Satyanarayan Khatha - Is there a redeeming reason.

[prasad1]

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I did not want to post this in religion category. If it offends some people I will delete the post.
My first exposure to Satyanaran Katha was in USA. In India I had not attended a Satyanaran Puja. This puja is particularly ver popular in Andhra, Karnataka, and some northern states.

I am very social and to an extent religious person. I come from the Advaita philosophy side of Hinduism. I am not traditional TB either.

The first time I heard this story, I was aghast, and deeply disturbed. Since that time I had to sit through this story many number of times. It pains me to hear the story, but even more to see gullible people swallow it up with reverence.

SatyaNarayan Katha In English

How cruel and vengeanceful this God is made out to be. He is so petty that at the slightest provocation He punished. This story must have the influence of Islam or Christianity.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prasad,

As you have mentioned, people who have faith in this pooja will get upset, if anyone comments about it.

I attended this pooja in the USA, at my sister in law's house, for the first time. The stories were read in English, for easy

understanding by those who assembled there. I wondered why the Almighty is depicted in this way! He can not be cruel

to those who do not pray him or eat the prasAdham!

But, many bhakthAs perform the pooja in SingArach Chennai also! :hail:

 

[tks]

Sri Prasad -

Modern day rituals of this kind makes two kinds of people: A fearful person who proclaims to be a God-fearing theist and a rebel who thinks Atheism is the answer (though they do not know what the question is )

 

[renuka]

I remember once I was on duty at a temple as the doctor on call for Panguni Uthiram celebrations which was very grand and crowded in a particular temple in Malaysia.
A doctor is put on duty by the government for 2 days there.
So it was my turn for that year.

Ok there was a huge tree in the temple grounds and many people were crowding around it and blocking the pilgrims from walking into the temple too.

Many times announcement was made to clear the area so that pilgrims can walk without any obstacle but no one bothered.

Then finally one person made the announcement that its bad luck to block the pilgrims and to sit under a tree on this holy day and the next second the crowd cleared up.


Moral of the story...sometimes we need to scare people to be good and behave.

So take the Sathyanarayan Katha in same manner.

Its to instill discipline and the fear factor does play a role in instilling discipline.
After a while when we are in the right path we realize that all the fear was just to propel us in the right direction.

People will take kindness and compassion for granted if there is no fear at the initial stages.

 

[sravna]

Renuka,

I think the mind responds to negative forces better when it is under the total control of maya. In that way you are correct that the best to to influence the wicked is by scaring them.

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

Smt.ReNukA has given us a beautiful, practical example of how the satyanArAyaNa-kathA should be viewed. Here is how I would like the episodes of the story to be understood:

• The kathA is not just of karNa-paramparA--aural lineage; it is found in the skandapurANam, reva-kANDam.

• In the society of the olden days, gRuhasthAshrama-varNAshrama-dharma was the most prevalent; this means that principles of advaita was not practiced. This applies to today's society of Hindus as well, as far as the ashrama and dharma are concerned. We cannot blame the householder public for not realizing the principles of advaita, of which the first step is bhaktiyoga for chitta-shuddhi, as shrI AdishankarAchArya has prescribed.

• The greatness of the kathA lies in its prescription that anyone, irrespective of his/her varNa-vibhAga can perform this vrata-pUja. In fact the kathA illustrates in its episodes how people of different varNas were benefited by the vratam.

• When a person undertakes a vrata-pUja, he/she is obligated to perform it to the finish, obeying all the prescriptions. Thus, failure (for whatever reason) to consume the prasAdam at the end of the pUja consitutes an apachAram to the deity. As a worldly example, we might say that when someone proposes a toast in celebration of some other person's accomplishment, if the toaster does not partake the toast, it would be construed as an insult.

• The first link below gives the tAtparyam of ViShNu's different forms:
satyanarayana
Satyanarayan Katha Cover

 

[prasad1]

• The kathA is not just of karNa-paramparA--aural lineage; it is found in theskandapurANam, reva-kANDam.

I have problem with this statement. If it was true why only after 15th century this puja has become popular. With our scriptures anybody can place any event in an ancient book. There is no authenticity.

