Is Lord Shiva Brahmin or Nonbrahmin?

[Govinda]

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Such breathtaking confidence, only the religious can muster such certainty with absolutely no evidence.

Such breathtaking confidence, can also be muttered by those sincere inquirers and analyzers of both science and spirituality

will continue....

 

[kswamymurali]

Dear Fellow Member

The questions which you have in your mind will be cleared when you study Bhagavad Gita with devotion.

The God is not belong to any four Varnas as per Vedas.

 

[sangom]

Such breathtaking confidence, can also be muttered by those sincere inquirers and analyzers of both science and spirituality

will continue....

I agree, "muttered"!

 

[renuka]

Today I had time to look at this thread.
Arent we humanizing God?Why give Him "attributes" by labeling Him Brahmin and Non Brahmin.

We shouldnt forget:

brahmānandaṃ paramasukhadaṃ kevalaṃ jñānamūrtiṃ
dvandvātītaṃ gaganasadṛiśhaṃ tattvamasyādilakṣhyam ।
ekaṃ nityaṃ vimalamachalaṃ sarvadhīsākṣhibhūtaṃ
bhāvātītaṃ triguṇarahitaṃ sadguruṃ taṃ namāmi ॥

 

[ramjays2000]

Before explaining my views, let us know who is god; to me
God is the indescribable, uncreated, self existent, eternal all knowing source of all reality and being. It is a supreme power which is beyond our comprehension. He can be a Brahmin or non Brahmin or what ever He wants Him to be. The classification was our creation to identify the territory each group has to conduct itself to have orderliness in the society.God has not created caste but has created only Human beings. V pray Him for His supremacy over us and not because v classify him as a Brahmin or chatrya etc. In the earlier days every body irrespective of their caste was having Kudumi. Even today if u go to some villages in tamilnadu, there r people with Kudumi even among non brahmins. V all know what all r happening in India out of caste considerations.Let us not take this to Gods also.

 

[happyhindu]

Long Long Ago, there was no hinduism, no jainism, no buddhism, no 'religion' of any sort.

What existed was a tribal society in which clans spread out taking with them their totemic dieties (possibly as identities).

The concept of totemic deities (kula deivams) is not unique to the indian sub-continent. In middle-east and europe too, tribal socities were supposedly divided into clans. There are several papers on clan goddess of ancient europeans.

Everyone who professes the same kula-deivam could be descendents of the same clan, irrespective of their current occupation.

There are some papers which suggest that clan mothers came to be regarded as Godesses (kula-devi). There may some truth in the claim that those who have kula-devis (female deity) instead of kula-deivam (male deity) were matrilineal in an ancient past (which is possibly why jews were / are matrilineal).

Who is God? I don't know.

Does God have a gender? I don't know.

Do i Pray? Yes i do.

Do i expect God to listen to my prayers? Sometimes i expect, sometimes i don't.

Both atheism and theism offer convincing answers.

I can think like an atheist. I find it difficult to become one.

Shiva, Narayana, Krishna, Devi, have all existed before the vedic period. There can be no question of assigning varna to them. If you love them, just worship. Don't think of varna, theism, atheism, or anything else.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Downcast(e)

Is Shiva a Brahmin, or a non-Brahmin. What if he is. To enroll him into “TamilBrahmins.com”. Then are you ready to wear a live snake as poonal. If he is not, would we want to propose him to be the next CM of TN. Maybe some members want to swell the numbers of the community. In spite of numerous discussions, confusion prevails as to what is or who is a Brahmin. As for tambrams, it is just a social tag without which there is a possibility of your being extradited as persona non-grata. Other than that you are a zero stopping short of being called as a human.
“Anantham, Agyanam, Avarnaneeyam”. That is god. He has no form, colour or creed. Probably Shiva, Narayan, Krishna, Muruga, etc. would have been an ‘Anna Hazare’ or Kushboo or Rajnikanth at their time. Or could have been good philosophers or warriors at their time. He is an entity and non-entity at the same time. God himself is Brahman and Brahman is god. :wave:

 

[biswa]

But Qualitatively, both for the Lord and for us, We are definitely significant and higher intellectuals than ants, so the demarcation among us, in the name of Spirituality or Good-Qualities should make sense. The Varna is a label to remind us of our adherence to qualities and its practice and a marker for improvement, there is nothing to be proud or ashamed off. Only when we started to attach Status to the Varna, as in the recent past, we tripped off badly.

Sorry sir I broadly disagree. Clearly you are a broad-minded person, and so have disassociated "varna" and "status". That is a good beginning. If you specify varna as just an occupational label, then I am with you. However if you assign it by hereditary lineage, then there are problems.

To me Jayalalitha and Karunanidhi as well as M Singh and LK Advani belong to the same caste: that of politicians. Perhaps their children will be politicians, or perhaps not, but we do not need to decide that at birth. Similarly, CV Raman and Abdul Kalaam, belong to the scientist varna as do Shankar Mahadevan and AR Rahman to the tribe of musicians. What tribal/religious/caste label may have been assigned by a 5000 yr old system, doesn't seem to be particularly relevant right now.

 

[prasad1]

Fascinating question.
Was Rama a Shivate? He definitely was not a Vaisnavite as Vaisnvaism was not formed in his time. Should a Brahmin worship a Kshatriya?

