On hope and sundakkais

[kunjuppu]

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i came across this issue of the outlook by accident. in it there are vignettes of modern india. i have given the url of each short story and a very short summary.

here is about brahmins of a small village in U.P. for the pan brahmins among us, how many can relate to this. also notice their treatment of their village dalits.

www.outlookindia.com | The Double Life Of Pandit G

here is a family of rat catchers, who in two generations have made it. thanks to reservations. should we as a brahmin community complain? in the larger interest of india? we will have to live through our wits and not moan when the government steps in to right ancient wrongs.

www.outlookindia.com | Out Of The Rat Race

another dalit group. these used to catch mosquitos. today they are phds and writers !!

www.outlookindia.com | Powered By A PhD

... and here is a new crop of erstwhile untouchables.. the dalit industrialists. wonder how many upper castes they give livelihood !! how can we even mention the name of manu, in their context?

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?266665

it does not take education to start a university or another temple of learning. here this family graduated from mithai shops to university - owning it and providing a service, based on sound business models.

we as a community appear to spend more energy reviviing temples of idols. why did we missed out on opening a college or university? is it a vague psyche feeling of our ancestors, that erudition should remain within the community? don't know

www.outlookindia.com | A Lovely Story Indeed

below is a lament for the north indian muslims. where and how did they miss out? is it because of fixation with pakistan. their south indian brethren appear to have done well!!

www.outlookindia.com | The Lamb?s Share

when i hear dr ambedkar being discussed in plain terms of dalit vs brahmins, i cannot but laugh at the ignorance and prejudice of some of our members. dr BRA had a vision for india. one built from a family of equals. forever he is my hero.

www.outlookindia.com | The India Gene Code

jai hind!!

 

[Nara]

....when i hear dr ambedkar being discussed in plain terms of dalit vs brahmins, i cannot but laugh at the ignorance and prejudice of some of our members. dr BRA had a vision for india. one built from a family of equals. forever he is my hero.

My dear K, for saying this, you are my hero!

From the excerpts I can tell this is a fantastic collection of articles. I will read them all.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

My dear K, for saying this, you are my hero!

From the excerpts I can tell this is a fantastic collection of articles. I will read them all.

Cheers!

nara,

considering that outlook is a 'the hindu' publication, this was surprising.

the overall theme is upbeat. it does not ignore the 50% of india who are deprived, but it was heartening to see that the balance 50%, the pie was distributed across all communities.

it was even more delightful to read success stories from so many dalit groups. ambedkar would probably smile in his heaven.

more work to be done, but india is going in the right direction.

so, there is plenty of work for reformers like you, happy hindu, RVR, and many others here, each who in his or her own way, contribute to move the stone, a fraction in the right direction.
and that too, selflessly.

what some do with words, the other do with actions. both, i think, are equally needed for the ultimate reformation of india. and neither is superior or inferior to the other.

you might be surprised that i included RVR as a reformer and progressive. to me, he is more like me. atleast i think so & i identify myself closely with him.

my views and progressive slant is firm and deeply rooted within me. i will keep on trying even with the most conservative by keeping a dialogue. the help i could do, will be all be for the needy, but the form in which i do, may be different.

i think RVR, inspite of yours (& happy's) philosophical difference with him, is a karma yogi of the highest order, that i have come toknow. i am very pleased that he is here, though i don't hear from him as often as i used to.

to me, periyar and ambedkar are the two indian saints of the 20th century india. along with mahatma gandhi, they make up the modern trimurthi between them they may look contradictory, but together, what a team!!

 

[happyhindu]

to me, periyar and ambedkar are the two indian saints of the 20th century india. along with mahatma gandhi, they make up the modern trimurthi between them they may look contradictory, but together, what a team!!

Well if the Rudra can transform into Shiva and if Maruts can transform into Rudra, then surely a 1000 years later, Gandhi can be transformed into God....and in the year 3010 people will be debating if the actions of Gandhi were ethical or not....

Sometimes am so amazed with the kind of takes ppl come up with, when it comes to puranic stories and defence of their objects of venerations....all in faith...and any faith that is good, is better left alone -- in good faith..

Read all the hyperlinks you gave. Good to see former depriveds sailing on every available route of progress..

But was peeved to see Mayawati being garlanded though.. with that big garland of rupee notes...Shamless looter and even more shameless sychophants surrounding her....

