Untouchability in Hiduism

[kudumi]

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Recently, I have seen quite a number of posts by one particular indivividual, who has prefferred to throw mud and slander on hinduism, by attacking the traditions followed in temples.
That individual seems to have a hidden agenda and impaired comprehension, and has made up his mind and is finding reasons for doing so.
So I have decided to start my own thread about the experiences I had with Untouchability in the hindu religious places,and the society itself.

My first post is going to be about my expereices in Sringeri Saratha Peetam when me and my wife visited along with a group of other devteed in a tour organised by KSTDC.

I request devotees and believers to freely contribute their comments, and share similar experiences.

I think it is our personal responsibilty to collectively face the wrong information spread about us.

 

[NARAS]

Recently, I have seen quite a number of posts by one particular indivividual, who has prefferred to throw mud and slander on hinduism, by attacking the traditions followed in temples.
That individual seems to have a hidden agenda and impaired comprehension, and has made up his mind and is finding reasons for doing so.
So I have decided to start my own thread about the experiences I had with Untouchability in the hindu religious places,and the society itself.

My first post is going to be about my expereices in Sringeri Saratha Peetam when me and my wife visited along with a group of other devteed in a tour organised by KSTDC.

I request devotees and believers to freely contribute their comments, and share similar experiences.

I think it is our personal responsibilty to collectively face the wrong information spread about us.

sir - even indian constitution bans untouchability generally, but not specifically. for example men are not allowed in women's colleges and vice versa. is this untouchability? like wise brahmins not allowing non brhmins as priests, employers or administrators in bramin temples cannot be called untouchability. in religion, if a person discriminates another person worshipping same god, then that is called untouchability. for e.g. white christians discriminating against black christians even though the blacks also worshipped jesus. muslim sects killing each other inspite of having same common god.
but the gods of bramins & non bramins are different. actually even bramins do not have a common god! LORD SHIVA is worshipped by saivaite bramins. orthodox vaishnavaite bramins will not accept Lord shiva as their god even today. is this untouchability? like that orthodox saivaite bramins will not accept Lord Vishnu their god even today. when there r so many differences even among bramins, how can equality enforced between bramins & non bramins on the basis of religion? the non brahmin religion is totally animist.. bramin faith is totally idol worship.

even religions like islam, christianity & buddhism have pathetically & totally failed to enforce 'equality' amongst their various sects, inspite of having a common god. how can total 'equality' be enforced in hinduism which is an amalgamation of various beliefs and gods????? orthodox bramins & orthodox hindus are 100% vegetarian, whereas non bramins are 100% non vegeterian. this a major difference.the only way to bridge the gap is either bramins to become non veggies. this can never, ever happen. a bramin will even fast himself to death, but he or she can never think of eating anything non vegetarian. the other option is for non brahmins to become vegetarians! this is very easy for them.but will they do that????

ACTUALLY THE VERY FACT THAT BRAHMINS RESTRICT DEVOTEES, PRIESTS & EVEN GODS OF RIVAL SECTS INTO THE TEMPLES OF THEIR SECT BEYOND A POINT CLEARLY PROVES THAT THE MOTIVE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THESE PRACTICES WERE NOT TO TREAT PEOPLE OF OTHER COMMUNITIES AS UNTOUCHABLES. THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS ON NONBRAHMINS CERTAINLY. BUT THESE WILL NOT COME UNDER PURVIEW OF UNTOUCHABILITY!
THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS EVEN FOR BRAHMINS!

 

[kudumi]

Ithu Ennoda Type Illa

While I dont want to bore the busy members with details. I would like to stress that, swamiji was very easy to approach and he treated everyone equally in front of my own eyes, and smiled at a childish request made by my wife, I would like to go straight to Samapanthi Bojanam that afternoon in the matam.

It was afternoon and time for lunch. We all were invited to have free lunch in the matam. We all went to the luch hall. Even though it was crowded, there was no rush, or queue, or the ususal stampede associated with these sort of incidents.

