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No sense of history?

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Naina_Marbus

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KURUKSHETRA): Considered to be more than 5,000 years old, a banyan tree at Jyotisar near Kurukshetra in Haryana is reportedly the only remaining relic from the time of the Mahabharata. Now, a tussle between the two claimants over the holy place on a puerile issue has left the tree completely-neglected putting it on the verge of extinction.

Times of India reports that the area surrounding the tree has been covered with marble pavement and it can't draw nutrients for its growth. Fancy lights and lamps are fitted with nails on the tree for lighting during night and big bells are tied allover it. The 'holy thread' tied by the visitors has covered most of the lower branches. Tying threads is considered to be wish-fulfilling. Sadly, chunks of branches were also chopped off recently by the caretakers without any expert advice.

The two stakeholders—Hindu Mission, a local religious body that has been taking care of the tree for years and the Kurukshetra Development Board (KDB)—are sparring over the ownership of the space where the tree is located.
banyantree
 
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Jyotisar is a town on the Kurukshetra-Pehowa road, 5 km west of Thanesar in the Kurukshetra district of Haryana. 'Jyoti' means light and 'Sar' means the core meaning. Hence the name of place is a reference to the 'core meaning of light' or ultimately of God.

It is a ISKCON Desire Tree. Anything ISKCON is associated with is suspect. There is absolutely no antiquity or authenticity to the claim of this tree being the tree from Bhagvat Gita time.

Before we go crazy on every thing that is claimed as authentic, prove that your are sane and scientific.
 

No comments!! Photos from Google images.
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3b1020e.jpg
 
If science gives proof that the tree is 5,000 yrs old, then the tree becomes venerable, Mahabharatha or not.



Yes, it is that simple.
Thanks Iyya.
Click to expand...

Dear Prasad,

It may not be as simple as that. I look at it differently. Here is my case:

1.Suppose science proves that the tree is 5000 years old, still people would need to prove that it(that particular tree) was indeed a witness to the teaching of Bhagavad Geeta. How are we going to prove this?

2. Thus there is no way to prove the "antiquity or authenticity" of the Banyan tree's com-presence when Sri Krishna taught BG to Arjun.

3. What matters is the faith and belief of people. If people hold that tree to be holy, it is indeed holy. If there is a belief that it was witness to the teaching of BG it was indeed so. Most of philosophy and belief is beyond empirical scrutiny. For that reason alone they do not become irrelevant.

4. If science and whys and hows are the ultimate arbitrators, most of religion and beliefs will end up as trash. By that we would have trashed something very breath takingly beautiful and mystique. I don't think any sane person would like that to happen.

Cheers.
 
Science can find out. We just don't know if the Indian science establishment ever cared about it. Researchers in Sweden have found a living tree which is 9550 years old.
9500years old tree

Any way, Sri Raju has made a valid point above.
 
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suraju06 said:
If science gives proof that the tree is 5,000 yrs old, then the tree becomes venerable, Mahabharatha or not.





Dear Prasad,

It may not be as simple as that. I look at it differently. Here is my case:

1.Suppose science proves that the tree is 5000 years old, still people would need to prove that it(that particular tree) was indeed a witness to the teaching of Bhagavad Geeta. How are we going to prove this?

2. Thus there is no way to prove the "antiquity or authenticity" of the Banyan tree's com-presence when Sri Krishna taught BG to Arjun.

3. What matters is the faith and belief of people. If people hold that tree to be holy, it is indeed holy. If there is a belief that it was witness to the teaching of BG it was indeed so. Most of philosophy and belief is beyond empirical scrutiny. For that reason alone they do not become irrelevant.

4. If science and whys and hows are the ultimate arbitrators, most of religion and beliefs will end up as trash. By that we would have trashed something very breath takingly beautiful and mystique. I don't think any sane person would like that to happen.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Mr. Raju,
Have you seen the plight of Ellora caves? A true piece of antiquity, is in neglect, here we are crying for a Tree. If you want public money, then it has to be prioritized. Not everybody's "faith" can be saved by public funds. You want to save a tree, and the tree is funding your pocket or vision please do save it, but do not cry for public fund.
I am sorry you do not see that logic.
 
Dear Prasad,

Mr. Raju,
Have you seen the plight of Ellora caves? A true piece of antiquity, is in neglect, here we are crying for a Tree. If you want public money, then it has to be prioritized. Not everybody's "faith" can be saved by public funds. You want to save a tree, and the tree is funding your pocket or vision please do save it, but do not cry for public fund.
I am sorry you do not see that logic.
Click to expand...

I have seen Ellora caves and they are indeed in neglect. Here we are not crying for just a tree. We are crying for a tree which has a special place in the minds of faithfuls. There is no mention of public money anywhere in the post. Nor is it mentioned in the TOI (the original link provided here). The dispute between the two organizations for control of the tree does not appear to be after money. They are rather about who will own it or control it. So no one cries for public fund. Generally "faith" does not depend on money for its survival. Please read the original post again.

Cheers.
 
