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There’s a distinct caste-elitism in Carnatic sabha culture in Chennai, says musician

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prasad1

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I know nothing about music. This article was informative. I am sure people who live it will have different take on it.

The over obsession with religiosity, ritualism and the lyrical meaning of the compositions has been one of the reasons for a lack of an independent instrumental narrative. Everybody including the instrumentalist is unfortunately seeking to express religious meaning through re-creating in their instrument something of the effect of the words. And we know that the vocalist will naturally win that battle! The import of language in music has to be separated from linguistic meaning. Personal religious belief needs to be detached from Carnatic music.

On the social front, we think that we are very inclusive and that the Carnatic music world never discriminated against gender and caste that the blame squarely lies with external factors. Whenever I have raised the issue of caste it is the same old arguments that are thrown back, which includes the listing of the number of non-Brahmin artists who have been part of this world in the 20th century. While we hide behind these listings, we miss the truth of the discriminations they faced and we all know so many incidents. We brush aside the obvious brahminisation they had to undergo for acceptance. We don’t see that the majority of these names are only of those who emerged in the early 20th century, which means that for the last 40 years we have hardly any musician for other communities. There have been a few, and even in their cases, we need to look at how this acceptability happened. It is only from these investigations that we will realise that at the core of it Carnatic music is very upper-caste. This is not a purely Chennai phenomenon. It is seen in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh and also in the music nurturing Brahmin population across the world. Internationally, we see another battle of inclusion and acceptability being played out between the high-brow Brahmin organisers and the only other community that supports Carnatic music: Sri Lankan Tamils. Kerala, to some extent, is different and that has got to do with its social structure. Anyone outside Carnatic music recognises that there is lack of nuance and sensitivity in the Carnatic community about how caste and gender operate in society. The fact that India has so many successful women and has in fact had a woman President and a woman Prime Minister does not mean we are a society that treats women equally. Leave alone the violence against women, even the most liberal men are subconsciously, and sometimes unconsciously, discriminatory. So when we talk about discrimination we have to look a little deeper as to how these notions operate. We in Carnatic music shift positions based on the compulsions of the context but always safeguard the core Brahminical identity of that music. The music should not be stuffed into one socio-aesthetic address.

I think there is a need to revisit the way we have practiced this art, articulated its form and also begin ways of reaching it to a larger population. Here I must add that this will only happen if we can be honest and introspect about ourselves and accept that we have held it back from the larger world beyond its patrons.

http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/r...e-in-chennai-says-musician-tm-krishna-2124546
 
Something I don't understand. I thought many of the South Indian performing arts originated from devadasis. Surely there were no Brahmins involved in that stage.
 
Something I don't understand. I thought many of the South Indian performing arts originated from devadasis. Surely there were no Brahmins involved in that stage.

Devadasis were essentially dance performers and music was an item assisting their performance. I don't think the devadasis themselves sang and danced too; the singing was done by someone else. Hence it is only the present day Bharatanatyam, probably Kuchipudi (I am not sure), Odissi (it had its origins in the Puri temple dance performed by specially appointed class of danceuses to the Gita govinda verses), the Mohiniyaattam of Kerala, etc., which have their origin in temple dance form.

Music had always been separate though dancers could also be singers. Carnatic Music (CM) had been a "preserve" of the tabras. That is why we have the CM trinity of Thyagarja, Dikshitar and Sastri and nobody from any other caste!

Shri T.M. Krishna is justified in criticising the sabhas but CM has been steadily coming down. I think that is because the CM teachers do not restrict the discipleship strictly on the basis of musical talent but have become lenient in coaching all types of people. Anyway, since CM has been a brahmin music, it has either to become common man's music or else go out!
 
கர்நாடக சங்கீதம் ஆகட்டும் அல்லது ஹிந்துஸ்தானி இசை ஆகட்டும். கேட்பதற்கும் மகிழ்வதற்கும் ஒரு ரசனை வேண்டும். இந்த ரசனைக்கு ஜாதி, மதம், இனம் கிடையாது. ஆயிரம் சப்பைக்கட்டு கட்டினாலும் இசையை அனுபவிப்பதற்கு மொழி மிகவும் அவசியம். தமிழ் நாட்டுப்புறப்பாடல்களின் தோற்றம் என்ன? அதற்கும் கர்நாடக இசைக்கும் தொடர்பே கிடையாதா? காய்தல் உவத்தல் இன்றி சிந்திப்பது முக்கியம்.
 
