Is Lord Shiva Brahmin or Nonbrahmin?

Dear All

This question came to my mind just today!

I have known that Lord Shiva is the God who takes care of death! He is also known to be the God who dwells among graveyards and adorns himself with the ashes!

Then I have the following questions

1. How come he is a brahmin if he dwells in the graveyard? (Is he SC/ST?)

2. How come his sons (adopted or by birth or whatever!) are brahmins? Lord Ganesha and Lord Muruga?

This is a very practical question that I want to ask and in no intention to offend any one! Infact Murugan is/was my favourite God and Kula Deivam!

P.S. I may/maynot be actively answering/participating here, but I would really appreciate answers

Kind regards

valli said:

Dear All

This question came to my mind just today!

I have known that Lord Shiva is the God who takes care of death! He is also known to be the God who dwells among graveyards and adorns himself with the ashes!

Then I have the following questions

1. How come he is a brahmin if he dwells in the graveyard? (Is he SC/ST?)

2. How come his sons (adopted or by birth or whatever!) are brahmins? Lord Ganesha and Lord Muruga?

This is a very practical question that I want to ask and in no intention to offend any one! Infact Murugan is/was my favourite God and Kula Deivam!

P.S. I may/maynot be actively answering/participating here, but I would really appreciate answers

Kind regards

Click to expand...

Siva is a transformation of "Rudra", the rigvedic deity or deva; "devas" belong to a category by themselves and are not covered by the rules governing human beings.

Dear Shri Sangom

I really appreciate your reply! As far as I understand - you have said that Shiva belongs to the category of Devas, right?

Are Devas and Gods equal? If Shiva is a deva then how can he be GOD? Indira is the king of devas, isn't it?

P.S. Shri Sangom, I am a very normal human being! Please tell me is Shiva brahmin or Non brahmin - is he God or no God? How come Ganesh and Murugan are Brahmins?

Very kind regards

valli said:

Dear Shri Sangom

I really appreciate your reply! As far as I understand - you have said that Shiva belongs to the category of Devas, right?

Are Devas and Gods equal? If Shiva is a deva then how can he be GOD? Indira is the king of devas, isn't it?

P.S. Shri Sangom, I am a very normal human being! Please tell me is Shiva brahmin or Non brahmin - is he God or no God? How come Ganesh and Murugan are Brahmins?

Very kind regards

Click to expand...

Hi Valli,

I have a doubt. From where did you get this idea that Shiva, Ganesh and Muruga are all brahmins? You can also tell whether Vishnu and Brahma are brahmins or non-brahmins according to your source. And Lakshmi and Parvathi also-because that will settle another issue as to whether there were intercaste marriages in their world or not. Just a very normal human being's curiosity.

Cheers.

Dear Shri Raju

This is all from being born into a tamil brahmin family. These gods all have 'Poonool' on them, right?

And though Rama, Venkatajalabathi have also the same poonool they are Iyengar gods, right?

And finally finding out that there are nonbrahmin gods like Iyyanaar and Ellaiyamma.

Dear Shri Raju

You have just added on some more things to your original post!

Alright! I shall get myself point blank! According to movie sources and story book sources, Shiva who is a dweller of graveyards is a nonbrahim!

My mom and dad and my extended family never dwelt on this point! According to them Shiva is Brahmin GOD.

I have read Amarchitrakathas which tells about how Parvathi's father did not allow her to attend one important yagam since she married a non brahmin!

Then how come Ganesh and Murugan are brahmins?

P.S. I am not here to argue! I have NOT read vedam or any such! ALL I want to know is - How come Shiva and Ganesh and Murugan are brahmins??? I know they are prayed as brahmin Gods by brahmins as a girl born and brought up in a tamil brahmin family.

valli,

thank you for bringing up some honest queries.

in these days, one cannot discount the role that amar chitra kathas has in familiarizing our epics and folk tales to the next generation. my own children know more about our traditions than moi, thanks to ACK.

your question is very valid, from the point of your upbringing and also from normal progression of thought, starting at ACK.

i think it is only proper for folks to answer the queries if they are able to, and does not behoove right, to question you as to why you are asking these queries or some underhand reasons.

hopefully you will get answers here to satisfy your query. and now it is mine too.

thanks

ps.. my grandparents were into rama, though acknowledged him as a kshatriya. my grandma used to tell me that as tambrams smarthas, we should pray to ravanan, who was a saivite brahmin.

