The Brahmin-Kshatriya alliance

[biswa]

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I have been following in world history a certain trend that makes an alliance between brains and brawn. Of course the classic in our own India is not a myth but history: how Chanakya nurtured and guided Chandragupta to be the head of the great Maurya empire.

But beyond India, there is a similar trend, even without specific names. The Pharaohs of Egypt uneasy alliance with the temple priests of Amun, the Celtic kings resisting the Romans with the help of their druids. Or even the native American Indian chiefs taking the help of their Shamans. And everybody knows how the European monarchs courted the Pope (Henry VIII fell out of course so that he could marry 4 wives).

Going beyond Brahmanism etc, is this just a natural trend? The complementary nature of gray matter and muscles and how each need the other to survive and master and exploit the rest of the environment?

 

[amala]

Dear BiswaJi,

I think this is fairly natural an alliance. Apart for Chanakya/Chandragupta alliance, down south we've had our very own Tenali Raman a Brahmin who was a court jester cum poet cum advisor in Krishnadevaraya's Vijayanagara.

I remember a visit to Thailand many years back and with the conversation our Thai guide got to know we are Brahmins. Not expecting her to know much about it we were very surprised when she said that Brahmin priests play a very important role in King Rama IX court. Apparently inspite of Thailand largely being Theravada Buddhist, at least in the Royal Thai court no ritual is conducted without the court Brahmins.

I think ancient people had an innate believe and trust in their priests/medicine men, in that they actually believed these people could communicate with the Gods. That the priests had/have some supernatural powers only known and guarded by them. So it makes it all the more natural that monarchs who are controlling the land go hand in hand with priests who possibly had a more covert way of controlling its people.

The Catholic Inquisitions throughout the world during the dark ages were not carried out without the full co-operation and support of the priests and the Popes. Even today the ruling classes are always in good terms with the religious classes. You cannot have full power without the other IMO.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The Thailand court Brahmins are South Indian (possibly Tamil) Brahmins. They did rule over the country for some time as advisors. Now their role is largely ceremonial.

About the topic, there are very few Kshatriyas in India. Most of our rulers were Sudras. A Kshtriya also wears a Poonal. The so called Kshatriyas of South India are not real kashtriyas.

 

[happyhindu]

Nakhon Si Thammarat temple was supposedly set up by the first / earliest priests who landed in thailand. Looks like they were temple priests who were well versed in agama shastras, various rituals, medicine, interpretation of dreams, etc. There were hindu priests as Rajpurohits in Thai courts as early as 8th or 9th century. I wud be glad to know (from any poster here) if they were called brahmins or vedic-brahmins at that time.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Happyhindu and others:

I have this question for a long time in me:

Early Caste Hierarchy in Hinduism was nothing but a Professional Classification and Order. Very benign. There was easy mobility among the people in the sense a barber's son could become a Brahmin, who can become a King or a warrior if he wanted to etc. Likewise, a businessman's kids could become a Brahmin so on and so forth.

Some time along our history, this Caste Hierarchy by Profession became rigid or very rigid that said if your father is a Brahmin you are always a Brahmin, whether or not you know his profession, and a barber's son is always a barber even when he knows the profession of a Brahmin etc. Thus this became such an oppressive system, therefore vile and venal, IMO.

My specific questions are WHEN this transition occurred?.. I believe some time well AFTER the teachings of Sankara and Ramanuja...maybe around 1500 CE.

What were the forces and compulsions in the Hindu society to change a professional classification into a "by Birth" architecture?

Thanks

Y

ps. The answers to these questions will shed light on "Brain & Brawn" issue raised in this Thread, IMO. Brain & Brawn are always distributed equally in the population among various sub-populations, IMO. Cheers.

 

[amala]

I've always understood caste to be unchangeable and you're basically born into it. Only in this forum have i read a few times that in the golden days actually you can change your caste and its nothing more than division of labour, class whatever you want to call it. But was it really the case? Very benign as you put it. Really? Barbers son can become a Brahmin?? Really???? the 1st I've heard of that.

And apparently some time along our history it become rigid. Even I wonder when exactly?. I honestly thought it was always pretty rigid. Apart from Vishwamitra and some other sage (was it Drona?) who became Brahmin, I honestly never took that assertion that you can change your caste seriously. I thought its caste apologists who keep insisting that those days were different. That you could change your caste. But could you really? Somehow I sincerely doubt it.

I am willing to stand corrected though.

 

[C RAVI]

I've always understood caste to be unchangeable and you're basically born into it. Only in this forum have i read a few times that in the golden days actually you can change your caste and its nothing more than division of labour, class whatever you want to call it. But was it really the case? Very benign as you put it. Really? Barbers son can become a Brahmin?? Really???? the 1st I've heard of that.

