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Mercury power and ancient flying Vimana

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[h=1]IISc research debunked long ago myth of ancient Indian flying[/h]A former pilot has now added an ancient Indian twist to the tale claiming that almost 6,000 years ago, the art of flying was known to Indian sage, Maharishi Bhardwaj, and an Indian actually made a plane using that knowledge and flew with it two decades before the Wright brothers’ success, but nobody documented it.

Capt Anand J Bodas had made such wild assertions in the past. But this time, the retired pilot spoke at one of the sessions at the 102th edition of the Indian Science Congress in Mumbai University, triggering a controversy.

The session where he spoke was titled “Ancient Sciences through Sanskrit,” and was organised by the Kavikulguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek.

The speakers were selected by a committee headed by Science Congress president S B Nimse, who is a mathematician. Besides Bodas, there is no controversy on other talks on yoga, ancient architecture and surgery – areas where Indians are known to have excelled in the past.

“Study of ancient knowledge is a legitimate subject. There are scientific researches on the validity of Yoga and ancient mathematical knowledge, but when one talks about aviation, a suspicion (about the motive) arises,” said a scientist, who extensively studied ancient Indian texts.

To begin with, the text which Bodas quoted is not exactly antique. The Sanskrit verses, which are the starting point of the ancient-Indian-flying story, was printed in two books named Brihad Vimana Shastra and Vymanika Shastra, published half a century ago. Both contain those verses.

Four decades ago, five young scientists at the Indian Institute of Science, Bengaluru, decided to check the vintage and veracity of the claims enshrined in those Sanskrit verses. They traced the authorship to Pandit Subbaraya Shastry, who lived in Anekal in Karnataka, and died in 1941. The texts were written between 1900 and 1922.

“It appears that Shastry was supposedly endowed with certain mystical powers and used to spell out verses (shlokas) whenever he got inspiration. These (verses) used to be promptly taken by one of his aides G V Sharma,” the scientists had observed in a 1974 research paper. Subsequently, a manuscript was made and copies were prepared, which found their ways to the two titles.

The accompanying drawings were made by someone named Ellappa, who was a draughtsman in a local engineering training college.

Four types of aircraft (or Vimana) were mentioned. They were Shakuna, Sundara, Rukma and Tripura. The last one (Tripura) can fly in air, and move in water and land.

“The planes described above are the best poor concoction, rather than expression of something real. None of the planes has the properties or capabilities of being flown; the geometries are unimaginably horrendous from the point of view of flying and the principles of propulsion make them resist rather than assist flying,” the scientists wrote in the journal Scientific Opinion.

One of the materials used to fuel Sundara Vimana is donkey’s urine while Panchamrita (honey, sugar, milk, yogurt and ghee) is a key component to make the Shakuna Vimana. In Tripura Vimana, something called a milk cloth was used and Rukma Vimana is a “decided impossibility.”

Descriptions of Rukma Vimana mention a speed of 625 miles per hour, which is incredible even for a sleek aircraft and just impossible for the kind of geometry used.

The text and the drawings the IISc team found, do not correlate with each other even thematically. The drawings definitely point to a knowledge of modern machinery. This occurred possibly because of Ellappa, who was in a local engineering college and was familiar with names and details of some machinery.

“Thematically, the drawings ought to be ruled out of discussions and the text is incomplete and ambiguous by itself and incorrect at many places,” says the paper.

While the text retains a structure in language and content from which its recent nature can’t be assessed, the researchers analysed the language for dating the text.

The text contains shlokas set to Anushtup metre and its language is quite simple and modern. Since the number of words, with a structure similar to that of Vedic Sanskrit is very few and their usage is incidental, it appears appropriate to conclude that the Sanskrit used in the text is modern.

Rigveda as scientific text
Another significant point is an almost complete absence of any mention of the use of aircraft in innumerable Sanskrit text in the post Vedic period. One text named Samarangana Sutradhara by Bhoja deals with some description of aircraft but does not quote any earlier work. Bhoja states detailed description of their construction and other features will not be given lest the same be used for evil purposes by people.

Ramayana and Mahabharata make no mention of aircraft except Pushpak Vimana, which has no flying qualities except possibly by invocation of “mantras or tantras.” Whether they existed at all can’t be decided within the realm of science. “There is now a flourishing industry which seeks to establish the Rigveda as a modern scientific text of great contemporary value.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/452573/iisc-research-debunked-long-ago.html
 
The whole write up appears completely one sided. I know nothing more about aircraft design than that at the right angle, with the right thrust if you have a design which will give you the lift then you can be airborne. If Bodas is familiar with aircraft Design, aerodynamics etc., and has given a lecture to a forum of peers who are learned men, why not give his side of the story also in detail? The attempt, it appears, is to laugh at him, discredit him and declare that we did not know anything about flying and then with a satisfaction go to sleep. In the absence of what Bodas said it is just onesided haranguing against the knowledge and discounting it outright.

To that extent this write up is suspect.

And about Mercury nothing is presented even though it is part of the OP. LOL.
 
