@ Nara (2)
"Validity of AIT must be left to the academics to settle. But, with the resurgence of Hindutva in India it has become a political issue."
AIT has been part of Indian politics since the British made the idea - after which it came to academics too, and into ideas of parties like Hindutva (who are against it) and DK, DMK (who are for it).
"Everyone has an opinion, TBs particularly -- they oppose AIT with a vengeance, I don't know why?"
My parents both believe in the AIT, they learnt it in school like I did. I believed in it for sometime too, but it raised doubts. It was not only the brahmins who opposed AIT though, B.R. Ambedkar himself opposed the view because he could clearly see a false idea being fabricated and put into academics my the power of government.
There are brahmins who accept the AIT too if you are wondering - like my mom's cousin who I visited some months ago (mentioned below also). But there are those who oppose it too, if they do with a vengance its because it seems to bring them to a point where they need to exculpate themselves of something that never occured.
"I know that TBs in general feel a kind of separateness from everyone else -- less so among the younger gen and more so among the older ones."
Nara, this is a relavant thing to discuss, which is why I started a separate thread. But I agree with this. It is probably because we had a culture that was different in lifestyle, diet etc, and in fear that it would become "polluted" they segragated themselves. I spoke of this in the other thread on caste system. Things like madi, untouchability or whatever it is based on need to be rooted. I disagree with the idea that society can progress if its various people are separated.
"TB, everyone else is a Shudra."
This is a generalization.
"TBs routinely behaved for centuries as though they were different from everyone else in Tamil Nadu."
They were different by culture, lifestyle they didn't "behave" to pretend. But tell me, why did the DK's anti-brahmin movement put the load of caste practices on brahmins? Today, brahmins hardly exist in Tamil Nadu, there is still poverty, still casteism.
I agree that TBs did many social evils, and that they should have given space to others, and treated them like humans. But the mind-poisioning of DK/DMK lies in the fact that they didn't speak of casteism as the evil, they separated brahmins from the rest when many non-brahmin upper castes had caste discrimination practices too. A good thing would have been to condemn the practice, not isolate a community.
"all the NBs joined together and agreed, yes you are different, as AIT says so, you guys invaded us."
All NBs wouldn't have done this if the DK propaganda against brahmins didn't. There is also aversion is to the fact that TB have some people among them who are light-skinned. This is not because of any "aryans", these people came from north brahmin groups in later times.
DK/DMK in their anti-brahminism cannot own up to actual history, or the legacy of tamil brahmins in various fields.
"Genetic studies show the highest Brahmin to the lowest Dalits share a high degree of commonality of X chromosome pattern in the DNA showing descent from common pool of mothers. Such studies also seem to suggest some high-caste Hindus and Muslims share common patriarchy with central Asian tribes or something close."
It is true that genetic outsiders came and blended into our culture before some became upper castes. But there is no study that speaks of a huge difference. Most Muslims in India are converts, btw. People came into India throughout history, not only as invaders. I have come across south brahmins who are very dark and very fair too. Genetic studies also aren't consistent in these claims because their results depend on the samples they take. You will be able to find both types of studies ones that agree with your claim and others that say there was no major influx, and that even Dalit populations have huge section with foreign genetic markers.
"Now TBs are upset."
Yes, because the ruling fails to acknowledge that we are Tamilians. My friend (also an Iyer) was speaking in sympathy of Srilankan Tamils, my mother considers Tamil language like her own blood, but I need to assure both these people that the Tamil government considers them outsiders.
DK/DMK care two hoots about our sympathies to our land or culture - it doesn't matter to them what we like of Tamil culture, or what we historically contributed to it.
I recently visited TN some months ago. I stayed at my mom's cousin's place (a DMK supporter, atheist), we had debates given that he and I shared different views. He perfected fitted the self-hating, self-rebuking version of person from brahmin family who had been made to feel that every misery in the country (or TN) started and ended with brahmins. I told him caste system has been practiced by so many groups, DK/DMK poisoned people's mind by isolating one community.
To the DMK, there was not one good brahmin, brahmins contributed nothing to Tamil society. Today, the Maharashtra government is doing this by removing the statue of Kondadev, Shivaji's mentor merely because he was a brahmin. Is it fair?
On the other hand, upper caste non-brahmins have escaped the whole blame of our society's failures, which are conveniently placed on the brahmins. Why didn't the DK, or DMK care about addressing that? Periyar is himself an upper caste. I really don't deny that brahmins were in good part responsible, as a community for social evils, but there is a manner of handling social problems.
"They say AIT is what the Britishers used to divide the ever so harmonious social landscape that existed pre-British."
haha..the landscape of India was divided when British came. AIT was devised when the British saw us uniting and understanding the idea of Indian nationalism - this is when they put AIT to picture, so as to build the divide again. It still remains in Indian politics. Exactly what the Hindutva does to the Muslims - branding them as foreigners, DK/DMK does to brahmins.
"But, fully assimilating and becoming an indistinguishable and integral part of Tamil society will make all our lives better."
And who decides what being part of Tamil society is? At what point in history was our lifestyle considered contrary to being Tamil?
I agree that a lot of change has to come in our societies thinking, but it hardly means everything else in TN society is going to be perfect without us. TBs have contributed a great deal too, speaking of just the social evils is unfair. The motive for any progressive party would have been to handle to destroy the issue, not a community.
Regards,
Vivek.