Valli what an interesting and cute question. Even I love ACK and its because of devouring so many ACK that i know more than my parents about our stories, religion and faith just like your kids K mama.

First of let me say that i feel Lord Shiva is beyond caste/creed. If caste can be associated with gunas then sometimes He is Brahmin (satvik) perhaps when he is a meditating ascetic, when he is furious probably a Kshatriya? like Rudra and Bhairava and when hes dancing in the graveyards probably a Chandala? I think its not literal and meant to be read metaphorically.

I always used to think that Vishnu was a sweet goody goody deity and Shiva was like, when hes good hes good , when hes bad hes better kind of thing! thats why Vishnu gets Lakshmi who is sweet and nice while Shiva has to contend with the likes of Kali/Chandi? And as Kunjuppu mama has said Rama is Kshatriya and Krishna i believe was Shudra. But perhaps the message is to be Brahmin is through conduct rather than birth?

Devas/ asuras are not "Gods" per se. More mythology to teach children the rights and wrongs. Perhaps there was as someone mentioned a bit of Aryan superiority in these devas vs asuras. Why else are the poor Lankans asuras and Hanuman was from the south a Vanara, while our Maryada Purushottam prince was a north regal handsome "God" .

Many, many tribal, village NB "gods" are still not incorporated in our Aryan pantheon and so we still have Ayyanar and Yellaiamman.

In Malaysia I have seen some Muniswarar temples where the priest is NB, they cut goat from time to time, offer its blood and worshippers buy "arack" and beedi/chooroot, light it up and offer Muniswarar. That was new to me as I had thought he was Shiva all along. I still cannot relate to offering meat in temples. But thats just me I guess.

What all I've written is purely my opinion on Valli's question.

valli said:

Dear Shri Sangom

I really appreciate your reply! As far as I understand - you have said that Shiva belongs to the category of Devas, right?

Are Devas and Gods equal? If Shiva is a deva then how can he be GOD? Indira is the king of devas, isn't it?

P.S. Shri Sangom, I am a very normal human being! Please tell me is Shiva brahmin or Non brahmin - is he God or no God? How come Ganesh and Murugan are Brahmins?

Very kind regards

Click to expand...

Devas and Gods are not human beings and have no varna or caste, imo and according to the scriptures, but since brahmins were the sole priesthood in hinduism, the fashion of depicting the idols in the temples and pictures as if they were brahmins. But a real brahmin was supposed to sport a "kuDumi" and also a very broad forehead (shaven practically up to the crown; some groups used to keep only the tuft portion and the rest of the hair on the head was shaved off). Do you find these in temple idols (the actual sculpture or after adornment)? You only see the poonal. Hope the matter becomes clear now.

So these are all the practices of the priesthood and the "believers" tend to accept everything without question; and that is the true "lakshana" of a 'viswaasi'. But since you have started expressing doubts, in the eyes of the believers that may not be acceptable.

valli said:

Dear All

This question came to my mind just today!

I have known that Lord Shiva is the God who takes care of death! He is also known to be the God who dwells among graveyards and adorns himself with the ashes!

Then I have the following questions

1. How come he is a brahmin if he dwells in the graveyard? (Is he SC/ST?)

2. How come his sons (adopted or by birth or whatever!) are brahmins? Lord Ganesha and Lord Muruga?

This is a very practical question that I want to ask and in no intention to offend any one! Infact Murugan is/was my favourite God and Kula Deivam!

P.S. I may/maynot be actively answering/participating here, but I would really appreciate answers

Kind regards

Click to expand...

There is no one answer to your question.

If you are a saiva brahmin then Lord Shiva is the ultimate brahmin the brahmin of brahmins. He will be depicted with a sacred thread wherever his image like natraja is installed. In his infinite form he is beyond any caste.