 

[kunjuppu]

happy,

humans need to venerate, i think.

if gautama buddha, who maintained a noble silence with reference to God, can now be venerated by the buddhists - hinayana or mahayana - not sure which, i can see temples or mani mandapams as these are called nowadays, for periyar, gandhi & ambedkar.

i think, india is too big, complex for a single solution applicable to all. we need multiple solutions for the immensity of our problems.

but as long as they are all going in the same way, ie towards redemption and upliftment of dalits and tribals and the downtrodden, i think, they are acceptable.

what is not acceptable, is the suppression of communities, castes and groups - india is a country for all its citizens. equally. if that does not happen, more and more of kashmir or assam will result. if not anything else, that alone, is a good reason, to be fair to ensure that each community has a stake in the progress of the country and a piece of the pie.

happy, you have stated that you wish to start all over again in india. it is not returning. it is a new start. best wishes for the same. i think there is no 'returning' in such instances. as india is changing by the minute. so we cannot 'return' to what we left. it is a new beginning.

best wishes.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sir,

Its about the family. The old ones cannot make do with so many things here (are like a fish out of water). It wud not matter to which country i go next from here. The old ones cannot adjust anywhere except the place they call home (India). Personally too i like the idea of settling back where i grew up....i do visit back as often as i can...and am sorta comfortable there (even with that traffic and all), it does not matter...

 

[nachi naga]

k,hh,nara....nice posts from the three of you.senthil is the fresh scent in our forum,enjoying his posts thoroughly,though studiously avoiding posting in the thread between nara,as expressed by praveen,as i am like honey attracting the bees (mods) ...kumbhaya for me

 

[rajesh]

to me, periyar and ambedkar are the two indian saints of the 20th century india. along with mahatma gandhi, they make up the modern trimurthi between them they may look contradictory, but together, what a team!!

Dear Kunjuppu,
I have been an ardent fan of your posts. I have almost agreed totally in your viewpoints except your take on periyar. From my little reading of periyar, I feel that his only motive was to expose the discrimination practised by brahmins and thereby unite the OBCs under a single agenda, namely anti-brahminism. He succeeded to a large extent because the power almost transferred from Brahmins to OBCs without any bloodshed or violence. So far so good.But what was his contribution towards the discrimination practised by the OBCs towards dalits. A lot of evidence is now being brought forward(by dalit writers like ravikumar, who is also a MLA now) to prove that he was a silent spectator of OBC oppression towards dalits(In some cases, he also played along like the keezhvenmani incident). So,I dont think he deserves a place along with Gandhi and Ambedkar,because he wasnt against caste per-se, but he was only against brahmins being in the top of the hierarchy.

Also, his views on religion are only fit to be ignored totally. His view of religion was that it was only a storehouse of superstitions and backwardness. He understood hinduism as a system where one prays to a non-existent god and that God is the only centre around which the hindu religion revolves. He did not take the pains to understand the philosophy behind hinduism. He wasn't aware of the philosophical treasures that it holds. His understanding of religion was very very elementary and so he talked about overthrowing everything.Throw away gods, they dont exist. quote manusmriti and throw away all hindu scriptures. To achieve women's empowerement, throw away the uterus. His approach was only on the negative/hatred. He could afford to speak like this because he did not understand the complexities that underlie a social system.

Removing inequalities in this society is like performing a surgery. And periyar was attempting to do this surgery with a farmers plough. He was advising to throw the baby with the bath water. I'm an atheist myself. But I understand the need of god and religion for a common man. I think hinduism, like buddhism has a storehouse of knowledge that is very essential for the human race. It has organized it in the form of a religion and inequality and power creeps in when something is organized.

So, if you want to overthrow religion, you need to fill that with a even higher spirituality. Ambedkar had this consciousness. And that is why he advised his followers to move into buddhism.He was a true thinker and a learned scholar. And Gandhi was a even big seer. I think to place someone like periar in that pedestal is a shame.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Kunjuppu,
I have been an ardent fan of your posts. I have almost agreed totally in your viewpoints except your take on periyar. From my little reading of periyar, I feel that his only motive was to expose the discrimination practised by brahmins and thereby unite the OBCs under a single agenda, namely anti-brahminism. He succeeded to a large extent because the power almost transferred from Brahmins to OBCs without any bloodshed or violence. So far so good.But what was his contribution towards the discrimination practised by the OBCs towards dalits. A lot of evidence is now being brought forward(by dalit writers like ravikumar, who is also a MLA now) to prove that he was a silent spectator of OBC oppression towards dalits(In some cases, he also played along like the keezhvenmani incident). So,I dont think he deserves a place along with Gandhi and Ambedkar,because he wasnt against caste per-se, but he was only against brahmins being in the top of the hierarchy.

