Question on astrology - why do we have to bribe the gods?

[sunita]

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My brother bought the 2014 horoscope magazine yday and i was going through it when this struck me.

Why do we have to bribe the gods? After an astro outlook, 99% of the time, most of the astrologers say do this pooja or recite this slokam or chant this mantra etc...

Or they say go to this temple and do archana for this deity etc..

Why?

It is like the Govt office syndrome.. If you want your files to be moved, then take care of us...

 

[renuka]

Dear Sunita,

Actually if one wants to believe in astrology then one might need to pay fees for all those in the payroll right from the astrologer,shopkeeper who sells puja items,right up to the priest etc...but if one choose to believe in God.. one does not have follow the terms and conditions of the astrological contract..after all in Bhagavad Geeta Lord Krishna does keep it simple :

TEXT 26​

patram puspam phalam toyam
yo me bhaktya prayacchati
tad aham bhakty-upahrtam
asnami prayatatmanah​

​

TRANSLATION​

If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.

 

[sravna]

My brother bought the 2014 horoscope magazine yday and i was going through it when this struck me.

Why do we have to bribe the gods? After an astro outlook, 99% of the time, most of the astrologers say do this pooja or recite this slokam or chant this mantra etc...

Or they say go to this temple and do archana for this deity etc..

Why?

It is like the Govt office syndrome.. If you want your files to be moved, then take care of us...

Hi,

There are two ways in my view in which your actions in the past births get neutralized. One is by the laws of karma which automatically by appropriate reactions offsets your pasts actions. The other is by conscious effort. That means when you identify a spiritual truth being your actions in the past birth through something like astrology you may genuinely feel bad about it and want to set it right. So you do something like chanting mantras, praying to a deity which have the power to offset your past actions and hence rid you of the bad effects.

The main thing is , is your genuine feelings to offset the effects of your past actions. After all karma operates only to make you realize your mistakes. So the result is the same in both the cases. This is only my view. So it is not a bribe but only an alternate way to rid of the karma with the help of the divine forces.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sunita,

Actually if one wants to believe in astrology then one might need to pay fees for all those in the payroll right from the astrologer,shopkeeper who sells puja items,right up to the priest etc...but if one choose to believe in God.. one does not have follow the terms and conditions of the astrological contract..after all in Bhagavad Geeta Lord Krishna does keep it simple :

TEXT 26​

patram puspam phalam toyam
yo me bhaktya prayacchati
tad aham bhakty-upahrtam
asnami prayatatmanah​

​

TRANSLATION​

If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.

As Renuka says, there is nothing like total submission to God. But the help of astrology is a lower level way of accomplishing the same and even then I think your genuineness matters.

 

[sunita]

Thank you for the replies.
But what if the person is not a spiritual person or does not believe in god?

My brother is not a great believer in god. He rarely goes to temple and does not have great interest in those things. But when we consulted a few astrologers, they wanted him to go to a temple or recite a slokam. He refused to do both. But as family, we are worried for him.

What to do then?

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

My brother bought the 2014 horoscope magazine yday and i was going through it when this struck me.

Why do we have to bribe the gods? After an astro outlook, 99% of the time, most of the astrologers say do this pooja or recite this slokam or chant this mantra etc...

Or they say go to this temple and do archana for this deity etc..

Why?

It is like the Govt office syndrome.. If you want your files to be moved, then take care of us...

Please see this discussion

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philosophy-traditions/6138-trying-bribe-god.html

 

[renuka]

Thank you for the replies.
But what if the person is not a spiritual person or does not believe in god?

My brother is not a great believer in god. He rarely goes to temple and does not have great interest in those things. But when we consulted a few astrologers, they wanted him to go to a temple or recite a slokam. He refused to do both. But as family, we are worried for him.

What to do then?

Dear Sunita,

A person might not have believe in God but he surely has belief in himself.

As we know that our True Self is no different from God..so in the technical sense no one is really an Atheist/Agnostic or a part time believer in God.

As long as your brother does no harm to others or to himself and leads a good life..there is really nothing to worry too much.

If he is a confidant person..let him remain so..if you try to make him do something he is not comfortable with he might not be happy.

