Moral turpitude of the presentt times

[kunjuppu]

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[Nara]

K,

Funny thing this complaint about moral turpitude of the present times, it seems to creep into most everyone's consciousness at a certain age. My grandfather used to complain about India going to dogs, no honesty, no respect for tradition, total mortal turpitude. I was very young and did not understand what he was talking about.

About the time I was in college, my father started complaining about this moral turpitude. This time I understood a little bit. My father's laments seemed to be directed mainly towards DMK and their ilk, all hooligans talking of atheism. India is going to dogs, he used to say, and still does.

Now, I see a new crop of up and coming seniors following the well worn footsteps of their elders, complaining, India is going to dogs. This time, a new group has been added to usual suspects, our youngsters -- why can't they be morally upright like we and our older generations were? They show no respect, no concern for tradition, always questioning, etc., etc.

Another curious thing about all this is linking morality to sexuality, an uniquely human thing. Sexual interaction between non-human mammals, if occurs in the presence of humans, will bring a great deal of awkwardness to humans, but there is no question of morality reflecting on the character of the animals engaging in the act, or the humans who happen to witness it.

Reproduction through sex among plants occurs all around us and we never even notice it, let alone feel a sense of awkwardness or a sense of moral outrage for all the promiscuity. And then there are species that reproduce asexually. At one time this earth was dominated by life forms that did not have males and females, reproduction happened without sex.

As humans we have developed some norms for social order and well-being and that is good. This norm gets adjusted and fine tuned over time. Sometimes the rules become stricter, and at other times they get relaxed. These changes need not be (a) linked to morality, and (b) looked at with fear that a moral collapse is imminent.

Those who break the prevailing social norms suffer the very real risk of complete ostracization. But, to label them as morally corrupt, or worse, is too harsh. Now, labeling even talking about these matters as "moral turpitude of the present time" is a little extreme, n'est ce pas?

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

nara,

i started this thread, to discuss further, the moral turpitude of old members as observed by swamitabra.

i suspect that swami had among others, yours truly at the top of the list, in his sweeping remark. i am sort of flattered at being so elegantly titled, for what is truly slangly expressed as a 'dirty old man'.

i do hope that i never lose that interest in the various happenings of life and be forever fascinated by the quirky and amorous behavious bordering on the wild side by our fellow humans. for is it not these, that provides the spice of life.

it takes all sorts to make up the world. i, for one, love the variety, and hope that along with it, the turpitudes, moral or otherwise, too thrive.

jai turpitude!

 

[Nara]

...i suspect that swami had among others, yours truly at the top of the list, in his sweeping remark.

Not so fast my friend, adiyen is not far behind if not ahead of you in the list .

Yet, it is a matter of wonder that the menfolk who got to set the rules managed to instill among the women that their self-respect and worth is directly connected to her so called sexual purity. It is the women of the world, particularly of India and much more so of Tamil Nadu, who enforce this prudishness to such an extent that her very morality is connected to it.

To be moral is to be faithful, is to be honest, is to be compassionate, is to be empathetic, is to be loving, etc. Any behavior within these bounds, including sex, is not immoral. Morality has nothing to do with when and with whom one has physical intimacy. This is a canard women world over have been made to internalize.

The original Dasyus or whoever they were, seem to have been less oppressive of their women. Thadakai and Surpanagai surely moved about without a male protector watching over them all the time. At least Surpanagai sought sexual favor without any concern that she would be labeled a slut.

Even the good old Vedic tradition seems less Victorian than the present day Brahminists. It is said Draupati's situation was not just a one-off in those days. The story of Satyakama Jabala illustrates that at least one exalted Brahmin didn't mind having a little company of a young servant main as an one-night stand.

The arc of history always bends towards justice. Therefore, IMO, as history progresses, the moral compass of all societies tend to get straighter, not less. The past, at least the more recent past, in spite of all its imagined glory, suffered an utter lack of moral clarity.

....., and hope that along with it, the turpitudes, moral or otherwise, too thrive.

