Temple Renovations

[CLN]

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It is of great interest to devotees whenever a temple is given a facelift by way of reconstructions and renovations. Naturally, they would like to be personally present in the temple if at all they can. In this connection, I would like to pose a query, purely out of goodwill and general interest without any intention of accusing anyone, on two such events which occurred at the same time yesterday. In fact, I have raised it also in my FaceBook page, but so far, none has responded.

இன்று தமிழ்நாட்டில் நடந்த ஒரு விஷயம். சில அன்பர்கள் இதை நான் சுட்டிக் காண்பிப்பது பிடிக்காமல் முகம் சுளிக்கக் கூடும்.

இன்று காலை ஒரே சமயத்தில் ஸ்ரீரங்கம் ரங்கநாதர் கோயிலிலும் ஸ்வாமிமலை முருகன் கோயிலிலும் ஸம்ப்ரோக்ஷணம்/கும்பாபிஷேகம். இரண்டுமே பிரசித்தி பெற்ற கோவில்கள். இடையில் வெறும் 100 கி.மீ. தூரம் தான். பல பக்தர்கள் இரண்டிலுமே பங்கெடுப்பதைப் பெரும் பாக்கியமாகவே கருதி இருந்திருப்பர். ஆனால் அந்த எதிர்பார்ப்பில் மண்ணையிடுவதுபோல் இப்படி ஒரே சமயத்தில் இந்த வைபவங்களை நடத்தியிருக்க வேண்டிய அவசியம்தான் என்ன?

ஹரியும் சிவனும் ஒன்று என்பது வெறும் பேச்சளவில் நிறுத்திக் கொள்ளப் படவேண்டியவைதானா?

விஷயம் தெரிந்தவர்கள் என்ன நடந்தது என்பதை விளக்கினால் சாமானிய மக்களுக்கு ஆறுதல் கிடைக்கும்.

 

[Govinda]

Vedic festivals are performed during auspicious dates and times. The dates may be set based on the completion of the work (renovation), availability of priests, resources, and the most-auspicious dates. This by itself would be a complex exercise.

There are so many temples and famous ones too, they need to go by their own specific and on-hand requirements. There will any way be huge crowds, even from the same locality/community.

Temple authorities discuss about the clash of dates, only when these big festivals are from the same community/town.

Even for pongal like festivals, it is the same, one auspicious time for setting the Pongal Pot. We celebrate at our home first, and visit other homes later. So, it is up to the devotees to chose at their interest and convenience.

 

[vgane]

Vedic festivals are performed during auspicious dates and times. The dates may be set based on the completion of the work (renovation), availability of priests, resources, and the most-auspicious dates. This by itself would be a complex exercise.

There are so many temples and famous ones too, they need to go by their own specific and on-hand requirements. There will any way be huge crowds, even from the same locality/community.

Temple authorities discuss about the clash of dates, only when these big festivals are from the same community/town.

Even for pongal like festivals, it is the same, one auspicious time for setting the Pongal Pot. We celebrate at our home first, and visit other homes later. So, it is up to the devotees to chose at their interest and convenience.

Mahasamprokshanam is done once in 12 years...That it falls on the same day in 2 temples should not be an issue..There is lot of religious fervor in TN...If I am in Trichy I will visit Srirangam first & then visit Swamy malai....If I am in Kumbakonam I will visit Swamy malai first & then visit Sri Rangam ..It is individual's choice

 

[CHANDRU1849]

<removed unnecessary post>

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri CLN,

This "Mahasamprokshanam/kumbhabhishekam" looks to me like the recharging of mobiles; please correct me if I am wrong. Once in 12 years or so, the deity even in the great temples, needs to be recharged so that it can continue to be a powerful "swami" for another 12 years! So, the feeling that being present in more such recharge functions will add to one's punya etc., are delusional bhakti as one of our very learned members here often says.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Incidentally, yesterday (9th Sep), Palalayam was performed in Kapaleeswarar Temple for the forthcoming Kumbhabhishekam.

What is the correct word 'Mahasamprokshanam or Kumnbhabhishekam?'

 

[CLN]

Dear Sangom Sir,
There can be no refuting the argument put forth by the "very learned member", as you have cited!