If you are a smartha brahmin then Lord shiva as a saguna is a person with sacred thread a person beyond castes and yet wears a thread. It is said that he appeared with the sacred thread, so he may be considered as not a twice born since he is born with the thread. He is also the formless god.

If you are a saivaite who believes in the casteless creeds of hinduism he is beyond caste and he is not a brahmin to such people. His further qualities depend on the region and the sect. The veerasaivaites believe in a strict vegetarian non drinking saivism. In Tamilnadu the saiva pillais subscribe to this idea as well. In north lord shiva in some regions lord shiva is worshipped with liquor and there are stories of him roaming with bhang.

From a historian perspective he could be a dravidian god turned into the present day concept of shiva. Spme woud think that he is a fusion with rudra. Some vaishnavaites will say he was never rudra but somebody else.

Lord shiva is commonly quoted in books as the destroyer. But to me his shiva linga seems to be an idea representing the creative shiva. In this way one has different ideas of shiva. Probably Lord shiva is all this and more.

Sati's father supposedly hesitates to marry his daughter to Shiva due to what he believed to be unacceptable ways of shiva.

In all modern notions of shiva, there seems to be atleast one aspect to shiva which makes him beyond caste. So that is the consensus which should answer your question.

Hi Valli! You said in #5

This is all from being born into a tamil brahmin family. These gods all have 'Poonool' on them, right?
And though Rama, Venkatajalabathi have also the same poonool they are Iyengar gods, right?
And finally finding out that there are nonbrahmin gods like Iyyanaar and Ellaiyamma.

Click to expand...

1. Poonool is not exclusive to brahmins. Period.
2. ‘Iyengar gods’ is something which I am coming across here for the first time. “Iyengar gods” are ‘Iyer gods’ also and Pillai, Mudaliyar gods also.
3. Aiyanaar and ellaiyamman are worshipped not exclusively by non-brahmins. Brahmins too go to these temples and pray.

And in #6

You have just added on some more things to your original post!

Click to expand...

If it is something lengthy I copy down the matter to a word file and reply leisurely as otherwise I have to contend with the TB.com server timing me out. If it is only a short reply I stay on line and key in the reply and then come back once to edit if there are any thing to be added or corrected. You have viewed immediately after I posted but before I edited my reply.

Alright! I shall get myself point blank! According to movie sources and story book sources, Shiva who is a dweller of graveyards is a nonbrahim!
My mom and dad and my extended family never dwelt on this point! According to them Shiva is Brahmin GOD.
Then how come Ganesh and Murugan are brahmins?

Click to expand...

The believers are clear that God remains a God always even if there is no poonool on him, even if He does not wear a crown, even if He is not adorned with ornaments, even if He is not bathed daily with milk etc., even if He is not garlanded with fragrant flowers, even if no one burns dhoop sticks and camphor before Him. If you ask then why this poonool, garland, Kireetam, ornaments etc etc., the reason is this:

A devotee offers to God whatever is precious, valuable, pleasant etc to himself. This is why the poonool, ornaments, garland etc., A vaishnavite even puts a oorthva pundram (Naamam in tamil) on His forehead because his elders and his most venerable Acharyan bears it.

In SV school of thought, it is an accepted principle that a devotee offers to God whatever is precious, pleasant etc to the devotee himself and when it comes to offering something to an Acharyan he offers whatever is liked, sought etc by the Acharyan or whatever will please the Acharyan. This post has become lengthy already. Yet I would like to quote the Alwar here for the beauty of his expression:

The thalaivi (read jeevatma) who pines for her union with the thalaivan(read paramatma) asks a “Annapparavai” – a Stork-(read Acharyan) to convey her condition to her lord. And in return for the services she offers fresh water fishes to the bird. The learned Acharyas have explained beautifully that offering fresh water fishes to the stork is bringing out this tradition of offering to an Acharyan what will please him. The relevant lines of tamil poetry(Thirunedunthandakam -27-Thirumangai Alwar) is this :

Chengaal mada naaraay! Inre chenru
Thirukkannapuram pukku en chenkan maalukku
En kaathal en thunaivarkku unarththiyaakil
Ithu oppathu emakku inbam illai: naalum
Paingaanam eethu ellaam unathe aakap
Pazhana meen kavarnthu unnaththaruvan: thanthaal
Inge vanthu inithu irunthu un pedaiyum neeyum
Irunilaththil inithu inbam eithalaame.