Please do not say that the other religions practice this way, so it is justified.
I am not talking about getting 72 Virgins, I am for achieving SATCHITANAND.

Religion is not crowd control, You can not make a person truly religious and expect them to achieve salvation by scaring. Guilt might bring a crowd but salvation is a lonely journey.

Moral of the story...sometimes we need to scare people to be good and behave.

End and means both need to be justified. If you condition people with guilt or bribe their religious progress will be stunted and will be lost for future generations.

 

[renuka]

I have problem with this statement. If it was true why only after 15th century this puja has become popular. With our scriptures anybody can place any event in an ancient book. There is no authenticity.

Please do not say that the other religions practice this way, so it is justified.
I am not talking about getting 72 Virgins, I am for achieving SATCHITANAND.

Religion is not crowd control, You can not make a person truly religious and expect them to achieve salvation by scaring. Guilt might bring a crowd but salvation is a lonely journey.


End and means both need to be justified. If you condition people with guilt or bribe their religious progress will be stunted and will be lost for future generations.

Dear Prasad ji,

Sat Chit Ananda is not got over night.It takes may be countless lives and also a certain level of spiritual understanding.

I will give you some examples:

I once was discussing with a relative of mine about the concept of Brahman that there is only One God and she asked me this: "So who is Brahman? is it Lord Shiva or Lord Muruga or Amman?"

You see she was not able to accept the concept of Brahman and was telling me that means all the gods she is praying to is not really God?She didnt really understand even though the concept of Saguna Brahman was also discussed.
So discussion was not proceeded.(BTW she saw the book I was reading me and asked me what its all about and thats how the conversation started.
I wasnt preaching Advaita to anyone)

So PrasadJi..we cant just talk about Sat Chit Ananda on the 1st day of learning religion itself.
All of us learnt A B C first before we got our education in college.

Ok next example:

Last week I was teaching my son the story of Lord Ganesh and made him read up the story.
Then he asked me "Amma I feel there is much more to this story can you please tell me what this story really stands cos I am sure Lord Shiva really would have known who Ganesh was "

So I had to give him the symbolic significance of the story.

I had to tell him that God in the ultimate form is known as Brahman and for the purpose of creation we have

1)Purusha
2)Prakirti(Maya)
3)Jeeva

I told him in this story Ganesh represents Jeeva
Parvati represents Prakirti
Shiva represents Purusha

Ganesh(Jeeva) is a a product of Parvati(Prakirti/Maya) since he was made by her.

So the Jeeva is under the influence of Maya and hence stands guard for Maya and is under Her spell of delusion.

So when Lord Shiva(Purusha) comes,Jeeva who is still under the spell of Maya fails to recognize Purusha and a battle takes place.
Symbolically a battle of our senses.

Purusha at any cost will want Jeeva to realize Him and knows that the intellect of Jeeva is the stumbling factor here and removes the ignorant intellect and replaces it with a head of wisdom.

The elephant head here represents to remove the obstacles in the spiritual pathway just like how when an elephant walks in the jungle the path is cleared.

OK..story over..

My son accepted the explanation I gave him and understood everything well cos he followed up a few questions on Brahman and Maya too.

You see the difference in the two cases..comparing my adult relative and my 12 year old son.


Understanding does not come over night..each candidate differs in their understanding and for having stories like in Sathyanarayan Katha is not wrong.

If someone wants to know more..they will ask you and then the symbolic significance can be explained.

 

[saidevo]

namaste Prasad.

As I said, IMO, Hindu householders are not particular--even if they know--about getting mokSha in/after this current birth. Most of them--and that includes me--are for better and better rebirths to make future lives (specially in my case) more meaningful, learningful and useful.

As smt.ReNukA has pointed out, nivRtti mArgam cannot be entered into unless a Hindu obtains chitta-shuddhi through pravRtti mArgam (that is, karma and bhakti yoga) where he/she learns to relish--and then matures to surrender--the karma-phala to the iShTadevata.