:laugh:
Even as I have made my observation about the disappointment to strictly neutral devotees only yesterday, one hears of some dispute already having arisen between two local Vaishnavite factions themselves in Srirangam.

Perhpas, it is a very wise decision Praveen has taken now not to entertain anymore entries in the Forum, based on the Shaiva / Vaishnava tussles, or, Vadakalai / Thenkalai war of words any more!

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,
There can be no refuting the argument put forth by the "very learned member", as you have cited!

:laugh:
Even as I have made my observation about the disappointment to strictly neutral devotees only yesterday, one hears of some dispute already having arisen between two local Vaishnavite factions themselves in Srirangam.

Perhpas, it is a very wise decision Praveen has taken now not to entertain anymore entries in the Forum, based on the Shaiva / Vaishnava tussles, or, Vadakalai / Thenkalai war of words any more!

Shri CLN,

When the "kuDamuzhukku" ceremony itself is like the divine battery recharge and this is being accomplished by the ordinary priests chanting a lot of mantras etc., the doubt will naturally arise why the idol is considered to be more powerful than those priests themselves? The answer is also given in an ancient sloka, thus—

दैवाधीनं जगत्सर्वं मन्त्राधीनं तु दैवतम् ।
तन्मन्त्रं ब्राह्मणाधीनं तस्मात् ब्राह्मणो मम दैवतम्॥

daivādhīnaṃ jagatsarvaṃ mantrādhīnaṃ tu daivatam |
tanmantraṃ brāhmaṇādhīnaṃ tasmāt brāhmaṇo mama daivatam||

(Thisuniverse is under god's control, but the god is is controlled by mantra; that mantra is under the brAhmana's control; therefore, brAhmanas are my gods.)

The devotees who are eager to amass "punya" by witnessing more and more kuDamuzhukku ceremonies may be "strictly neutral" as you say, but they are gullible and lost in wrong notions. As regards the disputes, fisticuffs etc., between the two kalais and also between Saiva-Vaishnava fanatics, etc., we have to accept their existence as due to the rank ignorance of the masses and leave it at that.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Shri CLN,
This "Mahasamprokshanam/kumbhabhishekam" looks to me like the recharging of mobiles; please correct me if I am wrong. Once in 12 years or so, the deity even in the great temples, needs to be recharged so that it can continue to be a powerful "swami" for another 12 years! So, the feeling that being present in more such recharge functions will add to one's punya etc., are delusional bhakti as one of our very learned members here often says.

For a moment I thought the above post was made by the street corner kazhagam demagogue Theeppori Munisamy. On a second reading I realised it is the effort of our Agnostic to make fun of the Mahasamprokshanam/Kumbhabhishekam.

1. The deity does not get recharged with any "power" that has depleted. The special adhesives used to firmly hold the deity on its peetham needs complete scrapping and reapplication atleast once in 12 years.

2. This "marunthu chaaththuthal" or application of adhesives can not be done even as daily pujas including the thirumanjanam/abhishekam are being performed for obvious reasons.

3. As it is impossible to remove the deity to another place and carry out the adhesives application in the garbagriha, a representative deity is temporarily made and daily pujas are done to that deity until the original deity is firmly fixed to the peetham and is ready for the repeated cycles of application of water, milk etc., as part of daily ArAdhana. This representative temporary deity is usually a figurine carved out in wood, a painting made in a piece of cloth, or simply a pot of water depending on the relevant Agamic rules. If there is a Utsav deity in the temple that it self acts as the temporary deity for this purpose in some temples. The period when the Moola Bera is kept in such temporary suspension of puja is called Balalayam.

4. Along with this most important process of fastening the deity firmly to its peetham, all repairs and renovations to the temple precincts are also carried out as a larger project.

5. Once the deity is ready for the day to day rituals again a grand special puja is conducted as per Agamic injunctions. This special puja is called Mahasamprokshanam/Kumbhabhishekam.

So in all the above processes you will not find any recharging of any "power" involved. If you are able to discern such a process still, the problem lies with your attitude as an agnostic. And that can't be helped.

 

[a-TB]

For a moment I thought the above post was made by the street corner kazhagam demagogue Theeppori Munisamy. On a second reading I realised it is the effort of our Agnostic to make fun of the Mahasamprokshanam/Kumbhabhishekam.