(I would have given this in Tamil. But my translit SW is erratic. I must find time to do something about it soon!)

In short, poonool, garland and everything that we adorn the idol with is only to satisfy our desire to offer the best to God (what is best varies from individual to individual-for some it may be a poonool, a naamam, a sword, a spear, a garland, a bottle of liquour, the flesh of a goat or chicken, a cigar or whatever you please) and it has nothing to do with the nature of God or his demands. All this do not touch him even peripherally. So God remains God – not a brahmin nor a kshatriya nor a shudra nor a dalit. He is beyond all this. QED.

P.S. I am not here to argue! I have NOT read vedam or any such! ALL I want to know is - How come Shiva and Ganesh and Murugan are brahmins??? I know they are prayed as brahmin Gods by brahmins as a girl born and brought up in a tamil brahmin family.

Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with arguing. It helps to bring out what we want to know. I too am not a learned pundit in vedas. I think your doubt has been at least partially answered. If yes I will be only happy.

Cheers.

Many thanks to everyone who took time to reply!

Kind regards

Dear Shri Raju

So God remains God – not a brahmin nor a kshatriya nor a shudra nor a dalit. He is beyond all this.

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Just wondering loudly, when the creator or superhead the God is beyond all caste categories, how come the people who He created come with all the caste baggages? How nice it would be when a day comes we can say - a Human remains Human - not a brahmin nor a kshatriya nor a shudra nor a dalit. He is beyond all this!! Even though it is the truth that a human remain a human, how many of us have shed the caste baggage?

Poonool is not exclusive to brahmins. Period.

Click to expand...

Even though that's the truth is that how most brahmins think? No.

Iyengar gods’ is something which I am coming across here for the first time. “Iyengar gods” are ‘Iyer gods’ also and Pillai, Mudaliyar gods also

Click to expand...

I know lot of Iyengars who go to temples but would not step into the saiva complex of gods! They go into the vaishnava complex and pray only to the Iyengar Gods!!

Aiyanaar and ellaiyamman are worshipped not exclusively by non-brahmins. Brahmins too go to these temples and pray.

Click to expand...

Yes, on rare occassions brahmins do go to these temples, but you said "pray" - I don't think so! When I was small we had this occassion where my Periappa was invitied to be the honour guest during some funtion in their temple. We all did attend but I can clearly remember the attitude/thinking of the brahmin elders! Maybe there are a few brahmins who are exceptions and do pray to these gods!

Thank you very much for replying Shri Raju!

Kind regards

Dear Kunjuppu

I am still wondering how come Ganesh and Murugan who are the children of Shiva are brahmins gods? The rules which applies to humans do not apply there!!!

Kind regards

Dear Amala

Why else are the poor Lankans asuras

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A few years ago we (my husband and I) came to know from a Srilankan Tamil friend that they don't celebrate Deepavali!!

We know that north Indians celebrate diwali to rejoice the killing of Ravana and to celebrate Rama's victory! As per what the Srilankan friend said - Diwali is a sad day for them - the day when their fellow man was killed! And he was surprised and accused my husband how come Tamilians in India celebrate that day!

My husband had to explain to him that we tamilians have a different reason - it is to celebrate the death of Narakasuran and not Ravanan!

Kind regards

valli said:

Dear Kunjuppu

I am still wondering how come Ganesh and Murugan who are the children of Shiva are brahmins gods? The rules which applies to humans do not apply there!!!