 

[sangom]

Thank you for the replies.
But what if the person is not a spiritual person or does not believe in god?

My brother is not a great believer in god. He rarely goes to temple and does not have great interest in those things. But when we consulted a few astrologers, they wanted him to go to a temple or recite a slokam. He refused to do both. But as family, we are worried for him.

What to do then?

Whether one believes in god or not, good and bad things will and do happen in every person's life according to some other law not known to human intelligence so far. Astrology claims to be capable of correctly forecasting these but it does not always succeed in doing so. For those who are foolish enough to believe that doing poojas, parihaarams etc., will change your bad times into good times, astrologers, pujaris, temples, swamijis, the entire religion and its business empire is thankful. But people who do not believe in god, temple, slokam etc., such people should be bold and patient to calmly live through their bad periods. The parihaarams are no guarantee that bad things won't happen or that good things will definitely happen.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Being Omniscient and Omnipotent I do not think God is in need of or influenced by our offers of Gifts. Some of the prayers in Hindi in fact talk of offering what is his to God. I remember a rationalist friend of mine remarking how GOD can take care of us when he could not take of his jewels. This was when we were discussing a case of jewel theft in a temple. My answer was very simple. Just because we value jewels, it does not mean that GOD values the jewels. Why should GOD who is the owner of the Universe bother about some trinkets offered by us?

My question is, in what way is this different from offering money to a person in an organization for getting something done? When you offer money to a person for showing you a favour you call it a bribe. A person who takes a bribe does a person a favour, which he does not do to others who do not bribe him. By offering money to God we ask him to do us a favour over others. Bribe is given on the condition that the job gets done. The offer to God is also fulfilled only when the job is done not otherwise.

Many a time even the vow is never fulfilled because after all God cannot come and remind anyone of his vow. Only when the person is faced with another problem or wants another favour, does he remember his earlier vow. I remember one instance when a person had offered 1008 sweetmeats to god for fulfillment of a wish. The wish was fulfilled, but the person never completed his vow. After about 10 years he remembered the vow. The cost of the sweet meat had gone up during this period. So while it would have taken Rs.1000 then it would cost Rs.5000 now. The person was arguing that more than the number of sweetmeats it is the amount that matters and the vow will be fulfilled if he offers Rs.1000 worth sweet meats now.

It boils down to bargaining with God. The pity is that this attitude of offering something to God in return for a favour is cultivated from childhood. So when the child grows up he does not think it is wrong to offer an amount to another person for getting a favour. This encourages corruption.

 

[tks]

Thank you for the replies.
But what if the person is not a spiritual person or does not believe in god?

My brother is not a great believer in god. He rarely goes to temple and does not have great interest in those things. But when we consulted a few astrologers, they wanted him to go to a temple or recite a slokam. He refused to do both. But as family, we are worried for him.

What to do then?

Let your brother not be forced to do anything that does not seem natual to him. He is not worried and that is all that matters. I am sure he will face like all the rest of us whatever comes our way.

For those others who are worried about, they him may want to learn and do meditation daily so that their mind does not cause stress. Meditation has been shown to be very helpful to reduce stress ( there are many Scientific American research articles available on line)

All the Best

 

[sravna]

Thank you for the replies.
But what if the person is not a spiritual person or does not believe in god?

My brother is not a great believer in god. He rarely goes to temple and does not have great interest in those things. But when we consulted a few astrologers, they wanted him to go to a temple or recite a slokam. He refused to do both. But as family, we are worried for him.

What to do then?

Dear Sunita,

Again I agree with Renuka's reply that you do not have to explicitly believe in God. Believing in doing good is believing in God. Nonetheless I believe that mantras do have the power to do certain things for you and so also a genuinely done pariharam. The fact that there are many others who benefit by this does not cast any aspersions on the real efficacy of the mantras or praying to the deities. It is up to you to make the whole process genuine by having the right intention and by choosing the right person to consult and so on.