In the increasingly being westernized culture and lifestyle of this modern day of kaliyuga, if we are trying to groom our children straight into the path of dhyAna-vichAraNa, without enabling and facilitating them to enjoy the fruits of devotion and service, we would be doing them great harm and disservice, IMHO.

If happiness is the primary aim of life, then obtaining it with a relationship to our isShTadevata would be the most meaningful and enjoyable way of life, again IMHO.

 

[prasad1]

I am sure, there was similar justification for Crusades.
Slavery in USA, and apartheid in SA.

In India people used to justify Sati, till Raja Ram mohan Rai and others joined to oppose such practice. Same thing with Untouchables. The society has to wake up and accept the corruption and superstitions in the religion. So called intellectuals, must, point out our failings and correct it. So instead of sweeping it under the rug, let us vacuum the dirt. Do we have the courage to challenge the establishment?

Corruption to get more crowd is not a justification. Remember Hinduism is for not getting a crowd.

 

[prasad1]

Sri Prasad -

Modern day rituals of this kind makes two kinds of people: A fearful person who proclaims to be a God-fearing theist and a rebel who thinks Atheism is the answer (though they do not know what the question is )

I agree that guilt/fear drive people away from religion. The growth of Atheism is due to the preachings of this kind.

 

[talwan]

The Performance of Sathya narayana Pooja is as simple as this.
You please the God by doing Shodosa Upachaara(16 types of services)like Dhoopam,Dheepam,Archanam with flowers etc etc.Finally you do the Anga Puja that is HIS BODY PARTS are individually worshipped and Archanam with Flowers.You also give HIM Sweets,Fruits,Milk etc.With the type of pleasing the God we get HIS Grace and we are blessed.
We will praise a Minister,Businessman,Higher Official etc to get some benifits from them.No questions will be raised by anybody.But when it comes to Praising/worshipping/ doing puja to God we will question in different ways.
One step more is the Vradha by which we bring in a Disciple as Renukaji has mentioned.It purifief our thoughts and actions.

Alwan

 

[prasad1]

The Performance of Sathya narayana Pooja is as simple as this.
You please the God by doing Shodosa Upachaara(16 types of services)like Dhoopam,Dheepam,Archanam with flowers etc etc.Finally you do the Anga Puja that is HIS BODY PARTS are individually worshipped and Archanam with Flowers.You also give HIM Sweets,Fruits,Milk etc.With the type of pleasing the God we get HIS Grace and we are blessed.
We will praise a Minister,Businessman,Higher Official etc to get some benifits from them.No questions will be raised by anybody.But when it comes to Praising/worshipping/ doing puja to God we will question in different ways.
One step more is the Vradha by which we bring in a Disciple as Renukaji has mentioned.It purifief our thoughts and actions.

Alwan

So you are now saying that "GOD" is just like Lalu Prasad Yadav. I am sorry My brahman is very different.

I pray for enlightenment and peace of mind. I never pray for material goods or passing an exams. My brahman does not interfere nor do I expect brahman to interfere with Karma. I do not expect my God to play favorites.

Discipline is for mortal. I do not bribe Brahman, I do not think one is expected to bribe to get a shortcut.

 

[Govinda]

I pray for enlightenment and peace of mind. I never pray for material goods or passing an exams. My brahman does not interfere nor do I expect brahman to interfere with Karma. I do not expect my God to play favorites..

you have some contradictions here!

If your Brahman doesn't interfere, Who do you pray for Enlightenment? If the God/Brahman don't play favorites, then how do you expect Enlightenment for your effort? How are Enlightenment and Peace of Mind similar or different?

 

[Govinda]

How cruel and vengeanceful this God is made out to be. He is so petty that at the slightest provocation He punished. This story must have the influence of Islam or Christianity.

First thing, any comparison between Hinduism and Abrahamic faiths would be considered dis-proportionate.

I browsed thru the net and understand these stories were of the Suta Maharishi ref. Skanda Purana.

First of all, these kinds of Vrata/Pujas are considered 'Kamya Karma', performed for some personal (time specific) benefits, like the Putra kAmeshti etc. All these are equally valid as per our shAstrAs, and derive benefits, but one should also bear the consequences of them *& without them) (as they do not involve complete Surrender to the Almighty - Gita 18:66).

