People centric economic policies

[kunjuppu]

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India finds formula that doesn’t leave middle class behind - The Globe and Mail

folks,

this is a view from the other side of the world, larry summers and further reflected in toronto globe.

now a days, it is more common to read of good news from india, which for long term expats like me, is a breath of fresh air. even the cwg openings got good press, though the prep work for it was panned.

this article emphasizes the inclusivity of indian economic policies and has a good word for manmohan (& indirectly sonya).

we might also be proud, that the quoted raghuram rajan, is one us tambrams and hopefully a future nobel laureate. he is very young and has years ahead of him.

when i read this, and i hear dismal stories here of corruption, caste based discrimination and above all an all pervading sense of hopeless based on loss of entitlement, i often wonder, if we are talking about the same country?

do we have more participants from india in this forum, who have been left out of the economic boom. if so, can you give some fact based true profile stories, while keeping your privacy intact. what made a victim a victim?

i will look upon this more as hearing another viewpoint.

 

[sangom]

India finds formula that doesn’t leave middle class behind - The Globe and Mail

folks,

this is a view from the other side of the world, larry summers and further reflected in toronto globe.

now a days, it is more common to read of good news from india, which for long term expats like me, is a breath of fresh air. even the cwg openings got good press, though the prep work for it was panned.

this article emphasizes the inclusivity of indian economic policies and has a good word for manmohan (& indirectly sonya).

Shri Kunjuppu,

It has become common to place very favourable news about Indian economy and Indian economic growth, prosperity, etc., especially in the western media. In my limited knowledge, all this talk is not based on reality. The knowledgeable people in the west will be definitely aware of this weakness but for reasons of their own (which I cannot gauge now) they must be spreading this news.

The basic truth IMO is that mainly due to the IT boom, India has been getting lot of foreign exchange for the last few years. These have probably become US Treasury bills and held by India. It is like some cash which has come into the till. But whether it represents "business profit" will become clear only if the Indian budgets are analyzed carefully. I consider it somewhat like getting get US dollars and then spending it lavishly. Whether this trend will sustain, whether national priorities have been properly assessed, etc., are not clear.

It helps US to see that China and India hold on to their US Treasury bills faithfully, or squander it away.

My economics is rudimentary. So, knowledgeable members may kindly correct what I have said.

we might also be proud, that the quoted raghuram rajan, is one us tambrams and hopefully a future nobel laureate. he is very young and has years ahead of him.

He seems to be a North Indian.

when i read this, and i hear dismal stories here of corruption, caste based discrimination and above all an all pervading sense of hopeless based on loss of entitlement, i often wonder, if we are talking about the same country?

While it is comforting to swallow such "feel-good" news and even to show them off as real achievements of India, with pride and thus prove one's patriotism (this is done in many e-mails, web sites, etc.), the reality is different. Middle class is there but unlike the poverty line, there is no official dividing line between the Middle Class and the next higher. Pl. see:

http://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000253735.pdf

http://www.planningcommission.gov.in/news/prmar07.pdf

Middle class in India has arrived

Middle Class still constitutes 30 percent and it is not that the Middle Class in India does not suffer from any disadvantages. For example, the middle class in Kerala also increases indebtedness of the worst order and many suicides also. This is because the Middle Class is identified on the basis of consumer goods and some other items, and not on the financial soundness of a household. Lavish living will qualify a household to be counted as Middle Class even if it is all financed by borrowings from "blade companies" at astronomical interest rates!

do we have more participants from india in this forum, who have been left out of the economic boom. if so, can you give some fact based true profile stories, while keeping your privacy intact. what made a victim a victim?

i will look upon this more as hearing another viewpoint.

When we say, "left out of the economic boom", it should be realized that even the beggars do not perhaps expect anything less than a rupee now, though 50 paise coins are still current; but a cup of tea in the way-side stall will be 3Rs. Thus the effects of the "boom" have percolated down to the earth, but conditions have not changed for many. So, while the strict answer to your query will be, "No, (virtually) no one has been left out of the economic boom", it will not mean that all have become at least middle-class and none would complain any longer about their conditions. There are many tambram households which still are entitled (honestly) to the BPL rations.

I feel, therefore, that "dismal stories here of corruption, caste based discrimination and above all an all pervading sense of hopeless based on loss of entitlement..." can very well exist side by side, in India, despite what is said in the news report, which does not talk anything about the BPL people, the middle class in India being really lower than elsewhere, and the reservation system for education & jobs, or its abolition because of the prosperity projected by it.

