Misconception about the Varnasrama Dharma

[gopaindu]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

In Purusha Sukta, Viswaroopa of God is referred to and a question relates to the normal understanding of head, shoulders, thighs and feet. Then the reply comes as Brahmins as Head, Kshatriyas as shoulders, Viashyas are thighs and feet are Shudras. The same is applicable to human beings also. Suppose you take the case of human beings. The brain does the though processs and also represents intellect. The shoulders represent doing archery, boxing, wrestling, protecting oneself with sword and other instruments. The thighs including stomach and vital parts represent the pleasures of life. The feet represents the service done by going to various places. On this analogy and each and every part is vital for proper life of a human being. In fact, service means, going to temples, doing different kinds of service to god. Like human being Viswaroopa of God representing Varnasrama Dharma is essential for the survival of all the communities. Therefore, no varnasrama dharma whether brahmin, Kshetriya, vaishya or shudra is superior or inferior to one another. Brahmins takes care of the Welfare of the community by doing prayers, giving advise to people, helping the people by donation of their possesssions. Similarly Kshatriyas protect the people with the skills acquired for the purpose. The Vaishyas ensure that material wealth earned by them through trade is distributed proportionately. The Shudras represent the service sector of the present day world which is deemed more valueable than others sectors. Without service the whole community cannot survive. In that way each varna is essential. Somehow, due to general deterioration of values over the period, certain brahmins became vaishyas in amassing wealth through business or service. Presently only two classes of people exist i.e. haves and have nots. The Varna was identified by the profession one does and not by the family in which one is born. The same rule should be applied now also. Over the period especially after entry of English into the country, the convention of people being identified by the family in which they were born due to selfishness. This convention has thrown the system of Varna out of gear totally. As for Vaishnavites are concerned, though the Azhwars belonged to various castes/Varna, all are being held in high esteem even today. The reason for referring to vaishnavites behaviour is that I am a devotee of Vishnu and consider him as the supreme being. Of course, this does not mean that other gods/deities are not supreme beings. In my opinion giving a name to a god/deity is out of fancy and nothing else. I stand for correction of my views if I am convinced that I am wrong. The use of word if convinced should not be taken to mean that I am rigid in my beliefs and notions. raja48

 

[renuka]

eace:eace:eace:


Om Shanti Shanti Shantih..

Nice post you started.Dont get me wrong why I put Om Shanti 3x..
You will need it soon.

regards
renu

 

[gopaindu]

Misconception of Varnasrama Dharma

Renu Madam, (Ref: Post No.2
I am unable to understand the significance of your statement. If you had meant that I should remain cool after reading the posts that would come in future, thank you for good wishes. I am not even slightly disturbed on reading the posts which decry my theory on the basis of so called facts. For example, everybody knows that there is God, may be Vishnu, Shiva, Devi, Christ, Allah,etc. Unfortunate thing is that nobody has faith in God. As far as I am concerned there are only two classes of people viz., believers and non-believers. I am sure that non-believers may be in very large numbers, the believers would only be few. Those who believe in God alone can reach him. Others can only survive in this world.raja48

 

[renuka]

Varnasrama Dharma.

Today I am going to get busy in my clinic.I am going to harvest a Brahmana's head,a Kshatriya's upper limbs,a Vaishya's torso and a Sudhra's lower limbs.
Then I am going to suture all the body parts and play Dr Frankenstein a while and since its raining here tonite with lots of lightning..I hope to jump start my Caturvarna creation.Give me sometime please...

Ok back...He didnt start!!!I tried even connecting to my car battery and my main 240V switch board.

Missing ingredient ...ATMA



The Vishwaroopa of PARAMAATMA was just used as an Anatomical Subject to explain to us humans the role each play in society and not that anyone was preferred over the other.

So its back to Eka Atma Sarvabhootaantaraatma


There is only One Caste..The Caste of Humanity..