We were all seated, I was with no shirt, nobody asked my caste, noby asked anybody's caste, and there was no mention of the word caste so far anywhere.

The food was nice, rice, sambar, rasam, kootu and a curry. It was all vegetarian, no onions, garlic...totally saatvik.

All our bus mates were seated around us and opposite to us. The seat next to me was occupied by a person looking like tamil. I was conversing with my wife in Tamil and he knew I am tamil too.

He: Sir thamizha.
Me: Aamaam, Thamizhthan.
He: Naan salem sir. Tourist vandi driver. Inga adikkadi varuvan. Neenga?
Me: Naan Madras, ippo bangalorela( followed by a brief discussion-cursing my fate as Madras was losing out economically-the reason was enlightening later).
he: Sammi nalla type sir...periyavaru irukkumpothu kooda nearaya varuvaen ( I dont know who he was referring to). Inga vanthaalum inga neraya saapda maatein...Inga saapadu romba saatharanama irukkum, ithu namma type kedayathu. Athe mathiri inga irukkara koil ellathaliyum ippidi than irukkum. Namakku chicken mutton illanna vandi odathu.

Please observe the last line.....nobody has forced anybody to eat a totally vegetarian food, nobody has asked for caste....eating a healthy food, saatvic food , plain food was entirely the choice of the individual. Above all, everybody was eating in the same hall without any reference to caste and swamiji treated everybody equally.

 

[kudumi]

Thanks

sir - even indian constitution bans untouchability generally, but not specifically. for example men are not allowed in women's colleges and vice versa. is this untouchability? like wise brahmins not allowing non brhmins as priests, employers or administrators in bramin temples cannot be called untouchability. in religion, if a person discriminates another person worshipping same god, then that is called untouchability. for e.g. white christians discriminating against black christians even though the blacks also worshipped jesus. muslim sects killing each other inspite of having same common god.
but the gods of bramins & non bramins are different. actually even bramins do not have a common god! LORD SHIVA is worshipped by saivaite bramins. orthodox vaishnavaite bramins will not accept Lord shiva as their god even today. is this untouchability? like that orthodox saivaite bramins will not accept Lord Vishnu their god even today. when there r so many differences even among bramins, how can equality enforced between bramins & non bramins on the basis of religion? the non brahmin religion is totally animist.. bramin faith is totally idol worship.

even religions like islam, christianity & buddhism have pathetically & totally failed to enforce 'equality' amongst their various sects, inspite of having a common god. how can total 'equality' be enforced in hinduism which is an amalgamation of various beliefs and gods????? orthodox bramins & orthodox hindus are 100% vegetarian, whereas non bramins are 100% non vegeterian. this a major difference.the only way to bridge the gap is either bramins to become non veggies. this can never, ever happen. a bramin will even fast himself to death, but he or she can never think of eating anything non vegetarian. the other option is for non brahmins to become vegetarians! this is very easy for them.but will they do that????

Suresh sir,
Kalakkunga. Some guys are bringing out problems that are not existent at all. so I decided to unveil the maya .
Request you to share your experiences also.

 

[NARAS]

ACTUALLY THE VERY FACT THAT BRAHMINS RESTRICT DEVOTEES, PRIESTS & EVEN GODS OF RIVAL SECTS INTO THE TEMPLES OF THEIR SECT BEYOND A POINT CLEARLY PROVES THAT THE MOTIVE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THESE PRACTICES WERE NOT TO TREAT PEOPLE OF OTHER COMMUNITIES AS UNTOUCHABLES. THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS ON NONBRAHMINS CERTAINLY. BUT THESE WILL NOT COME UNDER PURVIEW OF UNTOUCHABILITY!
THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS EVEN FOR BRAHMINS!

SIR - THE ABOVE POINTS IN RED CLEARLY PROVE THAT THE MOTIVE OF OUR FOREFATHERS & ANCESTORS IS NOT TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST ANY COMMUNITY ON THE BASIS OF BIRTH!!!!