Kind regards

Click to expand...

dear valli,

i was never much into the gods stuff.

to me murugan, always meant palni, my mottai, a very unpleasant experience. on top of that, forced to eat the panchaamrutham, whose very consistency and presentation, i did not quite care for.

that on top of everything, that it was prasaadham, and forced upon wrong-doing if i did not consume it!!

so you are asking the wrong person about brahmin gods.

my own prayers are not a term of reference for bargaining with the Above Person. it is more a sense of comfort. i feel the same safe comfortness when i visit tamil temples. not non tamil temples like in north india, or in toronto, or the hare krishna temples.

our temples, have an ambience, a smell of smoke, the odd person chanting sivapuraanam or thiruppugazh, the murmurs of the priests at the various altars, the children running wild, the groups of women gossipping, young couples with their newborns and above all, youth eyeing youth, and, somewhere sometime the sound of divine naadhaswaram.

not definitely a place of solemn seriousness. but one of humane humanity. at its utmost natural acts presented to us with innocence. no vehemence in our allegiance to our divines. only beseech at the foot of our ultimates. and that too, with melody and love. how can one not get attracted to the sounds, noises, smell and above all the ambience of a tamil temple?

none of the above is brahmin specific, and i am glad to say, that whatever attracts me to our temples, prayers or hinduism, is above and beyond the narrow confines of brahmin rituals.

i gave those up, not out of disgust or anger or unfaith, but more, because to me they were irrelevant. the last act per brahminical ritual was performing the last rites for my parents at kasi, gaya and in a roundabout way, my own, i guess.

so, if i were in your position, i would not worry too much about gods, whether they be brahmin or NB.

what you should think about, is whether you feel like adopting any of them, to be yours. your very personal gods. something to give you succour, comfort and above all, not someone to bargain with, but someone whom you think, is a companion, a well wisher, to accompany you through your life.

definitely not a solver of your problems, for those are yours only, and only you can solve them. or not.

God Bless.

kunjuppu said:

how can one not get attracted to the sounds, noises, smell and above all the ambience of a tamil temple?

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What is meant by tamil temple here?

Temples in the state of TN?

valli said:

suraju06 said:

Aiyanaar and ellaiyamman are worshipped not exclusively by non-brahmins. Brahmins too go to these temples and pray.

Click to expand...

Yes, on rare occassions brahmins do go to these temples, but you said "pray" - I don't think so! When I was small we had this occassion where my Periappa was invitied to be the honour guest during some funtion in their temple. We all did attend but I can clearly remember the attitude/thinking of the brahmin elders! Maybe there are a few brahmins who are exceptions and do pray to these gods!

Click to expand...

Today, most brahmins worship Ayyanar and Ellaiyamman. Those who do not pray are the exceptions.

Dear Vallika,

I live with SL Tamils and they do celebrate Deepavali albeit in a more simple way like fasting instead of pattasu, murrukku, mixture and mithai. Deepavali is followed by Karthigai deepam and lastly the biggest event for many a SL Tamil "Saiva akkal"- Kandashashti Viratham!

As far as i know Ravana and the other Lankan asuras were "arakan" sinhalese not Tamils. SL Tamils at least here never consider Ravana a Tamil. So I'm not sure why your Tamil SL friend says its a sad day for them.

I do agree with you. Many Iyengars don't enter Shaivite temples. It still amazes me and i don't feel they are very different to Muslims and Christians in that regard. I prefer South Indian temples 1st, then SL tamil ones and last north Indian mandirs only because South Indian temples (we have only 2 here in London) I am used to the rituals. SL Tamil seems a bit weird with too much devarams etc and as for mandirs, they don't do "archana" or nei/lime deepams which i must do else i don't feel I've been to the temple!

கால பைரவன்;94608 said:

What is meant by tamil temple here?

Temples in the state of TN?

Click to expand...

well, kapali temple in mylapore, is my benchmark of a perfect temple.

i grew up in its environs, with aruvathimoovar and the chariot festival, every year, being occassions to participate.

here in toronto, we have the ganesa temple, run jointly by tamils/sri lankans, which follows the agama traditions, and comes close to my sense of comfort.

hope this answer satisfies.

Valli,

Am curious. Did your family pass on any oral tradition, like stories, to say that Shiva, Karthikeya and Ganesha were Brahmins? If so, please could you share their reasons / oral traditions here? Is Parvathi also considered brahmin by the same folks?

Thanks.