 

[renuka]

Renu Madam, (Ref: Post No.2
I am unable to understand the significance of your statement. If you had meant that I should remain cool after reading the posts that would come in future, thank you for good wishes. I am not even slightly disturbed on reading the posts which decry my theory on the basis of so called facts. For example, everybody knows that there is God, may be Vishnu, Shiva, Devi, Christ, Allah,etc. Unfortunate thing is that nobody has faith in God. As far as I am concerned there are only two classes of people viz., believers and non-believers. I am sure that non-believers may be in very large numbers, the believers would only be few. Those who believe in God alone can reach him. Others can only survive in this world.raja48

dear gopa..

dont worry..i didnt really mean anything personal..see i am already giving inputs to u..i like your posts..makes people think..

renu

 

[gopaindu]

Varnasrama Dharma

Madam renu,(Refost No.4 of Varnasrama dharma)
It is an omission that the word atma or paramatma did not find a place in my posting. For your information, this is my first creation like a primary student and some omissions in the post can be overlooked for the reason that I am conveying my views not in reply to any post. Notwithstanding my omission, I am unable to comprehend your clinical terminologies. Kindly explain as I am only an average intelligence person. By the way thanks for the complement as also pointing my omission. raja48

 

[renuka]

Madam renu,(Refost No.4 of Varnasrama dharma)
It is an omission that the word atma or paramatma did not find a place in my posting. For your information, this is my first creation like a primary student and some omissions in the post can be overlooked for the reason that I am conveying my views not in reply to any post. Notwithstanding my omission, I am unable to comprehend your clinical terminologies. Kindly explain as I am only an average intelligence person. By the way thanks for the complement as also pointing my omission. raja48

Dear Gopa,

You didnt omit anything dear..I was just expanding on what you wrote.
What you wrote was quite comprehensive only.

When I wrote missing ingredient..ATMA i didnt mean you missed out ATMA in your post.
What I meant is that if I stitch up a Brahmana's head,a Kshatriya's upper limbs, a Vaishya's torso and a Shudra's lower limb..I wont be able to make him come alive as the ATMA is not there.Thats what I meant by missing ingredient.

What I like about most of your replies is you are a humble person who is willing to learn and admit if you are not too sure of anything.Like how you asked me here what i wrote.

God bless you always.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Raja, Greetings.

I stand for correction of my views if I am convinced that I am wrong. The use of word if convinced should not be taken to mean that I am rigid in my beliefs and notions.

How do you like your 'correction', please? Should it be based on religion or should it be based only on logic? I can provide that to you either way.

I used to chant Purusha Suktam by rote. Even though I did not know Sanskrit, Slowly I started getting the gist of what I was chanting.... then I learned the meaning. Even though you 'think' your opening post sounds nice, in reality, it does not.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka wished you Shanti 3 times for a very good reason. There is no misconception about varnashrama dhama....sorry, varnashrama adharma.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear all,

I just have a simple and humble request and dont intend to offend anyone..
I feel in this forum we have varying opinions at either end of the spectrum and please let some newcomers share their thoughts and understandings.

We senior members are familiar with the name of the game played here but please have some compassion for newcomers.

Not everyone is wide read and as learned as some here and many are struggling to make and effort to learn something.

Freedom to think is a right of any human but here I have noticed in this Forum its just a wars of egos and the wars of establishing reign.

Some might think that I am only talking for the Believers Camp..but thats not what I am doing.Even in the thread I maintain Sai Lives On..I have put some links on Mahabharat and Krishna A Historical Reality..its info for all and if anyone want to debate it on any grounds you are most welcome but dont debate it in that thread..you can take that link and discuss it in an seperate thread.

So i feel Gopaindu is just trying to discuss his opinion here..If we start shooting down everyone who starts anything..we will hardly have any members who can contribute..Have you guys noticed how many members have left?
I used to like Durgadasan's work I dont see him anymore.

Many are leaving this forum..even I am a member of another Forum but I still contribute here even taking stuff from the other forum for the benefit of those here.Its like a Love Hate Relationship with this Forum.. I Cant live with it neither can I stay without it.

