What do we mean by DRAVIDA/ARYA?

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

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Years back I was going through a Book on racial divisions of Bengal written by an Anthropologist. He had classified a sizable percentage of present Bengalis (30% if I remember correctly) as Dravidian. For him Dravidian was a race. For Caldwell, Dravidian meant a group of South Indian languages. The original term Dravida in Sanskrit meant people living in the South of Vindhyas.

Brahmin communities in India are traditionally divided into two regional groups: Pancha-Gauda Brahmins and Pancha-Dravida Brahmins according to the following shloka found in the Rajatarangini of Kalhana (12th century):

कर्णाटकाश्च तैलंगा द्राविडा महाराष्ट्रकाः ।
गुर्जराश्चेति पञ्चैव द्राविडा विन्ध्यदक्षिणे ॥
सारस्वताः कान्यकुब्जा गौडा उत्कलमैथिलाः ।
पन्चगौडा इति ख्याता विन्ध्स्योत्तरवासिनः ॥

"The Karnatakas, Tailangas, Dravidas, Maharashtrakas and Gurjaras; these five (-types who- ) live south of Vindhya (- mountains) are (called-) "Dravida" (- brahmins); (whereas-) Saraswatas, Kanyakubjas, Gaudas, Utkalas, and Maithilas, who live north of Vindhya (- mountains) are known as "five Gauda" (- brahmins)."

Of course now Dravida is known as the name of the political parties of Tamil Nadu.

A number of discussions in this forum talk about Aryan and Dravidian.

The generally accepted view is that Dravida is a term denoting the region south of the Vindhyas and also a group of languages.

If we think of it as a race, then we have to accept that there are Dravidian people all over India like the Bengalis and they speak different languages.

Some of the view points are given in this Wikipedia article which is not the final word.

Dravidian peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same problem arises with the term Aryan. There it is even more complicated with international ramifications.

Aryan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am of the view that most people especially take the view which fits in with their belief.

My point is that when we are not even in agreement about the term Dravida/Arya how can we have a meaningful discussion?

So what do you think?

 

[kunjuppu]

nacchi,

i think this has become another of those instances of the proverbial elephant pouring mud over its head, as far as our community is concerned.

even now, in my family, i hear whispers, about tambrams being aryans and the 'brahmana kaLai' as the proof. except that even my dark skinned dravida looking relatives believe in it, but do not spout forth this nonsense about 'brahmana kaLai'.

i heard this pseudo anthropological thinking was first spouted by the tambrams over a century ago for the first time, more as a tool to keep other castes down. now it has been turned topsy turvy and our own ancestor's quotes have become albatrosses on our shoulders.

we indeed had ancestors whose vision went no further than their own skin and household. the pigeons have now come home to roost in our rafters.

 

[pviyer]

nacchi,

i think this has become another of those instances of the proverbial elephant pouring mud over its head, as far as our community is concerned.

even now, in my family, i hear whispers, about tambrams being aryans and the 'brahmana kaLai' as the proof. except that even my dark skinned dravida looking relatives believe in it, but do not spout forth this nonsense about 'brahmana kaLai'.

i heard this pseudo anthropological thinking was first spouted by the tambrams over a century ago for the first time, more as a tool to keep other castes down. now it has been turned topsy turvy and our own ancestor's quotes have become albatrosses on our shoulders.

we indeed had ancestors whose vision went no further than their own skin and household. the pigeons have now come home to roost in our rafters.

I am not sure if people always use this term to describe the skin color. I have an elderly person in my family, who is among the darkest. But one look at him, invokes respect from one and all. He is indeed like that, dark but his face shines bright with wisdom , intelligence and spirituality and he indeed represents all these qualities mentioned. I have heard visitors and relations mention in private, in his absence, "enna kalai, enna tejas".

 

[kunjuppu]

I am not sure if people always use this term to describe the skin color. I have an elderly person in my family, who is among the darkest. But one look at him, invokes respect from one and all. He is indeed like that, dark but his face shines bright with wisdom , intelligence and spirituality and he indeed represents all these qualities mentioned. I have heard visitors and relations mention in private, in his absence, "enna kalai, enna tejas".

pv,

i think this is more an exception. maybe due to this man's age. i have lost count of marriage proposal set aside just to the tone of the skin colour. i think indians as a whole are very colour conscious, even though for the rest of the world we are all 'darkies'.

 

[pviyer]

pv,

i think this is more an exception. maybe due to this man's age. i have lost count of marriage proposal set aside just to the tone of the skin colour. i think indians as a whole are very colour conscious, even though for the rest of the world we are all 'darkies'.

I agree with you, as I have even heard dark skinned relatives calling some dark people, whom they dont like as "karuppan, karuppan". Then his wife sagely remarked "nenga enna periya sevappa". We have plenty of such examples.

But when there is tejas in someone's face regardless or white or dark that glow is unmistakable. Why all that I have heard a brahmana elderly lady mention to a youngster seeing the face of sukhi sivam "nalla kalla". So I guess there are exceptions to your rule, but by and large I do agree that people's assessment is always superficial.

