South Brahmins are Dravidians - where are we from & why some of us are fair skinned

[Jaykay767]

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South Brahmins are Dravidians - where are we from & why some of us are fair skinned

Let me be clear. South Brahmins are Dravidians - they have the same language, follow all customs, rituals, of the dravidians. They are the bearer of all sanskrit texts, Vedas, authored many tamil texts !

Dravidians refer to a mythical continent - Kumari Kandam in their ancient texts written 18 to 20 centuries back & it was taken over the sea in a massive deluge. Recent studies linking Dravidians to the Australian Aborginals - there languages are almost identical, same nasal pronounciation, Australian Aborginals similarly have a legend that says they came from a mythical continent & after the deluge they moved to Australia.

Archealogical evidence suggests that 10,000 to 40,000 yrs back, there was a massive deluge, the end of ice age & some continents were lost !. & more importantly these texts explain at extreme length on how the people of Kumari Kandam lived, 18 kingdoms, the names of cities - "then Madurai" etc.. so NO reason to disbelieve.

Apart from the massive deluge, these texts also mention about a tsunami on the south coast of India - repeatedly in many ancient texts. Recent studies prove that a tsunami did occur approx 1500 to 2000 years ago. Puhar on the coast of Tamil Nadu was devoured by sea.

Tribals always treasured their culture & they carried it for 1000s of generations, so these texts came from there - preserved orally before being written down.

Sanskrit came up indigeneously within the dravidian race - South indian temple inscription - written 18 centuries back - "Nagas gave sanskrit, the languages of the Devas to the Aryas". Nagas are dravidians living next door in Nagapattinam & aryas mean Noble Men. !!. for more historical evidence/context - read my earlier post - Sanskrit is a dravidian origin.

Megasthenes - goes to Patliputra & then goes all the way to the Pandian Kingdom - Madurai. He calls Madurai as Mathura - the land of krishna, explains the caste system (yes, caste system is a dravidian origin!!), talks about a story like Iliad/Troy but much longer in length (Ramayana is the Victor's version, Troy is the Lanka version of Ramayana). So there was NO sanskrit in Patliputra but it existed in the Pandian Kingdom during 300 bc !! Read Indica for the details.

Vikramaditya was a Kannada King & Kalidasa the great sanskrit poet lived in his kingdom. South indian kings were great patrons of sanskrit. Vedas are the texts of these tribals, their Gods, rituals, & customs given over centuries from the Kumari Kandam Island.

Jain texts written 1000s of years back say that Ramayana & Mahabaratam are stories of dravidian Cheiftains in South India. if they are stories of south india, then Bharatavarshe is the land from Vindyas to down south Kerala. All cities mentioned in these texts are in south india - Ayothiapattinam, Kansapuram, Madurai (Mathura), Kasipuram, Sanjeevini Hills, Agasthiyar hills, Vindyhas (Himalayas), Cauvery is Ganga, Triveni sangam - Amudha - Saraswati, Bhavani - Yamuna & Cauvery/Ganga, Pandavapura, Gangavathi (origin of cauvery), Ganga Kingdoms (Kannada kings are called Ganga kings, why north kings are NOT known as Ganga kings), Indrapala (Andhra), - are all in south india. for Dravidian Kings the source of life is 'Cauvery river" & is known in many ancient texts as "Ganga" + combined with the Jain texts saying Ramayana is a story of 2 south indian dravidian kings - clearly indicates Cauvery is Ganga. Puhar the lost city is Dwaraka, Madurai is Mathura (as per Megasthenes, he calls Madurai as Mathura - land of Krishna in 300 bc!!)

Kannada Kings (Maurya & Gupta Dynasty) & Telugu Kings (Kalinga) conquered most of the North India & the dravidian customs, traditions & people were established there. They ruled in the name of Lord Rama & hence established "Ayodhya" in all the conquered lands - thats why you have an Ayodhya in Thailand, Cambodia, North India etc.. Ashoka, Chandragupta Maurya, upto Harshavardhana were all dravidian kings !. Only subsequently they were mixed with the Kushanas, Greeks, Huns, Persians by the various invasions. Hence all the North Languages are a mix of persian + influences by Greek/Huns/Kushanas + dravidian words. Hindi is a persian/arabic language & the language of the Mughals.

Hinduism was revived in North after the 700+ yrs of Mughal rule by the RSS leaders. they named all the places known today - Ayodhya (infact this itself is a dispute among many archealogists), Mathura etc.. only in 18th century, Kumbh Mela is only a 100+ yr old tradition, etc,. why would a north indian fair skinned person - so called aryan worship dark gods - Shiva, Vishnu, Rama & Krishna !!

thats why there was NO temple found under the Babri Masjid - because it was not the birth place of Lord Rama.

Having said this, where do we south brahmins come from ?

Alexander invades India in 330 BC & defeats the dravidian kings in the North. Many of his soldiers stay back after Alexander returns to Greece. North dravidians under Chandragupta Maurya gather together & defeats the Greek Army, Seleucus Greek General gives his daughter in marraige to Chandragupta & brings peace between them. so where are these alexander soldiers left behind ??

The only communitiy in India that claims they are decendants of Alexander Soldiers are the - Coorgi community in Karnataka - they speak a dravidian language called Koda - Mix of Kannada, Malayalam & Tamil. Many of them are very fair but mixed heavily with the dravidians.