"Validity of AIT must be left to the academics to settle. But, with the resurgence of Hindutva in India it has become a political issue."
AIT has been part of Indian politics since the British made the idea - after which it came to academics too, and into ideas of parties like Hindutva (who are against it) and DK, DMK (who are for it).
"Everyone has an opinion, TBs particularly -- they oppose AIT with a vengeance, I don't know why?"
My parents both believe in the AIT, they learnt it in school like I did. I believed in it for sometime too, but it raised doubts. It was not only the brahmins who opposed AIT though, B.R. Ambedkar himself opposed the view because he could clearly see a false idea being fabricated and put into academics my the power of government.
There are brahmins who accept the AIT too if you are wondering - like my mom's cousin who I visited some months ago (mentioned below also). But there are those who oppose it too, if they do with a vengance its because it seems to bring them to a point where they need to exculpate themselves of something that never occured.
"I know that TBs in general feel a kind of separateness from everyone else -- less so among the younger gen and more so among the older ones."
Nara, this is a relavant thing to discuss, which is why I started a separate thread. But I agree with this. It is probably because we had a culture that was different in lifestyle, diet etc, and in fear that it would become "polluted" they segragated themselves. I spoke of this in the other thread on caste system. Things like madi, untouchability or whatever it is based on need to be rooted. I disagree with the idea that society can progress if its various people are separated.
"TB, everyone else is a Shudra."
This is a generalization.
"TBs routinely behaved for centuries as though they were different from everyone else in Tamil Nadu."
They were different by culture, lifestyle they didn't "behave" to pretend. But tell me, why did the DK's anti-brahmin movement put the load of caste practices on brahmins? Today, brahmins hardly exist in Tamil Nadu, there is still poverty, still casteism.
I agree that TBs did many social evils, and that they should have given space to others, and treated them like humans. But the mind-poisioning of DK/DMK lies in the fact that they didn't speak of casteism as the evil, they separated brahmins from the rest when many non-brahmin upper castes had caste discrimination practices too. A good thing would have been to condemn the practice, not isolate a community.
"all the NBs joined together and agreed, yes you are different, as AIT says so, you guys invaded us."
All NBs wouldn't have done this if the DK propaganda against brahmins didn't. There is also aversion is to the fact that TB have some people among them who are light-skinned. This is not because of any "aryans", these people came from north brahmin groups in later times.
DK/DMK in their anti-brahminism cannot own up to actual history, or the legacy of tamil brahmins in various fields.
"Genetic studies show the highest Brahmin to the lowest Dalits share a high degree of commonality of X chromosome pattern in the DNA showing descent from common pool of mothers. Such studies also seem to suggest some high-caste Hindus and Muslims share common patriarchy with central Asian tribes or something close."
It is true that genetic outsiders came and blended into our culture before some became upper castes. But there is no study that speaks of a huge difference. Most Muslims in India are converts, btw. People came into India throughout history, not only as invaders. I have come across south brahmins who are very dark and very fair too. Genetic studies also aren't consistent in these claims because their results depend on the samples they take. You will be able to find both types of studies ones that agree with your claim and others that say there was no major influx, and that even Dalit populations have huge section with foreign genetic markers.
"Now TBs are upset."
Yes, because the ruling fails to acknowledge that we are Tamilians. My friend (also an Iyer) was speaking in sympathy of Srilankan Tamils, my mother considers Tamil language like her own blood, but I need to assure both these people that the Tamil government considers them outsiders.
DK/DMK care two hoots about our sympathies to our land or culture - it doesn't matter to them what we like of Tamil culture, or what we historically contributed to it.
I recently visited TN some months ago. I stayed at my mom's cousin's place (a DMK supporter, atheist), we had debates given that he and I shared different views. He perfected fitted the self-hating, self-rebuking version of person from brahmin family who had been made to feel that every misery in the country (or TN) started and ended with brahmins. I told him caste system has been practiced by so many groups, DK/DMK poisoned people's mind by isolating one community.
To the DMK, there was not one good brahmin, brahmins contributed nothing to Tamil society. Today, the Maharashtra government is doing this by removing the statue of Kondadev, Shivaji's mentor merely because he was a brahmin. Is it fair?
On the other hand, upper caste non-brahmins have escaped the whole blame of our society's failures, which are conveniently placed on the brahmins. Why didn't the DK, or DMK care about addressing that? Periyar is himself an upper caste. I really don't deny that brahmins were in good part responsible, as a community for social evils, but there is a manner of handling social problems.
"They say AIT is what the Britishers used to divide the ever so harmonious social landscape that existed pre-British."
haha..the landscape of India was divided when British came. AIT was devised when the British saw us uniting and understanding the idea of Indian nationalism - this is when they put AIT to picture, so as to build the divide again. It still remains in Indian politics. Exactly what the Hindutva does to the Muslims - branding them as foreigners, DK/DMK does to brahmins.
"But, fully assimilating and becoming an indistinguishable and integral part of Tamil society will make all our lives better."
And who decides what being part of Tamil society is? At what point in history was our lifestyle considered contrary to being Tamil?
I agree that a lot of change has to come in our societies thinking, but it hardly means everything else in TN society is going to be perfect without us. TBs have contributed a great deal too, speaking of just the social evils is unfair. The motive for any progressive party would have been to handle to destroy the issue, not a community.
Regards,
Vivek.
. The light skin superiority mentality is quite common among TBs and upper caste NBs as well. 