This is not a bribe. You are acting at a lower level and to an extent trying to force things. So this is more bulldozing your way rather than bribe your way. Think why these lower level alternatives exist. This is probably to cater to different levels of spiritual maturity of persons. One who is highly spiritual will directly communicate with the divine and hence does not need any intermediary. For those who are not so spiritually inclined, there should be a way to at least make them orient towards spirituality. Doing pariharams is just a token way of believing in spirituality but it at least puts you on the right side.

The only menace because of this is, you should be aware of unscrupulous people who take advantage of and benefit from these practices.

 

[tbs]

hi

generally pariharam is not bribe....pariharam is like remedy......may be psychological/behavioral action....like doctor prescibes

medicine to cure the pain...sometimes we dont know the pharmacological medicinal properties...still we take many medicines

more side affects than remedy.....its more than mental satisfaction and doing the correct things...

 

[biswa]

You are not not actually bribing God. You are bribing the astrologer .

But that is not to say that God does not respond to prayers ...

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... You are bribing the astrologer ....

It is not a bribe Biswa Sir! It is known as 'service charges'! :thumb:

 

[Raji Ram]

We can find lot of bribes in famous temples! One of my dad's friends used to go till the sanctum sanctorum of Palani temple very

easily, escaping all the long Qs. Reason: His left hand will be filled with hundred rupee notes and given at the right places to the right

person! This is known as 'left-la kodukkaRadhu'!!

 

[sathya_9]

my friends there is no place for commercial trading of exchange of goods when it comes to pray with GOD. Praying God and asking for a boon is nothing but boosting your own confidance. It is pshycologicaly proved that when your inner mind says that i will achieve it , then you are conditioning and warming up yourselves towrds achiving this. It is just like atheletics practicing every day and warming up before participation in the event. It requires a higher order of mind to understand this. Generaly majority of the people could not achive this higher order. They have to be told in simple terms and that is why they are told in name of Pariharam. Unfortunately this has become more commercialy oriented now a days.
sathyan. pune.

 

[Nara]

His left hand will be filled with hundred rupee notes and given at the right places to the right person! This is known as 'left-la kodukkaRadhu'!!

How much are the blessings that can be purchased with a stack of hundred rupee notes worth? How can the theism a la Palani or Thrivengadam that can be bought be of any value? In any case, the absurdity of bribing gods for mitigating planetary misfortune is the least of the problems with Astrology, the more intractable include the utter nonsense of precise planetary positions, some of which are not planets at all and some others are completely made up out of thin ether, literally, being explanatory variables of one's life's fortunes or misfortunes as the case may be over his/her entire life span. It is a great mystery that otherwise rational individuals believe in such utter hocus pocus.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof. Sir,

Humans can ONLY bribe humans and not God/ Goddess! A person who does not know to read will say 'L' is some kirukkal

where as those who know Tamil will read it as 'ta' and those who know English will read the same as 'L'. If we do not know

astrology, we can write what you have written above! The pity is that astrology has become a way to make, rather mint

money, and seldom we find good astrologers! :sad:

 

[sangom]

How much are the blessings that can be purchased with a stack of hundred rupee notes worth? How can the theism a la Palani or Thrivengadam that can be bought be of any value? In any case, the absurdity of bribing gods for mitigating planetary misfortune is the least of the problems with Astrology, the more intractable include the utter nonsense of precise planetary positions, some of which are not planets at all and some others are completely made up out of thin ether, literally, being explanatory variables of one's life's fortunes or misfortunes as the case may be over his/her entire life span. It is a great mystery that otherwise rational individuals believe in such utter hocus pocus.

I would like to mention two points. It appears to me that despite all the lacunae or deficiencies (the utter nonsense of precise planetary positions, some of which are not planets at all and some others are completely made up out of thin ether, etc.) it is possible to consider the planetary positions as rough and ready guides which show, in a very approximate way, the broad outlines of life - may be in a blurred outline. Incidentally, some of the planets are gaseous, with liquified inner cores, but so ultimately is the earth.

Where misuse of astrology or religion starts is when parihaarams are connected to astrologically bad times, difficult periods,doshas, etc.

In this connection, I once had a meeting or chance to consult a reputed astrologer in central Kerala. He belonged to the royal lineage, carrying the surname "Varma" and was affluent. He was also a professor in Sanskrit but, also a confirmed atheist.