In Ramayana, Ravana is described as a "White Man" - Blonde hair (Golden hair like Sun), Blue eyes (eyes like deep blue sea), White Skin (Skin color like the white clouds). Dravidians knew the White Man very well & they talk about them living in their land, and the mixed race. Rama is Dark skinned, Lakshmana is White. etc..

Kannada King Pulekeshi a great worshipper of Shiva defeats Indra from Indrapala (Devas - Indrapala is in Andhra), defeats the Nagas (underworld), defeats all the kingdoms & comes to Kanchi & lays siege. he kidnaps the "lover" of Narasimhavarman (also known as Vishnu).

Narasimhavarman takes the help of the Pandians, Cheras, Cholas etc.. & launches a massive attack on Pulekeshi. He goes to the capital of the Chalukyas in disguise & asks his lover to come with him in the dark night. she refuses & says - burn this city down & rescue me.

So he attacks the City (covered by water on all sides) & burns down a great kingdom.

Jain texts (originate in Karnataka) talk about Ravana as a noble king, Ramanujam from Mysore/Karnataka says Sita was a loose woman in his 100 ramayanas - (you must have heard about the ruckus created by RSS in Lucknow & removed his book from the academic texts).

Chalukyas had extensive contacts with Greek, Egyptian empires. Kannada words are written in Egypt & Greece.

Devas are a dravidian tribe in Andhra & the nagas gave sanskrit the language of the Gods to them. Pulekeshi (Ravana) conquers the entire world, defeats Indra (Devas), Nagas (underworld) etc.. So the Devas, Nagas were mixed with the Alexander soldiers. So thats why Kannadigas, Telugus & Malayalis are more fair skinned than Tamil.

Now this story from Dravidian kingdoms goes to Greece from the Alexdander Soldiers as Homers Illiad/Troy & it is their story as much as ours.

Troy is Ramayana (Identical story lines - wife gets kidnapped & triggers an extra-ordinary war, in which a great kingdom is destroyed), Odyssey are the same as Ramayana/Mahabarata.

So thats why you have fair skinned people in South India, it is a mix of Alexdander soldiers & the dravidians.

However lets be clear, Alexander soldiers are NOT the aryans because there is NO aryan race mentioned in any of our texts. Arya stands for Noble men. If Nagas gave sanskrit the language of the Gods to Aryas, then Sanskrit is dravidian because Nagas are dravidians !! Also Devas are a tribe in Andhra ruled by Indra from Indrapala. So Alexandar soldiers settle in South India as one of the "Dravidian tribes" !!!!

so when south brahmins say they are from North/Vadaku (Vadagalai Iyengars etc..), they are from Andhra & North Karnataka.

Apart from this, there is a also a mix due to the Islamic invasion in South after the Vijayanagar empire falls.

However note, where ever the Mughals conquered, the people there talk in Hindi. for eg. North India, some parts of North Andhra & North Karnataka.

But South Brahmins NEVER speak in Hindi, nor do they claim Hindi as their mother tonque, so they are NOT from North India, or mixed with Mughals !! - Ask any of your ancestors, they will tell you, Sanskrit is their language !!

South Brahmins survived the Islamic invasion, & thats why they are rooted in the dravidian culture, infact they are the bearers of dravidian culture, stories of their Kings - Ramayana & Mahabarata !!

Aryas are the Noble men in each of the dravidian tribes, thats why you have Bramhins in every community all over India.

PS: Pl ignore my earlier post (long back) linking Dravidians/Brahmins to Egyptians. while there were many Dravidian/egyptian trade contacts, there is NO historical records to support any migration from Egypt to South India !

 

[Nara]

Dear Jaykay, Greetings!

Dravidians refer to a mythical continent - Kumari Kandam in their ancient texts written 18 to 20 centuries back

Please take a look at this article: The Lemuria myth. This mythical Kumari Kandam -- Lemuria -- is indeed mythical. Modern scientific research shows continents did not submerge or disappear and that Kumari Kandam/Lemuria never existed.

..."Nagas gave sanskrit, the languages of the Devas to the Aryas". Nagas are dravidians living next door in Nagapattinam & aryas mean Noble Men. !!.... Devas are a dravidian tribe in Andhra & the nagas gave sanskrit the language of the Gods to them.

How would you explain Tolkapiyam referring to Sanskrit words as thisaich chol? Why is Sanskrit referred to as Vadamozhi?

Pl read my posts - Sanskrit is a dravidian origin, South Brahmins are Dravidians.

Jain texts written 1000s of years back clearly say Ramayana & Mahabarata are stories of Dravidian Cheiftains, this is stated by the Archealogy dept of India.

In Ramayana, Ravana is described as a "White Man" - Blonde hair (Golden hair like Sun), Blue eyes (eyes like deep blue sea), White Skin (Skin color like the white clouds). Dravidians knew the White Man very well & they talk about them living in their land, and the mixed race. Rama is Dark skinned, Lakshmana is White. etc..

If both Rama and Ravana were Dravidian kings, then how come Ravana and Lakshmana are white, only Rama is dark? I hope you are not arguing a Greek origin for Ravana and Lakshmana and a Dravidian origin for Rama alone, are you? Surely Ramayana story, if real, must have taken place before Alexander coming to India, no?