Namaskarams,
The CM is brahmanical because other caste people rarely come forward to learn music as a subject or to that matter as an extra curricular activity. Outside TN we can see some children are nowadays coming forward to learn CM. These children are coming out to learn cine music, guitar and other instruments but not vocal CM. This is the reason CM is vanning.

Anbuden
Adiyen
 
The over obsession with religiosity, ritualism and the lyrical meaning of the compositions has been one of the reasons for a lack of an independent instrumental narrative. Everybody including the instrumentalist is unfortunately seeking to express religious meaning through re-creating in their instrument something of the effect of the words. And we know that the vocalist will naturally win that battle! The import of language in music has to be separated from linguistic meaning. Personal religious belief needs to be detached from Carnatic music.

If Mr. Krishna means bhakti which is the theme of many CM numbers, my question to him would be what is wrong with that. He may call it religiosity but I would call it love for God and love is the theme of good music world over.

I am unable to understand what he means when he says ritualism. Is it the format in which the kutcheris are laid out? Even there, there is no reason to complain because a format is a discipline and discipline is necessary to make a kutcheri meaningful.

The lyrical meaning is the life of the kriti. Without that the numbers will be just mechanical and appealing to very few. The lyrics make the song interesting. In CM the lyric is mostly about bhakti. Who prevents him from singing "ஓடுகிற தண்ணியில உரசிவிட்டேன் சந்தனத்த, சேந்துதோ சேரலியோ செவந்த மச்சான் நெத்தியில" and then elaborate it by assaying the raga. But he can never get away from the lyric there too because the lyric there captures the rasika's imagination as much as the music in it.

Going into linguistics, we have all only word order languages in CM and so a lyric and its meaning can never be separated from the music that goes with it.

Why should the instrumentalist-unless he is accompanying a vocalist in a concert-follow the scheme of expressing a lyric. He has more freedom. He can innovate and play out his cascading notes to some other scheme. I enjoy the instruments playing out beautifully in the cinema song Yamma Yamma Yamma. If AR Rehman can do it why our other violinists can not do it? An instrumentalist should join a symphony like the musicians in the west do and play his instrument along with other instrumentalists so that we can have a symphony music. But that is not happening here and the rasikas of CM or the sabhas or the vocalists can not be held responsible for that.

More later.
 
Both Carnatic Music & Bharata Natyam are rooted in the ancient sanskrit text - Bharata's Natya Shastra !!. Hence both are Brahminical origin's, just that the dance form was more performed by devadasis.
 
Namaskarams,

Dear Jaykay767, because the scripts were in sanskrit it cannot be attributed to brahmins. Sanskrit was taught in schools and any body can study and understand the nuances of the language. Sanskrit, as a language, was never restricted to brahmins only.


Anbuden'
Adiyen
 
Mr. Raghavan, Sanskrit was an exclusive preserve of the South Brahmins & the Kings in the ancient past. Sasnkrit was taught only in Brahmin patashalas, & only the Brahmin kids, Kings, princes were allowed. No one else was allowed to recite the language of the Gods !!. Cheers,
 
Mr. Raghavan, Sanskrit was an exclusive preserve of the South Brahmins & the Kings in the ancient past. Sasnkrit was taught only in Brahmin patashalas, & only the Brahmin kids, Kings, princes were allowed. No one else was allowed to recite the language of the Gods !!. Cheers,

Hi Jaykay,

Your posts give the following impression:

1. Sanskrit was the preserve of brahmins. They held it tight to themselves refusing to part with it to others who were knocking at their doors for a share of it.

2. The kings were hands in glove with the brahmins in this conspiracy.

3. Sanskrit was the language of the Gods.

Before giving my comments I would request you to confirm that my understanding of your view is right. Please.
 
Carnatic Music (CM) has its root from 'Devara Pann Isai.' Major Ragas in CM have 70 to 80% similarities with Devara Panns. It was deliberately sidelined by some vested interests, to make CM as B-centric.

A community viz., Isai Vellalar played a major role in the development of CM, apart from modification of some instruments like 'Kanjira.'

Like the Smartha Trinity - Muthuswamy Dikshidhar, Shyama Shastri and Thiagaraja - there was a Tamil Trinity viz., Muthu Thandavar, Marimutha Pillai and Arunachala Kavirayar, during the same period or earlier.

In fact, Tamil Thatha, U V Swaminatha Iyer (an Ashtasasram Iyer) started his career as a musician but later, switched over to literature.

While Nadashwaram and Thavil are exclusive to Isai Velllar community, and Bs have no role probably due to difficulty in playing, other instruments are being played by Bs also apart from Vocal.

Most of the Vagyagarahas are from Smartha Sect - the Trinity, Gopalakrishna Bharathi, Papanasam Sivan, Koteeswara Iyer, Patnam Subramania Iyer, Oothukadu Venkata Kavi etc.