Everyone is left on their own, based on their Karma Phala/Result of actions. When such kAmya karmAs are being done, the God/Almighty gets pleased and grants the blessings that are requested. When this special privilege is out, you are on your own foot/Karma phala.

How can you blame the Govt. or Trust, when you voluntarily retired from them? If you have taken a loan from the Govt. to ease out, you are obliged to re-pay, else you are responsible for accruing interest? 'KAmya Karmas' are similar to them. Those who can lead a responsible or simple or contented life on their own, are not after these loans/trusts, and are not affected when it expires. Those are the ones who do their Yagnas (nish-kAmya karmas, done as obligatory and not on convenience).

Thus. Bhagavat Gita has a clear instructions for not dealing with our own karma phala.
"O son of Kunti, all that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all austerities that you may perform, do it as an offering unto Me."
"In this way you will be freed from all reactions to good and evil deeds, and by this principle of renunciation you will be liberated and come to Me."
Hence, if one can take care of one's problems other than the time of Puja or at all other times, should bear the brunt of it without any grumbling. Those spectators being sympathetic to those 'failed' karmIs, equally lack logic.

 

[tks]

Dear Prasad ji,

Sat Chit Ananda is not got over night.It takes may be countless lives and also a certain level of spiritual understanding.

I will give you some examples:

I once was discussing with a relative of mine about the concept of Brahman that there is only One God and she asked me this: "So who is Brahman? is it Lord Shiva or Lord Muruga or Amman?"

You see she was not able to accept the concept of Brahman and was telling me that means all the gods she is praying to is not really God?She didnt really understand even though the concept of Saguna Brahman was also discussed.
So discussion was not proceeded.(BTW she saw the book I was reading me and asked me what its all about and thats how the conversation started.
I wasnt preaching Advaita to anyone)

So PrasadJi..we cant just talk about Sat Chit Ananda on the 1st day of learning religion itself.
All of us learnt A B C first before we got our education in college.

Ok next example:

Last week I was teaching my son the story of Lord Ganesh and made him read up the story.
Then he asked me "Amma I feel there is much more to this story can you please tell me what this story really stands cos I am sure Lord Shiva really would have known who Ganesh was "

So I had to give him the symbolic significance of the story.

I had to tell him that God in the ultimate form is known as Brahman and for the purpose of creation we have

1)Purusha
2)Prakirti(Maya)
3)Jeeva

I told him in this story Ganesh represents Jeeva
Parvati represents Prakirti
Shiva represents Purusha

Ganesh(Jeeva) is a a product of Parvati(Prakirti/Maya) since he was made by her.

So the Jeeva is under the influence of Maya and hence stands guard for Maya and is under Her spell of delusion.

So when Lord Shiva(Purusha) comes,Jeeva who is still under the spell of Maya fails to recognize Purusha and a battle takes place.
Symbolically a battle of our senses.

Purusha at any cost will want Jeeva to realize Him and knows that the intellect of Jeeva is the stumbling factor here and removes the ignorant intellect and replaces it with a head of wisdom.

The elephant head here represents to remove the obstacles in the spiritual pathway just like how when an elephant walks in the jungle the path is cleared.

OK..story over..

My son accepted the explanation I gave him and understood everything well cos he followed up a few questions on Brahman and Maya too.

You see the difference in the two cases..comparing my adult relative and my 12 year old son.


Understanding does not come over night..each candidate differs in their understanding and for having stories like in Sathyanarayan Katha is not wrong.

If someone wants to know more..they will ask you and then the symbolic significance can be explained.

Dr Renu -

I liked the way you answered your son's question. Often underlying teaching of the symbolism has been lost or forgotten and the literal meaning is taken as truth which may seem absurd when viewed from the lens of today's life.

We grow up in an age when people want to the know a bit more. If the practice of reading the Sathyanarayana Katha was also followed by reading of symbolic significance the whole story might be deemed more beneficial in my view.