 

[NARAS]

Suresh sir,
Kalakkunga. Some guys are bringing out problems that are not existent at all. so I decided to unveil the maya .
Request you to share your experiences also.

SIR - it was said that the sringeri acharya had told that he would court arrest rather than not practice untouchability! i think the acharya had only highlighted the point that unlike in other religions, personal freedom of each & every sect is very high in orthodox hinduism. so for centuries, saivaites have not allowed vaishnavaites into their places of worship and viceversa. the bottomline is that each & every sect wants to have full freedom within the 4 walls of the place of worship of its own god. they will not interfere in affairs of gods of other sects or religions. so they would also not allow other sects, even brahmins to interfere in their orthodox affairs inside places of worship. this is certainly not untouchability. unfortunately even these sort of things in india are mentioned by politicians, media and 'rationalists ' as untouchability! it is the immaturity of these guys which is the root cause of all the problems!!!

BTW i visited the sringeri acharya for darshan dec.1998! i visited kanchi acharya for darshan in 2005 (july i think!). IN BRAHMINISM, EVEN GODS HAVE RESTRICTIONS! LORD SHIVA, FOR EXAMPLE CANNOT GO INTO SANCTUM SANCTORUM OF VISHNU TEMPLE! LORD VISHNU CANNOT GO INTO SANCTUM SANCTORUM OF SHIVA TEMPLES! WHEREAS IN OTHER RELIGIONS, THOUGH THERE ARE MANY SECTS, THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, AND THIS ONE GOD CAN ENTIRE THE PLACE OF WORSHIP OF ANY SECT OF THAT PARTICULAR RELIGION.! NOW ALL 'HINDUS' & ALL BRAHMINS OF ANY SECT ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER ANY TEMPLE. I THINK THIS IS THE MAXIMUM. I FEEL 'REFORMS' HAVE INSIDE TEMPLES HAVE REACHED THEIR SATURATION POINT.THERE IS NO SCOPE FOR ANY MORE 'REFORMS' INSIDE TEMPES! THE DOOR SHOULD BE PERMANENTLY CLOSED!!!!!!!!

 

[kudumi]

Dei Avaein meen kaaraein da.

In my college days, I never stayed in the hostel.
I was a madrasi, and there was no reason why I need to do stay in the hostel.

There were a couple of guys who became good friends. But most of the other guys had a kind of anti brahmin feeling. Say for example, when some brahmin guy gets a placement in a campus recruitment, they accuse the placement officer.."avaal velelaya kaattitta".

During the lunch hours or when we have free time, I used to get keys from one of the guys and stay in his room. I used to sleep in the same cot. And when he had some technical difficulties, I help him out.

And when some other guys ask me a technical question, I always start with "I think..this is so because so and so..". I was accused of being a confuser as they felt beginning an answer with "I think" is a sign of not being certain what one is talking about. So I was accused of having a politcal agenda in mind.

OK..coming to the main point, one day, one of the guys( not a brahmin) called me and said.."dei, avaen meen karaenida, avan kooda poi saavagaasam vachikara?".

I was surpriced...he never catches fish anymore,and how is he a meen kaaraein? And even if he still catches fish, how does it matter? afterall he is a fello human being.

When I develop a friendship, I never see the caste. "I think" most of the brahmins also do not think about caste.

So brahmins atleast during the modern times do not think about caste when having a friend.

 

[NARAS]

In my college days, I never stayed in the hostel.
I was a madrasi, and there was no reason why I need to do stay in the hostel.

There were a couple of guys who became good friends. But most of the other guys had a kind of anti brahmin feeling. Say for example, when some brahmin guy gets a placement in a campus recruitment, they accuse the placement officer.."avaal velelaya kaattitta".

During the lunch hours or when we have free time, I used to get keys from one of the guys and stay in his room. I used to sleep in the same cot. And when he had some technical difficulties, I help him out.