Apart from Isai Vellalars, Smarthas have a major share in CM; both vocal and instrument playing.

The role of Brahacharanam Sect has been quite significant both in vocal and instrument - GNB, Musiri, Bombay Jayashree - Flute Mali, Lalgudi, MSG, TN Krishnan, Trichyh Sankaran, Palghat Raghu, TVG, Vinayagram;

whereas Vadama's role is fairly restricted to only Vocal and Mridhangam - Mudikondan, Maharajapuram, Madurai Mani, DKP/DKJ (not sure), M D Ramanathan - Palghat Mani Iyer, Umayalpuram and TK Murthy - VVS in Violin.

Chembai, Semmangudi and Veena Balachander hailed from less populated sects Chozhial, Vathima and Ashtasasram respectively.

Palghat musicians has a separate lobby and almost all popular musicians are recipient of Padma awards.

Iyengar's role is reasonably restricted - Ariyakudi, Varadhachari, Mani Krishnaswamy, T N Seshagopalan, Sudha Raghunathan and now T M Krishna.

Though States are bifurcated in line with language, Sanskrit and Telugu continue to dominate CM in TN. The popularity among NBs is very negligible as CM has been twisted in such a way that NBs think it is a B music.

Of late, it becomes a senior citizen music.

If CM has to be a broad based one, Tamil must be given prominence. Otherwise, CM may face tough times to survive.
 
Only CM is the private domain of brahmins.Hindustani classical was patronised by muslim kings and only a special categories of women took to it. Both hindu and

muslim performers took to it

The compositions for carnatic music are in telugu and sanskrit .

the composers combined bhakthi with music that it became inseparable.

brahmins happened to take to it and it became their monopoly.

since it became a part of living making carnatik music exposure to music became a pre requisite for marriage of girls.

dancing was limited to devadasis . rukmini arundale converted sadhir to bharatnatyam and made brahmin girls take to it.

thats how dancing became a brahmin thing.

Ultimately music and dance is the private preserve of brahmins in south , the sabhas do not encourage others.

however others learn tamizh isai and try to perform in sabhas. it perhaps appeals to NBs
 
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The major female singers in Carnatic before DKP were Isai Vellalar..That it has become Brahmin oriented is a recent phenomenon, I guess
 
I do not understand the purport of this topic. We have been hearing this kind of discussion for the past 60 years. Usually this topic will come up for discussions during Music season in December each year. The criticism that premium Music Sabhas in Chennai favouring Brahmin Vidhvans is partly correct. This may be due to non-availability of vocal vidvans from other Castes who could attract audience. In the past we had Chittoor Subramanya Pillai, Madurai Somasundaram, M.M. Dandapani Desikar, T Brinda, T Mukta, M S., M L V., were all legends in carnatic music, today we have Unni Krishnan, Yesudas, Dr Sivachidambaram. Of course majority of famous instrumentalists like Nadaswara Vidvans, Mruthanga Vidvans, violinists are not from Brahmin community .

The popular Cinema music has been developed by talented people from all communities like C R Subburaman, G Ramanathan, Viswanathan & Ramamurthy, Ilayaraja, A R Rahman, D Imman, Harris Jayaraj and others.

It is an acknowledged fact any form of fine art is the gift of God. It does not discriminate on the basis of sex or caste. Initially Carnatic Music and Dance forms in South were held wholely in the realm of Devadasi community of the past who had dedicated their life in the service of Temples. There are well researched papers and Books on the subject are available.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
In the past we had Chittoor Subramanya Pillai, Madurai Somasundaram, M.M. Dandapani Desikar, T Brinda, T Mukta, M S., M L V., were all legends in carnatic music, today we have Unni Krishnan, Yesudas, Dr Sivachidambaram. Of course majority of famous instrumentalists like Nadaswara Vidvans, Mruthanga Vidvans, violinists are not from Brahmin community .

Not correct.

All Nadaswara Vidwans are from a particular community.

However, Iyer community has been producing some outstanding Mridanga Vidwans, over the years - Palghat Mani Iyer, Umayalpuram, TK Murthy, Mannardugi Easwaran, Guruvayur Dorai, Palghat Raghu and the list goes on.

Fathers of MS and MLV were from Iyer community, per information.
 
That is why Dapangkuttu is still the best..everyone can 1 2 3 4 Get on the Dance floor and enjoy.

For me music has to come from the heart..it must flow from the heart then to the limbs to want to get up and dance.