Troy is Ramayana (Identical story lines - wife gets kidnapped & triggers an extra-ordinary war, in which a great kingdom is destroyed), Odyssey are the same as Ramayana/Mahabarata.

There are some similarities between Ramayana and Iliad, yes, but lots of stories have some similarities, how can we be sure that they are anything more than mere coincidence?

Let me put it in a different way, we know through archeological research the exact location of Troy, how many times it was sacked, and when. So, it is very possible that Homer was not simply making up a story, or adopting a story from the East, but retelling a real event with a lot of poetic license. Also, how can we be sure that Homer's Iliad is not the original, and that it did not migrate to India and transformed itself into Ramayana?

You also need to consider that Helen was the younger brother's wife, she willingly ran away with Paris, Menelaus and Paris were not the dominant characters in Iliad, Agamemnon was a tyrant, offered his own daughter as human sacrifice for which his wife later murdered him, etc., etc. If we take all this together, looking for any connection between Ramayana, which can very likely be pure fiction, and Iliad, which can be connected to archeological findings, is purely superficial and lacking any merit altogether.

so when south brahmins say they are from North/Vadaku (Vadagalai Iyengars etc..), they are from Andhra & North Karnataka.

First, Karnataka is "mEl nAdu", not vada nAdu.

Many people argue "North" in Vadakalai refers to affinity for Sanskrit among Vadakalai Iyengars -- which you reject, i.e. to you, Sanskrit is from Nagappattinam and therefore not "North". Others argue "North" comes from the strength of Vadakalai Iyengars in Kanchipuram as opposed to the strength of Thenkalais in Sri Rangam. In any case, SV of either kalai was taken to Andhra country from the south.

Aryas are the Noble men in each of the dravidian tribes, thats why you have Bramhins in every community all over India.

Let me cite a well researched, peer reviewed, scientific article that speaks to this point.

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations

Some key findings from this article:

• Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent.
  
• For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians.
• for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians.
• Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans.
• These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank.

Where did this increasingly higher level of genetic similarity with increasing caste rank, to Europeans, come from?

Cheers!

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Nara,

The fact that the Alexander Greek Soldiers came to South & settled here explains the Greek, European influence on the Dravidian Kingdoms, languages etc... Check with any Coorgi or just do a google search, check with the Archealogy dept of india, you will find 1000s of historical tales, legends that they are descendants of Alexander soldiers.

why will any community make up such stories ?? why are North Indian communities NOT saying they are the Greek descendants, show me one folk tale, legend here??

Megasthenes says he heard a story like Illiad/Troy in the Madurai King's court but a much longer version !! when Megasthenes himself says the stories are similar, how can one claim it is pure fiction.

when Jain texts written 1000s of years back (written in sanskrit ) says, it is a story of 2 south indian dravidian chieftains, who are we to say is it pure fictional. unless you tell me, all these historical texts are humbug??

Ramayana is the winner's version of the war, Troy is the loser verson of the war.

Only in South Dravidian Kingdoms - you have "BOTH THE VERSIONS". Jain & dravidian texts says, Sita "ranaway" with Ravana like Helen went with Paris !!
Obiously in a loser version of the war, Ravana/Indrajit (Agmemnon/Hector) are the Gods !!

If dravidians copied the Troy story, why would reverse the entire story & claim Rama (Agmemnon) as God. Troy story is so piognant, a great noble king & his people were destroyed. Only Ravana's descendants (Kannada King Pulekeshi's descendants) can claim they are Gods !!

South temple inscription says - Nagas gave sanskrit to aryas. Nagas primarily occupied Andhra & they are called Naga princes & princesses. so Vadamozhi poings to Andhra, north of Tamil Nadu.

Australian Aborginals say they come from a mythical Island like the dravidians. Dravidian texts talk about such length on the continent, kingdoms, the cities - "then madurai" etc.. No reason to disbelieve. & when we say continent, nobody is saying it is as large as Australia, it is a strip of land/ a num of islands connecting South India to Australia.


when Greek's settled in south india, they conquered all of Karnataka, Andhra & Kerala, some parts of Tamil Nadi & thus came the mixed race. Hence Rama is Dark, Lakshmana, Ravana are white. Valmiki Ramayana mentions that Ravana is White, Hanuman describes Ravana when he goes to Lanka prior to the war.

if Sanskrit is Aryan, why is it spoken in "dravidian tonque", pl research, you have many many western researchers saying it is dravidian.

also if all of you accept Aryan Invasion theory is debunked, what is the explanation for Sanskrit Origin ?

Cheers,
JK

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Jaykay, Greetings!
Where did this increasingly higher level of genetic similarity with increasing caste rank, to Europeans, come from?

Cheers!

North Indians are persians, Iranians who invaded India, they are genetically closer to the europeans,. hence you will find North Indians closer to Europeans, & all their languages are Indo european. !!

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Jaykay, Greetings!


If both Rama and Ravana were Dravidian kings, then how come Ravana and Lakshmana are white, only Rama is dark? I hope you are not arguing a Greek origin for Ravana and Lakshmana and a Dravidian origin for Rama alone, are you? Surely Ramayana story, if real, must have taken place before Alexander coming to India, no?

Cheers!