And apparently some time along our history it become rigid. Even I wonder when exactly?. I honestly thought it was always pretty rigid. Apart from Vishwamitra and some other sage (was it Drona?) who became Brahmin, I honestly never took that assertion that you can change your caste seriously. I thought its caste apologists who keep insisting that those days were different. That you could change your caste. But could you really? Somehow I sincerely doubt it.

I am willing to stand corrected though.

Dear Amala,


All of us seem to be confused here..Lol...Or just keeping calm to have fun time here....

 

[amala]

Dear Ravi,

I'm not sure what you are saying. That all of us seem to be confused? Who are these all of us?

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happyhindu and others:

I have this question for a long time in me:

Early Caste Hierarchy in Hinduism was nothing but a Professional Classification and Order. Very benign. There was easy mobility among the people in the sense a barber's son could become a Brahmin, who can become a King or a warrior if he wanted to etc. Likewise, a businessman's kids could become a Brahmin so on and so forth.

Some time along our history, this Caste Hierarchy by Profession became rigid or very rigid that said if your father is a Brahmin you are always a Brahmin, whether or not you know his profession, and a barber's son is always a barber even when he knows the profession of a Brahmin etc. Thus this became such a oppressive system, therefore vile and venal, IMO.

My specific questions are WHEN this transition occurred?.. I believe some time well AFTER the teachings of Sankara and Ramanuja...maybe around 1500 CE.

What were the forces and compulsions in the Hindu society to change a professional classification into a "by Birth" architecture?

Thanks

Y

I beleive the transition happened in layers.

1) During the period of the smrithis.

But Buddhism wiped off many things. It had its own definition of gotra (as spiritual descent), shramana traditions, tantra ritualism, etc.

2) Second layer was during the hindu revivalism post-buddhism. Kings converting to vedism may have adopted smrithis and wanted a birth-based rigid caste system. It was the puranic age. Depending on the kingdom, during this time you can find books giving examples of petty chieftains coming to power, getting themselves elevated to kshatriya-hood and their own priests to brahminhood. I even think one of the reasons why kingdoms fought against each other was to ensure their own positions of kshatriyahood and brahminhood were never lost.

3) Third layer was possibly during the period of Adi Shankaracharya. Sometimes i wonder what has advaita got to do with smrithis. And why wud an avowed advaitin write a bhasya on brahmasutra supporting smrithis.

4) Fourth was the time period between 8th century and 12th century. A mixed period. Medhatithi's work which allowed foreigners to join into brahmana, kshatriya, vaishya varnas based on their occupation, was systematically destroyed. While there is an example of boyas obtaining vedic education secretly.

Then came the full scale muslim invasions which spoilt things. Me thinks all occupational categories went topsy-turvy during this time.

5) Finally, the Vijayanagar Rayas, the Marathas, all ensured birth rigidity in occupations. I feel the present-day brahmins are those who were elevated to brahminhood under the rayas and marathas.

Then came colonial rule and everyone made all sorts of claims, cross-overs, etc.

Regards.

 

[Yamaka]

I've always understood caste to be unchangeable and you're basically born into it. Only in this forum have i read a few times that in the golden days actually you can change your caste and its nothing more than division of labour, class whatever you want to call it. But was it really the case? Very benign as you put it. Really? Barbers son can become a Brahmin?? Really???? the 1st I've heard of that.

And apparently some time along our history it become rigid. Even I wonder when exactly?. I honestly thought it was always pretty rigid. Apart from Vishwamitra and some other sage (was it Drona?) who became Brahmin, I honestly never took that assertion that you can change your caste seriously. I thought its caste apologists who keep insisting that those days were different. That you could change your caste. But could you really? Somehow I sincerely doubt it.

I am willing to stand corrected though.

I have read that even Adi Poet Valmiki was an illiterate person whose prime job in youth was robbing people and terrorizing all as practiced by "a low caste persons".

But later in his life, he learnt Sanskrit and meditated so well that he wrote the great epic Ramayanam thus starting Lord Rama worship in India, historians say. Because of his professional achievement, people celebrated Valmiki as a Brahmin.

I am not sure whether this is the story from a Caste Apologist!

Peace.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi,

I'm not sure what you are saying. That all of us seem to be confused? Who are these all of us?

All who wants to know what's the right answer....

 

[amala]

ps. The answers to these questions will shed light on "Brain & Brawn" issue raised in this Thread, IMO. Brain & Brawn are always distributed equally in the population among various sub-populations, IMO. Cheers.

I just had a conversation with my father an hour back and he mentioned reading somewhere that Lady Shri Ram College in Delhi, apparently the entrance exam mark is 100%. And that people and politicians are annoyed. So people who got even 98% can't get a place.

Lots of people got full 100%. And 30% of those are from TN. So I casually said "nana, must be Brahmins". My dad was like no way. He saw the names and they were Tamil names apparently. I was surprised and said "nana dont joke ok". He was like yes. Seriously!.

