what to do.

[kunjuppu]

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It is said that the only two things certain in life are death and taxes.

The taxes, I pay my dues to Caesar, as and when he demands. Meekly. And without fail.

Now comes death. It is our last journey here, and like birth, it is lonely, personal and above all into the unknown. I do not know if there is currently any other community on this earth with so elaborate rituals as we do to treat our dead. Personally I have done the same for my parents and maternal grandparents, and culminated this effort with a visit to both kasi and gaya.

Now I have been thinking of my own curtains drawing and wish to seek some input. I would like to leave behind a set of instructions including cremations, but simple straightforward prayers based on hindu scriptures. I believe that these are meant mainly consolation for the living, for no amount of prayers of the living, can in my opinion spare the scoundrel his dues. Neither a saint or complete sinner, I guess I fall midway with the large humanity on this earth, and am willing to pay my dues in the next world as my creator feels I deserve.

I had eschewed wearing poonal initially because, I did not quite live upto its supposed values. Later on, I became convinced of the essential bipolar hypocracy surrounding it and continued not to wear it. Also did not want to pass on something which I did not believe in to my children.

So on my passing away, I am quite sure my family will face a dilemma as to what to do. I do not want the concept of kattu poonal and all the rigmaroles attached to it. I am more attracted towards arya samaj or some simple hindu way of despatching me, and ensuring some portion of my ashes consigned to the nearby lake Ontario.

Any suggestions folks?

I hope to mull over the suggestions, and I hope I can share my final decision here. Which ofcourse I will discuss with my wife and my children.

Thank you.

 

[sangom]

My dear Kunjuppu,

I feel the very first thing one should learn is not to bother at all about how our body is despatched and how our family comes to terms with the grief - if any, according to me, because the death of a retired old fogey will not IMHO cause much grief; on the contrary if a person is laid up as a prelude to death, for more than a week or so, the departure will be a welcome relief and this is what I have been observing in real life.

So why at all bother about what happens back here? Leave it to the people to manage as best as they feel like. And why is it that you think of "some simple hindu way", "some portion of my ashes consigned to the nearby lake Ontario", etc., unless you feel an inseparable attachment to that lake?

As for me I just don't bother at all. Que sera sera.

This awareness came to me some 12 or 13 years ago. One man (tabra) had filled most of an eighty-pages notebook with details about his after-death rites. It was so detailed covering every minute detail from the type of cloth to cover the DB, where exactly it should be placed in the house before the religious rites commenced, to the full descriptions of various items to be given as daanam and so on were precisely written down. That extreme preoccupation opened my eyes, so to say.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

lake ontario, is the the body of water near toronto. i will spare my comments for a few days. again thank you.

i am very much inclined to think the way you suggest. but there are a couple of things nagging my mind and hence this post and request you and folks of your likes, to reach the depth of your erudition to come up with a solution, if possible.

one: the time of death is a traumatic one as such. after 57 years, i still remember my mother's ஆட்டம் when her mother died and all the arguements that went on over the dead body, that i have described before. frankly i do not think such hysteria will happen in my case.

but most of my friends here are the orthodox tambrams, and much as i love them, they consider me 'strayed from the flock' and would do utmost to 'make up' for it. thus inducing (or putting fear) in my wife/children to don a kattu poonal, and go through elaborate funeral & ceremonies after that.

i am craving for a simplicity - a simple cremation and consigning of ashes. something of remembrance then. prayers for comfort.

another instance, my mom did not want any ritual or ceremonies. but my aunt, since mom who is orthodox, actually prayed as my mom was dying, for her to pass before the night was over (dwadisi) and cremation immediately. also urged me to go to kasi/gaya, which i did, and felt good, though disgusted at the corruption.

to be frank, my wife, is very much akin to your description of the tambram woman, who once crossed the black water, threw her upbringing to the winds, the moment she found that her spouse did not care so all i want is a two or three sentence broad based guidance, which if not forthcoming, i will just summarize what i have stated in this post.

incidentally, my fil, was like your friend - elaborate instructions to his son, re details of ceremonies and order not to be chintzy or shortcut. the poor chap spent a fortune including live cows, goats and what not - much to the chagrin of the vaadhyars who were expecting cash now they had to figure out a way to get good value for these animals, which they did not want to keep.