Sometimes we have to think of others also and not ourselves.
No one is actually preaching and trying to convert any one to Theism here.
Thats the beauty of Sanathana Dharma..we are Free and even a believe in God is not compulsory as long you believe in yourself.

Just Love All and Live and Let Live..You dont lose anything by doing so.

 

[Brahin]

Dear all,

I just have a simple and humble request and dont intend to offend anyone..
I feel in this forum we have varying opinions at either end of the spectrum and please let some newcomers share their thoughts and understandings.

We senior members are familiar with the name of the game played here but please have some compassion for newcomers.

Not everyone is wide read and as learned as some here and many are struggling to make and effort to learn something.

Freedom to think is a right of any human but here I have noticed in this Forum its just a wars of egos and the wars of establishing reign.

Some might think that I am only talking for the Believers Camp..but thats not what I am doing.Even in the thread I maintain Sai Lives On..I have put some links on Mahabharat and Krishna A Historical Reality..its info for all and if anyone want to debate it on any grounds you are most welcome but dont debate it in that thread..you can take that link and discuss it in an seperate thread.

So i feel Gopaindu is just trying to discuss his opinion here..If we start shooting down everyone who starts anything..we will hardly have any members who can contribute..Have you guys noticed how many members have left?
I used to like Durgadasan's work I dont see him anymore.

Many are leaving this forum..even I am a member of another Forum but I still contribute here even taking stuff from the other forum for the benefit of those here.Its like a Love Hate Relationship with this Forum.. I Cant live with it neither can I stay without it.

Sometimes we have to think of others also and not ourselves.
No one is actually preaching and trying to convert any one to Theism here.
Thats the beauty of Sanathana Dharma..we are Free and even a believe in God is not compulsory as long you believe in yourself.

Just Love All and Live and Let Live..You dont lose anything by doing so.

வணக்கம் Renu dear,

Thank you for the above post.


Regards,
Brahin

 

[tks]

Dear all,

I just have a simple and humble request and dont intend to offend anyone..
I feel in this forum we have varying opinions at either end of the spectrum and please let some newcomers share their thoughts and understandings.

We senior members are familiar with the name of the game played here but please have some compassion for newcomers.

Not everyone is wide read and as learned as some here and many are struggling to make and effort to learn something.

Freedom to think is a right of any human but here I have noticed in this Forum its just a wars of egos and the wars of establishing reign.

Some might think that I am only talking for the Believers Camp..but thats not what I am doing.Even in the thread I maintain Sai Lives On..I have put some links on Mahabharat and Krishna A Historical Reality..its info for all and if anyone want to debate it on any grounds you are most welcome but dont debate it in that thread..you can take that link and discuss it in an seperate thread.

So i feel Gopaindu is just trying to discuss his opinion here..If we start shooting down everyone who starts anything..we will hardly have any members who can contribute..Have you guys noticed how many members have left?
I used to like Durgadasan's work I dont see him anymore.

Many are leaving this forum..even I am a member of another Forum but I still contribute here even taking stuff from the other forum for the benefit of those here.Its like a Love Hate Relationship with this Forum.. I Cant live with it neither can I stay without it.

Sometimes we have to think of others also and not ourselves.
No one is actually preaching and trying to convert any one to Theism here.
Thats the beauty of Sanathana Dharma..we are Free and even a believe in God is not compulsory as long you believe in yourself.

Just Love All and Live and Let Live..You dont lose anything by doing so.