He gave predictions about the horoscopes of myself, my wife and children and gave the pluses and minuses. Then I asked him about parihaarams, if any. He bluntly replied that according to all standard astrological texts, there is no section dealing with parihaarams, and, in any case, he did not believe in any parihaaram. Each one of us, he said, will have to go through good and bad times and we must be prepared for these in life. Doing parihaarams only gave some time-passing diversion and a bit of psychological strength till the bad thing actually happens, he said.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Sunita,

Actually if one wants to believe in astrology then one might need to pay fees for all those in the payroll right from the astrologer,shopkeeper who sells puja items,right up to the priest etc...but if one choose to believe in God.. one does not have follow the terms and conditions of the astrological contract..after all in Bhagavad Geeta Lord Krishna does keep it simple :

TEXT 26​

patram puspam phalam toyam
yo me bhaktya prayacchati
tad aham bhakty-upahrtam
asnami prayatatmanah​

​

TRANSLATION​

If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.

Renukaji,

SV sampradhaya goes one step further and says the flower , the leaf etc can be of any origin. In fact it is said that even a cactus flower is okay for offering to the God as long as the bhakta who offers the flower does not get hurt in the process of plucking the flower.

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,

SV sampradhaya goes one step further and says the flower , the leaf etc can be of any origin. In fact it is said that even a cactus flower is okay for offering to the God as long as the bhakta who offers the flower does not get hurt in the process of plucking the flower.

That way even roses can cause injury to the one who plucks it.

 

[Vaagmi]

That way even roses can cause injury to the one who plucks it.

That is precisely the point. While there are sampradhayams in which flowers with fragrance and even a certain color is prescribed for offer to various deities, SVs do not bother about it. If rose is offered without the bhakta getting hurt, if lily is offered without the bhakta getting drowned, if cactus flower is offered without the bhakta getting injured God is pleased with that offer. If there are sufferings of bhakta involved in the offering God is displeased. That is the point.

 

[Vaagmi]

Post # 1 and 9(including the link given there) for reference:

Why do we have to bribe the Gods?

I do not believe there are many Gods. There is just only one God. Why do we have to bribe him is the question raised. The reality remains what it is(unperturbed and unaffected) despite what we believe it is and what we make of it. We may consider something as a bribe because we are used to too much of bribing in life but we should understand that we are using this term here loosely. We are stressing on the subjectivity of the statement and we do not know whether god has accepted our bribe. There is no bargain here either because god does not demand anything from you in the first place. If you create a mouth piece for God in the form of an astrologer or a soothsayer, God is not responsible for that. It is just your head ache to deal with the astrologer.

According to Hinduism you , the atman in a body which is your temporary abode, are to please God the creator. He is omnipotent and omniscient and so there is no hiding away from him. What you are supposed to do(good) should be done without fail. What you are not supposed to do(evil) should be carefully avoided. But God has also given you the freedom to do what you choose and wants you to use that freedom properly. So the akrithyAnAmcha karanam and krithyAnam varjanam both are to be carefully avoided. செய்யவேண்டியவற்றை செய்யாதிருப்பதும் செய்யக்கூடாதனவற்றைச் செய்வதும் பாவம்.
We the “frail” human beings at times commit sins knowingly or unknowingly. When we face the displeasure of God for our commissions and omissions we suffer in this world.

When we chant a manthra or a slokam we say namaha. This namassabtham means எனக்கு நான் உரியன் அல்ல. It indicates self effacement and submission to God asking for his mercy. To write more about this will lead to describing what is akanda namas and sakanda namas , where they occur etc., which are not necessary here for our brief discussion. It is enough if we understand that each namaha reiterates surrender to God and self effacement of the ego of the Atman. This is an atonement for whatever sin we have committed. This is a way of telling God that I am helpless and so have committed sins, please save me, I surrender to you.