K, in my profession I get to see a lot of lovely young girls -- come Spring and Summer I see a lot more of them too, if you know what I mean. I love them for all the confidence they show. If a man can't just appreciate a little cleavage without losing control, the problem lies with the man, not the lovely woman. For all the talk about Indian respect for women, it is here in the west where women are more respected, for they are not called morally corrupt for flaunting their assets. Here in the west, at least legally, a woman has the right to withdraw consent even in the act. That is what respect is about.

Cheers!

 

[ShivKC]

K,
About the time I was in college, my father started complaining about this moral turpitude.
Cheers!

a way around thought.

every generation,blames the one before, may be for being extra moral, may be unpalatable for today, and conveniently tags the elders as prisoners of past.

younger's are expected to become hostage of past. so, we open up a quarrel between present and past, and in the middle sacrifice the future and the results are sealed it as fate ..

its all a quarrel between விதி and Mathi.

as per human norms,even monkeys have changed their morals itseems. Once they lived fresh fruits of the tress, and now they prefer to feed on snatched foods from tourists.

a moral turpitude ?

 

[sangom]

I find the main concern here within the large ambit of the term "moral turpitude" is sexual mores and norms. In this respect, I would say that, for historical reasons the majority of indian society has become prudish to some extent. On the one hand we find explicit references to gopī pīna payodhara mardana (one who presses the large-sized breasts of the gopis), mukharati (oral sex), gopikānām kucadvandva kuṃkumāṅkita vakṣasam (having his chest smeared with the kumkum from the pairs of breasts of gopis), etc., etc., and these are all memorized by rote (thanks to tb intellectual genius as some member expressed in another thread) probably without understanding the actual import, or, when confronted, giving some evasive reason to justify these; on the other hand there is a lament about falling moral standards. My question is, if krishna, the avatar of the supreme godhead itself can do these and set examples, then by krishna's own words contained in yadyad ācarati śreṣṭho tattad eva itaro janā:.., other common folks will naturally tend to follow these examples only.

But, I am a bit concerned about the undue fascination for sex among the impressionable youngsters - boys as well as girls - here, which makes them commit grave mistakes and drives them to suicide in the end.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

I find the main concern here within the large ambit of the term "moral turpitude" is sexual mores and norms. In this respect, I would say that, for historical reasons the majority of indian society has become prudish to some extent. On the one hand we find explicit references to gopī pīna payodhara mardana (one who presses the large-sized breasts of the gopis), mukharati (oral sex), gopikānām kucadvandva kuṃkumāṅkita vakṣasam (having his chest smeared with the kumkum from the pairs of breasts of gopis), etc., etc., and these are all memorized by rote (thanks to tb intellectual genius as some member expressed in another thread) probably without understanding the actual import, or, when confronted, giving some evasive reason to justify these; on the other hand there is a lament about falling moral standards. My question is, if krishna, the avatar of the supreme godhead itself can do these and set examples, then by krishna's own words contained in yadyad ācarati śreṣṭho tattad eva itaro janā:.., other common folks will naturally tend to follow these examples only.

But, I am a bit concerned about the undue fascination for sex among the impressionable youngsters - boys as well as girls - here, which makes them commit grave mistakes and drives them to suicide in the end.

I often hear people say that we are too prudish. The prudery of Victorian era is something people often talk about still in the west. What about the Islamic countries?

The idea of getting liberated from prudery is for women to wear skin -hugging clothes, yet expecting males not to make passes, get intimate to males and to have sex only as per their terms.

Soon bedroom acts too could be subjected to judicial review.

Rgds.,

 

[sangom]

First a caveat please. This post is not about the moral turpitudes of the present times; on the contrary it is about moral norms or mores of ancient and medieval India. I am not giving the source and would like readers to guess from where this comes. You are free to even think that it is a product of my imagination. I shall give the citation in the next post.
____________________________________________

Of these beings (bhūtānāṃ) earth is the essence; of the earth, water is the essence; of water the herbs, of herbs the flowers, of flowers the fruits, of fruits the man and, of the man his seed (is the essence).

