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Theory of Karma

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namaste shrI Sangom and others.

I have a question for you. The Buddhists' explanation of life and karma, besides the analogy of lighting lamps, also resembles the waves in an ocean: no wave is permanent, yet waves are continuously created by karmic agitations in the ocean.

Besides the unsatisfactory point you have mentioned (post #399), this concept is akin to the Christian concept of creation and destruction of souls. Do we have in Hinduism, a similar concept of new jivas being created besides the existing ones being eternal? Any scriptural references here?
 
namaste shrI Sangom and others.

I have a question for you. The Buddhists' explanation of life and karma, besides the analogy of lighting lamps, also resembles the waves in an ocean: no wave is permanent, yet waves are continuously created by karmic agitations in the ocean.

Besides the unsatisfactory point you have mentioned (post #399), this concept is akin to the Christian concept of creation and destruction of souls. Do we have in Hinduism, a similar concept of new jivas being created besides the existing ones being eternal? Any scriptural references here?

Shri Saidevo,

I am not an authority on scriptures. But I do think that corresponding to the eternal spiritual reality universes appear and disappear in space and time and at the time of appearance of an universe new jivas come into being but they become one with brahman. They are not destroyed. They emerge out of brahman and merge into brahman. The wave analogy is apt here.
 
Try defying gravity by flying out from roof a ten story building.

Shri Prasad,

For a change, I will change sides; Arunagirinathar thought of d(ef)ying by falling from the temple tower and Murugan helped him defy gravity, land safely and in addition inscribed OM on Arunagiri's tongue (did it bleed?) and helped him to commence the torrent of verses by giving him a "clue" - "muthai tharu".

Hence the need to fight for beliefs, papa, punya, swarga, naraka, etc. Don't you agree?
 
Just for info Famous Thiest...The humble down to earth and briliant Dr APJ Abdul Kalam.
Still remember reading a book about him where he said he was reading the Quran the day his successful launch took place and his fellow co scientists were reading their respective religious text too.


Within every successful Theist or Atheist there is God..the difference is the former feels It and latter has not yet felt It.

I met Kalam's older brother of whom he writes very highly of in his "Wings of Fire" in Madurai in 1975; long after I met Kalam himself in the Rice University in Houston a few years ago. They are interesting people.

They are Tamil Muslims from Rameshwaram, very close to my small village.

The fact of the matter is NONE of the Tamil Muslims, including Kalams know Arabic...but they were reading Quran very often.... I don't know how and why?

APJ Kalam is a rocket scientist by profession; alas.. he is possessed by the legacy of his tradition that led him to the non-existent God, I presume.

Believers follow their Religions and Gods either because of Legacy of Tradition, FEAR of the unknown or simple Superstition..

We need to ask APJK what's that he is afraid of?!!

:)
 
namaste Yamaka.

Yamaka said in post #180:
There are very many theories in Science as to how the world came into existence and how we all evolved from the "soup" of nitrogenous compounds with help of energy from Sun.

All that you say in your posts such as #380

• are only external interferences by scientific intelligence to simulate or clone existing life. How would this explain the evolution of the first form of one-celled life from the primordial soup by purely natural processes?

• If this is not possible, what was the external intelligence involved in the creation of the first form of life and its sophisticated evolution?

• If this is possible, why is it no longer happening, so scientists need to use their external intelligence?

In a lighter vein, by such subsitution of cellular nuclei for genetical ends, scientists can ensure that only atheists survive in future!

Dear Saidevo:

1. Where did I use words "external interference by scientific intelligence" in my post #380? Please point out.

Anyway, let me answer this very fundamental question that many of you ask -

When ALL the organic and inorganic LIFE molecules (that I have talked about before) come in contact in a milieu (inside a membranous space) they start interacting between them .... boom the LIFE began about billion years ago.

The key word is MOLECULAR INTERACTION or INTERPLAY which needs to be understood here fully. Recall, what I said about a Forest gaining properties NOT found in the individual trees, and liquid water gaining its tremendous property NOT found in individual water vapor molecule.