Hi Nara,

Yes, I am saying that Ravana/Indrajit is Greek origin (Priam/Hector). Alexander soldiers come to Dravidian land & settle in Coorg as one of the "dravidian tribe" !!

Ramayana is a story of 2 south kings - Tamil Rama & Greek Ravana !!. I know this contradicts everything.

But look at all the evidences. The only white people who ever come to India are the Alexander's soldiers. Coorgis claim they are descendants of Greek soldiers. Ramayana written by dravidians talk in detail about the White Man - Blonde hair, Blue eyes, White Skin. This story goes all the way to Greece as their "own culture", because Ravana/Priam was one of their King !!.

Marco Polo writes for Dravidians, the Gods (devas) are all Dark, the demons (rakshasas) are all "White" !!

Map shown in Homer's Illiad is similar to the dravidian land of Vindyas to Kerala. !

This story originates in & around 300 BC. Megasthenes a Greek Historian travels all the way to the Pandian Kingdom & writes at length about the Caste system, Illiad like story but much longer, calls Madurai as Mathura - the land of Krishna etc..

Greeks have similar legend of Atlantis, like we have Poompuhar (Dwaraka) - both were lost to the sea etc..

so by all accounts, the Greek Soldiers settled in South India setting the stage for one of the most historic war in the world - Immortalized as Ramayana & Homer's Troy !!

All this happen in & around 300 BC which is where Ramayana is dated by many historians.

PS: Devas, Asuras, Nagas, Aryas, Rakshasas etc are all dravidian tribes, & the Ramayana, Mahabarata, Puranas & the Vedas are the stories of these tribes !!

Cheers,
JK

 

[Nara]

Dear Jaykay, I am not knowledgeable enough in the theories you propose to argue with you. I only have a few questions. Unfortunately you are not clarifying my doubts. Let me state a few again.

1. Modern scientific research shows continents did not submerge or disappear and that Kumari Kandam/Lemuria never existed.
2. How would you explain Tolkapiyam referring to Sanskrit words as thisaich chol? Why is Sanskrit referred to as Vadamozhi?
3. If both Rama and Ravana were Dravidian kings, then how come Ravana and Lakshmana are white, only Rama is dark?
4. First, Karnataka is "mEl nAdu", not vada nAdu.
5. Where did this increasingly higher level of genetic similarity with increasing caste rank, to Europeans, come from?

I have a couple of new ones.

1. Originally you said Ramayana is about a war between two Dravidian kings. Now you are saying Ravana was Greek. Which is it?
2. You have equated Agamemnon and Hector to Ravana and Inderjit. But, in Iliad Agamemnon and Hector fought on opposing sides, Agamemnon the supreme leader of Achaeans, and Hector the foremost Trojan warrior.
3. You say Iliad was from the POV of the loser, but Homer was not a Trojan, he was Greek.

I hope you will clarify these doubts for me. There is no use giving me your theories, my head simply spins because of these questions. So, please, clear my doubts, then only I can try to understand your theory.

Cheers!

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Nara,

1. Lets be clear. Lumeria & Kumari Kandam are the NOT the same. Pl refer to this URL. Scientific Opinion is divided on this. Since the Ice age, water levels have gone up considerably & many Islands in the Indian ocean have submerged. so you cannot argue that it did NOT exist. Kumari Kandam is a string of Islands in Indian ocean.

I would rather believe it existed, our ancestors did not just make up some stories.

The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : Lemuria and Kumari Kandam

2. Just because Sanskrit is known as Vadamozhi, does not mean it is NOt from the Dravidian land. for kerala, Tamil Nadi is North !! I will get back to on thisaich chol

3. I have explained already. Alexander soldiers settle in Dravidian Land - Coorg as a "Dravidian Tribe" & they intermix with the dravidians. thats why Rama is Dark, Lakshmana is White, Dasaratha could have married a white woman. Ravana is white & Sugriva is White (yes, he is described as white by Valmiki Ramayana). Alexander soldiers were primarily Macedonian but had soldiers from all the other countries where he conquered.

4. Karnataka being called Melnadu comes only subsequently but NOT in Ramyana.

5. If Greeks settled in Dravidian land as a "Dravidian Tribe", why would there not be a genetic similarlity. They intermixed with the other tribes - inter married etc..

new points,.

1. Pl unstd, we called Rama, Lakshmana, Sugriva & Ravana (alexander soldiers) as Dravidian. our anscestors did NOT recognize Greek, they only recongnized tribes who lived in Bharatavarshe.

It is Homer who calls Agmemnon/Greek and Priam/Hector as Trojans.

for us, the entire Alexander troops look like Greek army, but Alexander soldiers had macedonians (Greek) & non greeks from various countries in his command. So it is quite possible macedonians fought along with Rama against (Trojan) the soldiers from other countries in the original Greek Army of Alexander.

2. you are wrong. I equated Rama to Agmemnon, Ravana to Priam.

3. Lets be clear. Ramayana & Troy (loser version) both originate in Dravidian land. Many dravidian/jain texts speak very postively of Ravana. Illiad is a copy of the "Loser Version of the war from Dravidian Land" !!. Homer copies the dravidian texts that say a great kingdom was destroyed. Because this was & its history goes all the way back to Greece.

Also lets be clear - both are the same story with some minor variations.