Because the seed is thus the subtle essence of all beings, what can be its fit container?

prajāpati thought, "Well, let me create a container for it". Thinking thus he created woman. Creating her, he served (upāsta) her lower part. Therefore one should serve the lower part of woman. He created his organ of generation which in hardness resembled a grinding stone (grāvāṇaṃ; grāvan = a stone for pressing out the soma juice; any stone or rock) and urged it towards (the vaginal passage of?) woman and copulated (created) with her.

Here the act of procreation is regarded as equal to the vājapeya sacrifice. prajāpati created his organ of generation which could be lengthened and which, in hardness, resembled the stone used for grinding soma plant for extracting the juice, and urged it towards the vaginal passage of woman (strīvyañjanaṃ) and thus copulated with her.

The organ of generation of woman is the sacrificial altar; the tiny hairs of it are the kuśa grass; the middle part of the vagina is blazing fire and the two thick parts of flesh on both sides (of the vagina) are called muṣka which are the well-known adhiShavana (a contrivance made of leather used for extracting and straining the soma juice). The worlds which a sacrificer of the vājapeya wins are attained through this. He who, knowing thus performs the act of procreation, wins the effects of the good deeds of woman (strīṇām̐ sukṛtaṃ vṛṅkte), and of that man who does not know thus, but does the act of procreation, the good deeds (sukṛtam) are won by woman.

'Her sacrificial altar' etc., are well-known. The middle part of woman's vagina is blazing fire. The two muṣkas (i.e., the thick portion of flesh on both sides of the vagina) are the planks (or contrivance of leather) used to extract and strain the soma juice, well-known by the name adhiṣavaṇa. ... The worlds which a performer of the vājapeya sacrifice wins are attained as results by the knower of the act of procreation. Thus is the above act eulogized. Therefore there is nothing loathsome (bībhatsa) in it.

He who knowing thus performs the act of procreation attracts to himself the effect of the good deeds woman and in the case of that ignorant man who does not know the method that yields a result of the वाजपेय sacrifice, and who resorts to sexual intercourse without knowing the semen virile as being capable of giving the maximum happiness, his good deeds are won by the woman.

 

[C RAVI]

I find the main concern here within the large ambit of the term "moral turpitude" is sexual mores and norms. In this respect, I would say that, for historical reasons the majority of indian society has become prudish to some extent. On the one hand we find explicit references to gopī pīna payodhara mardana (one who presses the large-sized breasts of the gopis), mukharati (oral sex), gopikānām kucadvandva kuṃkumāṅkita vakṣasam (having his chest smeared with the kumkum from the pairs of breasts of gopis), etc., etc., and these are all memorized by rote (thanks to tb intellectual genius as some member expressed in another thread) probably without understanding the actual import, or, when confronted, giving some evasive reason to justify these; on the other hand there is a lament about falling moral standards. My question is, if krishna, the avatar of the supreme godhead itself can do these and set examples, then by krishna's own words contained in yadyad ācarati śreṣṭho tattad eva itaro janā:.., other common folks will naturally tend to follow these examples only.

But, I am a bit concerned about the undue fascination for sex among the impressionable youngsters - boys as well as girls - here, which makes them commit grave mistakes and drives them to suicide in the end.

Sri Sangom,

I can understand your concerns. Citation of Krihna leela is the clear output of your thoughts towards relating sexual behavior of present generation girls and boys.

Just want to share with you something that is striking to me.

If sexuality and virginity has nothing to do with morality of human species and has nothing to do with psychological disturbances, I don't think suicidal attempts can be related to social norms.

If abortions are carried out in the society without objections, if safe sex methods are adopted by all boys & girls to avoid HIV infection and if they were been educated well to consider sexual activities as normal course of day to day activities, to not to be burdened with guilt consciousness, sex need not be considered as grave mistake, driving them towards committing suicide.

In that case marriageable guys & girls need to get away with the fixated ideas of valuing their virginity and that of their future spouse. Also there should not be any sense of guilt for oneself and rift between the spouses related to extra marital affairs. This can pave way towards fulfilling verities as spices of life, for all on this Earth.