Otherwise a reader is exposed to a vengeful God who is waiting so people can surrender and offer all kinds of wealth for being worshiped ..


A key message of our teaching is that 'end does not justify the means'. In fact it is all about the means (dharma) and nothing but the means regardless of the end (results) . This fact does not come out in the practice of reading Katha in English.

Another message is the literal story reading could evoke fear and all our teachings stress how there is nothing to fear in Life.

Let me (again) quote Swami Vivekananda's words on Fear (a paragraph I had to memorize in middle school to participate in a mandatory competition )

• Strength, strength is what the Upanishads speak to me from every page. This is the one great thing to remember, it has been the one great lesson I have been taught in my life; strength, it says, strength, O man, be not weak.
• Everything that can weaken us as a race we have had for the last thousand years. It seems as if during that period the national life had this one end in view. viz., how to make us weaker and weaker, till we have become real earthworms crawling at the feet of every one who dares to put his foot on us.
• Therefore, my friends, as one of your blood, as on that lives and dies with you, let me tell you that we want strength, strength and every time strength. And the Upanishads are the great mine of strength. Therein lies strength enough to invigorate the whole world; the whole world can be vivified, made strong, enerzied through them.
• They will call with trumpet voice upon the weak, the miserable, and the downtrodden of all races, all creeds and all sects to stand on their feet and be free. Freedom, physical freedom, mental freedom, and spiritual freedom are the watchwords of the Upanishads.
• What I want is muscles of iron and nerves of steel, inside which dwells a mind of the dame material as that of which thunderbolt is made. Strength, manhood, Ksharravirya, Brahma-teja.
• All power is within you; you can do anything and everything. Believe in that; do not believe that you are weak; do not believe that you are half-crazy lunatic, as most of us believe now-a-days. You can do anything and everything, without even the guidance of any one. All power is there. Stand up and express the divinity within you.
• Your country requires heroes; be heroes. Stand firm like a rock. Truth always triumphs. What India wants is a new electric fire to stir up a fresh vigor in the national veins. Be brave, be brave; man dies but once. My disciples must not be cowards. I hate cowardice. Keep up the deepest mental poise; take not eve the slightest notice of what puerile creatures may be saying against you. Indifference! Indifference! Indifference! Bear in mind the eyes are two in number, and so the ears, but the mouth is but one. All great undertaking are achieved through mighty obstacles. Put forth your manly effort. Wretched people under the grip of lust and gold deserve to be looked upon with indifference.
• What makes you weep, my friend? In you is all power. Summon up your all powerful nature, oh, mighty one! and this whole universe will lie at your feet. It is the Self alone that is predominates and not matter. It is those foolish people who identify themselves with their bodies that piteously cry, 'Weak, weak, we are weak.' What the nation wants is pluck and scientific genius.We want great spirit, tremendous energy and boundless enthusiasm,; no womaishness will do. It is the medicine which the ignorant must have when oppressed by the learned. And it is the medicine that sinner must have when tryannized over by other sinners.
• Stand up, be bold, be strong. Take the whole responsibility on your own shoulders, and know that your are the creator of your own destiny. All the strength and succor you want is within yourselves. Therefor make your own future.
• Thinking all the time that we are diseases, will not cure us; medicine is necessary . Being reminded of weakness does not help much. Give strength; and strength does not come by thinking of weakness all the time. The remedy for weakness is not brooding over weakness, but thinking of strength.
• Either in this world or in the world of religion, it is true that fear is the sure cause of degradation and sin. It is feat that brings muse, fear that brings death, fear that breeds evil. And what causes fear? Ignorance of you own nature. Tech of us is heir-apparent to the Emperor of Emperors.
• Know the all sins and evils can be summed up in the one word-weakness. It is weakness that is the motive power in all evil-doing. It is weakness that is the source of all selfishness. It is weakness that makes men injure others. It is weakness that makes them manifest what they are not in reality.
• What our country now wants are muscles of iron and nerves of steel gigantic wills which can penetrate into the mysteries and secrets of universe and will accomplish their purpose in any fashion even if it meant going to the bottom of the ocean and meeting Death face to face.
• We have wept long enough; no more weeping, but stand on your feet and be men . It is a man making religion that we want. It is man making theories that we want. It is man making education all round that we want. And here is the test of truth anything that makes you weak physically, intellectually and spiritually reject as poison; there is no life in it, it cannot be true. Truth is strengthening. Truth is purity,. Truth is all knowledge. Truth must be strengthening, must be enlightening , must be invigorating.
• We speak of many things parrot like, but never do them; speaking and not doing has become a habit with us. What is the cause of that ? Physical weakness. This sort of weak brain is not able to do anything. We must strengthen it. First of all our young men must be strong. Religion will come afterwards. YOu will be nearer to Heaven through football than through a study of the Gita. You will understand Gita better with your biceps, you muscles, a little stronger. YOu will understand the mighty genius and the mighty strength of Krishna better with a little of strong blood in you. You will understand the Upanishads better and the glory of the Atman when your body; stands firm upon your feet and you feel yourselves as men.
• What we want is vigor in the blood, strength in the nerves, iron muscles and nerves of steel, not softening namby pamby ideas.
  Be moral, be brave, be a heart whole man strictly moral, brave unto desperation. Don't bother your head with religious theories; cowards only sin, brave men never. Try to love anybody and everybody.
• I have never spoken of revenge. I have always spoken of strength. DO we dream of revenging ourselves on this drop of sea spray? But is a great thing to a mosquito!
• Get up, and set your shoulder to the whee. how long is this life for? As you have come into this world, leave some mark being. Otherwise where is the difference between you and the trees and stones? -- they too come into existence, decay and die.
• Be bold! My children should be brave, above all. Not the least compromise on any account. Preach the highest truths broadcast. Do not fear of losing your respect or of causing unhappy friction.Rest assured that if you serve truth in spite of temptations to forsake it, you will attain, a heavenly strength, in the face of which men will quail to speak before you things which you don not believe to be true. People would be convinced of what you would say to them if you can strictly serve truth for fourteen years continually, without swerving from it.
  It is only in our scriptures that this adjective is give to The Lord-Abhih,Abhih, We have to become Abhih, fearless and our task will be done.