Lanka & Troy are both mythical cities that are protected by Invincible walls & princes (Hector/Indrajit).

Hector/Indrajit kill Achilles (in the form of patroclus) & lakshmana in the battlefield.

Lakshmana & Achilles come back & kill Indrajit/Hector. Lakshmana & Achilles go to Gods & wear a protective shield to fight Indrajit/Hector without which Victory would have been impossible (read the original Illiad)

Rama/Agmemnon says Sita/Helen was kidnapped. Ravana/Priam say she came willingly. Ravana is known as tripura sundara like Paris !!
etc..

 

[Nara]

....2. you are wrong. I equated Rama to Agmemnon, Ravana to Priam..

Dear Jaykay, You also said "Obiously in a loser version of the war, Ravana/Indrajit (Agmemnon/Hector) are the Gods !!" here.

Anyway, thank you Jaykay, for taking the time to answer my questions. I must say though, my doubts are still there, but I suppose that is my problem, not yours.

Thank you ....

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Jaykay, You also said "Obiously in a loser version of the war, Ravana/Indrajit (Agmemnon/Hector) are the Gods !!" here.

Anyway, thank you Jaykay, for taking the time to answer my questions. I must say though, my doubts are still there, but I suppose that is my problem, not yours.

Thank you ....

Hi Nara,

Oops !!. Sorry that was a typo mistake.

Cheers,
JK

 

[renuka]

North Indians are persians, Iranians who invaded India, they are genetically closer to the europeans,. hence you will find North Indians closer to Europeans, & all their languages are Indo european. !!

Dear JayKay,

What do you have to say about this article:click on the link to read the whole article..this is just one paragraph.


Another consideration is that since the Aryans were centralized in the Gangetic plains and the Himalayan mountains, from there they could have spread east along theBrahmaputra River and over the plain of Tibet. The Chinese, in the form of the Cina tribe, also are likely to have originated here since they have the legend of the sacred mountain in the west with four rivers. The ancient Puranas explain that Manu and his sons ruled over the area, over as many lands north of Mount Meru and Kailas as south. Other Aryans could have easily gone down the Sarasvati and Sarayu into north India. Others went from the Indus into Kashmir and Afghanistan, and into Central Asia. Others went into the areas of Gujarat and Sind, and over through Persia and the Gulf region. This is how the Sumerian civilization was founded, along with Babylonia. From there they went farther into Turkey and Europe.

After spreading throughout South India, they continued down the Ganges by sea east into Malaysia and Indonesia, founding the ancient Vedic cultures there. By sea they continued to China, meeting the Aryans that were probably already there. From China and the orient, they sailed over the Pacific Ocean and finally reached and colonized the Americas. Plenty of evidence of this is presented in the following chapters.
We can see some of the affect of this spread out of India in regard to the term aryan. The name Harijana or Aryan evolved into Syriana or Syrians in Syria, and Hurrians in Hurri, and Arianna or Iranians in Iran. This shows that they were once part of Vedic society. A similar case is the name Parthians in Partha, another old country in Persia. Partha was the name of Krishna=s friend Arjuna, a Vedic Aryan, and means the son of King Prithu. So the name Parthian indicates those who are the descendants of King Prithu. Parthians also had a good relationship with the early Jews since the Jews used to buy grains from the Parthians. The Greeks referred to the Jews as Judeos, or Jah deos or Yadavas, meaning people of Ya or descendants of Yadu, one of the sons of Yayati. It is also regarded that the basis of the Kabbalah, the book of Jewish mystical concepts, as described in The Holy Kabbalahby Arthur Edward Waite, is linked with Kapila Muni, the Indian sage and incarnation of Krishna who established the analytical sankhya‑yoga philosophy. Therefore, a connection between the early Jews and ancient Vedic culture is evident.



Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

 

[renuka]

MORE EVIDENCE FOR THE ORIGINAL HOME
OF THE VEDIC ARYANS
Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

The Brahmin priests and Indian scholars believe that the Sarasvati and Ganges valley region are the origin of Indian civilization and the Aryan society. This can be given some credence when we look at the cities in this region. For example, North of Delhi is the town of Kuruksetra where the great battle of the Mahabharata took place when Sri Krishna was still on the planet over 5,000 years ago. There is also the old city of Hastinapura that was once situated along the Ganges until the river changed its course and swept the city away in 800 B.C. This is the old capital of the Kuru dynasty in the Mahabharata.

Pottery remains have been found near this location that are traced back to at least 1200 B.C. In New Delhi we find the Purana Qila site, which is known to have been part of the ancient city of Indraprastha. An interesting quote can be found in the ancient Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.72.13) which can give us some idea of how prominent Indraprastha had been. It states that during the time when Sri Krishna was on this planet 5,000 years ago, King Yudhisthira sent his brothers, the Pandavas, to conquer the world in all directions. This was for bringing all countries to participate in the great Rajasuya ceremony that was being held in ancient Indraprastha. All countries were to pay a tax to help the performance of the ceremony, and to send representatives to participate. If they did not wish to cooperate, then they would have to engage in battle with the Pandavas. Thus, the whole world came under the jurisdiction of the Vedic Aryan administration.
South of New Delhi are the holy towns of Vrindavan and Mathura along the Yamuna River. Both of these towns are known for being places of Krishna=s pastimes and Vedic legends that go back thousands of years, which are also described in the Vedic literature. Farther south, located on the Yamuna, is the ancient city of Kaushambi. This city still has the remains of massive defense structures from the tenth century B.C. that are very similar to buildings in Harrappa and the Indus region that use baked brick for construction.