If all these happens in our society, I think we can have a healthy progressive society & happy family, leaving behind all craps related to sexual fulfillment.

IMO, the suicidal attempts among today's youngsters are due to laboratory results proving HIV+.

My above statements are considering sexual relationship between folks with mutual consent.

I need to indicate here with out fail that, my write up above are only to contemplate on the subject of sex and sex related human psychology. Nothing to do with supporting or objecting any sort of ideas & my personal considerations pertaining to this subject matter.

 

[Nara]

....
Because the seed is thus the subtle essence of all beings, what can be its fit container?

All this sounds very much like immutable truths, not authored by mere purusha. Is this from Rg Veda? Must be one of the Vedas for sure!

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

All this sounds very much like immutable truths, not authored by mere purusha. Is this from Rg Veda? Must be one of the Vedas for sure!

Cheers!

This is bṛhadāraṇyakopaniṣad, adhyāya - 6, brāhmaṇa -4. The lines in black are English translation of the upanishad by (Late) Shri V.V. Panoli and those in blue are the translations (by the same person) of Adisankara's bhashya on the said upanishad.

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangom,

I can understand your concerns. Citation of Krihna leela is the clear output of your thoughts towards relating sexual behavior of present generation girls and boys.

Just want to share with you something that is striking to me.

If sexuality and virginity has nothing to do with morality of human species and has nothing to do with psychological disturbances, I don't think suicidal attempts can be related to social norms.

Dear Shri Ravi,

I don't get your idea clearly. It is my view that virginity is a norm created by society, especially the male-dominated one; sexuality, however, is natural and inborn in every human being (since we are considering humans only at present here). Suicidal attempts/suicides happen when youngsters in their impressionable age, get into some sexual proximity which later develop into situations/evidences with which blackmail starts or becomes possible; not being able to face parents/guardians, as well as the society which will never accept these youngsters (more particularly, the girls), they are driven to suicide.

If abortions are carried out in the society without objections, if safe sex methods are adopted by all boys & girls to avoid HIV infection and if they were been educated well to consider sexual activities as normal course of day to day activities, to not to be burdened with guilt consciousness, sex need not be considered as grave mistake, driving them towards committing suicide.
...IMO, the suicidal attempts among today's youngsters are due to laboratory results proving HIV+.

As I said above, HIV is, perhaps, not a deciding factor in all cases of suicides; but this could also be one, a minor one. Illegal pregnancy is, I think, not a problem at all today and even conservative parents may not mind their daughters to undergo this - of course, secretly - and escape from any and all embarrassment.

In that case marriageable guys & girls need to get away with the fixated ideas of valuing their virginity and that of their future spouse. Also there should not be any sense of guilt for oneself and rift between the spouses related to extra marital affairs. This can pave way towards fulfilling verities as spices of life, for all on this Earth.

I am somewhat sure that this is now happening in a rapid way particularly among the high-income youngsters. The supreme court also has given its seal of approval to the "living in" system, though I am not aware of the details and what SC says about the offsprings of such unions. My talk with some unmarried youngsters (mostly tambrams) also gives me the impression that they are not bothered about virginity, and all that they require is that both should be faithful to each other till they separate by divorce or mutual agreement, etc.

If all these happens in our society, I think we can have a healthy progressive society & happy family, leaving behind all craps related to sexual fulfillment.

Depends on what you mean by "sexual fulfilment"; the word 'fulfilment' means "the act of consummating something (a desire or promise etc)" and also "a feeling of satisfaction at having achieved your desires". As you will probably be aware most of the males - because of the way Nature has made the species - will get sexual fulfilment most of the time; but with women, it is not always so. This itself has now become a vast subject and so the less i say, the better.

My above statements are considering sexual relationship between folks with mutual consent.

I need to indicate here with out fail that, my write up above are only to contemplate on the subject of sex and sex related human psychology. Nothing to do with supporting or objecting any sort of ideas & my personal considerations pertaining to this subject matter.

Apply to my writings too, let me hasten to add.

