Shaivam more famous than Vaishnavam?

[JR]

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As far as my understanding goes, almost all communities of Hindus are Shaivas - such as Shaiva Pillais, Brahmin Iyers, even other sects of Hindus (Naidus, Goundars, Nadars, Chettiars)...

Whereas Vaishnavas seem to be limited to Brahmin Iyengars only. No other sects of Hindus, atleast within Tamil Hindus, seem to worship Vaishnava gods.

Is this correct?

 

[Vaagmi]

As far as my understanding goes, almost all communities of Hindus are Shaivas - such as Shaiva Pillais, Brahmin Iyers, even other sects of Hindus (Naidus, Goundars, Nadars, Chettiars)...

Whereas Vaishnavas seem to be limited to Brahmin Iyengars only. No other sects of Hindus, atleast within Tamil Hindus, seem to worship Vaishnava gods.

Is this correct?

Facts:

Majority of Naidus and Naickers are vaishnavas.
a good number of gounders are also vaishnavas.
Majority of yadavas are vaishnavas.
Telugu chetties are vaishnavas.

 

[JR]

Oh wow! Didn't know it! Thanks, Vaagmi ji..

 

[sudeshwer]

first of all, I say sorry to the moderator yes I didnt browse tamilbrahmin group for quite sometime due to my busy schedule. now-a-days I am in Melbourne (Australia). came here last month from California(USA). thanks for reminding me. will do browse as much as possible. yr devotional songs section is very great. I like and appreciate. to Sri Sarvam Sri Krishnarpanamastu, I am afraid y r wrong. all Hindus worship Lord Vishnu too. He is universal. mind y I am Iyer - srinivasan

 

[tbs]

Facts:

Majority of Naidus and Naickers are vaishnavas.
a good number of gounders are also vaishnavas.
Majority of yadavas are vaishnavas.
Telugu chetties are vaishnavas.

hi,

i think.... EVR PERIYAR IS VAISHNAVA NAICKER FAMILY FROM ERODE...MANY KOVAI GOUNDERS/NAIDUS ARE VAISHNAVAS...THEIR

KULA DEIVAM IS MODIPALAYAM SRI VENKATESA PERUMAL...EVEN THERE IS VAISHNAVA AMONG IYERS...ADIYENUM THAAN...HAVE

YOU SEEN AN IYER PUTS IYENGAR NAAMAM?....YES THERE ARE SOME IYERS PUT VAISHNAVA NAAMAM...

 

[renuka]

Dear JR,

Most of us just grew up as Hindus with no preference to any specific form of worship.

My parents home had all pics of Shiva,Vishnu,Devi,Ganesh,Krishna,Rama,Sathya Sai Baba,Shiridi Baba,Narasimha,Lord Buddha etc.

We sang all bhajans ..we started off with a Ganesh Bhajan and ended in a Sarva-Dharma Bhajan and then sang OM Jai Jagadish Hare.

It was just as simple as that. Festivals like Krishna Jayanthi,Ram Navami,Shiva Ratri and so on were observed when I was a kid.

 

[renuka]

Dear JR,

Out here in Msia if you ask any Hindu which is their "Mecca" their reply is always Tirupathi.

 

[biswa]

What is the issue with poor ole Brahma?

 

[JR]

Dear JR,

Most of us just grew up as Hindus with no preference to any specific form of worship.

My parents home had all pics of Shiva,Vishnu,Devi,Ganesh,Krishna,Rama,Sathya Sai Baba,Shiridi Baba,Narasimha,Lord Buddha etc.

We sang all bhajans ..we started off with a Ganesh Bhajan and ended in a Sarva-Dharma Bhajan and then sang OM Jai Jagadish Hare.

It was just as simple as that. Festivals like Krishna Jayanthi,Ram Navami,Shiva Ratri and so on were observed when I was a kid.

Dear Renuka,

Really! For some reason I thought you are a staunch Shaiva, don't know why!

