Why do Brahmins convert?

[biswa]

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Of late we have seen a number of cases where Brahmins have converted to other religions. Why is this the case? Does it mean that these people don't really understand Hinduism and can't look beyond the rituals and social issues?

 

[prasad1]

People convert from one religion, as they do not understand their religion, or the other people in their religion have not responded to them.
Generally conversion is for financial consideration (except for forcible conversion). People do not really care for their old or new religion.

For a Hindu to convert to any other religion is totally meaningless. It is like converting from Human to xxxxxxx.

 

[biswa]

Yes it may make sense for sc/st or others who have been subjected to exploitation. It is more surprising for Brahmins who should be more knowledgeable about Hinduism and its inner meaning. Surprising if people get swayed by love/list or money.

 

[renuka]

But what is even more surprising is..only religion changes but the caste tag remains.

Cos I have met Christians who claim that they are originally Brahmins that converted and also some Muslims who claim to be Brahmins that had converted.

I feel in India more than religion or God people are more concerned about Caste.

Otherwise would anyone who has left the Hindu fold still want to call himself a Brahmin Christian or a Brahmin Muslim? Does not make sense right?

BTW when a Brahmin converts it is actually more dangerous than any other caste converting cos other caste especially Dalits are just looking for some self respect but a Brahmin has already been primed with Hinduism and its in and out of it and such a convert can actually be more dangerous cos he/she could start twisting and turning facts and be the most dangerous sort of Preacher of his/her new found religion.

 

[zebra16]

Of late we have seen a number of cases where Brahmins have converted to other religions. Why is this the case? Does it mean that these people don't really understand Hinduism and can't look beyond the rituals and social issues?

There are many many reasons from the simplest one to the most complicated one. Here are the five simple-most reasons that come to my mind without any stress.

1. The practice of brahmin rituals, even the very diluted ones that many follow today, is time consuming with no return for labour in sight. The simple sandhya vandanam, laghu pooja, sahasranamam recitation in the morning and evening sandhya and stotra recitation would take 2 hours in total everyday. The fruits of labour are not visible except for the tag of "brahmin". I know at least a couple of cases of prospective IIT/IIM aspirants (who were studious and focussed, diligent and hard working but not necessarily brilliant) missed their cherished career and remained lower middle class because they couldnt devote so much time for preparation but had to allocate the time between preparations and nitya-anusaram and special anusaram like rudra ekadashi, pradosham pooja, ashtami-navami devi parayanam etc.

2. It is very evident to the present day brahmins that they closed the door on themselves to being a participant in newshine and prospective profession and industry like medicine, leather industry, hospitality industry, entertainment industry and many others.

3. It is very hard for me (as also many many others) to reconcile that I am giving arghyam to suryan to protect him from the two chasing asuras and then also explain to my kid just 15 minutes after sandhya-vandanam that sun neither rises nor sets. I would be a fool to try to explain utterly contradicting things to my impressionable kid that both the things are true!! This makes me wonder how they teach mutually contradictory things like the above in religion sponsored institutions like Sankara maTam schools for example where they teach vedas very early in the morning and science in the afternoons.

4. Self imposed lack of mobility cut off career growth path drastically. I have a friend who is in Mayavaram, who is an aeronautical engineer, who chose to stay put there in deference to the wishes of his grand father. His grand father passed away 4-5 years ago but by then my friend had crossed 40 years of age and his remaining life is being spent in regretting the missed chances. When would Mayavaram have an industry that would require the services of an aeronautical engineer?

5. I seriously doubt any brahmin of the present day would truthfully subscribe to the concept of "Bhavati Bhikshaam Dehi" as the present day life severely looks down upon alm-seeking as a means of sustenance. So right from the upanayanam the brahmin has learnt to lead a life which is going to be different from what he has learnt or is going to learn from the scriptures.​

 

[prasad1]

So right from the upanayanam the brahmin has learnt to lead a life which is going to be different from what he has learnt or is going to learn from the scriptures.