 

[suraju06]

Sex, like many other needs like food, water, shelter is a physical need. Ofcourse there is a subtle difference in that the urge for sex can manifest as an all consuming passion due to the action of harmones which are not in the control of the individual. But then there are certain societal norms for behavior when one is in the grip of these needs. Depending how much deprived one is, the behavior of the individual varies. If we admit that sex is a natural behavior, the society says it is a natural behavior subject to some conditions. If satisfaction of hunger is a natural behavior, society has set some conditions here also. If an old man keeps leering and ogling at a young female and if the concerned female thinks it is indecent behavior, it is indeed indecent. The society does not approve of such behavior though the individual may think that it is his harmones and so his behavior which is natural. Similarly when you steal another man's meal the society considers it as improper. We live in this world accepting these societal norms. If every one is to disregard these norms then we will have chaos and it will be a jungle. The moral turpitude that is talked about has something to do with these violations of norms set by the society of yester years.

As for the upanishadic and other religious literature which are explicit with sexual descriptions, I believe it was written at a time when society was more concerned with the spirit of its norms than it's statement. Here we are attempting to look at the statements, finds the word to word meaning of these statements and look at them through the tinted glass of todays times.When you deal with a question about the process of procreation, how else do you explain it? you have to tell what are the human organs involved and how the process is carried out to get the result. May be it is titillating/repulsive(depending on your mindset at the time of reading it) now to read it. Does it really matter?

Now in this forum in another thread someone had quoted extensively from the நாச்சியார் திருமொழி, a vaishnavite literature to show that the author of that grtantha had gone explicit about sexual matters. I had raised a counter point to it saying that in the quest for Saayujyam by an Atman the sexual act is the nearest for comparison. The pain of missing the sayujyam with the Paramaatman is described beautifully in those verses by using the nearer experience of sex. So we can quote many lines from the Vedas, upanisheds, prabhandams etc to deride the wisdom of our ancestors. But then we are missing only what they really meant.

 

[sravna]

Shri Raju's perspective is a very wise one and it is in that spirit the utterances in the upanishads etc. should be understood. Though nowadays as Shri. Raju mentions, we look at the ancient works with our very shallow perspective of what is moral and no doubt our ancient works which are deep in import appear in the same way as say, a present day sex thriller.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

If every one is to disregard these norms then we will have chaos and it will be a jungle. The moral turpitude that is talked about has something to do with these violations of norms set by the society of yester years.

Some years back, I read a news report that wives of sailors in British Royal Navy opposed long voyages for female sailors as they feared that their spouses could be led astray. In the defence forces, if a unmarried female soldier is to be found pregnant, she can be removed on the grounds of moral turpitude.

A female colleague of my father, who served as a Russian translator in the Indian Navy quit the job in Navy, as she found that environment "not comfortable" for females.

Whether we like it or not, bulk of burden of morality falls on females -- blame it on their anatomy and reproductive physiology.

In fact it was to Devadasis, a special status was accorded in our society. The British imposed their Christian morals and branded them prostitutes; we Indians just acquiesced.

 

[happyhindu]

On one historian's blog (now no longer available), I had read about how the devadasi system originated.

Apparently in matrilineal societies, pre-pubescent girls used to be dedicated as female priests (that is, priestesses).

This used to be common amongst Shaktas, to be more specific, and in temples of Kali, Durga, etc.

These priestesses used to function exactly like male priests. That is, they used to be in charge of all temple rituals and sometimes, they functioned alongside the male priests.

In Kerala society today, we can still see a remnant of it in some theeyams where the male priest wears a breastplate in which female type breasts are carved. That is to say, he becomes a female for the dance ritual.

Apparently in Bengal and eastern parts where Shaktaism used to thrive, female priests used to be common in the past.

There were 2 periods in time when these female priests were converted into devadasis. One was when Buddhism become popular. And the second time was in the post-Shankara period when changes began taking place in worship mores and practices.

During both those times, males began taking over temples and converted the priestesses into devadasis.

It seems the job of doing abhishekham and alankaram for Devi idols was only done by female priestesses in the past. When males became priests of these temples, the practice of draping a small cloth to cover the 'private part' of the idol while doing abhishekham originated in some temples.