The reverse is also true, a dark skinned orthodox person, visiting tamilnadu and chennai for the first time (happened after 2000 AD) remarked to me , that he was shocked to know that some of the youngsters were brahmins," looking at their kala( as they in andhra without that i) they did not look like one. They dont have any satvam." This guy belonged to andhra where he was used to seeing many non brahmins who were fair skinned like reddis. But that was not a factor that impressed him.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Origin of the Aryan Migration Theory

William Jones the English Philologist strated it all with his poioneering work on comparative Philogy. He was practically the founder of the science of Comparative Phillogy.

His famous quote

The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists; there is a similar reason, though not quite so forcible, for supposing that both the Gothic and the Celtic, though blended with a very different idiom, had the same origin with the Sanscrit; and the old Persian might be added to the same family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jones_(philologist)

Then came Max Mueller who was a Romanticist. He was the son of a Romantic poet. He fell in love with the Vedas. He never came to india. He propounded the theory of Aryan migration. He was talking about a common ancestory in the steppes of Central Asia from which every one branched out.

For Müller, the culture of the Vedic peoples represented a form of nature worship, an idea clearly influenced by Romanticism. He saw the gods of the Rig-Veda as active forces of nature, only partly personified as imagined supernatural persons. From this claim Müller derived his theory that mythology is 'a disease of language'. By this he meant that myth transforms concepts into beings and stories. In Müller's view 'gods' began as words constructed in order to express abstract ideas, but were transformed into imagined personalities. Thus the Indo-European father-god appears under various names: Zeus, Jupiter, Dyaus Pita. For Müller all these names can be traced to the word 'Dyaus', which he understands to imply 'shining' or 'radiance'. This leads to the terms 'deva', 'deus', 'theos' as generic terms for a god, and to the names 'Zeus' and 'Jupiter' (derived from deus-pater). In this way a metaphor becomes personified and ossified. This aspect of Müller's thinking closely resembled the later ideas of Nietzsche.

He was not a racist. When Max Muller talked about Aryans he did not mean only the fair skinned Indians.

Nevertheless Müller's work contributed to the developing interest in Aryan culture which set Indo-European ('Aryan') traditions in opposition to Semitic religions. He was deeply saddened by the fact that these later came to be expressed in racist terms. This was far from Müller's own intention. For Müller the discovery of common Indian and European ancestry was a powerful argument against racism, arguing that "an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar" and that "the blackest Hindus represent an earlier stage of Aryan speech and thought than the fairest Scandinavians".

Max Muller paid a heavy price for his love and praise of the Vedas and Indians.

Müller's comparative religion was criticized as subversive of the Christian faith. According to Monsignor Munro, the Roman Catholic bishop of St Andrew's Cathedral in Glasgow, his 1888 University of Glasgow Gifford Lectures on the "science of religion" represented nothing less than "a crusade against divine revelation, against Jesus Christ and Christianity". Similar accusations had already led to Müller's exclusion from the Boden chair in Sanskrit in favour of the conservative Monier Monier-Williams.

Max Müller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When I was proof reading and transcribing Max Muller's book "India What can it teach us?" I was shocked to see that the American edition was heavily edited with footnotes contradicting Max Muller's views. The editor's introduction was highly critical of his views. Of course the publisher was a well known Christian Publishing house.

A better edition is available in the Internet Archives.

People like Lokamanya Bala Gangadhara Tilak welcomed the Aryan Migration theory. He wrote a book about the origin of the Aryans.

Neither William Jones nor Max Muller were Missionaries.

Their ideas were totally opposed to the Racial theories of the Christian Missionaries. We will talk about that later.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Some one once said that "Indians are one of the most racist people." I have asked many scholars and teachers who move with people throughout India about this. They all say "Yes. It is sad. But it is True."

Talking about perceptions most people in the East and North who have not known South Indians think that all South Indians are Black. Especially Tamilians. Some people even go to the extent of almost questioning me when I say I am a Tamilian.

On the other hand Tamilians have an impression that all North Indians are fair. I do not know what they look for? But my wife was called settu veetu Amma and my children Settu Veetu paiyan in Chennai by the poorer people.

When I was in college one of my class mates was from Nigeria. I used to get angry when people were even reluctant to shake hands with him. But Freddie used to laugh and tell people "Don"t worry man. It won't stick." I know he was hurt. My East African Asian friends used to boast that "No African has ever entered their house."

I know about that attitude of the Indian Americans towards the Blacks.

It is time that we examine our attitude.

 

[kunjuppu]

.. It is time that we examine our attitude.

nacchi,

i don't think anyone will bother to examine their attitude either till it hurts them in the purse or their child marrying out of caste. that has been my experience all along.

take our own tambram instance. how many of our grand parents ever wondered about their status in society which they took for granted. even in tamil nadu, always under the shadow of justice party and its children the past 100 or so years, even now there is only hatred, but not accommodation by most of our community. atleast my take on it.

when we do not even love us without conditions, how can we extend this to other communities?