 

[hoover]

Indian politics is always populist. The programms like Saksharta Abhiyan spend billions of rupees without any remarkable achievements.
Once when there was scracity of funds and money bureocracy was more creative and honest. because there were less caste based reservtions. Now there is no problem of money, ( thnaks to the private sector and middle class which is alwas condemned by socialist minded political and elite class.) our govt framework is so ineffeciant due to compromised quality human resource.
what India is shining today is only due to private sector. indeed Bureaucracy is seen as not a catalyst but a big hurdle in the process of devlopment.

 

[sangom]

Indian politics is always populist. The programms like Saksharta Abhiyan spend billions of rupees without any remarkable achievements.
Once when there was scracity of funds and money bureocracy was more creative and honest. because there were less caste based reservtions. Now there is no problem of money, ( thnaks to the private sector and middle class which is alwas condemned by socialist minded political and elite class.) our govt framework is so ineffeciant due to compromised quality human resource.
what India is shining today is only due to private sector. indeed Bureaucracy is seen as not a catalyst but a big hurdle in the process of devlopment.

Dear Shri Hoover,

Perhaps you will know better that in any government scheme for development having, say, 100 Rs. outlay, it will really mean that Rs.60 to Rs.80 will be spent on staff and other expenses for giving a relief, aid, grant, subsidy or whatever they call to the targeted poor people. Even at the time of Rajiv Gandhi, he remarked that (out of this 20 Rupees) only one-third seems to actually go to the poor and the rest is swallowed by the corrupt machinery. Hence when any grandiose scheme is announced, it is realistic to assume that only 6 to 7 percent of the total so announced will go to the really needy and poor.

The agriculture loan waiver scheme was also no better. Much of that money has gone to enrich vested interests only.

 

[hoover]

second the money meant for devlopment, where it goes.
Money in mainland India is spend for people, primarily by Panchayati Raj institution which has become now hub of curruption and dirty politics.
These days it is a totally unnecessary organisation. which raises number of money eating mouths in curruption.
In past execution of all programmes were in hands of govt. servants. yes they were corrupt but even then they were responsible somewhere and there was always fear of action to them. so the number of mouths and apetite was vary less than today. now these days this govt. servant are only a tiny shere of currupt practices. Much of the money in a district goes in mouthe of Zilla Parshad members, Gram Panchayat members. after this thept a vary small amount remains for public work. there is a invincible chain exist now of local politicians to the prime minister of this country. everyone have his own political concerns and because of that it is necessity to turn blind eye toward all his subordinates.
Mr. kunjuppu, do you know that in india for a village of population of eight hundred govt. gives atleast ten million in money in addition of the social securiy measures like food securiy every year;isnt it is sufficiant to turn living standerd of that population equal to that in your town. so what this is happening?
I will continue informing in this thread much more facts and different angles. as I have spent much of my life in village and semi rural area.

 

[RVR]

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

Please read the interesting article of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of Marxist party of his analysis of India.

Indian Left still stuck in the 1940s, says Karat - Rediff.com India News

He has openly admitted that Institution of caste in India is much stronger than any other Institution and no body can ignore the same

After the reading the above, I could not prevent laughing about the so called liberals here attempting to remove caste here.

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

Please read the interesting article of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of Marxist party of his analysis of India.

Indian Left still stuck in the 1940s, says Karat - Rediff.com India News

He has openly admitted that Institution of caste in India is much stronger than any other Institution and no body can ignore the same

After the reading the above, I could not prevent laughing about the so called liberals here attempting to remove caste here.

All the best

RVR,

the topic of the thread is about how india's economic policies are viewed by someone of stature like larry summers.

there are enough threads about castes, and let us please avoid the intrusion of the same here.

also i do not like labelling and name calling, for it could happen that you could have a label or name which you might not find flattering. so please avoid name callings.

let us express our views with the right tools - logic, rhetoric, debate and arguement.

to use epithets, to me, is like throwing stones and i do not find elegant, neither as an act, or behooving of decent members here.