In India there is an ingenious practice to construct or raise an unauthorised structure and the fellow who did it will slyly report this to the concerned authority so that he can order its demolition. Repeat this process, and lo, the structure has made history to continue to remain with aplomb. Whoever succeeds in taking command of the tree is sure to make money. Here in this case the tree deserves attention and can throw some scientific facts.
 
prasad1 said:
Jyotisar is a town on the Kurukshetra-Pehowa road, 5 km west of Thanesar in the Kurukshetra district of Haryana. 'Jyoti' means light and 'Sar' means the core meaning. Hence the name of place is a reference to the 'core meaning of light' or ultimately of God.

It is a ISKCON Desire Tree. Anything ISKCON is associated with is suspect. There is absolutely no antiquity or authenticity to the claim of this tree being the tree from Bhagvat Gita time.

Before we go crazy on every thing that is claimed as authentic, prove that your are sane and scientific.
Click to expand...
Is Jyotisar is known as Jaitsar. Jaitsar is an important place in the serial "Balika Vadhu". Or perhaps, is twisted in fiction?
 
suraju06 said:
Dear Prasad,



I have seen Ellora caves and they are indeed in neglect. Here we are not crying for just a tree. We are crying for a tree which has a special place in the minds of faithfuls. There is no mention of public money anywhere in the post. Nor is it mentioned in the TOI (the original link provided here). The dispute between the two organizations for control of the tree does not appear to be after money. They are rather about who will own it or control it. So no one cries for public fund. Generally "faith" does not depend on money for its survival. Please read the original post again.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

In case you missed it see the picture Rajiji posted. Hundi is displayed prominently. I am sure there is dispute on the land as well. Mysteriously a Ganesh or a musjid crops on Government land and it becomes a disputed land. You can not have shreddha or faith that is illegal to begin with.
I was not born yesterday or that gullible to accept that faith is the prime motive without monetary interest. The people who have faith without monetary interest are sitting in Himalayas and praying, not sitting on a cross road and making money.
 
india_1554697c.webp
By Pratap Chakravarty, for AFP in New Delhi12:31PM GMT 07 Jan 2010
India acts to end illegal temple building on public land
Pradeep Fuloriya points at the track marks showing where, five years ago, a bulldozer nearly succeeded in flattening the Hindu shrine for which he cares.
"It could move no farther," the 27-year-old priest boasted as he recalled how crowds of devotees forced the machine to retreat from the Shiv Shakti Mochan Temple in Delhi.
The illegally built shrine, constructed in 1968 around a banyan tree, was meant to be demolished on official orders but after the protests it was allowed to remain, as long as it did not encroach on any more public space.
"The temple is expanding along with the tree's growth. We can't help that," said Fuloriya says the temple dedicated to lord Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction.
Municipal bulldozers returned in July after a canopy was used to extend the temple, in what the authorities saw as another defiant act of encroachment.
Once again devotees braved police water cannon to send the wreckers packing. "It's God's wish that the temple is safe and sound," Fuloriya says.
The row over the temple exemplifies many disputes in India over the use of public land for religious sites.

"Criminals, the land mafia and anti-social elements exploit religious sentiments of the people to grab public land through the construction of such places of worship," according to a petition to the court by the government.
"A large chunk of land thus remains under illegal occupation."

"Putting up two stones or occupying a piece of land in the name of religion is a blatant crime and it must halt because such land belongs to all citizens and not just some groups and sects,"
 
suraju06 said:
If science gives proof that the tree is 5,000 yrs old, then the tree becomes venerable, Mahabharatha or not.

Dear Prasad,

It may not be as simple as that. I look at it differently. Here is my case:

1.Suppose science proves that the tree is 5000 years old, still people would need to prove that it(that particular tree) was indeed a witness to the teaching of Bhagavad Geeta. How are we going to prove this?

2. Thus there is no way to prove the "antiquity or authenticity" of the Banyan tree's com-presence when Sri Krishna taught BG to Arjun.

3. What matters is the faith and belief of people. If people hold that tree to be holy, it is indeed holy. If there is a belief that it was witness to the teaching of BG it was indeed so. Most of philosophy and belief is beyond empirical scrutiny. For that reason alone they do not become irrelevant.

4. If science and whys and hows are the ultimate arbitrators, most of religion and beliefs will end up as trash. By that we would have trashed something very breath takingly beautiful and mystique. I don't think any sane person would like that to happen.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

dear raju !
we can try to prove whatever possible and need not bother to prove each and every thing.
cheers,
guruvayurappan
 
prasad1 said:
View attachment 1770
By Pratap Chakravarty, for AFP in New Delhi12:31PM GMT 07 Jan 2010
India acts to end illegal temple building on public land
Pradeep Fuloriya points at the track marks showing where, five years ago, a bulldozer nearly succeeded in flattening the Hindu shrine for which he cares.
"It could move no farther," the 27-year-old priest boasted as he recalled how crowds of devotees forced the machine to retreat from the Shiv Shakti Mochan Temple in Delhi.
The illegally built shrine, constructed in 1968 around a banyan tree, was meant to be demolished on official orders but after the protests it was allowed to remain, as long as it did not encroach on any more public space.
"The temple is expanding along with the tree's growth. We can't help that," said Fuloriya says the temple dedicated to lord Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction.
Municipal bulldozers returned in July after a canopy was used to extend the temple, in what the authorities saw as another defiant act of encroachment.
Once again devotees braved police water cannon to send the wreckers packing. "It's God's wish that the temple is safe and sound," Fuloriya says.
The row over the temple exemplifies many disputes in India over the use of public land for religious sites.