 

[Nara]

....Whether we like it or not, bulk of burden of morality falls on females -- blame it on their anatomy and reproductive physiology.

We may even find a lot of women agreeing with the above statement as this is drilled into all of us from the time we gain consciousness. Under this theory, originated by Manu himself, women are by nature seductresses, so much so, one must not be alone even with one's own mother or sisters.

Those who subscribe to this theory advocate, in order to foster an orderly society, women need to cover up, lest the energetic men lose control and moral turpitude abound. Cover your hair, they say, your beautiful hair send men into a tizzy. No, no, that is not enough, cover your head and neck as well, they are so seducing. Even that is not enough for few others, they put them in a bee-keeper suit covering head to toe. Yes, these are not part of our tradition, it is those ugly others who do all that to their women, but, it is borne out of the same line of thinking -- women must shoulder bulk of the burden for maintaining the morals of a society, because they have uterus, not testes.

IMO, it is downright immoral to link "morality" to woman's anatomy. Morality has nothing to do with procreation or acts that have the potential to result in procreation. To be moral is to be kind, honest, courageous, loving, etc. Moral turpitude will result when these qualities are compromised, not when a uterus gets occupied outside matrimony.

In fact it was to Devadasis, a special status was accorded in our society. The British imposed their Christian morals and branded them prostitutes; we Indians just acquiesced.

Well, I guess nobody thought to ask the Devadasis what they want. These servants of god often show lot more moral courage and rectitude than those who bid for the right of first entry into the vessel of "morality" they hold in their body.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

...
These priestesses used to function exactly like male priests. That is, they used to be in charge of all temple rituals and sometimes, they functioned alongside the male priests.

In Kerala society today, we can still see a remnant of it in some theeyams where the male priest wears a breastplate in which female type breasts are carved. That is to say, he becomes a female for the dance ritual.

Smt. HH,

The "theyyams" are actually "deivams", the corrupted word in the parlance of the hill tribes/adivasis. There are many 'theyyams', but not just as many as higher castes have - viz., 33 crores! Just a bit of loud thinking!

The female 'theyyams' wear the breast-plates or some make up to show breasts as the visible symbol of femininity. Some more info. on theyyam is here. Interestingly one finds the maneeshaapanchakam incident enacted in "poTTan theyyam"!! Can it be that the incident happened in Kerala and was "polished" by Sankara's hagiographers with a good enough verse also composed in order to buttress their version?

 

[ShivKC]

for his daughter,Obama's prayer: 'Lord, have that skirt get longer'. his wife is also included in this.

Obama's prayer: 'Lord, have that skirt get longer' - The Times of India

 

[happyhindu]

for his daughter,Obama's prayer: 'Lord, have that skirt get longer'. his wife is also included in this.

Obama's prayer: 'Lord, have that skirt get longer' - The Times of India

Am not sure anyone is interested in discussing the moral turpitude of the chrisitian world here. There are enuf websites with details on how the bible permits rape, murder, slavery, sex-trade, incest...

There are also enuf websites on how ridiculous the inquisitions were; and how 'christian' ideas were imposed on the natives of various countries.

Even educated tribals in india today are aware how much stupidity the religion tried to or tries to propagate, including the former idea that the earth was the centre of the universe. Atleast the vedas got their facts right in such matters.

 

[happyhindu]

Smt. HH,

The "theyyams" are actually "deivams", the corrupted word in the parlance of the hill tribes/adivasis. There are many 'theyyams', but not just as many as higher castes have - viz., 33 crores! Just a bit of loud thinking!

The female 'theyyams' wear the breast-plates or some make up to show breasts as the visible symbol of femininity. Some more info. on theyyam is here. Interestingly one finds the maneeshaapanchakam incident enacted in "poTTan theyyam"!! Can it be that the incident happened in Kerala and was "polished" by Sankara's hagiographers with a good enough verse also composed in order to buttress their version?