Smt Renu - I may not have understood what you have said 3 weeks ago but it makes sense now. Having said that I do think Sri Gopaindu is looking for discussions, criticiques, comments - including opposing views - provided they relfect scholarly analysis, thoughtful, respectful, agenda-less etc.
Regards

 

[tks]

In Purusha Sukta, Viswaroopa of God is referred to and a question relates to the normal understanding of head, shoulders, thighs and feet. Then the reply comes as Brahmins as Head, Kshatriyas as shoulders, Viashyas are thighs and feet are Shudras. The same is applicable to human beings also. Suppose you take the case of human beings. The brain does the though processs and also represents intellect. The shoulders represent doing archery, boxing, wrestling, protecting oneself with sword and other instruments. The thighs including stomach and vital parts represent the pleasures of life. The feet represents the service done by going to various places. On this analogy and each and every part is vital for proper life of a human being. In fact, service means, going to temples, doing different kinds of service to god. Like human being Viswaroopa of God representing Varnasrama Dharma is essential for the survival of all the communities. Therefore, no varnasrama dharma whether brahmin, Kshetriya, vaishya or shudra is superior or inferior to one another. Brahmins takes care of the Welfare of the community by doing prayers, giving advise to people, helping the people by donation of their possesssions. Similarly Kshatriyas protect the people with the skills acquired for the purpose. The Vaishyas ensure that material wealth earned by them through trade is distributed proportionately. The Shudras represent the service sector of the present day world which is deemed more valueable than others sectors. Without service the whole community cannot survive. In that way each varna is essential. Somehow, due to general deterioration of values over the period, certain brahmins became vaishyas in amassing wealth through business or service. Presently only two classes of people exist i.e. haves and have nots. The Varna was identified by the profession one does and not by the family in which one is born. The same rule should be applied now also. Over the period especially after entry of English into the country, the convention of people being identified by the family in which they were born due to selfishness. This convention has thrown the system of Varna out of gear totally. As for Vaishnavites are concerned, though the Azhwars belonged to various castes/Varna, all are being held in high esteem even today. The reason for referring to vaishnavites behaviour is that I am a devotee of Vishnu and consider him as the supreme being. Of course, this does not mean that other gods/deities are not supreme beings. In my opinion giving a name to a god/deity is out of fancy and nothing else. I stand for correction of my views if I am convinced that I am wrong. The use of word if convinced should not be taken to mean that I am rigid in my beliefs and notions. raja48

The entire Suktam is filled with metaphors and one could have a discourse lasting for a day on each verse. It starts out with

“A thousand heads the Lord does have,
a thousand eyes, a thousand feet
Completely he pervades the world,
And yet, beyond it, he extends (by 1/4th of an inch!) “

It is hard to visualize such a comical description and why should he pervade and then extend it?
It refers to the Only Isvara from which everything came (1000 symbolically meaning all infinite beings) an imminent aspects of Isvara. The extension refers to Transcendent aspects of Isvara which lies beyond what can be comprehended by our sense organs and five means of knowledge:

1. Prathyaksham (Perception which includes all 5 sense organs)
2. Anumanam (Inference)
3. Upamanam (Comparison)
4. Arthapathi (presumption, multi-step logic)
5. Anupalabdhi (non-existence)

There is a 6th one – which are the Vedas (huge topic often confused with faith’ based directives of other religions)

The reason I wanted to provide this detail is that every verse has great meanings but the unifying theme is that it makes one recognize that ‘there is not one God, but only God’. It is another huge topic how this view can be reconciled with serious disorders in any society such as serial killers, human traffickers, suicide bombers, factory farming workers and consumers of their product etc.

Purusha Suktam uses terminologies that can be understood by all people that all beings are manifestations of Isvara. It does not promote or speaks against any social order. However the universal message of respect is reflected in the description that (just like 1000 heads and 1000 eyes) Brahmana came from head etc. For a person to be full you need all ‘body parts’ and they all are interdependent. The metaphor uses descriptions of an order that may have existed then though I am not a historian.

It does not talk about hierarchy or that they have to be ‘birth based’. It uses social order to drive home the message of universality. We fall on Lords feet in a temple. A laborer metaphorically is like the feet of the cosmic being and hence deserves regard no more or no less than anyone else.

It will be an unfortunate spin if the verses were seen as a directive to support Varnasrama since the universal message will be contradictory to what Varnasrama evolved to be. There are ignorant speakers and writers that have used this verse to do exactly the opposite – that is to suppress a group of beings.