we do badly need a reformist oriented guidance. arya samaj weddings are very well organized. but i have looked up in the internet. nothing about arya samaj death ceremonies. also arya samaj ceremonies will be devoid of caste connotations. which i want.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Shri.Kunjuppu,
You have disturbed my mental peace(kidding).I will be completing 78 years this August
and my children often say that I may survive for a minimum of 10 years more and likely to develop some more defects/deficiencies in my faculties and indirectly give them trouble(JOKING)Already I am able to hear only partially with the help of Hearing Aids in both the Ears.
I am told that human beings are not perfect when alive, but becomes perfect after death.A dead body floats in water,but a living person drowns in water.Try to enjoy every moment of life till the last.After our death,it is the headache of other surviving family members.
Even if a person write down in black and white what all should be done after his/her demise,that person has no means to verify whether everything was done accordingly.I think one can express one's views to close family members and leave the matter at that
level.Even if a person may not leave any property to wife and children,close family members may be relieved to a great extent if money is set apart to fulfill one's last wishes.
I now recollect how two persons were dealt with after they expired.I got a message that my sister's husband(aged 85 years)had passed away.While I was thinking of informing my domestic help from S/C community to look after my house till my return,she herself came
to my house and informed me that she may not be coming the next day as she had to attend the funeral of one brahmin bachelor who was earlier residing in our locality,but moved to a distant place to stay with his NB friend.This person while staying in our locality used to extend monetary help to all needy poor people and everyone liked him.He had helped his NB friend financially to set up a small scale industry.Since both his kidneys failed he vacated the rented place and moved to his friends place.Nearly 40 poor people whom he had helped went from our locality to attend the funeral.When I returned after attending the funeral and next day rites of my late sister's husband,my servant maid who was looking after my house in my absence lamented that the person who helped them could not get a decent funeral from his friend though he was benefitted a lot from his deceased friend.
She and her husband volunteered to bear the entire funeral expense to ensure a decent and honourable funeral to the body of the person who was so kind to so many poor people,his
friend called two labourers to dig a pit and just laid the body.She felt so bad that because they hailed from a lower caste their voice was never heard and was feeling guilty.

 

[sangom]

Shri Kunjuppu,

57 is too early, I think, to think of such things.

I would say you write down:—

"I am not particular about how my body is disposed of after death. It is not necessary to follow any involved rituals or anything. Please do not put yourself to unnecessary trouble and strain thinking that such things will please me."

Show it to your wife and let her know where you keep it, so that this will help your kids to answer your friends, in case. Will this not be good enough?

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Kunjuppu,

Greetings. It is quite possible, you may have spent couple of family get togethers expressing your views about last rites; it may also be possible, your near and dear know of your choices. from your posts one would see you as a person who allows his family to do what ever they are comfortable to do. So, what is the difference now? When you are alive, to certain extend you are affected by the deeds of your near and dear; when you are no more, it is not even going to affect you; why would you worry about that? I think, when the time comes, you should just go in peace. Let the near and dear decide what has to be done. They would think, what you would like and act accordingly. If you don't like to control your dear and near while you are alive, why would you like to control or direct them when you are not even here?

Just some food for your thoughts.

Cheers!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

There is a problem in all these instructions. Once a person dies there is no way that he can guarantee that his wishes are carried out. I do not believe in Anthyeshti. Once when I told my son about this, he said the ceremonies would be performed as per his wishes and not mine. It is true. People do it because of social pressure. My wife also believes in the ceremonies.

I would like to take Sannyasa before I die. Even if I am not able to do it before my death, I would like to do it before dying. But this does have a number of problems. The Anthyeshti for sannyasis is different from grahasthas. Then they have to be buried and a Siva Linga erected over the Samadhi. One of my uncles took Sannyasa before his death. They erected a Siva temple over his grave. But when the family later sold the property it created problems. There is a star hotel on the property now. I wonder what happened to the Samadhi.

At least on one aspect myself and my wife are particular. We do not want to die in a hospital. We do not want to be kept alive with life supporting systems. I want to die lying on the floor. My children know about this. But whether even these would be carried out is a moot question.

In my opinion Jala Samadhi is the best. Travel to Rudra Prayag and go for a bath. The chances of the body being found are slim. But then you have to dispose off all your landed and other property before that. If there is no body there would be a delay of 7 years before they can issue a succession certificate.

Nice thoughts. I like to talk about this, but every one in the family shouts me down.

It would be great to get the Siddhi of Iccha Mrithu. That is you die when you want to.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

May be I am not old enough to advise. Yet this is what I have to say:

(1)Bequeath your assets in whatever way you want. But please remember that whatever you give is not going to solve any problem to any one.. They will always need more. Whatever you bequeath is also going to be inadequate to emancipate any one. Understand that you bequeath just because you have and not because any one need it.

(2)Human life will always remain a painting not completed. Don't waste your time trying to make it a completed one. You are bound to fail.