TheYajur‑veda (Vajasaneyi Samhita 23.18) also mentions the town of Kampila, which is located about halfway between Hastinapur and Kaushambi. The next city is Allahabad (Prayag) where we find the confluence of the Yamuna and Ganges. This location abounds with importance and Vedic legends that are so remote in antiquity that no one can say when they originated. Then there is Varanasi along the Ganges that is another city filled with ancient Vedic legends of importance. A short distance north of Varanasi is Sarnath, where Buddha gave his first sermon after being enlightened. A four-hour train ride north of Varanasi is the town of Ayodhya, where Lord Ramachandra had His capital, as fully described in the ancient Ramayana. And, of course, there are the Himalayan mountains that have many Vedic stories connected with them. Furthermore, there are numerous other places that could be mentioned that are connected with the Vedic legends throughout the area. (Most of these have already been described in the Seeing Spiritual India sections in my previous books.)

Though some archeologists claim they have discovered no evidence for the ancient existence of the Vedic Aryan culture in this Gangetic region, even a casual tour through this area, as mentioned above, makes it obvious that these towns and holy sites did not gain importance overnight, nor simply by an immigration of people who are said to have brought the Vedas with them. These places could not have become incorporated into the Vedic legends so quickly if the Vedic culture came from another location. Therefore, the argument that the early Vedic literature was brought from another region or describes a geographical location other than India cannot so easily be accepted. The fact is that the whole of India and up through the Indus region was the original home of the Vedic Aryan culture from which it spread its influence over much of the rest of the world.

 

[prasad1]

Through the long and cruel Islamic assault on India, south India became the land of refuge for Vedic culture, and to a great extent remains so to the present day. The best Vedic chanting, rituals and other traditions are preser- ved in south India. It is ironic therefore that the best preservers of Aryan culture in India have been branded as non-Aryan. This again was not something part of the Aryan tradition of India, as part of the misinterpretation of the term Aryan fostered by European thought which often had a political or religi- ous bias, and which led to the Nazis. To equate such racism and violence with the Vedic and Hindu religion, the least aggressive of all religions, is a rather sad thing, not to say very questionable scholarship.
Dravidians do not have to feel that Vedic culture is any more foreign to them than it is to the people of north India. They need not feel that they are racially different than the people of the north. They need not feel that they are losing their culture by using Sanskrit. Nor need they feel that they have to assert themselves against north India or Vedic culture to protect their real heritage.
Vedic and Hindu culture has never suppressed indigenous cultures or been opposed to cultral variations, as have the monolithic conversion religions of Christianity and Islam. The Vedic rishis and yogis encouraged the develop- ment of local traditions. They established sacred places in all the regions in which their culture spread. They did not make everyone have to visit a single holy place like Meca, Rome or Jerusalem. Nor did they find local or tribal deities as something to be eliminated as heathen or pagan. They respected the common human aspiration for the Divine that we find in all cultures and encouraged diversity and uniqueness in our approach to it.
Meanwhile the people of north India also need not take this north-south division as something fundamental. It is not a racial difference that makes the skin of south Indians darker but merely the effect of climate. Any Caucasian race group living in the tropics for some centuries or millennia would eventually turn dark. And whatever color a person's skin may be has nothing to do with their true nature according to the Vedas that see the same Self or Atman in all.
It is also not necessary to turn various Vedic gods into Dravidian gods to give the Dravidians equality with the so-called Aryans in terms of the numbers or antiquity of their gods. This only gives credence to what is superficial distinction in the first place. What is necessary is to assert what is truly Aryan in the culture of India, north or south, which is high or spiritual values in character and action. These occur not only in the Vedas but also the Agamas and other scriptures within the greater tradition.
The Aryans and Dravidians are part of the came culture and we need not speak of them as separate. Dividing them and placing them at odds with each other serves the interests of neither but only serves to damage their common culture (which is what most of those who propound these ideas are often seek- ing). Perhaps the saddest thing is that modern Indian politicians have also used this division to promote their own ambitions, though it is harmful to the unity of the country.

The Aryan-Dravidian Controversy

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Renuka,

yes, went through the entire article.

Sorry to say, there is ZERO evidence to support any of them. all the points are conjectures, some scholars says, others say something else etc.. frankly what does he say here?

first what do you mean by Vedic Aryans ?.

for eg: "Another consideration is that since the Aryans were centralized in the Gangetic plains and the Himalayan mountains, from there they could have spread east along theBrahmaputra River and over the plain of Tibet"

How can one assume that aryans were centralized in the gangetic plains ?. He has to prove who are these people, where they come from, if they already existed there, need to show evidence of that, etc.. where is the evidence ?. Amazing guy, he just assumes - LOL!!!

so what does he mean by Aryan here ? a person of Persian/Iranian Origin or Aryan as a White Man - Blonde/Red hair, Blue/green.. eyes, White Skin or a dark skinned Indian ?

There are NO White Man/Blue eyes, Blonde hair etc.. in the current North India, only persians & Iranians.

what is the evidence that the current river in North India is Ganges ?.