Also, his views on religion are only fit to be ignored totally. His view of religion was that it was only a storehouse of superstitions and backwardness. He understood hinduism as a system where one prays to a non-existent god and that God is the only centre around which the hindu religion revolves. He did not take the pains to understand the philosophy behind hinduism. He wasn't aware of the philosophical treasures that it holds. His understanding of religion was very very elementary and so he talked about overthrowing everything.Throw away gods, they dont exist. quote manusmriti and throw away all hindu scriptures. To achieve women's empowerement, throw away the uterus. His approach was only on the negative/hatred. He could afford to speak like this because he did not understand the complexities that underlie a social system.

Removing inequalities in this society is like performing a surgery. And periyar was attempting to do this surgery with a farmers plough. He was advising to throw the baby with the bath water. I'm an atheist myself. But I understand the need of god and religion for a common man. I think hinduism, like buddhism has a storehouse of knowledge that is very essential for the human race. It has organized it in the form of a religion and inequality and power creeps in when something is organized.

So, if you want to overthrow religion, you need to fill that with a even higher spirituality. Ambedkar had this consciousness. And that is why he advised his followers to move into buddhism.He was a true thinker and a learned scholar. And Gandhi was a even big seer. I think to place someone like periar in that pedestal is a shame.

Thanks rajesh. Hopefully, I can explain where I am coming from.

. Barring God there is no one who is absolutely pure or right. Humans by nature are flawed. That includes all of us. That also includes Gandhi, ambedkar and periyar. Ultimately, we judge these, by balancing the good against the bad, and deciding whether there was any residual good.

Take Gandhi for instance.there are many quirks about him that one has to look into books to discover. For example he liked to sleep naked next to pretty young women to test his chastitiy. I prefer not to read much into it, because to me, his overall leadership path to attaining india’s independence overcomes any weakness barring killing another human being out of vengeance. Gandhi also was not a good father to his children, as all of them, at various points in their life would attest. Again, no business of mine. And so on…

Same goes for ambedkar. As the chief architect of the constitution, he is God’s gift to india. The Brahmins were among the first to support his proposal for reservations. His violent attack on Brahmins and brahminism, is not much different from that of periyar. If you want to feel its sting, you should know marathi. But does it matter in the overall context of his contribution to india, and his own caring upliftment of the dalits? Absolutely not. Ambedkar towers of all the politicians of his day, including Nehru, rajaji, Prasad and jagajivan ram.

Periyar can be argued on the same lines. I agree with your response 100%. There is absolutely no argurment about his crude and somewhat childishly wicked antics to hurt hindu feelings. But then, think about it. Periyar has gone on record, and probably the only leader to do so – asking his followers not to follow him or his teachings blindly. He asked them to question every tenet of his, and only take what is applicable to each. In that context, periyar’s views of simplicity of marriage, empowerment of women, women education, economic upward mobility through education, assertivenss, pride of Dravidian culture – all of these hit home with the majority segment of tamil nadu.

You might notice, that most have conveniently ignored his call to destroy Hinduism, and today with the solidification of Dravidian power, the erstwhile atheist are entering the temples openly or on the sly. Except Brahmins, whom he has virulently verbal abused, the rest of tamil nadu does not have any wholescale antipathy towards periyar, though I think, with the passing of time, he too will be relegated to a pedestal and life will carry on.

It is interesting to note, that even jayalalitha, a self acknowledged Brahmin, pays lip service to periyar. That has what periyar’s teachings have come to today, but in their heyday during the good part of 20th century, periyar was indeed very potent. He changed, one handedly, the entire political and social structure of tamil nadu. Even mayawati pays homage to him.

Hope this explains my take on periyar. It is not a 100% endorsement. But overall he had more good than bad. Hence I gang him up with Gandhi and ambedkar. I am quite sure that this can be disputed, but it is more of a personal thing with me.

Thank you.

 

[Nara]

Dear rajesh, Greetings!

I am not going to comment on EVR periyar, K has done that.

....I'm an atheist myself. But I understand the need of god and religion for a common man. I think hinduism, like buddhism has a storehouse of knowledge that is very essential for the human race. It has organized it in the form of a religion and inequality and power creeps in when something is organized.

This is sort of intriguing to me. Since you say you are an Atheist, what value do you see in religion for a "common man"? Why can't the "common" man also be an Atheist like you and me?

Is there anything of particular value that only god and religion can offer that a secular system cannot? If it is fear of punishment you are referring to, a secular government can offer swift and immediate punishment in "this" life itself. If it is moral values you are referring to, then secular texts like திருக்குறள் offers them without any of the poison that is inherent in all religious doctrine, more in some and less in some others.

So, what good do you see that cannot be had unless we have god and religion?

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

...you might be surprised that i included RVR as a reformer and progressive.

Hi K, I understand, we all have our blind spots. One thing I will concede is he seems to have suddenly developed a special affinity for people whom he refers to as nari kuravas, with affection I presume.