Giving a thing to some else can be voluntary or under compulsion. One involves giving with pleasure and the other involves giving under duress. When you are returning home and your car waits at the traffic signal you look outside the window at the girl who is selling jasmine flower and quickly buy a cubit of it. You take it home to give it to your wife. There is no expectation of anything in return. It is just a token of your love and affection. You visit your old uncle or aunt in your village and take with you fruits to offer to them without expecting anything in return. These are done with pleasure without any stress. When you want a water connection to be shifted in your house you pay a bribe to the concerned clerk in the municipal corporation. You don’t give it happily. There is stress while giving it because it is bribe.

To God we offer what is very precious to us-that which we hold dear to us, that which gives us pleasure-because that involves a sacrifice and an admission that whatever we have is all God’s. In SV sampradhayam there is a principle that you should offer what is dear to you to God while to your Acharyan you should offer what is liked by him. When we offer our precious possessions to God we call it நேர்த்திக்கடன், வேண்டுதல் etc etc. When you offer something to God, you actually reiterate to yourself that you are what you are only because of God. And by that sacrifice you try to please God. If God is pleased he gives you the strength to withstand the difficulties. So these offerings (நேர்த்திக்கடன், வேண்டுதல் etc.) are not bribe but an attempt at making a defining statement by Atman. There is nothing wrong in doing that. If a few of us do not understand and reduce this practice to a mere sauda or a trade off with God, it is due to our ignorance and nothing else. All sacrifices have an underlying meaning. In Hinduism we call it நேர்த்திக்கடன், வேண்டுதல் etc whereas in abrahamic religions they call it Qurbani.

Coming to the concern of Sunita in the OP , if her brother does not believe in this practice even after understanding the real meaning of it, then he should be left alone.
This solution of the belief system is not for him. God any way does not bother about the trinkets offered to him. It is we who feel satisfied that we have effectively surrendered to God and that our prayers will be answered. Perhaps Sunita’s brother thinks he can do without that satisfaction.

This write up is not for atheists or those who are not sure about their position vis a vis the existence of God. This will not make any meaning to them. It would be better for them to live in their cause and effect domain happily. This is exclusively for the believers only.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Making a Vow is a well known practice in all religions. The Bible talks about it. But it is not encouraged. It is human nature. Whenever some one is sick the whole lot of relatives go on a Venduthal or Nerchai spree. Grand Mothers are famous for making Venduthal which are difficult to fulfill.

Let us see what Christianity says about this.

The principle here is clear for Christians: do not make vows, either to the Lord or to one another. First, we are unable to know for sure whether we will be able to keep vows. The fact that we are prone to the errors in judgment which are part of our fallen nature means that we may make vows foolishly and/or because of immaturity. Further, we don’t know what the future will bring—only God does. We don’t know what will happen tomorrow (James 4:14), so to make a vow that we will do or not do something is foolish. God is the one in control, not us, and He “works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). Knowing this, we can see that it is unnecessary to make vows and indicates a lack of trust in Him. Finally, Jesus commands that our word be sufficient without making vows. When we say ‘yes’ or ‘no,’ that’s exactly what we should mean.

What does the Bible say about keeping your vows / oaths?

Hinduism also does not encourage these kind of vows for exactly the same reasons which I had stated in my first post. We are expected to perform Homas, do Japa and pray in general.

It may look like hair splitting to many but for religious people who believe in GOD it makes a lot of difference.

When we were small children, on the day of the examination we used to do a lot of Thoppukaranams to Pillaiyar and pray that we should do well in our examination. We did not promise to give him any Kozhakkattai. May be our mothers did.

We lost that innocence when we grew up and started making promises to GOD in return for favors.

I can understand the villagers and other people who are not conversant with Hindu religious practices doing it. Even here many of the Swamijis and other teachers are trying to teach them how to pray and do simple Pujas. I remember Mata Amrithanandamayi teaching the people how to have an image of a Deity at home and do Puja. Swami Chinmayananda was also very keen on every one doing a Puja and praying.

But Brahmins indulging in this kind of practice is strange to say the least.

Though middle men do play a role, it is not fair the put the blame entirely on them.

Let us teach our children to pray to GOD. Let them pray to him for whatever they want. That is what the overwhelming majority of the people do.

But no bargains/bribes.

More things are wrought by prayer
Than this world dreams of.
Wherefore, let thy voice
Rise like a fountain for me night and day.