I was surprised pleasantly let me add, not because of anything but I had always assumed Brahmins were the brightest. They do tend to go on about how bright they are at least in TN . My uncle in Chennai says all others are catching up or already caught up. TBs only had the advantage because they had English education early those days.

Your brain distributed equally amongst the population line reminded me of this conversation.

 

[C RAVI]

I have read that even Adi Poet Valmiki was an illiterate person whose prime job in youth was robbing people and terrorizing all as practiced by "a low caste persons".

But later in his life, he learnt Sanskrit and meditated so well that he wrote the great epic Ramayanam thus starting Lord Rama worship in India, historians say. Because of his professional achievement, people celebrated Valmiki as a Brahmin.

I am not sure whether this is the story from a Caste Apologist!

Peace.

In this yuga, with modern society, political agenda, materialistic world, I don't think any one can match himself/herself with the needful to elevate to the level of Maharishi Valmiki. Even staunch brahmins/4 veda qualified (Chaturvedi) can not make himself/herself equivalent to Maharishi Valmiki, IMO. Can not compare normal folks of the past and the present with such great Maharishis and Azhwars, who were all great souls on this Earch..IMO..

 

[C RAVI]

I just had a conversation with my father an hour back and he mentioned reading somewhere that Lady Shri Ram College in Delhi, apparently the entrance exam mark is 100%. And that people and politicians are annoyed. So people who got even 98% can't get a place.

Lots of people got full 100%. And 30% of those are from TN. So I casually said "nana, must be Brahmins". My dad was like no way. He saw the names and they were Tamil names apparently. I was surprised and said "nana dont joke ok". He was like yes. Seriously!.

I was surprised pleasantly let me add, not because of anything but I had always assumed Brahmins were the brightest. They do tend to go on about how bright they are at least in TN . My uncle in Chennai says all others are catching up or already caught up. TBs only had the advantage because they had English education early those days.

Your brain distributed equally amongst the population line reminded me of this conversation.

Dear Amala,

In TN all the students irrespective of their cast are very brilliant. For the last couple of years, in all the 10th and 12th board exams, sharp/hard working students from all the casts have scored centum or near centum. Out of this majority of scorers, school/district level topers are girls...

 

[Yamaka]

I just had a conversation with my father an hour back and he mentioned reading somewhere that Lady Shri Ram College in Delhi, apparently the entrance exam mark is 100%. And that people and politicians are annoyed. So people who got even 98% can't get a place.

Lots of people got full 100%. And 30% of those are from TN. So I casually said "nana, must be Brahmins". My dad was like no way. He saw the names and they were Tamil names apparently. I was surprised and said "nana dont joke ok". He was like yes. Seriously!.

I was surprised pleasantly let me add, not because of anything but I had always assumed Brahmins were the brightest. They do tend to go on about how bright they are at least in TN . My uncle in Chennai says all others are catching up or already caught up. TBs only had the advantage because they had English education early those days.

Your brain distributed equally amongst the population line reminded me of this conversation.

Hello Amala:

Your uncle in Chennai is right on the money... everybody is catching up and realize that good education is the gateway for success (financial, intellectual and other success).

Historically speaking, Brahmins understood this FACT very early on.. they left the Temples and moved on to Schools, then to Colleges and Civil and Foreign Services..and became very proficient in English and thus good "servants" of the British Raj etc etc.

Consequently, before any other community, they became rich, powerful and became "king makers" in all sorts of areas.

Perhaps, due to the movement started by EVR/CN Annadurai in TN, all other communities are also now following the trail-blazing achievements of Brahmins.

Who's suffering now?

Those who stayed strictly in the Temples, Mosques or Churches... believing that God will take care of them... and not higher education and acquiring skills that Society demands!

Cheers.

ps. Talent distribution is normal among population is a view espoused by academics and peoples like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates, I heard.

 

[ShivKC]

Hello Amala:




Those who stayed strictly in the Temples, Mosques or Churches... believing that God will take care of them... and not higher education and acquiring skills that Society demands!

Cheers.

alright Mr.Yamaka.

Tell me which God and which religion told you not to take books and not to acquire knowledge? please note you skipped few of my earlier questions , similar in line with this. I repeat the same

1) hinduism is the first and foremost and only religion which has even assigned a Goddess Laskmi for money & Goddess Sarswathi for Education/books and knowledge.