A very hard hitting but true piece. Well done Zebraji

 

[Vaagmi]

post #5:

There are many many reasons from the simplest one to the most complicated one. Here are the five simple-most reasons that come to my mind without any stress.

May be the mind is a warped one steeped in ignorance. Let us see point by point what kind of twist ithas given to facts:

1. The practice of brahmin rituals, even the very diluted ones that many follow today, is time consuming with no return for labour in sight. The simple sandhya vandanam, laghu pooja, sahasranamam recitation in the morning and evening sandhya and stotra recitation would take 2 hours in total everyday. The fruits of labour are not visible except for the tag of "brahmin". I know at least a couple of cases of prospective IIT/IIM aspirants (who were studious and focussed, diligent and hard working but not necessarily brilliant) missed their cherished career and remained lower middle class because they couldnt devote so much time for preparation but had to allocate the time between preparations and nitya-anusaram and special anusaram like rudra ekadashi, pradosham pooja, ashtami-navami devi parayanam etc.

Those rituals are done without expecting any return for the labour. They are time consuming just like eating, bathing, watching TV and chatting with friends is time consuming. I do my daily karma regularly without any expectation and so I never felt it is a labour in the first place and then it is a labour without tangible returns in the second place. I do not find it an effort at all. For those who never do any of these karmas regularly waxing eloquent is a pastime perhaps. I do not remember that I am a brahmin at any time for days together until I am reminded of it by someone here in the forum. Doing my daily karma is natural to me and does not make me feel that I am a brahmin because of doing them.

Success is measured for such warped minds only by which class you fall in-a middle class, a high (rich/wealthy)class or a poor class. And all those in the poor class are all miserable failures and those in the rich class are all brilliant by corollary. So it goes on to say if you do not clear the IIT/IIM you are condemned to be in the poor class/middle class (and who said middle class such a bad class?) and you can directly relate it to your nitya karmas. Those 2 hours you spent in nitya karma, if devoted to study (in addition to the 22 hrs in a day) could have got you to clear IIT/IIM and become super-rich and brilliant. LOL. What a simplistic logic!!

2. It is very evident to the present day brahmins that they closed the door on themselves to being a participant in newshine and prospective profession and industry like medicine, leather industry, hospitality industry, entertainment industry and many others.

It is not such a self evident fact as made out. Requires elaboration. I know many brahmins who are shining in all these named fields. And the words "many others" shows that brahmins stand condemned even if they have a presence in every imaginable industry

3. It is very hard for me (as also many many others) to reconcile that I am giving arghyam to suryan to protect him from the two chasing asuras and then also explain to my kid just 15 minutes after sandhya-vandanam that sun neither rises nor sets. I would be a fool to try to explain utterly contradicting things to my impressionable kid that both the things are true!! This makes me wonder how they teach mutually contradictory things like the above in religion sponsored institutions like Sankara maTam schools for example where they teach vedas very early in the morning and science in the afternoons.

You have picked on a story to mock the religious practice. May be if you had looked for more reading material you would have got a balanced view of the ritual. So you have only yourself to blame. If you want please let me know I can send you a sandhyavandana bhashyam which may help you. But I am not sure whether with the kind of extreme bias you have exhibited whether it would really of help to you.

Don't you think that the story is to make things interesting for the kids? For your kid the galaxies and several suns in these galaxies etc may be ideas difficult to grab and retain until he grows older. But he will remember the story to do his sandhi every day. That is the purpose of the story. The purpose is not to teach him Kepler's astronomy in detail.

4. Self imposed lack of mobility cut off career growth path drastically. I have a friend who is in Mayavaram, who is an aeronautical engineer, who chose to stay put there in deference to the wishes of his grand father. His grand father passed away 4-5 years ago but by then my friend had crossed 40 years of age and his remaining life is being spent in regretting the missed chances. When would Mayavaram have an industry that would require the services of an aeronautical engineer?

If it was well thought out deliberate choice there is nothing to analyse there. Every one takes such deliberate decisions-big or small- and suffer or gain by that.