I do agree that that social order came into being not out of narrow minded thinking (and even Gandhi has said so after research). What it evolved into is terrible and the current meaning of the word Varna invokes bad feelings. There are some in open forum such as this (in my view) that may just react to the word Caste/Varna and you will be unable to have a reasonable discussion at that point.

We are in a society where the word competition is glorified. We think it is ok for someone to make unthinkable money using their initial advantage. The Ambanis who had holdings in millions now own over 60+ billion dollars in a matter of few years. All that money creates opportunity for power which in turns breeds more money in endless cycle. In another era this norm may seem unacceptable.

In a society guided by Sanathana Dharma the idea of competition-less work force had appeal. Also one competes with oneself for being the best. Since the goal of life was never to feed desires only (Artha and Kama) or a promise of Swarga, it is easy to see why a society may want to organize in terms of the four Varnas. If the goal of life was indeed Moksha – knowledge which is not tied to Karma then one can understand the reason behind the social order that evolved.

One does not have to agree with that order to understand how it could have come about.

This social order evolved into something terrible due to human weakness to hoard power just like the rich uses power and influence to become more rich.

The word Capitalism and Competition is seen by most in Western society synonymous with democracy. One may want to see Michael Moore’s documentary on Capitalism just get an idea that serious damage is possible by the idea of Capitalism. So in another era these concepts may be replaced by something better (I hope).

My point is that Varnasrama did not evolve well – it may have to do with 1000+ years of foreign invasion or not.

The point is that Purusha Suktam , Chapter 18 of Bhagavad Gita do not promote Varnasrama at all.

So if you want to dispel ‘myths’ of Vranasrama , you might consider using other reasons as opposed to profound teachings from Vedas since those teachings do not support the thesis of any social order.

Regards

 

[renuka]

Purusha Suktam

http://youtu.be/mqRNSH-_Hr8

 

[renuka]

To Refresh our memory..

 

[renuka]

» Significance of Purusha Sukta | VEDANTA BHERI

 

[gopaindu]

Madam R.K.,(Sl.No.7 Varnasrama Dharma),
The Paramatma is the community of human beings containing a head, shoulders, torso and lower limbs.Paramatma's each limb has numerous jivatmas and each jivatma is found in a human body which again has the same four limbs with different functions. raja48

 

[renuka]

Madam R.K.,(Sl.No.7 Varnasrama Dharma),
The Paramatma is the community of human beings containing a head, shoulders, torso and lower limbs.Paramatma's each limb has numerous jivatmas and each jivatma is found in a human body which again has the same four limbs with different functions. raja48

Dear Sir,
Thank you for this info.

 

[renuka]

THE INVISIBLE LINK OF LIFE


There once lived a carefree mouse on a farm. She enjoyed her humble life searching for scraps of food and looking after her little home, a tiny hole in the storeroom of a farm house. She was on good terms with all the other animals on the farm, and even had no fear of the farm cat, which was too well fed to bother her!



One day the mouse happened to look through a crack in the farm house wall when she saw the farmer and his wife open a package. "What food might this contain?" she wondered. She was devastated by what she saw. It was a mousetrap!
Retreating to the farmyard where all the other animals resided, the mouse sent out the warning in a shrill cry: "There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!" Strangely there was only silence in return; it did not seem to perturb any of the animals. She was hoping to rouse the others to help her out of this dire situation, but everyone went about their business in cold nonchalance.

After a few seconds of quietness, the rooster clucked, came over, and rather proudly said, “Mrs. Mouse, I can tell this is of grave concern to you, but it is of no consequence to me. Besides, I have my work to do." He, casually and callously, went back to scrapping in the dirt for bugs and making his cries every other minute. A noisy bird indeed!



The mouse now turned to the pig and pleadingly repeated, "There is a mousetrap in the house! Can you help me, please?" The pig sympathised, like most of us do, but said, "I am so very sorry, Mrs. Mouse, but there is nothing I can do about it. Anyway, I am never invited into the house." As if nothing had happened, the pig happily returned to the mud and began to roll away gleefully.