Everytime so far when I visited someone's house who is from other communities (non Brahmin), I always see Sri Murugan decking up the walls... so this gave me the feeling all other communities are perhaps Shaiva only!

(Not related to what you said) but , it is educative to know there exist communities among non-Brahmins who worship Vaishnava deities.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Really! For some reason I thought you are a staunch Shaiva, don't know why!

Everytime so far when I visited someone's house who is from other communities (non Brahmin), I always see Sri Murugan decking up the walls... so this gave me the feeling all other communities are perhaps Shaiva only!

(Not related to what you said) but , it is educative to know there exist communities among non-Brahmins who worship Vaishnava deities.

Dear JR,

I do not "pray" anymore.

I think I have written in Forum sometime recently( I think you had not joined yet)...I wrote that I shut my house prayer room down becos I feel I do not want to idolize God outside or inside or anywhere else anymore.

I prefer to feel that God is beyond description and beyond comprehension and beyond anything..therefor praying too is technically not really possible.

So the only thing I can do is just be myself and nothing more.

But to reach this state of understanding I thank what ever I have read and also my childhood and early adulthood exposure to various Hindu philosophy and being of mixed heritage has added to my broader outlook in life.

But my family was never superstitious and my father and mother do not believe in astrology and rituals..so I grew up in a home without rituals but just bhajans and reading religious text.

I still daily read religious text just for information purposes and not with any Bhakti or anything.

Its not a dry existence but just learning to exist as my self finally.

BTW JR I cant help wondering why you started this thread..I am thinking its like American Idol to vote for the most popular singer..so may be this could be like some "Hindu Idol" contest and Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are banking on votes from the crowd!

Then finally when the crowd votes ...both Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu totally disappear and the crowd wonders where They had gone leaving us to realize our folly of thinking there is actually a difference between Shiva and Vishnu and our votes never ever mattered to Them!LOL

 

[renuka]

Just to add JR...when I grew up I also read the Bible and the Quran.I always explored every religion.

 

[renuka]

Dear JR,

A friend of mine who is from the North of India told me that temples dedicated purely to Lord Vishnu is a rare find in the North.

He said that mostly its His Avatars that is Krishna and Rama temples.

He said that temple purely dedicated to Lord Shiva is common in the North.

 

[JR]

Dear JR,

A friend of mine who is from the North of India told me that temples dedicated purely to Lord Vishnu is a rare find in the North.

He said that mostly its His Avatars that is Krishna and Rama temples.

He said that temple purely dedicated to Lord Shiva is common in the North.

I think your friend is right. Most NIs when asked the question of whom they think is the most popular among Vaishnava gods, they will either say it is Rama or Krishna, but a Tamilian or a SI would say it is Ranganatha, since all alwars were mostly singing the glory of Ranganatha Swami. I don't know why there aren't dedicated temples to Sri Ranganatha Swami in NI. But in contrast to South where one cannot find dedicated temples just to Sri Lakshmi, in NI, they have the Kolhapur Mahalakshmi temple..

btw: I love the NI Jyotirlinga Kshetras (for Shiva), wish to visit atleast one of them in my lifetime!

 

[Iyyarooraan]

"கத்தி போச்சு வாலு வந்தது டுண்டனக்கா டுண்டா...." புளித்த கதை மறுபடியுமா? Whatever it is, about a decade ago as I was at Thirukkadayur and at the entrance (right side) had seen a dart board directing to a Vishnu's 'place'. After darshan to main temple visited this place where there was just a stone, not even sculptured, enclosed on 3 sides by weaved coconut thatches. A decade later the place sported a much cared for appearance and surroundings. In the north this is how bhayyas claim ownership of benami places or plots. Be that as it may, between Shiva and Vishnu, Vishnu sells better.

 

[JR]

Dear JR,

I do not "pray" anymore.