5. I seriously doubt any brahmin of the present day would truthfully subscribe to the concept of "Bhavati Bhikshaam Dehi" as the present day life severely looks down upon alm-seeking as a means of sustenance. So right from the upanayanam the brahmin has learnt to lead a life which is going to be different from what he has learnt or is going to learn from the scriptures.

"Bhavati bikshaan dehi" brings humility. Period.

Now the most important part of this post: why do brahmins convert?

My view:

1. They know nothing about hinduism and know something about their chosen religion which is attractive and so they convert.

2. They get money for converting.

3. They are madly in love with someone and that someone belongs to the other religion. So they convert. Passion has taken over control.

4. They have "anyarethas" flowing through their genes and venes.

5. They are plain stupid.

One or more reasons can result in conversion. LOL.

 

[tks]

I personally do not know anyone who converted except an old college friend (a Bengali) who became Christian many years after marrying an American woman.

I am not so sure why it is surprising that someone with a Brahmin tag is converting to another religion. Those are as confused an any other person who goes for conversion.

Anyone who is confused or lacks a sense of direction will convert upon pressure by someone. The person putting that pressure could be a professional converter often found in the aggressive religions or it could be a close person like a spouse or a close friend.

I have close friends who are very religious - Christians (born again and catholic), Muslims (mostly Sunni), Jews, and others from Hindu umbrella. Regardless of their beliefs I have great respect for all of them because they are people of conviction and do their own Nithya Karmas as prescribed in their tradition. Even the friends who tried to 'convert me' did so out of affection because they do not want me destined to hell LoL

Many Indians are generally a confused lot and have strong opinions about their confused state. So it is not surprising that some end up getting more peace by conversion regardless of what tag they may carry about their identity.

I tend to mostly agree with the overall views expressed by Sri Vaagmi in the last post (and hence will not repeat them) though I have no particular comments regarding Sri Narayan's post (Zebra) in that context

 

[renuka]

Well looks like it no one actually answered Biswa's post!LOL

 

[zebra16]

post #5:



May be the mind is a warped one steeped in ignorance. Let us see point by point what kind of twist ithas given to facts:

The brahmin baiters and vithanDa-vAdhis arent posting in this forum these days. So you can cut out the rhetoric and talk substance.

Those rituals are done without expecting any return for the labour. They are time consuming just like eating, bathing, watching TV and chatting with friends is time consuming. I do my daily karma regularly without any expectation and so I never felt it is a labour in the first place and then it is a labour without tangible returns in the second place. I do not find it an effort at all. For those who never do any of these karmas regularly waxing eloquent is a pastime perhaps. I do not remember that I am a brahmin at any time for days together until I am reminded of it by someone here in the forum. Doing my daily karma is natural to me and does not make me feel that I am a brahmin because of doing them.

Please do not crack jokes. At least try to know the meaning of the mantrams/strotrams before you start to post rebuttals here. Just a few examples:

a) Even the simple mahAlakxhmi ashtam which can be recited in less than 2 minutes flat has the following phala-shruti. "Eka kAle PateH nityam mahA pApa vinAshanam, trikAlayf pateH nityam mahA Satru vinASanam" etc.

b) All the sahasranAmams have a pUrva-BhAgam and uttara BhAgam and phala-Sruthi is a part of uttara Bhagam. When you find find time try to know the meaning of the phala-Sruthi in Sri Vishnu Sahasra nAmam.

c) Please try understanding the meaning of the sandhya-vandana mantrams like "sUryascha mAmanyuscha' "agnishcha mAmanyuscha" 'paSyema Saradha-Satam, jeevema Sarata-Satam etc. and 'namah savitre etc."

These are just indicators. Even Srimad BhAgavatam was recited to Parikshit in the seven days period he was to be alive on this earth after being bitten by the snake Takshaka to pave way for Parikshit to go to Sri Vaikuntam.

Success is measured for such warped minds only by which class you fall in-a middle class, a high (rich/wealthy)class or a poor class. And all those in the poor class are all miserable failures and those in the rich class are all brilliant by corollary. So it goes on to say if you do not clear the IIT/IIM you are condemned to be in the poor class/middle class (and who said middle class such a bad class?) and you can directly relate it to your nitya karmas. Those 2 hours you spent in nitya karma, if devoted to study (in addition to the 22 hrs in a day) could have got you to clear IIT/IIM and become super-rich and brilliant. LOL. What a simplistic logic!!