(3)Just say good bye and go leaving the rest to those who live. May be there is another team waiting for you where you have to start a new innings.

I agree with Mr. Sangom.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Br careful when you distribute your assets. We do not know when we are going to die. Premature distribution will cause misery (for you).

I remember reading a case in the U.S where a person sued the doctors for predicting his death. He encashed all his assets, bought a Harley Davidson Motor cycle ( his dream) and spent all the money gallivanting. But then he did not die and was left with no money to live.

I think there are many of us who would do that (gallivanting) if we know exactly when we are going to die. :laugh:

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Death Wish

Did you come into this world with a clearly expecting that your parents will adore you with Velli Kaappu, Thangachain, etc.etc. Think always of living. Rest will go its course. Made property and failed to distribute properly? Made none? These should not bother you. Worry belongs to those who live on. Not the dead or unborn. The worldy matters and problems belong to this world. Not for gone. Nobody rules what or how you should do things. You have been given guidance to follow. If you cannot follow the guidance, just leave it. Ours is not an established 'religion' to dictate to you. In our way of life everybody has full liberty. Some do things which others do not do; because they do not do, they are not hanged again. In Christianity, if you are not baptized, you may not be buried. What you need is only Death Certificate. Peace. Peace. Peace.

 

[kunjuppu]

i don't know how i missed this. thank you for all the messages folks.

once again let me explain. i would like a simple cremation, with some prayers to satisfy my folks. i think this would be needed, as by nature, though not overtly religious or ritualistic, i am spiritual, believe in God and light the lamp every day to honour our tradition.

the sons have no poonal and i myself gave it up long ago.

it so happens that most of my closest friends are the traditional type and chances are that they will be the prime contacts for advice and helping out. just like i would be for them, if it so happens.

while i would respect their ritualistic traditionality, i know very well that they will go about doing things as it is done in india.

i do not want my son to wear a kattu poonal and go through elaborate ceremonies. recently a friend who married a trinidad hindu girl, was widowed. he took upon himself to transform her complete palghat madisar and what not, which appeared bizarre and this woman in real life really had no soft corner for indian traditions.

death appears to raise all the heebie jeebies out of the living.

just like i prefer the arya samaj wedding rituals (pure hindu casteless and vigrahamless), i was thinking of something along those lines.

re the assets, the children know and the wife. we have our wills, trustees and all that settled. no worry about from that front, though i have to agree that inheritance does bring out the worst in siblings. lost count of family splits due to that.

thank you all again for your valuable inputs.

btw i have no qualms about discussing death or after life. we came, we lived and we have to go. as such this planet is overcrowded.

 

[Yamaka]

"I believe that these are meant mainly consolation for the living, for no amount of prayers of the living, can in my opinion spare the scoundrel his dues. Neither a saint or complete sinner, I guess I fall midway with the large humanity on this earth, and am willing to pay my dues in the next world as my creator feels I deserve."

Dear K:

My two-cents on this very personal matter...(maybe, you don't want to hear from me!)

1. I am of the firm opinion that, if there is any Divine Retribution for all your perceived "sins" perhaps it comes before you actually die: like whether you are bedridden for a day, 10 days, 100 days or 1000 days with pain and sorrow or not.

What you can do about this "pre-death" is what you need to focus the MOST.

2. After your death, you are gone and the end of the story... your life is out and soul is lost in the wind .. there is nothing afterwards for you, period.

3. As you said correctly, what they do AFTER your death is your family's problem, whichever way they can deal with it.. you ask them what they want to do or not to do.

________________________________________--

What I told my kids and wife is this (I am only 60 now):

a. If I become a vegetable for some reason or other, pull the plug without hesitation. Don't cry for me... I had a wonderful ride... unbelievable ride in this world.

b. Wrap me in a clean white cloth and leave it in a grave six foot deep. Cover the grave with mud... and go home; have peace of mind.

c. What you do after that, is up to you - you need not think about me thereafter....

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

yam,

why would i not want to hear from you? pray explain.

thanks..

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Yamaka, Greetings.

The following discussion may not be appropriate; but, I am compelled to address it.

1. I am of the firm opinion that, if there is any Divine Retribution for all your perceived "sins" perhaps it comes before you actually [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]die[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR]: like whether you are bedridden for a day, 10 days, 100 days or 1000 days with pain and sorrow or not.

What you can do about this "pre-death" is what you need to focus the MOST.