Thanks for the link sir. After reading the link you gave, also read on poTTan theyyam from other websites. These two contain some more details: Pottan Theyyam ritual art form of Malabar makes us turn into and behind | ScrollIndia and Theyyam – The Dravidian Resistance « The Great Indian Mutiny

Sir it does look like the episode between Shankara and the untouchable took place in Kerala not Kasi. And perhaps the incident got 'polished' and described in an other way by Sankara's hagiographers.

In telugu the word "deyyam" exists (perhaps it is a regional pronunciation of "theyyam"). But the term deyyam in telugu means "demon". It is not related to "Deivam". (Or perhaps the deyyams were the old gods before the deivams became popular).

I feel Kerala and Srilanka are so similar in this aspect. In Srilanka a clear difference used to exist between

(a) those who changed masks, beat the yak-bera and did many rituals to appease the demons (these did not have idols in the past just like the Palliyaras); and

(b) the deviyas / devaralas / kapuralas, who man devalayams or temples with idols; and also propitiate spirits (but of the kind which inflicts lesser damage if not appeased).

But over time, this difference has been lost. IMO the difference became lost after the devarala culture 'took over' the palliyara culture. So these days the devaralas / kapuralas enact the theyyam dance rituals. Am curious to know if a similar situation may have happened in Kerala.

Am thinking the culture of Theyyams, Palliyara, Kaavu, etc must be pre-dravidian. Been reading about various Nair sub-sects and how closely they were associated with the Kaavus...very interesting indeed....

Sir, am sort of wondering these days why do we pray. Praying was / is so intrinsic to humans. What makes us look to the 'supernatural' ? What are your views on this sir.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

Thanks for the link sir. After reading the link you gave, also read on poTTan theyyam from other websites. These two contain some more details: Pottan Theyyam ritual art form of Malabar makes us turn into and behind | ScrollIndia and Theyyam – The Dravidian Resistance « The Great Indian Mutiny

Sir it does look like the episode between Shankara and the untouchable took place in Kerala not Kasi. And perhaps the incident got 'polished' and described in an other way by Sankara's hagiographers.

Smt. HH,

The links are quite informative. You will find that the present day theyyams is a mix of both the "negative" powered entities you once referred to in the context of ancient Tamil culture (low castes doing special worship which added to the strength/might of the rulers, etc.) and the deities of aryan origin like bhagavathy killing some demon.

As for Pottan theyyam incident, I feel the low castes of kerala would not have had access to the story unless it had actually happened in kerala itself. The alankaran pulayan incident/myth enforces my doubt.

In telugu the word "deyyam" exists (perhaps it is a regional pronunciation of "theyyam"). But the term deyyam in telugu means "demon". It is not related to "Deivam". (Or perhaps the deyyams were the old gods before the deivams became popular).

I feel Kerala and Srilanka are so similar in this aspect. In Srilanka a clear difference used to exist between

(a) those who changed masks, beat the yak-bera and did many rituals to appease the demons (these did not have idols in the past just like the Palliyaras); and

(b) the deviyas / devaralas / kapuralas, who man devalayams or temples with idols; and also propitiate spirits (but of the kind which inflicts lesser damage if not appeased).

But over time, this difference has been lost. IMO the difference became lost after the devarala culture 'took over' the palliyara culture. So these days the devaralas / kapuralas enact the theyyam dance rituals. Am curious to know if a similar situation may have happened in Kerala.

Am thinking the culture of Theyyams, Palliyara, Kaavu, etc must be pre-dravidian. Been reading about various Nair sub-sects and how closely they were associated with the Kaavus...very interesting indeed....

Yes, we have remnants of ancient, what shall I say, non-sanaatana dharma, gods still lurking in the fringes of mainstream hinduism. I feel it is more because of the local people's inability to completely wipe out their original culture/s and embrace the SD out and out. Hence irrespective of whether there was an Aryan "invasion" or not, there definitely was an imposition of an alien religious culture.

Sir, am sort of wondering these days why do we pray. Praying was / is so intrinsic to humans. What makes us look to the 'supernatural' ? What are your views on this sir.

Regards.