The whole write up appears completely one sided. I know nothing more about aircraft design than that at the right angle, with the right thrust if you have a design which will give you the lift then you can be airborne. If Bodas is familiar with aircraft Design, aerodynamics etc., and has given a lecture to a forum of peers who are learned men, why not give his side of the story also in detail? The attempt, it appears, is to laugh at him, discredit him and declare that we did not know anything about flying and then with a satisfaction go to sleep. In the absence of what Bodas said it is just onesided haranguing against the knowledge and discounting it outright.

To that extent this write up is suspect.
That is insulting to IISC or shows ignorance of this poster.

And about Mercury nothing is presented even though it is part of the OP. LOL.

According to Vaagmiji doctrine when one presents an opinion they have to produce a paper analyzing both sides of an arguments.
Going by this doctrine a prosecutor in a case has to be a defender as well, otherwise it is only one-sided.
Does the doctrine apply to you or is it only for others. When you were having debate with Chandruji I never saw one comment from you supporting his side.

My post was a research paper from IISC, I suppose you know that institute.
A simple "Google" would have given you all information about Capt Anand J Bodas and his theory.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/news...n-aviation-technology-science-congress-020149

At the Indian Science Congress on Sunday, at a special session called “Vedic Science through Sanskrit’’, a former pilot, Captain Anand J Bodas, claimed that aircraft technology existed in India thousands of years before the Wright brothers’ first flight in 1903. To substantiate his claim that aeronautical engineering in India dates back to Vedic times, Bodas referred to a book, Vyamanika Shastra, that claims to document ancient sage Maharishi Bharadwaja’s musings on aviation technology.

What was not mentioned, however, was that exactly 40 years ago, a group of five young Indian scientists from the aeronautical engineering and mechnical engineering departments of the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore had debunked such claims after conducting a thorough study.

The group, led by H S Mukunda, a now retired professor of aerospace engineering from IISc, had found that none of the technologies documented in the Vymanika Shashtra would allow an object to fly. They also found that the Vyamanika Shastra was based on a figment of imagination of a man who lived in the 20th century, and not the ancient sage Maharishi Bharadwaja.
In a paper titled “Critical Study of the Work Vyamanika Shastra’’, published in the journal Scientific Opinion in 1974, Mukunda, S M Deshpande, H R Nagendra, A Prabhu and S P Govindaraju said: “The planes described are at the best poor concoctions rather than expressions of something real. None of the planes has properties or capabilities of being flown; the geometries are unimaginably horrendous from the point of view of flying; and the principles of propulsion make then resist rather than assist flying.”
- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-debunked-flying-claims/#sthash.prLACqCc.dpuf

I was under the illusion that Vaagmiji was a man of science (from claims made), my mistake.
 
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One need not think too much of a research paper by a few youngsters in 1974 belonging to an elite institution in india.

I wonder how much of aerodynamics they also know in the first place.

Vyamanika sastra -and claims about aircraft technology existing in india thousands of years back may sound pleasing to some ears .

beyond that this type of claims do not call for much debate in this forum.
 
According to Vaagmiji doctrine when one presents an opinion they have to produce a paper analyzing both sides of an arguments. Going by this doctrine a prosecutor in a case has to be a defender as well, otherwise it is only one-sided.

There is no vaagmi doctrine or prasad1 doctrine. It is simple. You said there was lecture in the august assembly of science congress (usually top rung scientists attend this kind of conference and the papers to be presented in such conferences are carefully chosen for the quality of the content). You also said a certain Mr. Bodas came and said some blah blah about a horse laying eggs in ancient India. That made me laugh first. But when I read carefully I found that the post did not have any info about what the presenter of the paper exactly talked about. So asked for the details and I thought in the absence of details it will be just one-sided judgment of the presenter of the paper. Where is the doctrine here? As you say if you admit that it is just the document of a prosecutor there woulod have been nothing to ask. Are you a prosecutor or a presenter of facts here? I thought you were neutral presenting the facts as they were. I forgot that you are a jihadi attacking every thing Indian particularly if it is ancient. LOL.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/news...n-aviation-technology-science-congress-020149

If you had given this link earlier that might have been useful. You did not do that.

I was under the illusion that Vaagmiji was a man of science (from claims made), my mistake.

Vaagmiji is a scientist alright but with an open mind to look at any thing ancient or new presented to him. Only he would be satisfied if info is presented as it is--not clipped or attenuated by prejudiced, myopic load of personal preferences. LOL

I have chosen to reply to relevant points only in your post leaving aside the rest of sniping at me. LOL.
 
One need not think too much of a research paper by a few youngsters in 1974 belonging to an elite institution in india.

I wonder how much of aerodynamics they also know in the first place.

Vyamanika sastra -and claims about aircraft technology existing in india thousands of years back may sound pleasing to some ears .

beyond that this type of claims do not call for much debate in this forum.
This session was purely for saffronization of a science conference.

The session where he spoke was titled “Ancient Sciences through Sanskrit,” and was organised by the Kavikulguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek.

The speakers were selected by a committee headed by Science Congress president S B Nimse, who is a mathematician. Besides Bodas, there is no controversy on other talks on yoga, ancient architecture and surgery – areas where Indians are known to have excelled in the past.