2. Then, there was challenge by the environmental factors... slowly and steadily the Biological Evolution was set in motion..to survive better in the inclement weather, this evolution worked every minute of everyday, albeit very very gradually, to give rise to a complex organism like Man (Dolphins, migratory birds, fishes etc etc)

3. Biological Evolution is happening all the time... the process is very very slow, that's why it is not easily apparent to YOU.

In a serious note, when I wrote about human cloning and the possibility of Immortality of Man (like Saidevo himself eternally living), I was sending an arrow across the bow of all Theists - that Man created Gods and Religions, and now he has immortalized himself - must be a deathblow to the idea of an Ishwara standing in the Milky Way and governing each and every action of Man!

How come you didn't see the arrow?

:)
 
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namaste shrI Sangom and others.

I have a question for you. The Buddhists' explanation of life and karma, besides the analogy of lighting lamps, also resembles the waves in an ocean: no wave is permanent, yet waves are continuously created by karmic agitations in the ocean.

Besides the unsatisfactory point you have mentioned (post #399), this concept is akin to the Christian concept of creation and destruction of souls. Do we have in Hinduism, a similar concept of new jivas being created besides the existing ones being eternal? Any scriptural references here?

I think according to the Vivarana School and Prakaasaatman's views, Brahman is reflected in as many living bodies (entities) as are generated by nature (in the case of humans, this will mean successful copulation). So, jivas are not created in a certain sense but one becomes available as soon as a body fit for life is produced in this vyaavahaarika world.

From the pov of a person clouded by Maaya, a new jiva originates, that's all; it cannot be said that it "originates" from Brahman or anywhere else.
 
Shri Saidevo,

I am not an authority on scriptures. But I do think that corresponding to the eternal spiritual reality universes appear and disappear in space and time and at the time of appearance of an universe new jivas come into being but they become one with brahman. They are not destroyed. They emerge out of brahman and merge into brahman. The wave analogy is apt here.

Dear Sravna:

Excuse me for asking this basic question to you and your Theists comrades:

You all say "I don't know Vedas, Sanskrit or Scriptures much; even when I know, I am not an authority on these things"... and then you proceed valiantly to elaborate the enigmatic doctrines enshrined in those books!

How is this possible?

The same question to those who don't know Aramic or Arabic, but still talk in loftier glory about what's said there!

I am puzzled.

Cheers.
 
namaste everyone.

smt.ReNukA said in post #395 that guNa also means 'a single thread'. Perhaps she had the idea of sUtrAtman at the back of her mind. Here is how the concept of 'recording our karmic seeds' for use in the next birth is explained in our texts:

वायुरनिलममृतमथेदं भस्मान्त ँ शरीरम् ।
ॐ क्रतो स्मर कृत ँ स्मर क्रतो स्मर कृत ँ स्मर ॥१७॥

vAyuranilamamRutamathedaM bhasmAnta ~M sharIram |
oum krato smara kRuta ~M smara krato smara kRuta ~M smara ||17||

Sankara's commentary on this mantra says:

Now, as I am dying, let my vAyuH--vital force, give up its physical limitation and attain its divine nature which is all-pervading amRtam anilam--immortal Air, i.e., the sUtrAtmA (hiraNyagarbha). The word 'attain' has to be supplied to complete the sentence. The idea, 'And let this subtle body, purified by rites and meditation, ascend', is also understood, by virtue of the solicitation for the path (to ascend by). Now, this body, being offered as an oblation to fire, may be reduced to ashes. Since Brahman has AUM as Its symbol, therefore, consonantly with the meditation followed (by the dying man), Brahman, which is called Fire, and is Truth by nature, is presented here as identical with AUM. O mind, whose characteristic is volition, remember, the time has arrived when all that has to be remembered by me should be remembered; therefore (you) remember all that has been thought of so long. O Fire, remember, whatever work has been done from by childhood; that too do thou remember--this repetition implies earnestness.

SadAnanda's vedAnta sAra explains it further (Tr.svAmi NikhilAnanda):

91. Consciousness associated with this totality is called sUtrAtma, hiraNyagarbha and prANa etc., because it is immanent everywhere and because it identifies itself with the five great uncompounded elements endowed with the powers of knowledge, will and activity.