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

raghuram govinda rajan

to me looks like tambram from iit madras. i looked up for his family and not much was said. i suspect, from his features that he is an iyengar, but i could completely off base. it is common for tamil folks to split their names, once they come to the west. for ease of identification. i know of a balagangadharan, who simply changed it to bala g.dharan. neat.

whatever he may be, he is indian, and of that we could all be proud. he is of the amartya sen school, that the people have to be included in the calculation of econometrics. he has an increasingly wider audience and has the ears of manmohan and sonya.

re populist policies, it is the norm of any democratic process, to dish out goodies in return for votes. it is done regularly on a grand scale in the usa, also in uk canada and anywhere there is the election of leaders by popular vote. the only exception may be singapore, but singapore is a unique case of a successfully managed city state.

re india getting good reviews in the western press, i would not look at it with suspicion. especially when it comes to foreign affairs, the press here is thorough and kudos are hard earned. and they will not be the 100% praise, but always qualified with strings. so accept it for what it is worth.

what bothers me, is these sometimes are quoted out of context in indian blogs with chest thumping pride. that is to be avoided, for nothing is permanent, and there is no guarantee that tomorrow will be automatically better. we have to work at it.

a while ago, it was common in this forum for certain posters to quote re india's young population vis a vis china, and how this was a strength by itself. to me, there is an element of sorrow here, in the sense, there will be fewer and fewer of us based on current trend and prejudices, and that the bulk of the new youngsters are from communities other than ours. should it matter? on a grand india scale NO. on a tambram scale, yes. but then i am digressing here...enough said.

the west has always appreciated the strengths of our bureaucratic infrastructure - ie rbi, courts, comparatively corrupt free stock exchange, our english and above all our entrepreneurship given a chance. granted that some of these institutions may be jaded, let us ourselves not discredit them wholesale, like i see it here - the government can do no right, the justices are corrupt and even the cricket games are fixed. to me, i would rather look at the glass half full, than half empty. especially when it comes to india. even more so, when it comes to our community.

hope this explains.

also, another point i think i should mention here... there are serious differences of opinion on some topics. i think there is enough of common interests, and i think it is the duty of all members here, that one should not be overwhelmed by disagreements, to paint others as pure evil or untouchables. we should all be civilized enough, that where we disagree, we should accept that, and move on to work together on points of agreement. is this not the true spirit of any family?

thank you.

 

[sangom]

...
also, another point i think i should mention here... there are serious differences of opinion on some topics. i think there is enough of common interests, and i think it is the duty of all members here, that one should not be overwhelmed by disagreements, to paint others as pure evil or untouchables. we should all be civilized enough, that where we disagree, we should accept that, and move on to work together on points of agreement. is this not the true spirit of any family?

thank you.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

I don't understand what made you make the above observations. Was my post or some part of it not civilized? If so kindly point out even publicly in this forum so that I may note it and avoid such mistakes in future.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

I don't understand what made you make the above observations. Was my post or some part of it not civilized? If so kindly point out even publicly in this forum so that I may note it and avoid such mistakes in future.

sangom,

i was pointing to my own guidelines. i try to keep my posts to subject matter, and not to the person who is writing it. not to character of the person. i think, by good posts, we enhance the stature of the forum.

also, on a purely personal level, when i see my posts from even 2 years ago, i have learned how to express better and forcefully without being rude and crass. it might be of interest to you, that the person whom i consider to be my nearsest and dearest cyberfriend, was one with whom i had the worst of scraps. and then i learned. learned well. sometimes good things happen in strange ways

i have found certain posters filled with personal attacks. it was those folks that i addressed to, and maybe i had no business to do so. but i like the forum, and i think there is learning curve for everyone to post elegantly. further more as this skillset improves, they will find it applicable to other aspects of their life, most importantly, work life. the benefits of good and concise communication are a life skill, and the forum is a good place to hone it.

regarding yourself: i consider you a gentleman and scholar, and personally, a good role model for everyone here. thanks again.

 

[Nara]

Larry Summers

Dear K, the financial crisis of 2007/2008 and the continuing economic mess we all are mired in struggling to climb out of, was not caused by a single individual, many pathologically greedy people deserve that honor. But, if we have to select one individual for that honor, it must be Larry Summers, for his role in opening the flood gates, and then, when he had a chance to correct the mistakes, he tried to punch holes, on behalf of his Wall Street paymasters, in the people-centric regulatory regime being proposed.

