother (strongly), and your husband is behind that decision, you should visit your mother.
Members may suggest the arguments for your visit, quoting some custom. I am sure they can give you some pointers. Some praschittam may be done to pacify your in-laws.
I am sorry for your loss.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

This is not the time to fight and make a statement. Everybody is worried about "Naalu Per Enna Cholluva." You consult your husband and in laws.

Until and unless your husband and in laws agree do not break any custom.

When my father died, I was shocked at many of the customs. I objected but was overruled by my brothers and sisters.

Long after that when my elder brother died of a heart attack, we asked the vadhyar to go and jump in a well and did things in a civilized manner.

This is the cost the you have to pay for being born a Tamil Brahmin.

I repeat again this is not the time to break customs. Until and unless your husband and in laws fully agree.

 

[P.J.]

I would suggest to you to first talk to your husband and then to your in-laws, regarding this issue. The ideas from our forum members

will NOT help you.

Sorry about your loss.

Raji Madam has given you a very practical advice; Apart from general custom , family to family, certain customs differ and the best way is, to discuss this with your In law and with your Husband before you proceed further as they are the one who matter to you in your life.

Wish you get an appropriate solution to your current problem.

 

[sangom]

The idea of a widowed woman being seen within ten days' of the husband's demise, is not based on any religious basis AFAIK. Since the widow's head used to be shaved and she was required to undergo a lot of humiliation, those who would like to have a look of her in her old (sumangalee) form were required to visit within the ten day period.

You could not do that because of your new-born child. Now, if you are the only daughter of your parents, after discussing and with the consent of your husband, you can bring your mother to S'pore. But if you can allow some time (or if your husband is not fully supporting this step) it is better to wait till the end of one year. If your husband is not a conservative person and/or if your in-laws are slightly forward looking people, they should agree, because this stigma of widowhood is an invention of society, purely.

 

[Raghy]

Namaskaram,
I have high regards for this forum and I learn a lot from here.
I want to clarify something. I live in Singapore and recently a good and bad event happened in my life together. I gave birth to my first child in Singapore and within a few days I lost my father to heart attack. As baby was too young, I couldn't go to India for his funeral. We have some ritual in Brahmin custom that we have to see my mom within 10-13 days before 'pathu/subham' if not should see her only after a year. I was very upset and disturbed about it as I couldn't travel because baby didn't get passport. I had to prioritise my child here. I saw and spoke to my amma only on phone and skype. Now my doubt is that, Now baby is 2 months old, can I visit my mom with the baby. Can I also bring her with me to my house at Singapore. Both amma and I are very confused and afraid about breaking the old custom at the same time I want to ease my mom (want her to have a change and spend time with my baby). I am also worried if my in-laws will comment something about it. Manasukku romba kashtama iruku.
Can anyone guide me through my decision now - if I can meet my mom and if she can come to my house. We don't want to face any bad consequences of breaking the custom. I might sound over orthodox/foolish to some but 'bayam' bayamdhane... Family is already shaken by appa's death. We don't have energy to face any more bad events.

Please please help...

regards
Tambrahm

My condolences about your father's demise. It seems you are only speculating about your in-laws comments. They have not actually made any such comment.

You are running your family. You should allow for your priorities and circumstances. If you feel like visiting, you should be able to do it; if you feel like inviting your mother to S'pore, you should be able to do that too.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

I would not want to start our arguments at this time of need for this young lady. I am not a traditionalist and I do not live in TN and this is 21st century and not 14th century.
The combined age of people advising is 500 years. Who are we ancient people to advice on todays practice?
The customs are purely for either humiliating you or to show their own authority of person dictating the customs . There is no religious basis for these customs. If your mother is sick, break all customs and see her. If your husband is with you and you can convince your MIL to your side, you will not have to worry about anyone else's opinion. If your single mother can suffer some more humiliation, and you do not want to break some "idiotic custom" do wait.
If you are sorry for your mother and she wants to see you now, tell everybody to go jump in lake, and do what you want to do.