The mouse next turned to the horse and politely said, "There is a mousetrap in the house! You are such a powerful animal. Please do something about it." The horse felt flattered. "Yes, Mrs. Mouse, I am the Master’s blue-eyed boy! But, you know I’m so sorry for you; I do not know what I can do for you. You are in my prayers though."

Three continuous rejections dejected the mouse terribly. She looked at all the other animals and everyone seemed already ready with some excuse or the other. So, the sad mouse returned to the house, completely crestfallen. With no options left, she prepared herself for the worst. She decided to face the farmer's mousetrap – alone!



That very night a thumping sound was heard throughout the house - the sound of a mousetrap snapping shut on its prey. The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught. Since it was pitch dark, she could barely see anything at all. Expecting a mouse to have got caught in the trap, she got to the spot.

And before she knew what was waiting for her, suddenly something bit her. She let out a loud cry. It was a snake that had bitten her! The snake simply retaliated because actually it was its tail which was caught in the mouse trap and the reptile was just as terrified as the farmer’s wife.

The farmer rushed his dear wife to the hospital. She returned home alive, but she was severely sick with fever, terrible headache and body spasms. She became sensitive to sound; every little noise would irritate her to no end. A slight noise increased the pain in her head exponentially. Now, it was the rooster who was at the root of all her problems. By force of habit, it crowed ceaselessly, a million times everyday. The farmer immediately sold the bird away at the market.

The farmer’s wife condition still was pathetic. She kept shivering day and night; slowly her situation became very grave. A doctor in the valley had quite a reputation as a healer using expensive herbal remedies. Determined to save his wife, come what may, the desperate farmer approached this doctor for help. He didn’t have the money, so, he gave his pig to a friend in exchange for much needed cash to pay for the healer’s fees and medicines. Unfortunately, this too did not help. His wife’s condition was only getting worse.

The poor farmer was now rushing to the other doctors from the nearby city. Everyday he travelled on his horse to get these experienced physicians. The poor horse had to make many rushed trips everyday for his tensed master. In the process, not only was the farmer tired but his horse too was totally worn out. Not used to tedious labour, one fine day, it turned lame and finally collapsed. He now only stayed in the stable. The farmer was obviously miffed whenever he would see the horse, idle in his corner. The horse was extremely miserable when the mouse called to offer her sympathies to him.

The tiny mouse watched all these events and felt sad. She only wished that her old friends had been more caring and considerate about her situation. She knew it was a way of life giving them a taste of their own medicine.

Bhagavan Baba tells us that we are all part of society; in fact, every individual is a limb of the society, and society is the limb of God. Therefore, whether we realise it or not, we are inextricably connected in so many ways; we cannot be insensitive to another’s joys or sorrows. We can be happy only if we care for others as much as we are concerned about ourselves. And in essence, it is the message conveyed in every religion and every festival. Bhagavan once beautifully said,

“Man should strive to use every talent and skill given to him not only for his own benefit but also for the good of the world. Man owes everything to society for all that he has received from it.”



- Heart2Heart Team

 

[gopaindu]

Madam Renu,(Ref: Post No.18 Varnasrama Dharma)
Your story has only strengthened the thread. By the way, did you read or hear the stroy? Of course, this question has nothing to do with the discussion. Last but not least, accept my thanks for finding authroity for the thread started by me.raja48

 

[renuka]

Madam Renu,(Ref: Post No.18 Varnasrama Dharma)
Your story has only strengthened the thread. By the way, did you read or hear the stroy? Of course, this question has nothing to do with the discussion. Last but not least, accept my thanks for finding authroity for the thread started by me.raja48

I read get emails from Heart 2 Heart team on daily basis..so when I got it today I felt it was inline with the the thread so I put it here.
So I read it.

Here is the link:Get Inspired: The Invisible Link of Life - January 2009