“Study of ancient knowledge is a legitimate subject. There are scientific researches on the validity of Yoga and ancient mathematical knowledge, but when one talks about aviation, a suspicion (about the motive) arises,” said a scientist, who extensively studied ancient Indian texts.

Other international science conferences do not politicize science conferences, as a general practice.
By introducing such "outlandish" ideas in International science conference, it insults true scientists, and India.
 
prasadji
I understand.

with change of regime , many such entities have sprung up with tacit support of the political class.

Science forums are being encouraged to put up with papers extolling our hindu past with no scientific basis whatsoever.

most scientists are getting disgusted with infiltration of political elements ..

any resistance or opposition leads to confrontation with bad results
 
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To me the subjects aircraft Design, aerodynamics etc. are Greek and Latin and are in different " parallel planes" to me. But one thing for sure, I know Indians are second to none in aircraft Design, aerodynamics. In a wing of the US based multinational company GE at Bangalore, an ENGINEER has made some inventions in aircraft engine Design and improvised the engine models and got 3 patterns (for his company GE). Surprisingly he is a TB and IITian from chennai.
yesmohan
 
To me the subjects aircraft Design, aerodynamics etc. are Greek and Latin and are in different " parallel planes" to me. But one thing for sure, I know Indians are second to none in aircraft Design, aerodynamics. In a wing of the US based multinational company GE at Bangalore, an ENGINEER has made some inventions in aircraft engine Design and improvised the engine models and got 3 patterns (for his company GE). Surprisingly he is a TB and IITian from chennai.
yesmohan
hi

many engineers in NASA too..
 
3 patterns (for his company GE). Surprisingly he is a TB and IITian from chennai.
yesmohan

I guess it is patents....Why surprisingly TB....If given an opportunity TB's can flower in fundamental research and advanced technology...With less opportunities in India and lack of sponsorship for research based projects, our R & D is in deep slumber
 
Since indian history and indian science have been consistently suppressed by the communists and macaulayputras in the last two centuries, anything said or claimed generates negative violent reaction from these groups. Indian history congress did not allow research work or allowed papers denying aryan invasion theory. In the recent science conference one session was allowed to discuss topics related to science in ancient india. As in normal conferences, the papers are for debate and ideas expressed are likely to be accepted or ridiculed. Malcom narasimha has written an excellent forward on this issue of indian science session in the conference. This topic was discussed in our forum, I had given relevant references.

Till now in the research conference-publishing train, the leftist JNU historians and sickulars forcefully occupied all the seats and did not allow votaries of indian knowledge systems to enter. Now the situation has changed, and all have to fight for space in the knowledge domain, and this is a new experience for the old brigade. Why the media is keeping quiet on the dearth of funding from foreign donors for the JNU projects is anybody's guess; perhaps the recent clamp on foreign donations is responsible.

India centred scientists and historians have a better environment to study and publish bharath's contribution in those fields, and develop special tools for location, deciphering and publishing tens of thousands of manuscripts scattered all over the world, mainly in europe and usa.
 
Is Science Western in Origin?

A book by C K Raju, Fly leaf back cover and a short write up by Vinay Lal


On stock Western history, science originated among the Greeks, and then developed in post-renaissance Europe. This story was fabricated in three phases.

First, during the Crusades, scientific knowledge from across the world, in captured Arabic books, was given a theologically-correct origin by claiming it was all transmitted from the Greeks. The key cases of Euclid (geometry) and Claudius Ptolemy (astronomy)— both concocted figures — are used to illustrate this process.

Second, during the Inquisition, world scientific knowledge was again assigned a theologically-correct origin by claiming it was not transmitted from others, but was “independently rediscovered” by Europeans. The cases of Copernicus and Newton (calculus) illustrate this process of “revolution by rediscovery”.

Third, the appropriated knowledge was reinterpreted and aligned to post-Crusade theology. Colonial and racist historians exploited this, arguing that the (theologically) “correct” version of scientific knowledge (geometry, calculus, etc.) existed only in Europe.

These processes of appropriation continue to this day.

[h=2]What is the book about?[/h]
How the history of science was fabricated during Crusades and Inquisition (and before racism and colonialism).


"In his densely argued essay, Raju makes mincemeat of the received view of the Greek origins of science...Having established that the story of the transmission of astronomy and geometry from the Greeks...cannot be given any credence, Raju argues that, in the period of the Inquisition, a concerted attempt was made to suggest that Europeans independently rediscovered the scientific knowledge. Raju sees in the much-celebrated account of the supposed Copernican revolution, which takes us from a geocentric view of the universe to a heliocentric view, evidence only of a sustained and pernicious hellenocentrism. Though Copernicus used Islamic sources to reach his conclusions, he failed to acknowledge them....
"Raju’s intent here is also to question the supposition that knowledge in the West has a secular cast. ‘Note how theology has crept in’, he avers: ‘we are asked to believe that science is about deducing the consequences of some “laws” instituted by a god who created the cosmos, as has been made out in the West since Newton'."
Vinay Lal
http://ckraju.net/books/Is-Science-Western-in-Origin.html
 
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