Like Kabir Das says:

Kaal Kare So Aaj Kar, Aaj Kare So Ub
Pal Mein Pralaya Hoyegi, Bahuri Karoge Kub






Translation


Tomorrows work do today, today's work now
If the moment is lost, the work be done how

 

[tbs]

hi
sorry for your father's demise...just consult ur husband...if he feels good....even he can manage his own parents....just talk with mom...i think nobody deny to visit

ur mom....now a days many sampradayams are breaking in chennai itself....we have thousands of sampradayams...from tanjavur

to tirunelveli....vellore to palakkad....just follow family norms....even my mom lit the fire for my grandparents....even my uncles

were not ready to that...she did herself.....my uncles were asking money for liting fire for their own parents...my mom boldly

did as a daughter and shaken the family tradions of tambrams....i wont say..what is correct or wrong?....but sometimes

we have to break for the sake of false EGO....

 

[renuka]

Dear Madam,

I am no follower of any custom cos I find most customs outdated for our present era but in your case I would only give you some practical suggestions:

1)Firstly I have no idea what is your exact relationship with your in laws..in the sense..are they nice to you?
If they are..then do not break any belief or custom so soon.

2)Secondly..have you asked your husband or in laws their opinion?
Do not let fear stop you from asking them.

But you also have to remember that may be your husband and inlaws might not actually like the fact of bringing over your mum before the 1 year period but they might just agree cos they might not want to spoil the relationship with you..but just in case something bad happens later..there is a risk the blame might shift on you.

I am just speculating here since there is a risk too.

3)You might be putting your husband in a fix here..just say he agrees but his parents disagree and he fights for you..things will never be the same for you again.

4)Remember you are staying with inlaws and husband..far away from your homeland..so to a certain extent that is a disadvantage..cos you have not much backup support if relationship goes sour.

5)I take it that your mum is being cared for by your brothers and sisters and she is not alone from your post.So technically she is not all alone..so your longing to see her is purely out of love and you are missing her..so WAIT..love won't decline within 1 year.
You can Skype and see her till the 1 year period is over.



For me frankly speaking..I do not believe in following any man made customs but for you I have given this practical advise cos you do seem to have a little fear of breaking customs and I take it and assume you are financially dependent on husband and value family ties a lot..so for you my advise is to wait till 1 year is over.

As long as we have fear in us..it is hard to break rules...so better follow traditions in that case becos just say if you face dire consequences by breaking rules..no forum member can come assist you.

All the best.

 

[tks]

Obviously such customs are not universal and not followed in every TB family. What you need is a strategy to deal with a social situation.

What you want is not to appear to be breaking a local custom and create more issues with your in-laws. But you want to see your mother and your mother wants to see your baby.

What you need then is an exception to the rule sanctioned by someone who is considered wiser and knowledgeable. If someone can come up with another rule that says once you have left the boundary of India you are not bound by a custom but need to go and see your mother for ensuring your father's blessings for all of you then this newly made up rule can give you legitimacy to visit your mother.

In other words reasons will not work with someone who steeped in beliefs that truly does not have a basis except that 'we used to be do it this way'. So trying to reason will not work. Instead invent another rule that someone elder in the family can provide an alternative. Even if many of your in-laws will think the new rule is nonsense they will not blame you but simply the person providing sanctions to such a new rule ..

Visiting your mother is the right thing to do at this time. Just invent a way out.. There are members here who may be able to find a way out that will look legitimate enough for you to quote and apply in case you are not able to find an elder to give you this sanction.

Bottomline: Find a new legitimacy that can break the tradition without appearing to break the tradition ..

All the best!

 

[SANDHYAV]

Terribly sorry to hear the news.


Psychologically 1 year is a normal grieving period after loss of a close one. But the greiving can vary from few weeks to many years and vary from individual to individual, various factors like family/financial/social support come to play. Some are very mature and divert their attention to the practical aspect of managing the family even immediately after the loss.