92. This aggregate made up of three sheaths such as vijnAnamayakosha etc., (which forms the limiting adjunct) of hiraNyagarbha is called the subtle body as it is finer than the gross universe. It is also called the dream state, as it consists of the impressions of the waking state; and for that very reason it is known as the merging place for the gross universe.

93. Consciousness associated with each individual subtle body is known as taijasa (full of light) on account of its being associated with the effulgent inner organ (antaHkaraNa).

94. The individual limiting adjunct of taijasa too, made up of the three sheaths, such as vijnAnamayakosha etc., is called the subtle body, as it is finer than the gross body. It is also called the dream state, as it consists of the impressions of the waking state, and for that very reason it is known as the merging place for the gross body.

95. The sUtrAtma and taijasa, at that time, through (subtle) functionings of the mind, experience the subtle objects. Witness such Sruti passages as, “taijasa is the enjoyer of subtle objects” (Mand.Up.3).

96. Here also the aggregate and individual subtle bodies are identical, like a forest and its trees or like a lake and its waters, and the Sutratma and the taijasa, which have those bodies as their limiting adjuncts, are also identical like the spaces enclosed by a forest and its trees or like the skies reflected in the lake and its waters.

97. Thus do the subtle bodies originate.
98. But the gross elements are all compounded.

For a diagrammatic representation involving the sUtrAtma, check (although it is from other traditions)
Untitled Document
Esoteric knowledge of sleep
 
Dear Sravna:

Excuse me for asking this basic question to you and your Theists comrades:

You all say "I don't know Vedas, Sanskrit or Scriptures much; even when I know, I am not an authority on these things"... and then you proceed valiantly to elaborate the enigmatic doctrines enshrined in those books!

How is this possible?

The same question to those who don't know Aramic or Arabic, but still talk in loftier glory about what's said there!

I am puzzled.

Cheers.

Many of our theist friends, imho, cook the data to prove the theory at the centre, I believe. I remember my having had to do this sort of a "reverse substitution" in one particularly difficult Physics Practicals (Lab work) where the objective was to prove a particular equation by means of a set of experiments. My readings were so much off the mark even after repeating it three times that I had to cook up one set of data, keeping others fixed to the lab actuals so that the value of the "constant" came within the acceptable range of the prof.

If such is the tactics, there is no need to know sanskrit or scriptures or whatever the Acharyas have really stated. Our stock-in-trade need be some commonly used words and an overall capacity to present them in some form, not necessarily cogent even.
 
Many of our theist friends, imho, cook the data to prove the theory at the centre, I believe. I remember my having had to do this sort of a "reverse substitution" in one particularly difficult Physics Practicals (Lab work) where the objective was to prove a particular equation by means of a set of experiments. My readings were so much off the mark even after repeating it three times that I had to cook up one set of data, keeping others fixed to the lab actuals so that the value of the "constant" came within the acceptable range of the prof.

If such is the tactics, there is no need to know sanskrit or scriptures or whatever the Acharyas have really stated. Our stock-in-trade need be some commonly used words and an overall capacity to present them in some form, not necessarily cogent even.

Dear Sangom:

I really enjoy reading your posts like this... :)

Regards.
 
...APJ Kalam is a rocket scientist by profession;
Y, I am sure APJK was not reading the Quran when he designed the rockets and neither were his Hindu assistants reading the Vedas. They both claim, i.e. Quran by Muslims and Vedas by Hindus, that they contain everything there is to know, including rocket design :).