I think I have written in Forum sometime recently( I think you had not joined yet)...I wrote that I shut my house prayer room down becos I feel I do not want to idolize God outside or inside or anywhere else anymore.

I prefer to feel that God is beyond description and beyond comprehension and beyond anything..therefor praying too is technically not really possible.

So the only thing I can do is just be myself and nothing more.

But to reach this state of understanding I thank what ever I have read and also my childhood and early adulthood exposure to various Hindu philosophy and being of mixed heritage has added to my broader outlook in life.

But my family was never superstitious and my father and mother do not believe in astrology and rituals..so I grew up in a home without rituals but just bhajans and reading religious text.

I still daily read religious text just for information purposes and not with any Bhakti or anything.

Its not a dry existence but just learning to exist as my self finally.

BTW JR I cant help wondering why you started this thread..I am thinking its like American Idol to vote for the most popular singer..so may be this could be like some "Hindu Idol" contest and Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are banking on votes from the crowd!

Then finally when the crowd votes ...both Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu totally disappear and the crowd wonders where They had gone leaving us to realize our folly of thinking there is actually a difference between Shiva and Vishnu and our votes never ever mattered to Them!LOL

Dear Doc,

I know you don't want to be called Doc. But I thought it is courtesy for me to address you that way since I was the one who raised objection to it little while ago... I am now writing it to show how much I miss your little insights and tidbits you used to post elsewhere on your day to day functioning as a doctor. It was nice to read them.

By the way, I don't know what to write on your prayer part. I would love to say the opposite (that one should pray each day), but what I will write to support my feeling? I really have no thoughts on this part. As for me, I love to pray each day, I believe that regular prayer over a lifetime enhances one's chakras, reduces one's karmic burden and owing to the grace of god, enables one to overcome difficulties more easily! This is my belief, and besides, I would love to spend a 1/2 hr to show god my love for him, almost like showing love expressively to a child.

Well, I was curious to know how many people really belonged to the Vaishnava sect, I should have titled it as such, something like 'Sects who pray to Vaishnava gods' which would have expressed my thoughts more aptly... I know now the way it is titled it sounds like a comparison match between the 2 sects, but really I did not intend on a poll, I assure you .

 

[renuka]

By the way, I don't know what to write on your prayer part. I would love to say the opposite (that one should pray each day), but what I will write to support my feeling? I really have no thoughts on this part. As for me, I love to pray each day, I believe that regular prayer over a lifetime enhances one's chakras, reduces one's karmic burden and owing to the grace of god, enables one to overcome difficulties more easily! This is my belief, and besides, I would love to spend a 1/2 hr to show god my love for him, almost like showing love expressively to a child.

Dear JR,

Let me share some stuff with you.

Even as a child I prefered reading religious books more than formal prayer.

My brothers used to like formal prayer and my parents were pleased with it but for me it was always dependent on my mood...on days where I felt like attending formal prayers I would sing away bhajans ..on the days I didnt feel like attending formal prayer nothing could make me enter the prayer room.

Even in Diwali day sometimes I never used to join the family prayers and this would really upset my parents.

But even then I still loved reading and reading and reading.

That made me connect better to the concept of God more than formal prayer.

Becos formal prayer at times were sort of expecting something from God.

When I was young I would pray like this 'Hello How are You?"

I just felt like asking God How are You? cos I felt everyone always wanted to help them but no one was concerned about God and His feelings.

Now coming to Karmic burden to be lessened..I feel Karma is my own doing and what ever will be will be.

If we have sinned in some previous birth and if we have to face the consequences somehow I feel we should be brave enough to face it.Running to God to escape from our own doings is like getting a criminal lawyer to bail us out when we know we are guilty.

So I just prefer to live and face life with its ups and downs.

I too have face ups and downs of many kinds but I always feel nothing will be permanent. Everything comes in phases and there is no escape from it.

So we have to learn to deal with this our own way..and facing difficulties only increases our endurance.