And when some other guys ask me a technical question, I always start with "I think..this is so because so and so..". I was accused of being a confuser as they felt beginning an answer with "I think" is a sign of not being certain what one is talking about. So I was accused of having a politcal agenda in mind.

OK..coming to the main point, one day, one of the guys( not a brahmin) called me and said.."dei, avaen meen karaenida, avan kooda poi saavagaasam vachikara?".

I was surpriced...he never catches fish anymore,and how is he a meen kaaraein? And even if he still catches fish, how does it matter? afterall he is a fello human being.

When I develop a friendship, I never see the caste. "I think" most of the brahmins also do not think about caste.

So brahmins atleast during the modern times do not think about caste when having a friend.

sir - you can even have muslims & christians as your friend! but bramins being pure vegetarians, will feel comfortable only with veggies and in india only bramins are veggies !!!! (& vice versa!!!)

 

[kudumi]

Manitha Neyam than mukkiyam.

I have a friend, who even though not a Brahmin is very high in following what I would call part of Brahminical principles.

He has told me many number of times that he does not believe in God. But he is a Blue cross member. He spends money and time in helping animals.

He is a total vegetarian, and does not even drink milk ( I am too).

Even when he eats in Hotels, he will make sure they have not added eggs for taste. Once he was adviced to take Muesli, but he refused because, it contains honey which is an animal product, and he thinks is extracted by hurting the bees.

Also he never hesitates to use physical force when needed. Legends of he slapping an auto driver when he demanded extra money are famous in our frieds circle. He says " Evan thappu pannalum thatti kekkanum..namakku adi patta kooda kavala illa".

He even points out when I wear a leather shoe or a belt.

From the above brief introduction, it can be seen that in some aspects he is as good as a brahmana or even higher. ( He even comes into the kitchen in my home-hope goundamani reads this )). He comes to collect kuppai meni plant to feed his cats.

Now coming to the main point:

My friend says, he never believed in caste ( so am I). Even when we make fun of him asking for his caste...he says " saathiya thooki kuppaila poduda...manitha neyam than mukkiyam".

I tried to corner him.....I asked him..
"Did you have any community certificate at all?"
He: "Yes, I had a community certificate".
Me: " Did you use it when you finished 10+2 to get engineering admission to an engineering college to get a subject of you choice, which is a crucial turning point in many lives? If you had used it at that time, you have used it as TRUMP CARD. You might have denied admission to someone more deserving than you because, you claimed using a caste certificate that you deserve special consideration, even though he and you might have studied same way, and lived in same conditions?"

He was thinking deeply for a while...I was expecting that he would use his philosphy of equality, manitha neyam etc...claim he did not use his caste certificate. But he finally said...."Yes I used my caste certificate for engineering admission, and I will not use it again". I was simply struck by his truthfullness and honesty. But even a person of such high ideals, does not hesitate to use the trump card when needed.

I wonder, caste is running so deep in our people, and only brahmins are brainwahsed into believeing that there is no caste?

 

[hariharan1972]

Your friend is a good man

He was thinking deeply for a while...I was expecting that he would use his philosphy of equality, manitha neyam etc...claim he did not use his caste certificate. But he finally said...."Yes I used my caste certificate for engineering admission, and I will not use it again". I was simply struck by his truthfullness and honesty. But even a person of such high ideals, does not hesitate to use the trump card when needed.

I wonder, caste is running so deep in our people, and only brahmins are brainwahsed into believeing that there is no caste?

Mr Kudumi,

Your friend is a good man. Wish we had more of such guys, who could "reach out" to the apologists of Reservation in it's current format.

Actually i would have no problems if Reservation was extended based on "economic criteria" WITHOUT diluting "entry standards".

If by general consensus 80% of India is poor & 85% of india comprises of non-brahmins & other religious minorities, the intersection of the two would mean that 68% of non-brahmins are "economically backward". I don't understand what's the fuss about extending reservations on economic criteria.....