Cheers!
 
sangom,

your post re cooking up figures to coming with the 'correct' answers reminded me of my pre university practicals at loyola college may/june 1968. that year exams were delayed due to anti hindi agitation.

that particular day it was unusually hot and humid, and the superivisor put on the fan, and provided relief to the test takers.

except, one,

who had to find the acceleration due to gravity, using the pendulum.

his figures thanks to the ceiling fan, came no where near the expected value. the poor guy was getting upset, and it was only then, it struck the examiner the effect of the celing fan on the swing of the pendulum. on the sly, he reached down to a drawer (the practical supervisors are internal lab folks) pulled out one of the lab reports, and told this student to copy the figures. much to the amusement of rest of us :)

btw, in the physics and chemistry exams of those days, there was no focus on the process of doing the experiment. the answer
had to be right ie for madras acceleration due to gravity had to be between 9.78 to 9.83 m/s2 to get the max. marks and same went
for all other lab exams. :) i dont know if things have changed now.
 
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Y, I am sure APJK was not reading the Quran when he designed the rockets and neither were his Hindu assistants reading the Vedas. They both claim, i.e. Quran by Muslims and Vedas by Hindus, that they contain everything there is to know, including rocket design :).

Cheers!

www.abdulkalam.com
Kalam, in his own biography, cherishes his time and encouragement of his 2 teachers - Muthu Iyer and SivaSubramania Iyer, that led him to rocket sciences.

The first airplane was made by Shivraj Talpade in India, but his funding by a king was obstructed by the then British. This was based on the VaimAnika Shastra by Rishi BaradwAj.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzzVeGK6hLg
[URL="http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2004-10-18/mumbai/27162445_1_plane-wright-brothers-air-show"]http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2004-10-18/mumbai/27162445_1_plane-wright-brothers-air-show
[/URL]
 
www.abdulkalam.com
Kalam, in his own biography, cherishes his time and encouragement of his 2 teachers - Muthu Iyer and SivaSubramania Iyer, that led him to rocket sciences.

The first airplane was made by Shivraj Talpade in India, but his funding by a king was obstructed by the then British. This was based on the VaimAnika Shastra by Rishi BaradwAj.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzzVeGK6hLg
A flight over Chowpatty that made history - Times Of India

How is this relevant to the discussion here? Do Quran and Vedas contain everything there is to know including rocket design?

Kalam has very many Muslim and Hindu friends. When he went to Schartz High School in Ramanad city, most of his friends were Brahmins and NB Hindus.

That's not the point here!

I believe Kalam is a Theist because he is afraid of some unknown thing or is tied down by the legacy of tradition!

Or he is reading Quran regularly, hoping that he will be reappointed as the President by the UPAII..!!!!!!LOL

:)
 
I take strong exception to this insult on a great Indian.
Why do we disparage great people. We never respect great Indian, We see Muslim, Hindu, Brahmin, NB, panjabi, UPA, BJP. The problem is with the viewer and not the viewed. Please look at yourself first, have you even done 1% of the sacrifice the other person has done. Are you jealous of their success because you are a miserable failure? When you point at someone to blame or ridicule, there are three fingers pointing back at you. Appreciate others, so you too may be appreciated some day.
 
People have the right to ridicule Dr. APJ Kalam, for the Theist in him... perhaps not as the President, IMO!

Maybe, someone else may ridicule him for his association with BJP, RSS, NDA I... that's the nature of politics- the beast...

If you want to worship him as your God, please do so....

Stop preaching others...
 
"Please look at yourself first, have you even done 1% of the sacrifice the other person has done. Are you jealous of their success because you are a miserable failure?" -post 416.

Go see yourself in the mirror and give a %

How much was your success? 0..00001%

How do you know Dr. APJ K was a success?

He was just appointed as the President... Did he do anything better than other Presidents before or after him? What did he do?

Stop this nonsense right now!
 
Y, I am sure APJK was not reading the Quran when he designed the rockets and neither were his Hindu assistants reading the Vedas. They both claim, i.e. Quran by Muslims and Vedas by Hindus, that they contain everything there is to know, including rocket design :).

Cheers!

who is "they" such vaguenes from you is a surprise for me :).i never have heard apjk or his asistants claim such tall talks.i am sure you have link :)
 
who is "they" such vaguenes from you is a surprise for me :).i never have heard apjk or his asistants claim such tall talks.i am sure you have link :)

Dear Nachi:

I understand exactly what N meant... I get it... "they I" means Hindus and Muslims, "they II" means here the Quran and Vedas.