Atleast some section of the society will think about the loss for 1 year.

If i were you, it is my mother, i have not gone for a valid reason at the time of death. now i have time and money, my child, which is a bit older and wife have enough support to take care of themselves for few weeks in singapore. i will book a ticket and go and stay with my mom for few days and evaluate the situation. ( that will be my grieving process ) if you may call it.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Excellent and practical.

Dear Madam,

I am no follower of any custom cos I find most customs outdated for our present era but in your case I would only give you some practical suggestions:

1)Firstly I have no idea what is your exact relationship with your in laws..in the sense..are they nice to you?
If they are..then do not break any belief or custom so soon.

2)Secondly..have you asked your husband or in laws their opinion?
Do not let fear stop you from asking them.

But you also have to remember that may be your husband and inlaws might not actually like the fact of bringing over your mum before the 1 year period but they might just agree cos they might not want to spoil the relationship with you..but just in case something bad happens later..there is a risk the blame might shift on you.

I am just speculating here since there is a risk too.

3)You might be putting your husband in a fix here..just say he agrees but his parents disagree and he fights for you..things will never be the same for you again.

4)Remember you are staying with inlaws and husband..far away from your homeland..so to a certain extent that is a disadvantage..cos you have not much backup support if relationship goes sour.

5)I take it that your mum is being cared for by your brothers and sisters and she is not alone from your post.So technically she is not all alone..so your longing to see her is purely out of love and you are missing her..so WAIT..love won't decline within 1 year.
You can Skype and see her till the 1 year period is over.



For me frankly speaking..I do not believe in following any man made customs but for you I have given this practical advise cos you do seem to have a little fear of breaking customs and I take it and assume you are financially dependent on husband and value family ties a lot..so for you my advise is to wait till 1 year is over.

As long as we have fear in us..it is hard to break rules...so better follow traditions in that case becos just say if you face dire consequences by breaking rules..no forum member can come assist you.

All the best.

 

[prasad1]

I like Sandhyav, and Tks post. Please invent a reason to see your mother.
Renukaji has given you some practical advice.

 

[sravna]

It is unfair on oneself to be tied down by something when the need to act is more compelling. Of course some convincing needs to be done but if something has to be done for a fair cause, I think one should not be hesitant. In the present times I think it is something that is likely to be accepted.

Why sacrifice the real need for solace fearing some imaginary disaster in the future? I think anybody with the right thinking will not blame you for that unless they become strongly biased by tradition.

 

[Raji Ram]

.........I think anybody with the right thinking will not blame you for that unless they are so biased by tradition.

Dear Sir,

Yes... Very true! But what do we know about her family? If members here advise her to proceed and her husband and in-laws

object to her decision, what will be her plight? It is any day better for her to convince her husband and in-laws before she

decides her move.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sir,

Yes... Very true! But what do we know about her family? If members here advise her to proceed and her husband and in-laws

object to her decision, what will be her plight? It is any day better for her to convince her husband and in-laws before she

decides her move.

Dear Smt. RR,

That is what I meant. The husband and the in-laws need to be convinced and I think they will see the reason.

 

[Raji Ram]

........ The husband and the in-laws need to be convinced and I think they will see the reason.

Dear Sir,

You think so. But I have :noidea:

 

[renuka]

When advising anyone sometimes we need to give advise taking into the account the mindset of the person.

I remember seeing a movie once when the actress was very scared to talk to her lover's mother but some person tied some amulet around her and told her that it will make her brave and she felt brave and confronted her lover's mother.

Then half way the amulet fell down and she became all scared again.

This is called temporary braveness..so advise should not cause temporary guts and bravery and when the temporary effect is over the person might not be able to cope with the consequences.

Breaking traditions and customs can not be done over night.

It takes many years of analyzing customs and weighing its pros and cons to actually break free from customs.

To me I feel many marriage and death rituals itself are uncalled.