Please get REAL. One of the present day classifications of the society is rich class, middle class and poor class. All the government policies which affect us are framed by the government keeping these CLASS segretations (both subtle and gross) in mind. Surely you have heard about BPL (below poverty line) and APL (above poverty line). Poverty is the greatest divider of the society and every section of society including brahmins has to strive to rise above the BPL.

You yourselves have added that money paid for conversion is one of the reasons for religious conversion but you do not want to go further to see that the poverty is the reason for poor people getting lured by money.

It is not such a self evident fact as made out. Requires elaboration. I know many brahmins who are shining in all these named fields. And the words "many others" shows that brahmins stand condemned even if they have a presence in every imaginable industry

.

Unnecessary digression. Non sequiter.

You have picked on a story to mock the religious practice. May be if you had looked for more reading material you would have got a balanced view of the ritual. So you have only yourself to blame. If you want please let me know I can send you a sandhyavandana bhashyam which may help you. But I am not sure whether with the kind of extreme bias you have exhibited whether it would really of help to you.

Better read the sandhya-vandana bhAshyam yourselves before gifting or loaning the books to others.

Don't you think that the story is to make things interesting for the kids? For your kid the galaxies and several suns in these galaxies etc may be ideas difficult to grab and retain until he grows older. But he will remember the story to do his sandhi every day. That is the purpose of the story. The purpose is not to teach him Kepler's astronomy in detail.

You make me laugh. The story is not contained in the chanda mama or amar chitra katha, it is contained in the religious scriptures

If it was well thought out deliberate choice there is nothing to analyse there. Every one takes such deliberate decisions-big or small- and suffer or gain by that.

It is very very relevant. The kids in Karnal, Haryana can be brilliant like Kalpana Chawla, but presently they have to to to NASA for their space mission dreams to be fulfilled. So provide them the opportunities here or allow them to go where NASA is located and do not bring the rhetorical tales of sins accruing due to crossing of the ocean etc.

"Bhavati bikshaan dehi" brings humility. Period.

You mean one instance of "Bhavathi BhikshAm dehi" has brought about humility for the whole life? Why not Bhavathi BhikshAm dehi whenever we do the upakarma or Avani-aviTTam every year?

Sure you know how the supposedly humble monk was humbled by a humble home maker with a simple and humble question of 'KOKKU ENDRU NINAITHAIYO KONKANAVA'

 

[Vaagmi]

post #10:

I will answer your post later. But the following passage is of immediate interest to me.

Sure you know how the supposedly humble monk was humbled by a humble home maker with a simple and humble question of 'KOKKU ENDRU NINAITHAIYO KONKANAVA'

I understand who is the humble homemaker ( you ) and the humbled humble monk cum konkanavan (me) here. But who is the Kokku ? If you can boldly make it public so that the Kokku also gives you a bit of its mind that will make the thread interesting and democratic. Hope you will oblige. I will certainly answer your points later even though you have patted yourself already for having humbled the humble monk aka konkanavan. I am waiting with bated breath. LOL.

 

[biswa]

Back to the original question. Brahmins are the priestly class of Hinduism, so should be holding up the religion and evangelizing to other Hindus. The issue would be roughly analogous to a Catholic priest or a Muslim maulvi suddenly leaving the church or the mosque and start going to temples. Why does that not happen frequently? Dont they desire money or fall in love/passion etc.?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Back to the original question. Brahmins are the priestly class of Hinduism, so should be holding up the religion and evangelizing to other Hindus. The issue would be roughly analogous to a Catholic priest or a Muslim maulvi suddenly leaving the church or the mosque and start going to temples. Why does that not happen frequently? Dont they desire money or fall in love/passion etc.?

I do not think brahmins convert in large numbers. But to answer Biswaji's post: May be a catholic priest does not convert because he is already well to do. And a Muslim maulvi cannot convert. That is punishable by death.