2) christianity.. all the 15th-18th century inventions/science/mathematics were made under the jesuit/monastical orders. and in modern times, majority of the nobel laureates were either christians or jews,definitely not atheists

3) the algebra/accounting system were introduced by islam.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I have heard Swami.Rangananda (a kerala Menon or Nair who became a Sanyasi in Ramakrishna Mutt) in his Gita lectures often stating that
the "Varna System" was a wonderful concept in Hinduim just like modern Management System (where there are separate wings of Specialisation like HRD, R&D,Purchase,SALE,Accounts etc.Over a period of time,the Brahmins with their knowledge joined hands with
Kshatriyas with power and started cheating the unsuspecting common people and resulted in the downfall of the Brahmin community from top of the Social hierarchy.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.ShivKC,
Goddess Lakshmi or Goddess Saraswathi for Education/Knowledge?

 

[Yamaka]

I have heard Swami.Rangananda (a kerala Menon or Nair who became a Sanyasi in Ramakrishna Mutt) in his Gita lectures often stating that
the "Varna System" was a wonderful concept in Hinduim just like modern Management System (where there are separate wings of Specialisation like HRD, R&D,Purchase,SALE,Accounts etc.Over a period of time,the Brahmins with their knowledge joined hands with
Kshatriyas with power and started cheating the unsuspecting common people and resulted in the downfall of the Brahmin community from top of the Social hierarchy.

Very well said Sir... I have been thinking this way for a long time!

"Over a period of time,the Brahmins with their knowledge joined hands with
Kshatriyas with power and started cheating the unsuspecting common people and resulted in the downfall of the Brahmin community from top of the Social hierarchy."


Any loose benign Social Hierarchy that allows easy mobility between the constituent groups is fine.. the malignancy starts when it becomes very rigid and "By Birth Only" comes into play as the primary criterion for the respective position in the Structure, IMO.

 

[happyhindu]

I have heard Swami.Rangananda (a kerala Menon or Nair who became a Sanyasi in Ramakrishna Mutt) in his Gita lectures often stating that
the "Varna System" was a wonderful concept in Hinduim just like modern Management System (where there are separate wings of Specialisation like HRD, R&D,Purchase,SALE,Accounts etc.Over a period of time,the Brahmins with their knowledge joined hands with
Kshatriyas with power and started cheating the unsuspecting common people and resulted in the downfall of the Brahmin community from top of the Social hierarchy.

Sir, its so sad that one needs to mention the caste of a sanyasi (swami ragananda).

The idea that varna system was ideal is not true. Varna system was enforced with violence in smrithis. Before the period of smrithi, there was nothing called a varna system of labour division.

It is foolish to think people willingly accepted slavery. In Mahabharat also, the victors call upon Indra and allocate occupations. Quite apparently the winning side always got to allocate occupations of the losers. There was nothing "spiritual" or ideal about this.

 

[biswa]

Now for a slight tangent. Has anyone here played any role playing games (on the computer)? There are certain parallels with real life, and just like life, there isn't much purpose to it at all.

Anyway, interestingly, when playing an RPG, one gets to choose an occupation. And guess what the classes are? Warrior, wizard, priest, cave-man, ranger, thief etc. Interestingly, the most successful characters have a mix of qualities from the warrior/wizard - like a Brahmin/Kshatriya hybrid.

Chatur varna RPG anybody?

 

[renuka]

Now for a slight tangent. Has anyone here played any role playing games (on the computer)? There are certain parallels with real life, and just like life, there isn't much purpose to it at all.

Anyway, interestingly, when playing an RPG, one gets to choose an occupation. And guess what the classes are? Warrior, wizard, priest, cave-man, ranger, thief etc. Interestingly, the most successful characters have a mix of qualities from the warrior/wizard - like a Brahmin/Kshatriya hybrid.

Chatur varna RPG anybody?

Dear Biswa,

So wait for Esha Deol(Kshatriya-Brahmin Hybrid) to play the game.

 

[biswa]

Now, this teamwork of brains and brawn, arms and magic can also be seen in the "Fantasy" novel genre - Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or even Percy Jackson series. So LOTR had Aragon + Gandalf, Harry + Hermione, Percy + Annabeth. For some reason, many of the brainy "Brahmins" are turning out to be girls.

 

[biswa]

I was surprised pleasantly let me add, not because of anything but I had always assumed Brahmins were the brightest. They do tend to go on about how bright they are at least in TN . My uncle in Chennai says all others are catching up or already caught up. TBs only had the advantage because they had English education early those days.

Your brain distributed equally amongst the population line reminded me of this conversation.

I am curious: what makes Tamilians smart? Is there something in the water? Is there a way to sell this water to the rest of India and make money?

Not that I am disputing the assertion though. In my batch perhaps half of the first 100 in IIT were Tamilians, possibly Brahmins and definitely South Indian.

 

[amala]

I can't speak for South Indians in general but I feel for Tambrahms because of the caste issue and reservation problems, they have to do or die. You simply have to make it. That is it.

Or maybe they just have the natural drive to strive. To succeed. Like the Chinese. Nothing like a collective culture to succeed come what may to motivate one to make it. Or be looked down upon forever. Ruthless but maybe thats your answer.