Cheers!

 

[rajesh]

This is sort of intriguing to me. Since you say you are an Atheist, what value do you see in religion for a "common man"? Why can't the "common" man also be an Atheist like you and me?

Is there anything of particular value that only god and religion can offer that a secular system cannot? If it is fear of punishment you are referring to, a secular government can offer swift and immediate punishment in "this" life itself. If it is moral values you are referring to, then secular texts like திருக்குறள் offers them without any of the poison that is inherent in all religious doctrine, more in some and less in some others.

So, what good do you see that cannot be had unless we have god and religion?

Cheers!

Dear Nara,
Logically speaking, one cannot offer any proof for the existence of God. Modern science has demystified so many things that holding the idea of someone sitting on top listening/answering our prayers,only seems to be a joke. A lot of ardent devotees too might know this subconsciously, but still they stick to their faith. Why? Because, the idea of God arises out of man's insecurity against this unpredictable thing called life. God is an instrument, that society has invented,just like so many other things. Marriage is an instrument. The idea of compassion and morality are instruments, invented for human beings to live together.

This instrument of God,is still sticks around because of its utility. When struck with a huge catastrophe, what are the options available to a man? When meaninglesness of existence strikes on ones face, how do we face it? Is it not a death experience? We would have seen such unfortunate incidents in our/others' life. And in all the cases, people derive their strength only out of religion. People cross sea of hurdles holding on to the thought that it 'is all God's will'. And who are we to say that it is not right. And that they are not logical? What is the alternative that we got to offer them?

And there are also people who cannot be satisfied with only beliefs. Howmuch ever they try, their logical mind would not allow them to take that route. For those people, hinduism also has a philosophical level that talks about life in a totally different sense. Bhagavad gita, upanishads and the other scriptures form this category. They talk about putting an end to suffering. It talks about a totally different dimension of life experienced by our sages. To quote people in the recent past, osho,j.krishnamurti and ramana maharishi belong to this category.

Religion(I mean hinduism) is the single thread that holds together both these levels. For a common man, it offers god, prayers, rituals and festivals to make life more colorful. And to a seeker, it also has a storehouse of knowledge and practices that would help a man get liberated. But,what we see in the name of religion is only the first level. This is where we see all the superstitions,beliefs and the rest of it. And there are rarest of the rare who set their journey into the second level.

And all the moral values that we now know of, it was not spread to the masses by books like thirukural. It spread to the masses, only because religion spread it. Religion was the moral voice of the society. Sitting in the internet age, we dont see preserving any information as an issue. But 2000 years ago, what means did one have to pass any sort of knowledge to the next generation? In spite of that, we still have bagavat gita.we have patanjali yoga sutras.we have some moral standards set in our consciousness. Hinduism organized this and passed on to so many generations. And in that process of organizing there have been many wrongs that need to be corrected. But it does not mean we have to throw the whole religion out.

 

[Nara]

Thank you rajesh for the detailed response. I realize this is merely an academic question, god and religion are here to stay. Religious dogma gets pounded into us even when we are in the safety of our own mother's wombs. People can't let go of the security blanket, and even more, can't bear to see their younguns letting go of the security blanket they so carefully and painstakingly taught them to rely on.

"And who are we to say that it is not right.", you ask. I agree to the extent I don't want to wake up a hungry person sleeping, and tell him there is no food and he has to go to bed without eating anything -- that would be cruel.

But, once again, my question was only an academic one.

If we were to start over, with the benefit of the knowledge of what god and religion can do to people, I would opt for a more rational approach to derive solace and meaning. The untold misery god and religion have caused is too high a price to pay for the meaning and solace derived from the delusional edifice of god and religion.

I have a few tangential points.

The idea of compassion is not an invented concept, it is coded in our genes. I refer you to the book "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. Morality flows from this compassion.

Secular thoughts as enshrined in texts like Thirukkural did not catch on because the god and religion memes were promoted and to some extent these texts themselves were co-opted in the service of god and religion. Starting from Socrates and Charvaka, history is littered with the corpses of enlightened people who wanted the population to wake up and smell the coffee, only to be felled by the establishment. In other words, it was not an organic process that pushed god and religion ahead of secular concepts.

Yes, paraphrasing you a little, our ancients left behind a treasure trove of musings, much like the Greeks. The lessons we can distill out of these writings do not require god and religion. In fact, I would say that god and religion interfere with the process of developing a nuanced understanding of these texts. People get caught up in Advaitam, Visihtadvaitam, etc., and stick to family tradition, Iyers think Advaitam is ultimate, and SVs think VA is the greatest, and so on.

Thanks rajesh, for an interesting conversation....