 

[siganeswarie]

It general thought
i like this

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Sri "Nacchinarkiniyan",

I agree with your view ". . . that most people especially take the view which fits in with their belief."
It is inborn nature for every human being to identify himself as superior to some one who is less superior? The cause may be different. It may be Economic status, Racial, Regional disparities, Colour of Skin, Language, Educational superiority etc. These ideas are pumped into us from childhood onwards by others, like the little caterpillar turning into a wasp mentioned in the Vedantic stories for "Bramara Keeta Nyaya". Again these Aryan / Dravidian theories are "scholarly" exposition of individual thinking. We chain ourselves by these differences and put blinkers which blind us from looking at a wider world of reality which is "Human Love". They are useful for academic discussions. As we grow older we understand the futility of these theories.

It is good that discussions take place on this subject in our Forum.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri "Nacchinarkiniyan",

I agree with your view ". . . that most people especially take the view which fits in with their belief."
It is inborn nature for every human being to identify himself as superior to some one who is less superior? The cause may be different. It may be Economic status, Racial, Regional disparities, Colour of Skin, Language, Educational superiority etc. These ideas are pumped into us from childhood onwards by others, like the little caterpillar turning into a wasp mentioned in the Vedantic stories for "Bramara Keeta Nyaya". Again these Aryan / Dravidian theories are "scholarly" exposition of individual thinking. We chain ourselves by these differences and put blinkers which blind us from looking at a wider world of reality which is "Human Love". They are useful for academic discussions. As we grow older we understand the futility of these theories.

It is good that discussions take place on this subject in our Forum.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Shri Brahmanyan,

This is with special reference to the senetnce "As we grow older we understand the futility of these theories." I think this generalization is not true. For each person who grows old realizing the "futility" of (whatever theories you had in mind) there are tens or even hundreds of people who grow old to become ossified in their narrow world views and deliberately make it narrower.

The reason to me, seems that each person (at least the male Tabra) wants to feel himself the special favourite of his imagined god and such an auto-suggestion continuously nourished by religious inputs and practices, makes a person think that his favourite god (ishTa devata - they have a name for it too) will be taking special care of his interests once he is forced to quit this world and journey (?) into the unknown, which is a frightening prospect for vast majority of human minds (except those who have the streak of adventure like David Livingstone or Christopher Columbus).

I am reminded of a character played by the Late M.R. Radha, in an old Tamil movie, who used to pray "Meenakshi ! eene maTTum rakshi !!" Religion and religious mutts help a great deal in such auto-suggestion.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Dravidan & Aryans

In much earlier history books the Dravidans were inhabitants even in the north and the invaders from the immediate West, known as Aryans, drove the dravidans down south. According to some anthropologists, the two, Dravidans and Aryans, have distinct differences in their features. There could have been lot of cross-breedings unrecorded to give lie to all these talks. Anyway, love thy neighbour.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

In much earlier history books the Dravidans were inhabitants even in the north and the invaders from the immediate West, known as Aryans, drove the dravidans down south. According to some anthropologists, the two, Dravidans and Aryans, have distinct differences in their features. There could have been lot of cross-breedings unrecorded to give lie to all these talks. Anyway, love thy neighbour.

This post shows how the racial theories started. The divide in the Hindu society is from the ancient times. But our Sasthras which did warn us about Milechas and other tribes did not pass any injunction against any one called a Dravida.

The very fact of mention about pancha dravida Brahmins shows clearly that it was only a geographical division and not a racial one.

Some people tend to blame the Christian Missionaries for this Arya/dravidian divide. It is wrong. These theories originated with the Hindus themselves with some caste claiming racial superiority over others based on colour of the skin. Of course not that all the Brahmins were fair or all the other castes black. There are fair people among other castes and black people among Brahmins. But this theory served to assert their superiority.

These racial theories were based on the color of the skin of a person.

For these people and the Christan missionaries the Aryan migration theory proved a Godsend. Aryan migration was made to Aryan invasion. The White men with a long history of invading countries and destroying ancient civilizations could never believe that there could be gradual peaceful migrations.

The racial theory was given by a further boost by the pioneering work of Robert Caldwell who wrote the book Comparative philology of Dravidian languages.

Robert Caldwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course then we know the rest.

But these theories are based on Scientific racism

Scientific racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scientific racism has been used to justify Black slavery in the U.S and apartheid in South Africa. Hitler was talking about pure Aryans.

It is sad that when the whole world has rejected Scientific racism and its conclusions we in India continue to swear by it.

It is most unfortunate that The Tamil Brahmins were/are some of the biggest supporters of the theory.

According to this theory many of close relations including my grand mother belonged to a different race than myself. I am not stupid enough to accept that.

Thank you.

 

[nachi naga]

the dna,genes etc suggest marginal differences amongst various homo-sapiens.divide and rule is a good policy for rulers.now can every-body,become a rulers or class of rulers?therein lies the connundrum.

aryan or dravidian are just labels.to conquer peoples mind and benumb them to servility.awake arise is the call of viveka-ananda rishi.lets duh dat.