If there is a Divinity, such Divinity would not 'punish' for the sins. Pain is the worst feeling. I would not see anyone in pain; most health professionals would not. I am a (male) nurse. Even if a person is very abusive to me, calling all sorts of obscenities, still I would not let that person suffer from pain. Even last week I was called a string of names for a length of two hours; when that same person was down and settling down, I was comforting that same person. I am not unique; every single nurse does this. When a mere mortel like a nurse could be this gentle to a suffering person, would you think a Divinity would curse a person with pain and suffering in retribution? I hope not.

There is no such thing as 'sin'. We do various things at various given circumstances. Only in the hindsight we realise about the impacts, in most cases. If we made any mistakes, we should make it a point to amend them. 'Sin' was the tool used by certain persons to control the masses in the name of religion.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

..yam,

unfortunately, many scoundrels have a good death. look at pol pot!!

the type of death maybe has nothing to do with how we lived? not so sure about that.

 

[Yamaka]

"'Sin' was the tool used by certain persons to control the masses in the name of religion."

Greetings... Raghy Sir:

I agree with you 100%..

Although my parents, many of my friends and relatives believe in sins and the "Judgement Day" when God punishes you for all the "sins committed" or rewards you for all the "good things" you did, my personal feeling and opinion is there is NO "Judgement Day" after death.

However, I am puzzled by the ease with which some people die, and others have a long protracted sorrowful death, many times with excruciating pain.. Why?

I don't know.. this is what perhaps I try to explain as "Divine Intervention or Retribution" - the term is used very lightly and jovially here!

I don't know whether there is any Providence, Divinity or God as described in the Holy Gita, Koran, Bible or Tora...

But one thing I am quite certain about IS the existence of Nature and its Massive Force or Power:

A combination of the chemical, physical and biological forces that govern this Universe - the Force that rotates this earth at about 1000 miles per hour on its axis creating nights and days, and the Force that moves this earth about 67,000 miles per hour around the Sun making various Seasons.

Before such Force or Power, I am just a small dirt... so I submit and succumb on my knees. Whether that Force or Power has the sense of "Justice or Retribution, as humans speak" is quite uncertain.

Most probably NOT.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear K:

Please read my reply to Raghy Sir.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear K:

Please read my reply to Raghy Sir.

thanks Y.

i did. i have had scoundrel relatives in palghat, who owned chit funds, where widows deposited their hard earned moneys.

some died with the proverbial புழு on their skin. others died laughing.

i have found that there is no cause and effect re how we lived, and how this could relate to our death.

i pray every day, several times, for a quick & easy death. i have seen my grandma suffer and die. so did my grandpa. both maternal.

my father died in a coma. my mother died sedated. i wish to die like my parents. it is a prayer. all the time.

 

[Yamaka]

"i have found that there is no cause and effect re how we lived, and how this could relate to our death."

Dear K:

Maybe. Some religious people believe that there is some correlation!

It could all be one random event: our body is made up of many, many organs and organ systems. When we are old, these systems fail mildly or massively, one at a time or many at a time.

Multi-system failure leads, perhaps, to "quick painless" death. Others come in a slow painful way.

Matter of randomness or what?....

I don't know...at this moment I have no control over it.

I try to keep myself "healthy" with "good practices": I walk about 3-4 miles a day and swim about less than an hour in deep pool water. I sleep like a log everyday, and control my calorie intake.

No smoking, no drinking.. lots of jokes (self-deprecating mostly) and laughter with wife and kids.

Let the death come whenever! I don't think about it much. No use of worrying about it!

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Yamaka, Greetings.

However, I am puzzled by the ease with which some people die, and others have a long protracted sorrowful death, many times with excruciating pain.. Why?

You sound as if, sudden death is painless and easy. The above statement is subjective.

Let us see some suddden death situations - (not accidents or homicides). in most sudden death situations like cardiac arrest, un controlled aneurysm, massive stroke, choking situations, choking connected to wheezing and shortness of breath etc.. They all are very painful; not only that, there is a consciousness of death and the feeling of not able to communicate the final words....every tissue screaming for oxygen, and the brain's awareness of that.....

In the case of gradual shutting down, the end is at sight; ample time to ease into the unknown; time to comfort the near and dear; time to enjoy the affection of near, dear and the strangers (health care team); luxury to 'shop around' the funeral arrangements!.. There are plenty pain medications are available. Some of the medications are slow acting and some are fast acting. Depending upon the availability of health care availability, one can take their time with tolerable pain.

I know, most members may not agree with my view, but I see it this way only.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri.Yamaka, Greetings.



You sound as if, sudden death is painless and easy. The above statement is subjective.

Let us see some suddden death situations - (not accidents or homicides). in most sudden death situations like cardiac arrest, un controlled aneurysm, massive stroke, choking situations, choking connected to wheezing and shortness of breath etc.. They all are very painful; not only that, there is a consciousness of death and the feeling of not able to communicate the final words....every tissue screaming for oxygen, and the brain's awareness of that.....