Source: Quotes--Swami Vivekananda

 

[tks]

I am very social and to an extent religious person. I come from the Advaita philosophy side of Hinduism. I am not traditional TB either.

Sri Prasad -

Without offering further explanation (big topic areas) let me assert two points. If interested in the points a reader is welcome to pursue own research through a qualified teacher.

1. Advaita Vedanta is not a Philosophy
2. Advaita includes Dvaita - though opposing words in literal interpretation they co-exist

Regards

 

[prasad1]

Mr, tksji,
The Vivekananda quotes was great.
I did not understand the next post, I guess I am not in the same plane as you and Renu.
How is it related to putting guilt/fear as motivation for apparent devotion?

 

[Raji Ram]

IMHO, threatening people will not increase the devotion. If the devotion will give benefits, automatically people will accept it.

It is human nature! If the devotion is to be done following some important rules, failing which, those who perform will face very

bad consequences, that type of devotion might not increase! :whip:

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

We Hindus have a phrase bhaya bhakti that we teach to our children for the attitude they must form towards God. Bhakti yoga has many bhavas, but since children are not matured enough, we teach them to fear God and behave themselves. The attitude of fear works in two ways: one, it motivates them to be good and do good. Two it makes them revere God. This is why parents often tell their young kids that if they don't behave themselves the Swami will nick their eyes! As they grow older, the children adopt their own natural bhakti bhava and relate to their personal God.

*****

In the karma mArga--path of karma, bhaya/bhayana--fear, of the known and unknown, because of the perception of duality is obvious. In the jnAna mArga, there is no duality, so there is no fear.

In between these two paths, is the bhakti mArga, where bhaya/bhayana--fear, has a role to play. This is the reason Hindus use a popular term 'bhaya-bhakti' or 'bhayana-bhakti' for children as well as seekers. And bhaya-bhakti is expressed both as an expression of awe for the might of BhagavAn--God, and for removal of fear from the hearts of the bhakta.