Even though I learnt western music and play the piano I never really liked playing the Classical pieces even though they are master pieces par excellence....I preferred playing some Pop songs or any non classical song..the reason being..Classical music of any kind is technical..its needs more attention and we use grey matter to connect with it and it stops there.

Non classical on the other hand is not technical in expression..its comes from the heart and we lose ourselves and enjoy..the Rhythm just gets you..you do not have to think to enjoy the rhythm..your mind simply does not exists.

The best is to let a little child hear music.

Play classical music of any kind for a 3 year old and then play a non classical catchy song ..watch the kid get up and dance to the non classical song.

I have seen little kids get up and dance to Bhangra or Dapangkuttu beats but seldom to any classical song.

Same goes with dance..Classical is technical but no heart.

Non Classical is not technical but all heart.

There was a dance competition in called Dil Se Naachein Indiawaale hosted by SRK...that captured the dance from the heart phenomenon.
 
That is why Dapangkuttu is still the best..everyone can 1 2 3 4 Get on the Dance floor and enjoy.
For me music has to come from the heart..it must flow from the heart then to the limbs to want to get up and dance

Doctor,

Well said. Music is an expression of joy, it comes from the heart. There is nothing classical or non-classical. Let us not analyse the Flower, but enjoy its beauty and fragrance as it is. Music should make the listner to forget the mundane world and take to the level of divine ecstasy. If I could enjoy Carnatic , Hindustani , Western, Arabic or road side Music without any discrimination, its all the gift of God Almighty. I love to enjoy the serenity of Church Music, exotic rhythms of Sufi Qawwali , ecstatic Bhajans equally.

I may not understand a single syllable of Luciano Pavarotti the famous italian Tenor, or Umm Kulthum the legendary Egyptian Singer,when they sing, but, they take me to different world of ecstacy and bring tears in my eyes. That is the effect of music.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
I do not understand the purport of this topic. We have been hearing this kind of discussion for the past 60 years. Usually this topic will come up for discussions during Music season in December each year. The criticism that premium Music Sabhas in Chennai favouring Brahmin Vidhvans is partly correct. This may be due to non-availability of vocal vidvans from other Castes who could attract audience. In the past we had Chittoor Subramanya Pillai, Madurai Somasundaram, M.M. Dandapani Desikar, T Brinda, T Mukta, M S., M L V., were all legends in carnatic music, today we have Unni Krishnan, Yesudas, Dr Sivachidambaram. Of course majority of famous instrumentalists like Nadaswara Vidvans, Mruthanga Vidvans, violinists are not from Brahmin community .

The popular Cinema music has been developed by talented people from all communities like C R Subburaman, G Ramanathan, Viswanathan & Ramamurthy, Ilayaraja, A R Rahman, D Imman, Harris Jayaraj and others.

It is an acknowledged fact any form of fine art is the gift of God. It does not discriminate on the basis of sex or caste. Initially Carnatic Music and Dance forms in South were held wholely in the realm of Devadasi community of the past who had dedicated their life in the service of Temples. There are well researched papers and Books on the subject are available.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Shri Brahmanyan,

Well said!
clap2.gif
 
Dear Renu,

There are two types of music.

1. Will make us shake our heads.

2. Will make us shake our hips and limbs!

You know in which category dappAngkooththu is! :lol:
 
a bhashan on carnataka sangeetham a la somayajulu in sankarabharanam from RRji is warranted for preserving our classical music form.
 
Dear Renu,

There are two types of music.

1. Will make us shake our heads.

2. Will make us shake our hips and limbs!

You know in which category dappAngkooththu is! :lol:

I think for the same music some members will shake their hips while others will shake their heads (in disapproval).
 
a bhashan on carnataka sangeetham a la somayajulu in sankarabharanam from RRji is warranted for preserving our classical music form.
Dear Krish Sir,

Whatever new wave methods are added to CM, the authentic form will never be destroyed and at least a few teachers will

pass it on to the next generation. People who appreciate the authentic form will always exist! :)

BTW, classical rAgams are added in the film songs by many composers but only difference is that a few different rAgams

are mixed up and given as a 'cocktail rAgam'!! :D

Here is a melody number in which NAttai, NeelAmbari and traces of NaLinakAnthi are 'cocktail-ed':

ennavaLE adi ennavaLE


P.S: The word 'cocktail' is used because 'that' tune is also intoxicating!!
 
I fully agree film music based on classical music is always more attractive than others.

Malargal kaettaen in O kadhal kanmani . Is its charm due to classical base or lyrics?What is the raaga?

But you also have " naane varugugiren' in same film -not classical enough but equally charming perhaps lyrics alone.
 
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