1. The deity does not get recharged with any "power" that has depleted. The special adhesives used to firmly hold the deity on its peetham needs complete scrapping and reapplication atleast once in 12 years.

2. This "marunthu chaaththuthal" or application of adhesives can not be done even as daily pujas including the thirumanjanam/abhishekam are being performed for obvious reasons.

3. As it is impossible to remove the deity to another place and carry out the adhesives application in the garbagriha, a representative deity is temporarily made and daily pujas are done to that deity until the original deity is firmly fixed to the peetham and is ready for the repeated cycles of application of water, milk etc., as part of daily ArAdhana. This representative temporary deity is usually a figurine carved out in wood, a painting made in a piece of cloth, or simply a pot of water depending on the relevant Agamic rules. If there is a Utsav deity in the temple that it self acts as the temporary deity for this purpose in some temples. The period when the Moola Bera is kept in such temporary suspension of puja is called Balalayam.

4. Along with this most important process of fastening the deity firmly to its peetham, all repairs and renovations to the temple precincts are also carried out as a larger project.

5. Once the deity is ready for the day to day rituals again a grand special puja is conducted as per Agamic injunctions. This special puja is called Mahasamprokshanam/Kumbhabhishekam.

So in all the above processes you will not find any recharging of any "power" involved. If you are able to discern such a process still, the problem lies with your attitude as an agnostic. And that can't be helped.

Want to know more about this Theeppori Munisamy! How will he know about this Temple event? Since a new person is introduced in the discussion, curious minds want to know more about this Munisami Lol

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Want to know more about this Theeppori Munisamy! How will he know about this Temple event? Since a new person is introduced in the discussion, curious minds want to know more about this Munisami Lol

Rationalist leaders know more about religion than believers because they study, review and analyze critically, not like blind following by us.

I have come across a rationalist leader from Thanjavur District, who went hammer and tong against two epics imported from North India - Ramayana and Mahabharatha - during my college days.

 

[vgane]

Want to know more about this Theeppori Munisamy! How will he know about this Temple event? Since a new person is introduced in the discussion, curious minds want to know more about this Munisami Lol

You did not get it yet!..The theeppori is a factional character created by Sri Vaagmiji to drive home his points....But we have many such Theepori's in TN who belt out falsehoods for a living..They are well paid for their public rantings and heretical pronouncements!

 

[tbs]

It is of great interest to devotees whenever a temple is given a facelift by way of reconstructions and renovations. Naturally, they would like to be personally present in the temple if at all they can. In this connection, I would like to pose a query, purely out of goodwill and general interest without any intention of accusing anyone, on two such events which occurred at the same time yesterday. In fact, I have raised it also in my FaceBook page, but so far, none has responded.

இன்று தமிழ்நாட்டில் நடந்த ஒரு விஷயம். சில அன்பர்கள் இதை நான் சுட்டிக் காண்பிப்பது பிடிக்காமல் முகம் சுளிக்கக் கூடும்.

இன்று காலை ஒரே சமயத்தில் ஸ்ரீரங்கம் ரங்கநாதர் கோயிலிலும் ஸ்வாமிமலை முருகன் கோயிலிலும் ஸம்ப்ரோக்ஷணம்/கும்பாபிஷேகம். இரண்டுமே பிரசித்தி பெற்ற கோவில்கள். இடையில் வெறும் 100 கி.மீ. தூரம் தான். பல பக்தர்கள் இரண்டிலுமே பங்கெடுப்பதைப் பெரும் பாக்கியமாகவே கருதி இருந்திருப்பர். ஆனால் அந்த எதிர்பார்ப்பில் மண்ணையிடுவதுபோல் இப்படி ஒரே சமயத்தில் இந்த வைபவங்களை நடத்தியிருக்க வேண்டிய அவசியம்தான் என்ன?

ஹரியும் சிவனும் ஒன்று என்பது வெறும் பேச்சளவில் நிறுத்திக் கொள்ளப் படவேண்டியவைதானா?

விஷயம் தெரிந்தவர்கள் என்ன நடந்தது என்பதை விளக்கினால் சாமானிய மக்களுக்கு ஆறுதல் கிடைக்கும்.

hi

nothing wrong...may be auspicious dates....like marriages....many marriages happening in the same MUHURTHAM...

we have to choose and prefer to go...even though we may get invitations in same day/same time....but we give priorities...

another suggestion..we get live videos available...we can watch whenever we like....