There are two classifications of bhakti: mukhya--primary and gauNa--secondary. The type of bhakti we normally express through pujas and rituals is gauNa bhakti, while bhagavat-smaraNa--thinking of God, at all times with indescribable love is mukhya bhakti, which requires no rituals to reinforce devotion.

RUpa GosvAmi classifies mukhya bhakti under five rasas--tastes/flavours:

• santa--neutral/passive, dAsya--servitude, sAkhya--friendship, vAtsalya--parental love, and mAdhurya--sweetness/transcendental love. These rasas are arranged in an ascending order.

and gauNa bhakti under seven rasas:

• hAsya--humour, adbhuta--wonder, vIra--chivalry, kAruNya--compassion, raudra--anger, bhayanaka--fear, and bIbhatsa--disguest

and goes on to explain how these seven gauNa-rasas are compatible or incompatible with the five mukhya-rasas. For more details,
Jaiva Dharma -- Chapter 30
Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila Chapter 19 Verse 187

Thus, the point is that bhayanaka--fear, although a gauNa-rasa, plays an important part in bhakti-mArga, with a view to yoke the bhakta in dharma and reverential love for God.

IMHO, threatening people will not increase the devotion. If the devotion will give benefits, automatically people will accept it.

It is human nature! If the devotion is to be done following some important rules, failing which, those who perform will face very

bad consequences, that type of devotion might not increase! :whip:

 

[C RAVI]

Wonderful post #20, Shri Saidevo....

Perfect and clear wording matters to covey a message effectively. Hats off to your knowledge and skills..

 

[talwan]

Dear Prasadji,
The topic of the thread is 'Satyanarayan Khatha - Is there a redeeming reason.'
It is not Brahman of your like or my like.
I had mentioned 'We will praise a Minister,Businessman,Higher Official etc to get some benifits from them.No questions will be raised by anybody.But when it comes to Praising/worshipping/ doing puja to God we will question in different ways.'

this has not been answered, instead it is interpreted as 'So you are now saying that "GOD" is just like Lalu Prasad Yadav.'Pl, answer my question instead of circumventing it with some inerpretations.

Discipline is an orderly way of doing/performing a thing.It is interpreted as 'Discipline is for mortal. I do not bribe Brahman, I do not think one is expected to bribe to get a shortcut.'

Discipline is not a thing which can be obtained in exchange of a bribe.It is a practice of orderliness in our actions.
Hope to get some feedback.
Alwan

So you are now saying that "GOD" is just like Lalu Prasad Yadav. I am sorry My brahman is very different.

I pray for enlightenment and peace of mind. I never pray for material goods or passing an exams. My brahman does not interfere nor do I expect brahman to interfere with Karma. I do not expect my God to play favorites.

Discipline is for mortal. I do not bribe Brahman, I do not think one is expected to bribe to get a shortcut.

 

[ozone]

I agree that guilt/fear drive people away from religion. The growth of Atheism is due to the preachings of this kind.

Such reactions generally are attributed to inadequate or superficial exposure to the religion and traditions. If the belief is sound and well grounded the guilt or fear would help in getting more closer, not falling apart.
The current well being that encourages one to think liberally, or the half hearted-ness of the people (such as elders) from whom the experience is received usually promote such changes.

 

[tks]

Mr, tksji,
The Vivekananda quotes was great.
I did not understand the next post, I guess I am not in the same plane as you and Renu.
How is it related to putting guilt/fear as motivation for apparent devotion?

Sri Prasad -

We are all seekers of knowledge and hence in the same plane in that sense ..

I do not think that the original story was intended to put guilt/fear in a person though the way it is practiced today it might have that effect.

In Vedic vision, Isvra is personification of the order in the universe including physical laws. Actions arising out of free will have consequences determined by the laws of nature. I have a choice to lift one end of a stick but cannot prevent the other part of the stick from being lifted. This is obvious but when one goes against their word or otherwise act with low integrity it seems we could get away with it since the laws about interactions of the beings are not seemingly visible like some physical laws are.