When I was young I disliked stories of Devas Vs Asuras..I felt that Devas were whimps and were always not trying to help themselves and were forever running to Lord Vishnu for help.

Such stories makes the human mind shift all problems to God and we do nothing.

That is why I loved the Asuras..they somehow were brave even though they were the bad boys but at least they knew to face the consequences of their actions. So come whatever may and face it ..so we do not have to praise God when things go right and we do not have to blame God when things go wrong for technically God is a witness and does not micromanage.

For me I feel I do not have to show God I Love Him cos I love Him enough to not want to place Him outside or inside or anywhere else anymore.

Its like falling in love..when we fall in love with someone we do not see the beloved as separate from us..the person verily becomes us and we verily become that person.

There is no way to actually locate where Lovers exists...do they exist in the mind or in the heart or in the soul? We can never really tell for sure.

For me that sort of Love Affair where there is no Two but only One is what I could speak volumes about yet technically not really describe it becos words can never convey the experience of the heart.

 

[renuka]

Well, I was curious to know how many people really belonged to the Vaishnava sect,.

Dear JR,

During my stay in India I have noted that it was mainly Iyengars that held on rigidly to worship of Lord Vishnu only.

But I also knew Iyengars males who used to go to Sabarimalai very often to pray for success in exams.

Even my Chinese Male classmates used to go to Sabarimalai.

Ok back to story..besides Iyengars others did not distinctly divide and rule Gods into Shaivaism and Vaishnavaism.

So celebrations like Ganesh Chaturthi/Krishna Jayanti/Navaratri/Shiva Ratri etc were celebrated alike.

In fact in near by our college there used to be a Krishna temple and some of us students used to sing bhajans there at times when there were prayer sessions.

One male Iyer classmate of mine use to sing many bhajans from Shiva to Krishna songs.

I too used to sing bhajans in the temple sometimes and the priest used to allow any song even though it was a Krishna temple.

So I dont really think that Non Vaishnava Hindus really consider themselves strictly Shaivite only.

As I said..out here in Msia even though many Non Brahmin Hindus worship Shakti and Lord Muruga.....Tirupathi is still considered their Mecca.

Everyone feels if you had not gone to Tirupathi you have missed something in life.

I feel overall most Hindus are open minded.



.

 

[krish44]

let us talk of lighter things.

food.

in south india . they say shaiivam to denote vegetarian food.

In north though in pure hindi they say shakahari for veg food, they advertise dhabas catering to vegetarians as vaishno

dhabas. Vaishno food is pure veg food.

similarly many hotels turn veg during navratras twice a year .

saivites in north do not sport vibhuthi across the forehead . mostly its kumkum,chandan paste.

vishnu temples are not common in north-it is lakshminarayana[birla group temples], krishna[ , some rama temples.

In delhi iyengar sect brahmins have built venkateswara and vaikuntanathar temples . even TTD has got a venkateswara

temple in delhi. iyers have got uttara swamimalai -a murugan temple.there are of course many ganesh temples of

north and south indians. most north indian temples are of shiva.I suppose they are larger in numbers.

 

[krish44]

refer to posts of renukaji and jrji

most go thru experiences practising worship of Gods as defined by their families.

but most after going thru various experiences in life discard many rituals and even worship.

some hold steadfast to minimal worship others develop a consciousness to give up on conventional worship and

evolve a philosophy and thinking about reaching God other than formal worship.

very few deny existence of God and but many think of God only if it is absolutely necessary and suits them to lead a

better life

 

[renuka]

Wish vaish wins!

America has voted!

I can almost hear Ryan Seacrest's voice!LOL

 

[JR]

Dear JR,

Let me share some stuff with you.

Even as a child I prefered reading religious books more than formal prayer.

My brothers used to like formal prayer and my parents were pleased with it but for me it was always dependent on my mood...on days where I felt like attending formal prayers I would sing away bhajans ..on the days I didnt feel like attending formal prayer nothing could make me enter the prayer room.