It need not evoke such outburst here! :)
 
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Philosophy studies the fundamental nature of existence, of man, and of man’s relationship to existence. As against the special sciences, which deal only with particular aspects, philosophy deals with those aspects of the universe which pertain to everything that exists. In the realm of cognition, the special sciences are the trees, but philosophy is the soil which makes the forest possible. | “Philosophy: Who Needs It," 2 - AYN RAND
 
Dear Nachi:

I understand exactly what N meant... I get it... "they I" means Hindus and Muslims, "they II" means here the Quran and Vedas.

It need not evoke such outburst here! :)

y ,nara knows when he sees smileys in my post,i am poking big bro :) .but seriously i doubt apjk or his assistants nor the apoureshya smrithis claim modern rocket sciences.at least this is news to me.
 
Person A goes on performing Karma without any forethought as his senses lead him to. The results (reaction) of these Karmas have to be experienced. But in our parent Hindu religion with its emphasis on each individual and the liberation of that atma, etc., probably our lawgivers of ancient days correctly judged the pulse of our folks and made some changes to make it appear that "as you sow so you reap", so that it sinks more forcefully in people's minds, imho.

Sorry, I am late on this discussion..

If knowledge of one person can be transferred to another, then everyone could have become literates and geniuses. There should be an underlying dharmi/substrate/person to hold that knowledge and/or to accept it and/or to realize that knowledge. Thus, the Buddhist and the advaitic idea of 'Only Consciousness' is incomplete.

This Self of the nature of Consciousness, is also a knower, seer, enjoyer - Prasna Upa 4.9

[Thus Consciousness is not Self and neither can exist alone, like fragrance cannot exist without a flower. Then english must be rewritten to say I am intelligence, I am kindness, I am love etc...rather than I am intelligent, kind and loving.]

One may see, the Self is eternal, of the nature of knowledge, who also has attributive knowledge. Though there is infinite knowledge, we perceive the world through the different organs - intellect, mind, senses, which are like the cage and limited. Thus our consciousness is limited to such perception. This 'modified' knowledge is responsible for our KARMA. The pleasure or pain are the different states of this 'modified knowledge'.

One may accept the knowledge as is or refute or do differently, So, the Self is responsible for deciding upon the 'modified' knowledge. The Self is the doer, enjoyer, knower etc. So, the Self is to be held responsible for his choice of actions. Self/Jiva/Soul is the individual, and its essential/inherent nature is not going to change, but his 'modified' knowledge/consciousness changes and this becomes the cause of prArabhdha-karma that results in rebirth, based upon these factors:

1. the environment [The self being atomic, leaves with the prana, subtle mind,sense into the space, then comes down thro rain, merges with the food and eaten by men.. sperms .. so the birth of the soul has infinite possibilities and hence the choice of womb]

2. his own structural make-up (organs of intellect, mind, sense) based on the subtle senses with the Self (if not realized)

Upon realization, The 15 constituents merge in their own respective sources; The karmas and the jivatman qualified by consciousness, all become unified in that Supreme immutable principle Mundaka Upa: 3-2-7

3. association of new avenues (knowledge sources, or jihadists etc.) according to level of consciousness, which may change our consciousness further (attributive knowledge).

Thus, by enriching our Prana (breath), food (hence the food for all parts of the body), clear knowledge, pure actions etc., the senses/mind /intellect can be driven towards goodness, the right reasoning. Thus, our consciousness would expand, and the self would experience higher bliss, [thus vanishing those subtle senses/desires, hence sublate the mind, there remains subtle/pure intellect] which would help us liberate from the cycle of karma/samsara.

YajnyavAlkya says "The Atma has to be seen, heard about, reflected and meditated upon, thus we learn everything else." Bri 2.4.5

"He attains with the omniscient Brahman, all desirable qualities" Tait. 2.1.1

As we exist in different levels in knowledge/jnana, the one with the highest jnana is the Omnisicient Brahman. The Self doesn't lose its individuality but attains the Brahman, and its omniscience. Thus, Self is always the nature of knowledge, but varying.

 
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