Isvara as embodiment of the end to end order can be thought of as resulting in consequences and hence generalized as giver of the results of actions of free will. This is illustrated in the Katha but not the way it is brought out in the ritual without further explanation.

Since your original post started out saying that you are follower of Advita and hence you cannot relate to rituals of this kind (using my words to express what you may have meant) I wanted to assert that Advita and Dvita are not opposing concepts but that is huge topic by itself (to be understood properly only with the help of a qualified teacher).

 

[tks]

namaste everyone.

We Hindus have a phrase bhaya bhakti that we teach to our children for the attitude they must form towards God. Bhakti yoga has many bhavas, but since children are not matured enough, we teach them to fear God and behave themselves. The attitude of fear works in two ways: one, it motivates them to be good and do good. Two it makes them revere God. This is why parents often tell their young kids that if they don't behave themselves the Swami will nick their eyes! As they grow older, the children adopt their own natural bhakti bhava and relate to their personal God.

*****

In the karma mArga--path of karma, bhaya/bhayana--fear, of the known and unknown, because of the perception of duality is obvious. In the jnAna mArga, there is no duality, so there is no fear.

In between these two paths, is the bhakti mArga, where bhaya/bhayana--fear, has a role to play. This is the reason Hindus use a popular term 'bhaya-bhakti' or 'bhayana-bhakti' for children as well as seekers. And bhaya-bhakti is expressed both as an expression of awe for the might of BhagavAn--God, and for removal of fear from the hearts of the bhakta.

There are two classifications of bhakti: mukhya--primary and gauNa--secondary. The type of bhakti we normally express through pujas and rituals is gauNa bhakti, while bhagavat-smaraNa--thinking of God, at all times with indescribable love is mukhya bhakti, which requires no rituals to reinforce devotion.

RUpa GosvAmi classifies mukhya bhakti under five rasas--tastes/flavours:

• santa--neutral/passive, dAsya--servitude, sAkhya--friendship, vAtsalya--parental love, and mAdhurya--sweetness/transcendental love. These rasas are arranged in an ascending order.

and gauNa bhakti under seven rasas:

• hAsya--humour, adbhuta--wonder, vIra--chivalry, kAruNya--compassion, raudra--anger, bhayanaka--fear, and bIbhatsa--disguest

and goes on to explain how these seven gauNa-rasas are compatible or incompatible with the five mukhya-rasas. For more details,
Jaiva Dharma -- Chapter 30
Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila Chapter 19 Verse 187

Thus, the point is that bhayanaka--fear, although a gauNa-rasa, plays an important part in bhakti-mArga, with a view to yoke the bhakta in dharma and reverential love for God.

Sri Saidevo -

I know you have read many books and are a Sanskrit scholar. I respect you for that

However, I tend to disagree with much of what you have written above.

First of all teaching that there are 'multiple' paths to the same truth is incorrect though many books and teachers do explain that way.
I for one believe that reason and logic has to prevail even to understand those concepts that may very well be proved as non-understandable by logic alone.

In my limited exposure to B.Gita or other related areas I have found that the scriptures always rely on our ability to understand and learn.

In strict sense there is no exclusive thing called Bhakthi path! A Bhakta is doing a Karma all the time. It is hard to be a Karma Yogi without being a Bhakta as well . Here I do not mean Bhakti to just mean worshiping a personal deity.

There are only two *lifestyles* towards seeking knowledge as explained in B.Gita. *Only with unified understanding of all these so called 'paths'* it is possible to explain any of these one 'paths' properly. Even so following one means following all others!

Putting fear may be a tactic and may work but needs to be removed with proper knowledge soon after. Otherwise it produces dysfunctional human beings.

A poor understanding and teaching of Karma theory has resulted in most of Hindus approaching life with the 'cop out' attitude that it is all in God's hands. They do not assert their free will and preach how to become a loser in life. A poor understanding of Vedic teaching has even resulted in superstitions that is detrimental to society.

So I am against this kind of fear based teaching and they cannot be justified in my view by adding Sanskrit words or by quoting some authors.

Because I respect you as a scholar and a teacher I have to express my disagreement strongly!

Regards