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Even as I have made my observation about the disappointment to strictly neutral devotees only yesterday, one hears of some dispute already having arisen between two local Vaishnavite factions themselves in Srirangam.

Though exact details are not known, this incident was reported 'in the headlines' of popular evening newspaper of a rationalist leader.

It is rather strange how difference of opinion arises in a place which is being controlled by the Govt.

 

[sangom]

For a moment I thought the above post was made by the street corner kazhagam demagogue Theeppori Munisamy. On a second reading I realised it is the effort of our Agnostic to make fun of the Mahasamprokshanam/Kumbhabhishekam.

1. The deity does not get recharged with any "power" that has depleted. The special adhesives used to firmly hold the deity on its peetham needs complete scrapping and reapplication atleast once in 12 years.

"Kumbabishekam recharges the spiritual power of the deity and also the Kumba of the temple tower, which is also surcharged with the same divine power as the deity. This is done to benefit even those who are unable to visit the temple derive the same spiritual merit by just beholding the temple tower." (Sri Vidya rajagopalan — https://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101117010012AA3TRil)

Hope this Sri Vidya Rajagopalan, sporting a trident on the forehead, is not the "spark" Munisami's Vaishnava version!

Generally, in temples of Kerala, the "special adhesives" are not replaced like battery recharging, once every so many years. Either there should be "pratyaksha pramanam" of the special adhesives having degraded or not sticking, or a new "recharging" should be indicated in a Devaprasnam conducted on account of any reason whatsoever. It is the belief that unnecessarily tampering with the "ashtabandham", the special adhesive, is a disrespect to the installed deity, even though temple managements know that this recharging is sure to "refill" their pockets as well!

3. As it is impossible to remove the deity to another place and carry out the adhesives application in the garbagriha, a representative deity is temporarily made and daily pujas are done to that deity until the original deity is firmly fixed to the peetham and is ready for the repeated cycles of application of water, milk etc., as part of daily ArAdhana. This representative temporary deity is usually a figurine carved out in wood, a painting made in a piece of cloth, or simply a pot of water depending on the relevant Agamic rules. If there is a Utsav deity in the temple that it self acts as the temporary deity for this purpose in some temples. The period when the Moola Bera is kept in such temporary suspension of puja is called Balalayam.

In Kerala temples a recharging or fresh "ashtabandha" involves removal of the installed idol, which will have a granite "root" or tail attached below and will be at least the height of the idol, from the pit, removing the entire old special adhesives and applying freshly prepared adhesive, reinstalling the idol as if it is a new installation, etc. This requires sizeable outlay which gladdens many hearts!

During these "engine overhaul" work, the installed idol is to be kept in specially prepared water container. Daily worship will be for the utsavar.

So in all the above processes you will not find any recharging of any "power" involved. If you are able to discern such a process still, the problem lies with your attitude as an agnostic. And that can't be helped.

If no recharging or power is involved, then why so much hullabaloo about this kuDamuzhukku? If the 'kalasams' are untouched, then why pour water over all those 7 or 9 antennae atop the gopuram which the gullible throng to witness?

The gullible people believe that "divine power" from the original, trademark god (Renganathar, Murugan, etc.,) sends his "power" down the atmosphere through the kalasma installed atop the gopuram which are "focussed" in some mysterious way on the installed idol in the garbhagriha during this "recharging" ceremony. Hence their zeal in witnessing this.

I now expect some "ice-kaTTai hanuman" to take this discussion further.

 

[Vaagmi]

Reference post #15 by Sangomji.

Hope this Sri Vidya Rajagopalan, sporting a trident on the forehead, is not the "spark" Munisami's Vaishnava version!

If it is trident for you what do you call the three flat lines that are drawn on the forehead of your respected Guru and your relatives and yourselves? Even in the religious symbols the erect vertical symbol denotes virility. The flat dozing symbols denote laziness, sloth and ignorance. Do you understand? This is the reply from a vaishnava to the needling indulged by you.

The Kerala temples do not follow the two vaishnavite agamas (if they are vishnu temples) and the many Sivagamas (if they are siva temples). They follow the thanthra system of worship. So their rules are different. Period.