Current Himalyas are the Ice clad Mountain. Ramayana talks about Himalayas where exotic, miracle trees, roots, grow on top of them & that can turn the dead into life !!. Nothing grows in the current Himalayas. Hanuman goes from one mountain to another in the Himalayas & gong through all the trees & herbs & roots bare foot !!. He would have frozen in the current Himalayas long before he could save Lakshmana - LOL !!

another of the neumerous statements - "Mr. Pargiter, another noted scholar, contends that Aryan influence in India was felt long before the composition of the Vedic hymns. He states that the Aryans entered India near 2000 B.C. over the Central Himalayas and later spread into the Punjab. Brunnhofer and others argue that the composition of the Rig‑veda took place not in the Punjab, but in Afghanistan or Iran. This theory assumes that Aryan entrance into India was much later. "

I mean who cares what Pargiter contends, felt, or whatever ?? where is the evidence to support aryans entered 2000 BC ???

Just because some cities are named in North like the ones in the Vedas/Ramayana. Mahabarata doesnt mean anything. As I said earlier, all these were named only in the 18th century & later !! Also the dravidian kings established Ayodhya in all the lands they conqured. Thailand has a Ayodhya established there !!

for Aryan Migration to be true, these people must have come in very large numbers, settled in North India defeating the "existing people in North - either dravidians or aborginals or whoever you specify", forget their religion, adopt our dark Gods - Shiva, Vishnu, Rama & Krishna, create/write in Sanskrit all our texts, stories of our dark gods !!

why would any "very fair skinned people" create Gods that are Dark, worship them, write sanskrit, but pronounce in a dravidian tongue but not in their own native tongue similar to Hindi which they speak even today or Persian or Greek, or Celtic or Baltic or whatever & then create a caste system that discriminates the dark people !!. what a bizzare & Impossible theory. - LOL !

anyways the article is bizarre it says at every step Vedic Aryans & then says all these are existing for 1000s of years & no migration happened - LOL !!

Cheers,
JK

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Renuka,

first off, one needs to go on facts. when Ramayana talks about Himalayas as a mountain on which exotic, miracle trees, roots , herbs grow, then how can one point to the current Ice clad mountains as the Himalayas ??

and given that Sanjeevini Hills are in Andhra (as named by Govt of India - they forgot to change these names - LOL ). Vindhyas have to be the Himalayas of Ramayana !!. Agasthiyar Hills (as named by Govt of India) in Tamil Nadu, Vatapi (as named by Govt of India) is in Karnakta - Agasthya goes from Vatapi (North ) to Tamil Nadu (South) cross the Agasthiyar hills !!

so if you analyze all that I have written, it is based on historical evidences, factual locations supported by tales, legends in that place, exactly correlates to the legend, stories in Vedas, Ramayana & Mahabarata !!

I am NOT the only one saying Bharatavarshe is the land from Vindyas to Kerala. Pl read below.

Naga Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Airavata is mentioned as a region beyond ancient India (Bharata Varsha) at (6,6). Bharata Varsha (ancient India) is mentioned as the southern-most region known to the ancient Indian people. North of Bharata Varsha, is the region of Himalaya.

Two regions known as Pathala (Kerala) and Airavata mentioned in the extreme south and far north respectively were the most important territories in Naga Dynasty. Kerala once known as Patala[SUP][2][/SUP](nether world) is considered as the adobe of Serpent Anantha, the indigenous inhabitation of Naga clan in South

Now refer to Ramayana: Ravana conquers the Devas (Indra from Indrapala), & Pathala !!

Cheers,
JK

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Prasad,

Have seen this note earlier. If I remember this comes Nehru's passage of India.

Again this assumes all these are aryan culture, & they gave it to the dravidians, who in turn preserved them in the south dravidian kingdoms.

for the Vedic culture to be the aryan culture, the aryan migration theory has to be correct !!. If the aryan migration is not true, then this is NOT aryan culture. !!

After assuming this as Aryan culture, this argues, we all should live in peace & not fight.

frankly i have NO problem if this is aryan culture, as long as it is proved !. Refer my response to Renuka, it is an impossible theory to prove.
Cheers,
JK

 

[Nara]

....anyways the article is bizarre it says at every step Vedic Aryans & then says all these are existing for 1000s of years & no migration happened - LOL !!

Dear Jaykay, I must say you raise some compelling questions, but the answers you provide are no less assertive and free of evidence than those who cite Hindutva propaganda. What you offer by way of evidence seems very farfetched, and in some instances, demonstrably false.

The claim that Sanskrit was the language of Nagas who lived near Nagappattinam, and they "gave" it to Devas or Aryas of Andhra Pradesh seems quite farfetched. You cannot simply assert this on the basis of some obscure inscription. What happened to these Nagas? What happened to the use of Sanskrit near Nagappattinam? How come Sanskrit is confined only to Brahmins, and to some NBs who try to enhance their social status through Sanksritization? If its origin is near Nagappattinam, how come it is called Vadamozi by the Tamils even as far back as Tholkappiyam?