Dear Valli,
Fundamentally your question raises so many questions like is God like Shiva / Vishnu / Brahma belong to a particular Caste or Varna . Means we have 1000 's of caste and need 1000's of god as each caste needs a god.
You travel to places like Punjab , Haryana and other North Western States, you will find the photograph of the God there will have a long Beard and a Pahadi, means all the God that belong to them are Sardarjee's is it. No way.
Like wise in Places in and around T.N. the gods will have Poonal. Why you see the photos of Ravan , you will find a Poonal means Ravan is a Brahmin is it ? or a Brahmanasuran .
Then the conclusion is Poonal alone is not a symbol of brahmin. You will find even Acharys ( Viswakarma s) in some place our country wears Poonal, they belong to OBC in some states.
In Andra side even Komutti setty's wear Poonal.
One of our friend was quotting the Kudumi as a Symbol for Brahmin.
Even Komutti setty's have this practice of head shave and close look like Kudumi's.
These are external symbol given to God by us or rather people like us.
For Example
Goddess Lakshmi will be sitting on a Elephant or Lotus with lots of Gold coin pouring from her hand.
similarly Sarswathi will always be with playing a Veena and with White Saree , with a great border on the saree.
like wise Parvathy or Durga devi on a lion.
Lord Shiva with Snake on his neck and Ganga on his head and Lord Vishnu laying down on a snake.
It has become a practice and we have accepted these things as our God.
Pl donot mix up these imagination of our ancestors with our caste or community.
This is the practice even in other commuities like a group of christians having photograph of an young man with lots of Beard and with a nice looking eyes.
Some other group of people have a pillar painted in green color and a type of cloth tied on this , it is only the convenient or acceptence by that group.

subbudu1 said:

There is no one answer to your question.

If you are a smartha brahmin then Lord shiva as a saguna is a person with sacred thread a person beyond castes and yet wears a thread. It is said that he appeared with the sacred thread, so he may be considered as not a twice born since he is born with the thread. He is also the formless god.

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Sri Subbudu Sir,

What is the source of this information, if you can, please furnish.

Regards,

narayan

happyhindu said:

Valli,

Am curious. Did your family pass on any oral tradition, like stories, to say that Shiva, Karthikeya and Ganesha were Brahmins? If so, please could you share their reasons / oral traditions here? Is Parvathi also considered brahmin by the same folks?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Dear Happyhindu

That is a good question!

For the past 1 hour I have been trying to find an exact reason why I grew up thinking these gods are brahmins but not able to

But I admit it, this is what I grew up believing -

1.Shiva and his family members are brahmins, Iyers

2. Vishnu is Iyengar

3. Iyaanar, elliyamma etc are Nonbrahmins gods!! (This at a later stage)

There is one incident that I recall when I was studying in high school/Uni. This conversation took place between a NB and a very old, elderly person/relative of mine.

There was talk about kuladeivam and this NB was telling that Murugan was their kuladeivam also, for which this relative said that it cannot be and there must be some local village NB deity as their kuladeivam and urging that person to think properly and recall!

Anyway, let me rest my case (question) with this post!

I thank you and everyone else for replying.

Kind regards

valli said:

Dear Happyhindu

That is a good question!

For the past 1 hour I have been trying to find an exact reason why I grew up thinking these gods are brahmins but not able to

But I admit it, this is what I grew up believing -

1.Shiva and his family members are brahmins, Iyers

2. Vishnu and his avatars are Iyengars

3. Iyaanar, elliyamma etc are Nonbrahmins gods!! (This at a later stage)

There is one incident that I recall when I was studying in high school/Uni. This conversation took place between a NB and a very old, elderly person/relative of mine.

There was talk about kuladeivam and this NB was telling that Murugan was their kuladeivam also, for which this relative said that it cannot be and there must be some local village NB deity as their kuladeivam and urging that person to think properly and recall!

Anyway, let me rest my case (question) with this post!

I thank you and everyone else for replying.

Kind regards

Click to expand...

Dear Valli, Thankyou. Actually, Shiva, Parvathi, Ganesha, Subramanya, Narasimha Swamy, Thiruvenkata Swamy, Rama, Krishna, are non-vedic Gods and are not mentioned in the Vedas (Shruti). These Gods IMO were actually deities of tribes before the vedic period (Varna is a later creation). So many present-day "castes" can claim them as their kula deivam.