If no recharging or power is involved, then why so much hullabaloo about this kuDamuzhukku? If the 'kalasams' are untouched, then why pour water over all those 7 or 9 antennae atop the gopuram which the gullible throng to witness?

Water is poured to purify the Vimanam on top of which these kalasams are placed for a certain purpose. When the tower/vimanam is repaired and repainted the kalasam naturally need purification. It is the bhaktas who throng to witness the kudamuzhukku. For an armchair revolutionary agnostic the vimanam with kalasams will look like antennae and the bhkatas all will be gullible. It is just attitude problem. What you call hullabaloo is celebration of a rare event for the bhaktas.

I do not understand what you mean by "ice-kaTTai Hanuman". If and when you elucidate I may reply.

 

[a-TB]

You did not get it yet!..The theeppori is a factional character created by Sri Vaagmiji to drive home his points....But we have many such Theepori's in TN who belt out falsehoods for a living..They are well paid for their public rantings and heretical pronouncements!

Dear Mr vgane:
I sort of got that Mr Vaagmi was being sarcastic being offended and angry at Mr Sangom (as usual ) for the agnostic ideas. Mr Vaagmi's emotional response was like a Theepori fellow as well - at least the first part Lol

I always have fun reading Mr Vaagmi's emotional responses
Thank you in any case for your explanation

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr vgane:
I sort of got that Mr Vaagmi was being sarcastic being offended and angry at Mr Sangom (as usual ) for the agnostic ideas. Mr Vaagmi's emotional response was like a Theepori fellow as well - at least the first part Lol

I always have fun reading Mr Vaagmi's emotional responses
Thank you in any case for your explanation

We all come here with our equipment which is God given. we might have attempted some improvisation. With this equipment we measure people and situations.

What looks like an emotional response to one may be in fact a measured deliberate expression of disapproval/purposeful controlled anger for another.

One can have fun in any situation. LOL. It is all equipment fault.

 

[a-TB]

We all come here with our equipment which is God given. we might have attempted some improvisation. With this equipment we measure people and situations.

What looks like an emotional response to one may be in fact a measured deliberate expression of disapproval/purposeful controlled anger for another.

One can have fun in any situation. LOL. It is all equipment fault.

OK, when did you check your equipment to make sure it is not faulty? How do you calibrate it, against what?

 

[MRKUMAR]

It is true
But the circumstances to do these kumbabhishekams many not be known to all !

But all these happen with God's blessings and with the time of the need and the respective area's devotees cooperation !
regards

 

[Vaagmi]

OK, when did you check your equipment to make sure it is not faulty?

Worry about yourself first. Then you can worry about others in the world.

How do you calibrate it, against what?

One who does not understand the difference between an emotional outburst and a calibrated, deliberately measured response to a provocation will not understand even if explained. So I do not answer your question. Try to find it out yourself.

 

[a-TB]

Worry about yourself first. Then you can worry about others in the world.




One who does not understand the difference between an emotional outburst and a calibrated, deliberately measured response to a provocation will not understand even if explained. So I do not answer your question. Try to find it out yourself.

OK, let us get something straight!
You brought the idea of 'equipment' and yet you can't answer how you 'improvised' it to insult everyone here so easily.

You turn every discussion into a personal attack and then go around saying how you and your clan are persecuted.
I have heard religiosity makes people attack others who are not like them and go around feeling persecuted.

What is bothering you, my friend??? Your god should be consulted. May peace be with you

 

[krish44]

Do a _TB and vaagmi ji follow different Gods?

I pity their Gods more than them. He has to put up with them

 

[Vaagmi]

do a _tb and vaagmi ji follow different gods?

I pity their gods more than them. He has to put up with them

lol.

 

[Vaagmi]

OK, let us get something straight!
You brought the idea of 'equipment' and yet you can't answer how you 'improvised' it to insult everyone here so easily.

You turn every discussion into a personal attack and then go around saying how you and your clan are persecuted.
I have heard religiosity makes people attack others who are not like them and go around feeling persecuted.

What is bothering you, my friend??? Your god should be consulted. May peace be with you

The problem with u is that you are highly. Judgmental. Please read your. Post once more. You have used terms like "you can't",'you insult'"," your clan", "your god" etc. Your judgmental attitude irritates me and many of my friends here. So,for heaven's sake mind your business and stop judging people. Thank you for that.