You assert Homer's Iliad is copied from Ramayana, but offer nothing but faulty and wild speculations as evidence. You assert a Greek connection to Tamil Nadu through Megasthenes. His life spanned, according Wikipedia, circa 350 – 290 BCE. Compare this date to the date of Homer's Iliad, circa 8th century BCE. Homer is said to have composed Iliad some 500 years after the presumed events he sang about. This would place the war between Achaeans and the Trojans around 1300 BCE, roughly 1000 years before Megasthenes was even born. Further, the earliest dating of Valmiki Ramayanam is 5th century BCE. If the story of Valmiki raising Rama's children are to be believed, the presumed events of Ramayana has to be around the 5th century BCE, centuries before Megasthenes' mom and dad were even conceived.

You know, this AIT has become a political question these days. It was not so, until recently. Brahmins openly touted themselves as Aryans, they used the term Aryan to mean Brahmins quite freely. Even the terms Aiyer and Aiyengar are supposed to be derivatives of Arya. In general they looked down upon Tamil. They ascribed a Sanskrit source for anything expressed in Tamil, they did this to even Thirukkural. Such abject attempts to claim Sanskrit supremacy over Tamil, among other things, led to the charge that Brahmins/Aryans are alien to the Dravidian land. It is in response to this the Hindutva politicians in India started questioning AIT and have turned it into a political issue.

Whether AIT is true or is it AMT, let the genuine historians work it out. However, one thing is clear, there is undeniable DNA evidence that shows increasing patrilineal genetic similarity with increasing caste rank (i.e. the upper castes, the ones who claim to be Aryans) to Europeans of the caucuses/Central Asia. The Greeks of Megasthenes came centuries later to India to be a source, let alone the exclusive source, of this genetic similarity.

Cheers!

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Nara,

My inputs:

1. when there is a inscription that says - Nagas gave sanskrit, clear historical evidence, you say it is obscure. but you say Vadamozhi is clinching evidence !!

Ancient African Kings Of India – By Dr. Clyde Winters – Rasta Livewire

The major gift of the Naga to India was the writing system: Nagari. Nagari is the name for the Sanskrit script.

so I am not the only one saying it is the Nagas who gave them.

2. Just because the people in Nagapattinam dont speak Sanskrit, doesnt mean anything. By the way, the major Naga settlement is Kerala (Pathala) & you know sanskrit is well preserved here probably even better than Tamil Nadu, Karnataka & Andhra. !! & then Andhra is another major Naga settlement & Andra Princes are called Naga princes right through history & reflected in all ancient texts.

3. I cannot understand, how you keep repeating "Vadamozhi" to North India, ???. Our Dravidian kings were small cheiftans & were on horses. do you think they used to go & travel 1 to 2 yrs on foot to go to Ganga for bathing - LOL instead of the life source - Ganga Cauvery !! By the time they come back, they will have to go back to bath again !! - LOL

I mean you are willing to give more credence to a collogiual word - "Vadamozhi" than a sanskrit inscription on a temple 18 centuries back !!! - wow !

Sorry to say, you asked for all possible evidence to prove God's existence, but you are willing to go by "Vadamozhi" & according to you it is North India & acccording to me it is North of Tamil Nadu - Andhra, North Karnataka

4. where is the "historical or archealogical evidence:" to date, Homer, or His illiad writing, or Valmiki or his writing ????? - None of the researchers offer any confirmation, they only sasy, possibly they could be from this time.!!

you talk with such confidence that this must have happened before Valmiki's mom & dad were born, can you please show some, or any evidence or any ancient text that says he was born at this time - I will simply rest my case !!

5. AIT was "invented" by our good friend Nehru & his cohorts. Actually there is NO western researcher who has written this rediculous theory about Aryan Invaion, they come with no religion, adopt our dravidian gods etc...

6. In this Nehru's conspiracy, he had to show that south brahmins are North Indians, hence Aryans to prove his theory. Because there was NO sanskrit being spoken or chanted in any of the temples in north. even the inscriptions are in Hindi . I am an Aiyer, have not heard of such translation from Aryan to Aiyer, my family is filled with Sanskrit Scholars !! - Again where is the evidence. Is there a linguist who says Aiyer is a derivative word of Aryan ? and even if true, by all accounts, devas, aryas, nagas, rakshasas, asuras, etc.. are all dravidian tribes, & the Vedas, Puranans, Ramayana & Mahabarata are stories of these tribes.

7. Unfortunately genuine historians dont exist !!. In a communist/socialist country where Govt runs everything, they will only peddle the Nehru theory. you saw how the Ramanujam theory was discredited.!!

Pl show me any factual or historical or achealogical inconsistency in what I have said.

The story about Alexander, his general giving his daughter in marrraige to Chandragupta Maurya is documented in all texts. Coorgis claiming that are descendants of Alexander soldiers is written all over, no community will make up such stories. So by all accounts, Alexander's soldiers settle in Dravidian land setting the stage for the historic war.

Homer and Valmiki both wrote what they saw as their country men story !!

for Valmiki - Rama, Lashmana, Sugriva, Ravana, Indra are dravidians which is correct because they all lived in south india. for Homer, Lakshmana, Sugriva & Indra & Rama all gang up together & destroy a great empire - Troy/Priam/Ravana because they are white & some Greek, some trojans etc..!!

Just because this is a "new & surprising to hear" does NOT make it "untrue" !!

In which ever way you look at this, story will hold !! Completely based on historical evidences, archealogical finds, one to one correlation to Ramayana & Troy & the legends/local tales !!

Cheers,
JK