 

[tks]

Back to the original question. Brahmins are the priestly class of Hinduism, so should be holding up the religion and evangelizing to other Hindus. The issue would be roughly analogous to a Catholic priest or a Muslim maulvi suddenly leaving the church or the mosque and start going to temples. Why does that not happen frequently? Dont they desire money or fall in love/passion etc.?

Biswaji -

1.There are really no priestly classes ; the formal education that some priests get at Veda Patashalas only teaches them to memorize with minimal understanding.

2. We do not have the concept of evangelizing anything.

3. There is no religion called Hinduism except it is a name given by outsiders that we keep for lack of better description. People following a specific tradition like Vaishnavism, Saivism , Iyappa worship, Sai Baba worship continue and those who have convictions do not convert.

4. A Muslim and Catholics will not even waste time trying to convert each other. Both are aggressive religions with mandate to convert others built within their theology. They do not care about the means provided the end is assured. So these people are not going to spend their effort on each other but on unsuspecting Hindus that are either poor or self-intellectualized & ignorant Hindus

5. Ignorance is not limited to any caste, creed, skin color, national origin etc

So the question overall as to why any person regardless of their birth assumed caste convert will only make sense.

 

[sarang]

This narrow definition is repeatedly circulated to confuse the occupation of brahmins. Priesthood is one of the occupation of brahmins. Even manusmruti says that the king must employ brahmins as his ministers and advisers, as they can and will tell him what is right and is dharmic. All throught the ages, brahmins have been kings, ministers, teachers for all disciplines, doctors, technogy consultants. Rajaraja chola and his son rajendra chola had brahmin ministers. In fact brahmins did all loukika professions, in the past and now too - lawyers, accountants, engineers, doctors and modern emerging professions. Even before the british gained ascendance, there were village schools where all varnas learnt together, brahmins forming a small proportion.

With the advent of modern education system with institutions and colleges run by missionaries, many brahmins converted under the influence of their father-teachers, who were good role models. In tiruchy, there was even a vincent iyer colony, with many converted family of tambrams. Access to education, scholarships, jobs were incentives, but the main influence was belief in the new religion. After conversion the tambram community generally ignored them, with minimum social contacts.

Back to the original question. Brahmins are the priestly class of Hinduism, so should be holding up the religion and evangelizing to other Hindus. The issue would be roughly analogous to a Catholic priest or a Muslim maulvi suddenly leaving the church or the mosque and start going to temples. Why does that not happen frequently? Dont they desire money or fall in love/passion etc.?

 

[Dinesh Venkatachar]

Of late we have seen a number of cases where Brahmins have converted to other religions. Why is this the case? Does it mean that these people don't really understand Hinduism and can't look beyond the rituals and social issues?

There is no actual conversion with our faith, even atheism is accepted in our faith. Let's take the example of all the bhattars that work in Shirdi Sai temples. One could call that conversion if they wish, because the "deity" being worshipped is Shirdi Sai Baba, but at the same time its not really conversion because its just a stone image, that image can be perceived as one's own ishta devatha as they wish. There is no actual conversion, there are just good people and bad people. If one converts to Islam and they join ISIS and harm others, then they are bad people; not all individuals that convert to Islam are sympathetic to ISIS and the like though, so if they want to accept Allah as their savior, the faith is not going to stop them, similarly if they accept Jesus as their savior, because when it comes down to it, it is just a name and possibly just an image, nothing to feel threatened about. Similar reason we can have multiple temples and we shouldn't feel one as a threat to the other. Ultimately good people are good people and bad people (like ISIS) are bad people. One cannot justify the fanatacism of ISIS, so yes, bad people do exist.

 

[balak223]

Brahmins are supposed to be more learned than others in the matter of the religion. And Brahmins have always enjoyed the rites , reading the sacred books chanting verses, doing poojas, meditating and more importantly getting divine blessings all the while. And if a brahmin converts to another religion, He IS NOT a brahmin. Forget about him. He does not deserve Brahminhood. Let him go to hell.