Even in Diwali day sometimes I never used to join the family prayers and this would really upset my parents.

But even then I still loved reading and reading and reading.

That made me connect better to the concept of God more than formal prayer.

Becos formal prayer at times were sort of expecting something from God.

When I was young I would pray like this 'Hello How are You?"

I just felt like asking God How are You? cos I felt everyone always wanted to help them but no one was concerned about God and His feelings.

Now coming to Karmic burden to be lessened..I feel Karma is my own doing and what ever will be will be.

If we have sinned in some previous birth and if we have to face the consequences somehow I feel we should be brave enough to face it.Running to God to escape from our own doings is like getting a criminal lawyer to bail us out when we know we are guilty.

So I just prefer to live and face life with its ups and downs.

I too have face ups and downs of many kinds but I always feel nothing will be permanent. Everything comes in phases and there is no escape from it.

So we have to learn to deal with this our own way..and facing difficulties only increases our endurance.

When I was young I disliked stories of Devas Vs Asuras..I felt that Devas were whimps and were always not trying to help themselves and were forever running to Lord Vishnu for help.

Such stories makes the human mind shift all problems to God and we do nothing.

That is why I loved the Asuras..they somehow were brave even though they were the bad boys but at least they knew to face the consequences of their actions. So come whatever may and face it ..so we do not have to praise God when things go right and we do not have to blame God when things go wrong for technically God is a witness and does not micromanage.

For me I feel I do not have to show God I Love Him cos I love Him enough to not want to place Him outside or inside or anywhere else anymore.

Its like falling in love..when we fall in love with someone we do not see the beloved as separate from us..the person verily becomes us and we verily become that person.

There is no way to actually locate where Lovers exists...do they exist in the mind or in the heart or in the soul? We can never really tell for sure.

For me that sort of Love Affair where there is no Two but only One is what I could speak volumes about yet technically not really describe it becos words can never convey the experience of the heart.

Dear Renuka,

1. Prayer is a very personal feeling, IMO. It should be left to individual discretion to choose to pray or not to pray. Neither can someone from praying camp compel others to pray nor can an atheist or a non-prayer compel those who pray to quit the practice. Everyone takes to different forms of worship and there is no standard 'have to do this way' definitions for a prayer... even reading religious text is a form of prayer only, I think. So is doing Kainkaryam to god in the form of sweeping the temple, making garlands for god, fetching water for god's abhishekam, etc. Even those rituals followed by some communities, such as fire walking, anga-pradakshinam, etc, on special occasions is a form of worship. All this shows us that no one form of worship can be established a standard, anything that makes us contemplate on the glory of the divine and forget our own selves for the time being, is indeed a form of worship. Infact, I am reminded of the story:

Once a brahmin priest and a man who worked as a farmer both died. The farmer reached the heaven but the brahmin priest did not. He asked god, "How come I did not reach heaven? Afterall I called on your name the whole day everyday! The farmer never prayed to you, how come he is in the heaven?". For this god replied, "The farmer was truthful and dutiful in his profession, he worked really hard the whole day, and at the end of the day, once he told my name. Although it was only for a moment, he did that everyday, whereas you - although you did call out my name everyday for the whole time, still you did it only because it was your duty and not because you wished to".

So at the end of the day, it is only who we are as a package that matters, I have thought several times on what factors would determine and influence one's rebirth and what role would praying play in one's rebirth. I get to think that praying is only meant to 'better ourselves as a package' -- so we can also see highly successful and good-natured athiests too!

2. Your saying that one should be strong and not pray to god amidst chaos and utmost difficulties only shows to me that you have been blessed with a good life without facing any undue difficulty so far! I have, though not at firsthand, experienced the pain in others from extreme difficulties (such as mental illness in offspring, death of progeny to cancer, etc) and I tend to think that this is why for the most part, god has given us a weapon called 'parihara' and a structured religion to go to at difficult times. Although pariharas by themselves may not work all the time and will need constant faith and constant effort.