He was instrumental in repealing the law called Glass-Steagall law, enacted in the aftermath of the 1929 depression. He was instrumental in enabling the so called "derivatives market" which is blamed for the near melt-down of the financial system in 2007. He straddled between government and Wall Street, easing up on the regulations while in the government and milking it for personal gain while in Wall Street. If we are to rank order all the economists who care about people-centric polices, Summers will surely be at the very bottom sharing the space with Wall Street tycoons.

If anyone is to be forbidden from saying the phrase "people-centric" Summers is the right person.

If we are interested in people-centric economic policies, we need to listen carefully to what Karat said in UK. Failing to understand what he is saying, misquoting him, and then laughing about it are signs of inadequacy of reason. Here I give two sections from the Rediff article:

The Indian Left, Karat said, was historically wrong in writing off the institution of caste.

[...]

Today the Left in India is confronted with three challenges: the growth of neo-liberal capitalism that is leading to widespread social inequalities; the continuing challenge to bring about agrarian transformation; and the fight against entrenched oppressive institutions such as caste," Karat said.
​

It is wrong to write-off caste and act as though it does not exist. However much one may think he/she does not see caste (Steven Cobert style), on the scale of the nation, poverty and lack of opportunity are still very strongly correlated with caste. For any "people-centric" economic policy to have the intended effect, one must pay attention to caste, and we must fight against it. This is what Karat was saying. He did not say lets all become castiest, or indulge in caste politics like BJP or Congress, or DMK, or ADMK.

He also made an astute observation:

India's increasing proximity to the US, Karat said, prevented it from pursuing an independent policy in international relations, and added that this proximity was having an impact in domestic policies as well, including in the agricultural sector.
​

IMO, India has already become an U.S. vassal. Its economic and political destiny has become so closely interconnected, with India in a colonial type dependency with respect to U.S., it has lost all its independence. Today, India's foreign policy will be allowed to be independent only to the extent U.S. allows it. On the domestic side, the adverse effects are not limited to agricultural sector alone. As we recently saw in the debate over limiting liability of US nuclear companies, India will have to keep bending to the wishes of the U.S. MNCs. In exchange, U.S. will continue to praise India and inflate their pride. This is just a small price to pay, they have India by the proverbial balls.

So, people-centric policy, forget it.

regards ....

 

[sangom]

sangom,

raghuram govinda rajan

to me looks like tambram from iit madras. i looked up for his family and not much was said. i suspect, from his features that he is an iyengar, but i could completely off base. it is common for tamil folks to split their names, once they come to the west. for ease of identification. i know of a balagangadharan, who simply changed it to bala g.dharan. neat.

whatever he may be, he is indian, and of that we could all be proud. he is of the amartya sen school, that the people have to be included in the calculation of econometrics. he has an increasingly wider audience and has the ears of manmohan and sonya.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

I was worried whether I had committed some mistake which has hurt you. Thank you for the clarification.
Rajan is shown as born in Bhopal and no connection is discernible with South or IIT. Any way I was merely responding to your original remarks about him as under:

"we might also be proud, that the quoted raghuram rajan, is one us tambrams and hopefully a future nobel laureate. he is very young and has years ahead of him."

It was not my intention at all that since he looks like a North Indian we need not be proud of him and his achievements, existing and those to come in future. Did I say anything which can be construed in that way?

re populist policies, it is the norm of any democratic process, to dish out goodies in return for votes. it is done regularly on a grand scale in the usa, also in uk canada and anywhere there is the election of leaders by popular vote. the only exception may be singapore, but singapore is a unique case of a successfully managed city state.

The essential feature which I wanted to highlight was the extreme corruption which prevails, not the populist or vote-catching aspects. Now it is virtually giving nothing except grandiose schemes in paper and asking for votes, on that basis!!

re india getting good reviews in the western press, i would not look at it with suspicion. especially when it comes to foreign affairs, the press here is thorough and kudos are hard earned. and they will not be the 100% praise, but always qualified with strings. so accept it for what it is worth.

If you read the newsreport it will be seen that there is a slight effort to draw comparison with China, as shown below:

"He thinks the real model to watch is that of India, the world’s largest democracy. Partly because of its political system, India’s economic rise has been powered as much by the voracity of its domestic consumers as it has by the country’s push into foreign markets. That’s a sharp contrast with China, where the focus has been on working for the rest of the world, while the Chinese people, who are poorer on average than those of Albania or Jamaica, nonetheless save more than half of their GDP." Such things do have their own purposes in international arena, I think.

the west has always appreciated the strengths of our bureaucratic infrastructure - ie rbi, courts, comparatively corrupt free stock exchange, our english and above all our entrepreneurship given a chance. granted that some of these institutions may be jaded, let us ourselves not discredit them wholesale, like i see it here - the government can do no right, the justices are corrupt and even the cricket games are fixed. to me, i would rather look at the glass half full, than half empty. especially when it comes to india. even more so, when it comes to our community.