Hey wait a minute !!!...Isn't the reservation agenda all about the stinkingly rich goundar's, chettiar's, mudaliar's son gaining a back door entry ?

You can't do the pole vault ? ok ! you are an OBC ? rich one at that ? here's the ladder....climb up & jump over !!! Social Justice established. Long live Social Justice !!!

 

[NARAS]

sirs- everybody says untouchability is wrong, but nobody is able to define as to what is untouchability. even indian constitution and laws say untouchability is an offence,but they do not define as to what constitutes untouchability. if a person claiming superiority over other on the basis of birth is untouchability, even this is not convincing. after all, what prevents the victim from claiming that it is he who is actually superior? remember in scriptures there is nothing called hinduism. there is bramin, non bramin and shudras. but you cannot find the word 'hinduism' in any orthodox scripture.
'Hinduism' is more of an arrangement rather than a religion.

before this arrangement called hinduism originated, bramins and non bramins were for all purposes adherents of different faiths, and thus there were bound to be differences. both sides discriminated against each other. it is not justifiable, but certainly not untouchability.
in religions like islam & christianity, persons belonging to different sect, but worshipping same god kill & maim each other even today! for e.g. in israel 2 factions of palestinians are engaged in bloody warfare for many days leading to loss of many lives. the worst form of untouchability existed and still exists in some forms in south africa, where white christians discriminated against blackchristians in all ways, though both of them were of same, religion, same god. whereas in brahminsm,there has not been even single instance of a bramin of one sect killing a bramin of rival sect or even same sect for religious reasons.

'shudra' is the sanskrit word for non vegetarian. the refusal of shudras to turn vegetarian, the support they gave to anti hindu religions like jainism, buddhism, islamic invaders and british invaders, all alienated them from the bramins. the lower castes were the most beneficiary persons because of jainist, buddhist, islamic and british invasions too.

In any case, I do agree that in a modern democracy, atleast in public spheres there should not be any sort of discrimination.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- gandhiji has said that bramins consider meat eaters as untouchables. (WHAT IS HINDU DHARMA -Compilation of views of gandhji on various issues.) as long as bramins and other upper castes were in control of temples and administration, killing of animals for meat was banned in india, and hence there was no untouchability. but islamic invasion, forced bramins & other forward castes out of power and also reduced them to a minority. so vegeteranism could not be implemented, and worse non vegeteransm became the order of the day. had islam not invaded india, the population of bramins & other upper castes would have been very high and they would have been in power also. vegeteranism would have been implemented and there would be no untouchability also. so you can surmise that untouchability in the present form started with islamic invasion of india.

 

[chanakya]

I beleive who ever are against reservation or not against reservation for upliftment of people. They are against only on the reservation given to already wealthy people.
I like to mention my experience. The people I moved during my UG were all nice people and I never heard any of my friends speaking ill of other caste or caste people. But I did my PG in chennai and almost all of them had the caste feelings or they are fanatics and this included even the Christians and only i came to know that christians have a deep caste divisions among them. For the first time when i was asked by one of my classmate about my caste my answer was what is the need for my caste among friendship. But only then I came to know that it is deep rooted in the minds of the people. And I should change myself (Do in Rome as Romans do). Also only in Chennai I severly felt the antibrahmin feelings. And so I also made to change.
myself being in S/W industry get lot of party. Since I am veggie I am not able to join most of the parties. Nowadays I am hesistating to participate since there are very less varieties for us. So this makes us isolated. And many people understand me and they dont think I am discriminating. I think if our ancestors have shown how our(Brahmins) life style is then our Goebells(EVR) words would not have had any effect. People would have understood that our practises are isolation rather than discrimination.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- even the paramacharya has said that if a bramin comes into close contact with persons of other varnas, he may be exposed to their eating habits, which may tempt him to have a taste, eventually leading him to live a life which will be against basis tenets of brahminism. this is why bramins do not mingle much with persons of other varnas, as they are distinct from all other groups in the world.