"Criminals, the land mafia and anti-social elements exploit religious sentiments of the people to grab public land through the construction of such places of worship," according to a petition to the court by the government.
"A large chunk of land thus remains under illegal occupation."

"Putting up two stones or occupying a piece of land in the name of religion is a blatant crime and it must halt because such land belongs to all citizens and not just some groups and sects,"
Click to expand...
dear prasad ji !
the same situation was prevailed in TRICHY also. the road behind Gandhi statue near teppakulam post office and road leading to super bazar could not be expanded cos of samathi like structure of minority religion and recently they have been removed . like wise so many way side temples build adjacent to big trees are also removed . if the administration act without the interference of vested interest ,any thing is possible. see the action in Renganathan street and the uncertainty in further action in Chennai.
guruvayurappan
 
Dear Prasad,

In case you missed it see the picture Rajiji posted. Hundi is displayed prominently. I am sure there is dispute on the land as well. Mysteriously a Ganesh or a musjid crops on[FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Government [/FONT][FONT=inherit !important]land[/FONT][/FONT] and it becomes a disputed land. You can not have shreddha or faith that is illegal to begin with.
I was not born yesterday or that gullible to accept that faith is the prime motive without monetary interest. The people who have faith without monetary interest are sitting in Himalayas and praying, not sitting on a cross road and making money.
Click to expand...

I too noticed in the photo the hundi kept there. But it did not strike me the way it struck you. It did not occur to me as if there was a cry for public funds. I have seen many such hundis in various temples and they never looked like representing a cry in greed for public funds. "If you want to donate, Please do that" is the message I get and as far as I know donation is a purely voluntary act. I too am of the view that a temple or a mosque or any other religious structure can be demolished by the Government if there is a higher need to build something else in that place which will benefit the society at large. But to say that a structure built on poramboke land has no reason to exist is taking the issue too lightly. I hope you appreciate the difference. I recently organized the samprokshanam of a temple of Sri Krishna in my village deep south. I painstakingly gathered info about the people from my village who have gone and settled in various towns of India and abroad and made an appeal to them to join with me in the repairs and samprokshanam. Many of them contributed to the project. I was trusted by them (they were not at all gullible) and I completed the project and samprokshanam was celebrated. What is the prime motive here according to you? Is it faith or monetary interest? I am certainly not sitting in Himalayas. I am a businessman sitting here in Chennai (of course I do Thiruvaaraadhanam every day) and I was prepared to complete the project irrespective of whether people participated or not. Your views about faith and monetary interest need a revision. And all the temples we visit to day are built on land which once belonged to the "people".

Cheers.
 
suraju06 said:
Dear Prasad,



I too noticed in the photo the hundi kept there. But it did not strike me the way it struck you. It did not occur to me as if there was a cry for public funds. I have seen many such hundis in various temples and they never looked like representing a cry in greed for public funds. "If you want to donate, Please do that" is the message I get and as far as I know donation is a purely voluntary act. I too am of the view that a temple or a mosque or any other religious structure can be demolished by the Government if there is a higher need to build something else in that place which will benefit the society at large. But to say that a structure built on poramboke land has no reason to exist is taking the issue too lightly. I hope you appreciate the difference. I recently organized the samprokshanam of a temple of Sri Krishna in my village deep south. I painstakingly gathered info about the people from my village who have gone and settled in various towns of India and abroad and made an appeal to them to join with me in the repairs and samprokshanam. Many of them contributed to the project. I was trusted by them (they were not at all gullible) and I completed the project and samprokshanam was celebrated. What is the prime motive here according to you? Is it faith or monetary interest? I am certainly not sitting in Himalayas. I am a businessman sitting here in Chennai (of course I do Thiruvaaraadhanam every day) and I was prepared to complete the project irrespective of whether people participated or not. Your views about faith and monetary interest need a revision. And all the temples we visit to day are built on land which once belonged to the "people".

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Mr. Raju,
It is not you or Me here. I to have helped build temple here and in Chennai. That too was as you say based on faith and greater good. But are you sating that you and I are the typical, or exception to the rule.
It is very difficult to argue when you make it a personal issue.
We were on the same side when we were fighting for the cause of Hindus or Brahmins against the so called radicals. There is no need to fight on this issue either.
You have to admit that your kind of service is not typical. You did a nishkama serva, not everyone does it, so please do not hold you or your action as an example.

Mr. Raju you are a businessman, I assume you do not cheat on your IT. So can you say that no businessman cheats on hid IT in India? Similarly you raised funds for honest goal, can you generalize on that basis.
 
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