The British did leave a comparatively corruption-free bureaucracy but it has been eaten away but for the outer form. That is the tragedy of free India.

 

[RVR]

Kunjuppu ji,

Mahatma Gandhi rural employment scheme has the rural India to a great extent.

Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Agricultural loan write off has resulted in farmers suicide to a great extent.

Re 1 per kg of rice in Tamilnadu has definitely improved the life of people living below poverty line. Government of India is bringing a scheme at all India level bringing cheap rice and wheat to majority of the population.

The Hindu : News / National : NAC consensus on food security

Health insurance scheme of Tamilnadu is also an excellent scheme covering large population with quality health care.

Kalaignar Insurance Scheme, Kalaignar Kapitu Thittam, Chennai: Sankara Nethralaya

Tamilnadu Government proposes to give pucca houses for all in the next five years.

TN govt announces mega free housing scheme for poor

There are lot of leakages and corruption in all the above but we have to appreciate the intention of both central and state government.

Let us hope that corruption and leakages are eliminated in the future

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

thanks RVR.

i guess this is what larry summers meant re people centric. one has to do special effort for the lowest levels of the population. because it is the right thing to do. also due to self interest - if you don't give them their needs, they will take it violently.

the beauty of the democratic system, is that it provides a constant safety valve for the discontents.

corruption will be there everywhere. it is the cost of doing business. all we can hope is that the country can afford the corruption and still mitigate the poverty and ensure self help to upward mobility.

once again, thank you for your links...

Kunjuppu ji,

Mahatma Gandhi rural employment scheme has the rural India to a great extent.

Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Agricultural loan write off has resulted in farmers suicide to a great extent.

Re 1 per kg of rice in Tamilnadu has definitely improved the life of people living below poverty line. Government of India is bringing a scheme at all India level bringing cheap rice and wheat to majority of the population.

The Hindu : News / National : NAC consensus on food security

Health insurance scheme of Tamilnadu is also an excellent scheme covering large population with quality health care.

Kalaignar Insurance Scheme, Kalaignar Kapitu Thittam, Chennai: Sankara Nethralaya

Tamilnadu Government proposes to give pucca houses for all in the next five years.

TN govt announces mega free housing scheme for poor

There are lot of leakages and corruption in all the above but we have to appreciate the intention of both central and state government.

Let us hope that corruption and leakages are eliminated in the future

All the best

 

[hoover]

where is discontent safty valve for Brahmin discontent.
India has to access poverty and economic conditions by economic norms which is measurable in numbers and not by so called social norms i.e. caste and religion.
Instead of spending money on projects which are not that 'material' govt must spend in the large infrastructural projects.
Let govt. not worry to feed each and every person including fourth or eighth children of some one; but should form conditions in which those who wish to uplift them can have space for their creativity. and large infrastrtuture projects are inevitable in that process.
National river joining project is most important in that respect and whatever cost it may take it must be completed zealously.

 

[suresoo]

Dear RVR Sir,

Please read the interesting article of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of Marxist party of his analysis of India.

Indian Left still stuck in the 1940s, says Karat - Rediff.com India News

He has openly admitted that Institution of caste in India is much stronger than any other Institution and no body can ignore the same

After the reading the above, I could not prevent laughing about the so called liberals here attempting to remove caste here.

More than the article, it is the comments section that gave me a laugh

One read as follows.....

"From the manner in which Prakash Karat obstructed all the major decisions of UPA 1, it seemed that of all the communists, he was the one who was stuck in the history of the times of Stalin and Mao. Indeed it is surprising that how he is mouthing the truth, that Indian communists are stuck with the ideas of 1940s! Pot calling the kettle black! Until recently, it seemed that Karat was like Napoleon III in the French History, a man who learnt nothing, and forgot nothing. At last, even he too has started learning."

thanks for the link!

 

[hoover]

today they show to Obama how panchayati raj is working and how it is devloping country.
they should show that in last months panchayat elections in UP there were atlest two hundred murders related to elcetions and killing spree is going on even now.