In the case of gradual shutting down, the end is at sight; ample time to ease into the unknown; time to comfort the near and dear; time to enjoy the affection of near, dear and the strangers (health care team); luxury to 'shop around' the funeral arrangements!.. There are plenty pain medications are available. Some of the medications are slow acting and some are fast acting. Depending upon the availability of health care availability, one can take their time with tolerable pain.

I know, most members may not agree with my view, but I see it this way only.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

This is an eye-opener for me. "Others" rate the ease of death from their perspective, I am sure, because the dead persons don't talk, as the saying goes. For others, a death in the slow style is really taxing, if the wait is, say, more than a week at the most. Sudden deaths are therefore uniformly prayed for from many decades past and we have slokas like "anaayaasena maranam, vinaa dainyena jeevanam, ..etc."

One more point - what do you think about people who die while asleep?

 

[Yamaka]

Fast Death Vs Slow Cruel Death:

1. In my house in a small rural town in Ramnad Tk in TN, my father (at 88 years) died in a matter of minutes... he asked for water, before he could get it, he was gone! No pain at all in his face!

2. In the same house, one of my uncles (at age 57) died after suffering for 30 days - doctors could not give adequate medicine to subdue his pain - we saw tears always in his red eyes.

3. Dr. Kavorkian (aka Dr. Death) has horrible stories to tell to support Mercy Killing.

I support Dr. Kavorkian (Mercy Killing in a very few cases).

I wish I could die like my father!

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy,

This is an eye-opener for me. "Others" rate the ease of death from their perspective, I am sure, because the dead persons don't talk, as the saying goes. For others, a death in the slow style is really taxing, if the wait is, say, more than a week at the most. Sudden deaths are therefore uniformly prayed for from many decades past and we have slokas like "anaayaasena maranam, vinaa dainyena jeevanam, ..etc."

One more point - what do you think about people who die while asleep?

Sri.Sangom Sir, greetings.

I wish to discuss 'death while asleep' later, please. I wish to gather bit more information before discussing about that, please.

I worked in the Aged care facility for more about 2 1/2 years. I was making decisions about the care; I paid a lot of attention to pain management. When I say taking the time to pass away, I mean, taking couple of years to pass along. The pain would be more severe in the winter time than the summer time. So many strategies are made to manage one's chronic pain (any pain that lasts over 6 months is termed as chronic pain). Pain management is a well researched and well developed with ongoing developments.

Palliative care is a specialised field developed for the care for dying person and supporting such person's near and dear. More about palliative care can be read from here. The whole care system is developed to maintain the person's comfort and dignity. Provision of comfort is hard to explain by writing few words; it is something the nurses, doctors and other heath care providers do with passion. Children can spend time with their elders at conveenient times by taking them out for dinner/lunch etc. By pre arrangement, enough pain relief would be on board, so that the ailing person would not suffer any pain, enjoy the outing; the youngsters need not share any discomfort either.

Towards the end of the life situation, pain relief would be provided by much stronger medications like morphine and few other drugs. (Morphine is not my drug of choice). So, when we have so much innovations, sudden deaths need not be wished.

Let me give an example of pain management from a birth situation... Cesarian section surgery is conducted when the mother is conscious and talking. Blocks are made at the spine to block the transmission of pain from the hip down... At the end of the surgery, the medication is reversed and the sensation comes back! In the similar fashion, many pain relief are available to ease chronic and neuropathic pains.

( If someone wonders if I have experienced pain, the answer is yes. When I was young, I had fractures in both my fore arms which were set at Puththur without aneasthetics. Recently in late 2009, in my spine, L3, L4 and L5 inflammed and swolled touching the nerve endings at the back; I lost consciousness due to the excruciating pain).

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

raghy,

re your post #23. and beyond.

health care is a field that is seldom discussed here. not for want of interest, i hope.

your post is an eye opener to us. i have heard of palliative car. recently my beloved boss died of cancer and was in palliative care for the last month of his life.

truly a great and noble profession. we also have renuka here, another member in the healthcare field.

would you find there is enough material to open a thread, with your experiences, and also queries that these might generate.

for example your this article on pain is extraordinary.

thank you..

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Kunjuppu, Greetings.

would you find there is enough material to open a thread, with your experiences, and also queries that these might generate.

I like this suggestion. We may discuss heathcare for in general, for seniors, in particular. I notice, in India, the lack of attention to health care and healthy diet. In a couple of days, we may discuss such informations, please.

Cheers!