3. I tend to think the opposite about devas and asuras. I tend to think that all good qualities in us, such as patience, forebearence, bravery, knowledge, etc. are really 'deiva sampath' and other wicked qualities 'asura sampath'. I do not think devas were cowards, I rather think that the torture from asuras were unbearable and when devas decided they could not stand it anymore and it was beyond their means to fight, only then did they resort to going to the gods for help. I have heard that when Sri Rama went to the the Chitrakoota and the vana, almost all the sages there were either amputees or had disfigured body parts and facial parts from attack by asuras (and the sages never complained), which is why Sri Rama decided to vanquish all the asuras! You can also find that the asuras always went to their perceptor Shukracharya, for getting a new lease of life and for other boons as well!

 

[JR]

Dear JR,

During my stay in India I have noted that it was mainly Iyengars that held on rigidly to worship of Lord Vishnu only.

But I also knew Iyengars males who used to go to Sabarimalai very often to pray for success in exams.

Even my Chinese Male classmates used to go to Sabarimalai.

Ok back to story..besides Iyengars others did not distinctly divide and rule Gods into Shaivaism and Vaishnavaism.

So celebrations like Ganesh Chaturthi/Krishna Jayanti/Navaratri/Shiva Ratri etc were celebrated alike.

In fact in near by our college there used to be a Krishna temple and some of us students used to sing bhajans there at times when there were prayer sessions.

One male Iyer classmate of mine use to sing many bhajans from Shiva to Krishna songs.

I too used to sing bhajans in the temple sometimes and the priest used to allow any song even though it was a Krishna temple.

So I dont really think that Non Vaishnava Hindus really consider themselves strictly Shaivite only.

As I said..out here in Msia even though many Non Brahmin Hindus worship Shakti and Lord Muruga.....Tirupathi is still considered their Mecca.

Everyone feels if you had not gone to Tirupathi you have missed something in life.

I feel overall most Hindus are open minded.



.

In one other site I visit, people are quite 'sectarian'. There many, many Western adoptees are there and they are either Vaishnava or Shaiva to the core - which means they completely shun topics and participation in each others' threads, and stick to 'their own gods' to the point they have utter disbelief in others'! 2 yrs in that site, and I am now the 'Vaishnavite' when I was rather the 'neutral' before. Members in that site even avoid uttering the names of the gods from other sects!

 

[JR]

let us talk of lighter things.

food.

in south india . they say shaiivam to denote vegetarian food.

In north though in pure hindi they say shakahari for veg food, they advertise dhabas catering to vegetarians as vaishno

dhabas. Vaishno food is pure veg food.

similarly many hotels turn veg during navratras twice a year .

saivites in north do not sport vibhuthi across the forehead . mostly its kumkum,chandan paste.

vishnu temples are not common in north-it is lakshminarayana[birla group temples], krishna[ , some rama temples.

In delhi iyengar sect brahmins have built venkateswara and vaikuntanathar temples . even TTD has got a venkateswara

temple in delhi. iyers have got uttara swamimalai -a murugan temple.there are of course many ganesh temples of

north and south indians. most north indian temples are of shiva.I suppose they are larger in numbers.

This is a very interesting post! Thank you for this, Krish Sir.

 

[biswa]

In one other site I visit, people are quite 'sectarian'. There many, many Western adoptees are there and they are either Vaishnava or Shaiva to the core - which means they completely shun topics and participation in each others' threads, and stick to 'their own gods' to the point they have utter disbelief in others'! 2 yrs in that site, and I am now the 'Vaishnavite' when I was rather the 'neutral' before. Members in that site even avoid uttering the names of the gods from other sects!

Unfortunately I think the members of that site have failed to understand the essence of Hinduism.

 

[JR]

Unfortunately I think the members of that site have failed to understand the essence of Hinduism.

Not everyone, but some members are like that, especially one of the mods.