 

[Dinesh Venkatachar]

Brahmins are supposed to be more learned than others in the matter of the religion. And Brahmins have always enjoyed the rites , reading the sacred books chanting verses, doing poojas, meditating and more importantly getting divine blessings all the while. And if a brahmin converts to another religion, He IS NOT a brahmin. Forget about him. He does not deserve Brahminhood. Let him go to hell.

Where do the individuals fall that are born to one parent of one religion and another parent of another religion? There really isn't any conversion but they're just born of two faiths.

 

[biswa]

Mr. Balak,

It so turns out that often the convertees are women (because of marriage). Hence the term love jihad and love crusade.

 

[rishikesan]

#18 Venkachar is absolutely RIGHT let us learn to IGNORE such acts & waste our time They may have reasons, but we would never accept as Correct. It is an insignificant number & don:t give any thought to it .
Rishikesan

 

[krish44]

if one goes thru you tube posts why some brahmins convert , the recurrent reason these converted brahmins give is they could not get answer or relief and support from hindu community/religion for some

problem -education, health, career,family problem they were facing and the religion they changed to gave them that.

our religeous and community leaders are apathetic to their condition and either ignore or put under the carpet the problems they face.

 

[vs_ramki1950]

hi..it may for marrying girls....or for higher education...or for money

 

[auh]

I read with interest the exchanges between Shri Z and Shri V... and I feel that Shri Z is more spot on... Just my observations. No intent to offend anyone here.

There is a distinct disconnect between some of the practices, mentioned in our shasthras, and the reasons thereof and the world as we see it today - through the eyes of science. It is hard to imagine that the Gods who fought with men are no longer here. The very same Gods who battled with the asuras in this, and in the nether world, no longer supported their followers during invasions when Hindus were brutally slaughtered.

But coming to the topic, I do not know of any brahmin converting to C or I, rather most of them become atheistic of agnostic...

So here I speculate: Those brahmins who convert must be doing it for personal gains - spouse belonging to a different religion, monetary considerations or out of ignorance.

 

[rsnrishi]

shreyaan swadharmo vigunah paradharmaat swanushthitaat! swadharme nidhanam shreyah paradharmo bhayaavahah!! (B.Gita 3-35)
Whom shall we call a Brahmin today? Where is he? Referring to the Yaksha-Yudhishtira conversation in Mahabharata, the latter replies that neither by birth nor by education a brahmin is recognized to be one, it is only by discipline that he "is" a brahmin. Thiruvalluvar also takes this as a reference and writes "andanan enbavan aravon". The saddest part in the contemporary world is that neither of the three authorizes a person to be a brahmin!! Let me explain. 1) Birth: GarbhadAna is even forgotten by many. VivAha is done to get a "Dharma"patni (a wife who is virtuous and helps her husband perform his Dharma). Is it the objective of marriage nowadays? We can say "Artha"patni (earns material wealth) or "kAma"patni (fulfills physical desires) is what we wish. The essence of birth, progeny and life is not kept in mind during intercourse. This leads to an unclean birth.
Education: A person who does not observe sandhyAvandana or other nithyakarmas, who does not get educated in Vedas and guides others to observe such life, how can he be a brahmin? Even the Vedas does not authorize such persons to be brahmins. If there is not VedapramAna, then everything else is nullified. We all learn Western education forced by the need of materials wealth, though may be not for us, but atleast for our family and its secure future.
Discipline: In this case, let the avaidika brahmins (who had not learnt the Vedas) out of discussion. Think of the ShAstrigals and Gurukkals. Pardon me! I am referring 'not to all', its just 'only many'. Do they observe the disciplines mentioned accordingly, after having learnt the Vedas. I have seen many of them resorting to all types of physical pleasures; not doing nithyakarmas, but attending all other rituals; seeking large sums of money in the name of dakshana and many more.
When others see such breach of discipline and conduct, where will the respect be for brahmins or to follow his tradition? People do not follow others words (dictations). They only follow their action. If we want this conversion to discontinue and revert back, Brahmins must live and behave as one.
Jaya Jaya Sankara! Hara Hara Sankara!!