Religion as well as philosophy, in the sense of the rational investigation of questions about existence and knowledge and ethics, laced with religion are opiates of the human mind (who said something like this? Marx?). Inputs of religion right from infancy makes all of us believe in a supernatural power. But the real reason for that is the mysterious "thing" called "LIFE" which just does not come within the grasp of humans. It just happens to come - from where, we don't know, and equally mysteriously vanishes at another moment. During the interval between these two points of time, this "LIFE" plays a lot of dramas with/through the agency of the living beings including the human beings. This everlasting mystery, man feels, affords some special place for him in the whole scheme of things, which may not be true, after all.

Man feels he can control this mystery, even if he is ignorant of it, by making various postulates. In the most primitive societies, he feared many things and worshipped them and tried to please them by whatever satisfied him too. This has been the basic rule of religion and much of philosophical thought; viz., god is like Man. Human mind/intellect seems unable to get out of this anthropomorphic fixation.

"Prayer" is a manifestation of the weakness of human mind especially in times of troubles. Organized religions have a vested interest in perpetuating this weakness as much as they can. IMHO "prayers" have very little use; the most important is to follow the right path, as Buddha said. Sadly, the buddhist religion has also been "highjacked" by ritualists and Mahayana buddhism is only a shade different from any other religion.

Hence, my considered view is that all people would better introspect and correct themselves to follow the right path and conduct, rather than spend time in prayers. God, in my view, cannot be one to be swayed by prayers, intervention by priests, offerings etc. God is "ṛtam" or "dharma" and no one can violate it and then curry favour later on.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Those who subscribe to this theory advocate, in order to foster an orderly society, women need to cover up, lest the energetic men lose control and moral turpitude abound. Cover your hair, they say, your beautiful hair send men into a tizzy. No, no, that is not enough, cover your head and neck as well, they are so seducing. Even that is not enough for few others, they put them in a bee-keeper suit covering head to toe. Yes, these are not part of our tradition, it is those ugly others who do all that to their women, but, it is borne out of the same line of thinking -- women must shoulder bulk of the burden for maintaining the morals of a society, because they have uterus, not testes.

A female employee in a bank at New York was reportedly fired for wearing skimpy dresses despite several warnings. The action followed a complaint by her co-employees that they get distracted at work by undue exposure of many parts of her body.

This in a land known to be liberal, particularly in matters of personal choice of dress.

Regards,

 

[C RAVI]

A female employee in a bank at New York was reportedly fired for wearing skimpy dresses despite several warnings. The action followed a complaint by her co-employees that they get distracted at work by undue exposure of many parts of her body.

This in a land known to be liberal, particularly in matters of personal choice of dress.

Regards,

Sri SwamiTabra,

As you have rightly indicated a report, humans can never be expected to be like programed robot, over ruling nature's rule. All kinds of human feelings and emotions are not standardized at all given circumstances.

That is the only reason, we give importance to uphold morality, ethics, humility, humanity, consciousness towards right deeds, right attitude and wisdom to be reasonably influenced by our own feelings and emotions.

Male and Female are the two great forces of the human species, having their own influence over each other. The responsibilities of respecting and taking care of each other are vested upon both Males & Females and that is what any civilized society vouch for.

Understanding the nature's rule, valuing and respecting the opposite gender, bearing one's own responsibilities..etc, need to be instilled in the minds of the children, by parents. Unless an individual develops and retains moral goodness with his/her leanings and wisdom, one may fail to be a right parent. Though the society influences a person's characteristics, he/she can rest be assured to have a clutch before deciding/accepting to change over. And having done towards or against the change, he/she would bear the fruits accordingly.

Law actions against any genuinely proved complaint on a woman who indulged in seducing a man and attempted to involve in force sex some way. Though such are the rare cases, if proved, law works towards justice in the same order, as it works towards upholding justice, convicting men for their crime.

 

[sangom]

...
Law actions against any genuinely proved complaint on a woman who indulged in seducing a man and attempted to involve in force sex some way. Though such are the rare cases, if proved, law works towards justice in the same order, as it works towards upholding justice, convicting men for their crime.

Shri Ravi,

I do not think there is any such law in India. Am I right?