I am saying this now cos I am 42 years old and have analyzed things in my own way but I won't impose my believes on others besides the fact that I have been a rebel all my life!

Most of us members here are not that young anymore..most of us are married with kids and have acquired some guts after years of marriage and aging.

The person concerned in this thread is very young and just had her 1st child.

There are lot of changes and adjustments in a life of a new mother..not to forget the lack of sleep a new baby gives a mum..post partum blues and also juggling husband and baby and also surging emotions.

So now it is NOT the time for anyone to become a reformist!

Even in my day to day practice seeing patients...I give different advise to different patients even if the personal problem they face is the same cos I have to take into account the mindset of the patient.

 

[Raji Ram]

......Please invent a reason to see your mother. ......

Invent a reason!?

She has two very valid reasons to meet her mom.

1. To console her in person.

2. To show the new arrival in the family to her mom.

She wants to bring her mother to her house for a good change. But the big '?' is whether her family will stick to the

age old tradition or will it agree to the valid reasons!

 

[suraju06]

Hi Tambrahm,

It appears your present dilemma has even clouded the enormity of the loss of your father. Now let me put myself in your place and think about it. This would be my thought process:

All the nice moments of my life with my father rush through my mind I am unable to control my grief. And yes, how bad my mother must be feeling. She has spent more of her life with him than with any one else in this world. What a loss it must be for her. I want to go and console her. But then am I free to do that! I have a child and a family and I am far away in Singapore. I have waited for two months so that my young baby can be taken to India. Now people say that there is a rule of sastra that I can not see my mother’s face for another 10 months because I did not visit her within 10 days of the death of my father. I find there is no rationale for that sastra. May be in the remote past it was difficult for someone to see one’s mother after she had changed over permanently to a white saree, with head shaved off, sacrificing all ornaments etc.,(all this happens after the tenth day ceremony). But now my mother is not like that. We have not done any of those horrible things to my mother. So I can visit her. I have seen her in skype and have spoken to her. So I am determined to visit India to see her and bring her here so that she need not feel the pain of loss of my father in loneliness. She would love to spend time with us and with the child. But what about my husband and in laws. As I have made up my mind about seeing and bringing my mother here, I have to sell this to my husband and in laws. I will do that. I think it won’t be very difficult as we have many time in the past violated many inconvenient sastric injunctions. If there is resistance I will have to overcome it with reasoning. I WILL do that. Now that problem solved, I have my own mind and accumulated false beliefs, values and fears to deal with. Will I be inviting divine wrath if I do what any way I would do? If I ignore the lurking fear of the unknown I may not be able to live peacefully if something bad happens in the family. So I have to find a solution. What do I do. Yes I am a believer. I have immense faith in God. I will go to the temple and pray before I go to India. God will certainly take care of my helplessness. If something bad happens later after all this, it will be God’s will and was to happen any way. Atleast I wont be dogged by my fear of the unknown.

 

[sangom]

Smt. Tambram,

For tabras here in Kerala, and even in KK and Tirunelveli districts, I understand from my wife that the rule which has for long been followed is that if a sumanagalee is unable to see a widow within ten days of the death of the husband, the period of 40 days should elapse and then only she (the widowed woman) can be seen. If your husband's parents belong to these sides of the country, they will surely agree to your coming to India to see your mother. As for taking your mother to S'pore, it is a different dimension and you and your husband will have to jointly decide, I believe.

Hope this helps you in solving your problem.

 

[Raji Ram]

Wonder why there is NO reply from the thread starter yet!!

 

[venkat2206]

As I heard when I was in TN, there is a pariharam for this. Instead of meeting your mother at home, you can meet her in any temple with some water in a "sombu". Both of you should look at the water first and then can see each other. Subsequently you can go to her house and do other things as you wish. I do not know the significance of this but this is what I heard. By doing this, you are also following the old customs and at the same time arriving at a practical solution.

Hope this solution may help you to certain extent. Very sorry about the demise of your father.

Venkat K