I guess the answer lies in the Advita philosophy. The question asked in a previous post by Ramjays2000, is to the point, what is GOD?
We have to find our GOD.

 

[sangom]

चिताभस्मालॆपॊ गरळं अशनं दिक्पटधरो
जटाधारी कण्ठॆभुजगपतिहारी पशुपतिः ।
कपाली भूतॆशॊ भजति जगदीशैकपदवीम्
भवानि त्वत्पाणिग्रहणपरिपाटी फलं इदम् ॥ (७)

சிதாபஸ்மாலேபொ கரளம் அசநம் திக்படதரோ
ஜடாதாரீ கண்டேபுஜகபதிஹாரீ பசுபதிஃ |
கபாலீ பூதேசோ பஜதி ஜகதீசைகபதவீம்
பவாநி த்வத்பாணிக்ரஹணபரிபாடீ பலம் இதம் || (௭)

paśupati, whose body is smeared with the ash from the cremation spots, who eats poison, and is naked (has nothing to wear), grows a jaṭā on his neck and the king of snakes around his shoulders, carries a skull (to beg for alms), is the leader of the bhūtas, adorns the seat of jagadīśa (lord of the worlds)! How? bhavāni, it is the result of his having secured your hand (married you).

The above sloka is from the Devyaparaadha kshamaapana stotra. The "Lakshanas" given of Siva may make him a chaNDALa or even worse (if there is a tier still lower). I think, therefore, let us agree that a section of the Brahmins (Tabras) consider a chaNDALa as GOD and so their egalitarian view of divinity in anything and anyone stands more than proved; can we conclude this discussion on this note?

 

[prasad1]

I beg to differ. In this age of information we can not we should no practice Censorship as long as it is nor hurtful.

We are all seekers of information. With our limited knowledge we are trying to visualize the Supreme.

There area lot of useless information, but we might find the gem.

 

[renuka]

चिताभस्मालॆपॊ गरळं अशनं दिक्पटधरो
जटाधारी कण्ठॆभुजगपतिहारी पशुपतिः ।
कपाली भूतॆशॊ भजति जगदीशैकपदवीम्
भवानि त्वत्पाणिग्रहणपरिपाटी फलं इदम् ॥ (७)

சிதாபஸ்மாலேபொ கரளம் அசநம் திக்படதரோ
ஜடாதாரீ கண்டேபுஜகபதிஹாரீ பசுபதிஃ |
கபாலீ பூதேசோ பஜதி ஜகதீசைகபதவீம்
பவாநி த்வத்பாணிக்ரஹணபரிபாடீ பலம் இதம் || (௭)

paśupati, whose body is smeared with the ash from the cremation spots, who eats poison, and is naked (has nothing to wear), grows a jaṭā on his neck and the king of snakes around his shoulders, carries a skull (to beg for alms), is the leader of the bhūtas, adorns the seat of jagadīśa (lord of the worlds)! How? bhavāni, it is the result of his having secured your hand (married you).

The above sloka is from the Devyaparaadha kshamaapana stotra. The "Lakshanas" given of Siva may make him a chaNDALa or even worse (if there is a tier still lower). I think, therefore, let us agree that a section of the Brahmins (Tabras) consider a chaNDALa as GOD and so their egalitarian view of divinity in anything and anyone stands more than proved; can we conclude this discussion on this note?

Oh Lord Of Beings(Pashupathi Natha),whose body smeared with Ash(ash denotes going back to 5 elements.. Consuming Poison (Hala haradhara Shambo saved the world by this act).
Naked as in Digambara(directions as His garment denoting that He is in all directions)
Also sometimes called clad in Tigers skin and smeared with Ash. (Vyagraambaradhara Vibuthi Sundara)

Grows a Jata (Jata signifies indifference to the material world).Snakes signifies Kundalini(Vasuki Kantha Bhooshanam)

Carries a skull(denoting has the Death in His control/hands Mrtunjaya).Begs for alms(to take away the Paapam of us humans..Maha Paapa haram Devam 'ma' karaya Namo Namah)

Leader of Bhutas(signifying leader of beings of any classification Bhuthesha can also mean Lord of the 5 elements)

When Prakriti(Bhavani is in reference to consort of Bhava(existence) aspect of Shiva) is united with Purusha(Shiva) the Divine Union occupies the Supreme Position/Seat.(Paratparam) hence Jagadeesha.

 

[Govinda]

What existed was a tribal society in which clans spread out taking with them their totemic dieties (possibly as identities).

From Purusha/Brahman, originated Brahma, from whose mind were born 12 rudras (shiva, the best) , 10 prajApatis [Brahmin sapta rishis in every manvantra/ universal cycle]. In that case, all were Brahmins [in the nature of being purely Spiritual/powerful and conscious of Brahman]. From the Sapta Rishis, were the different varnas/species of humans born. [Reference Rig Veda, Vishnu Purana]

So, all the deities were revealed through yagnAs to different rishis who sought after them rigorously, and were obtained the revelations of Rig Veda as various Suktams/hyms that detail the (nature/upAsanA/blessings) of gods.

Prajapatis/Sapta Rishis must have had the foremost knowledge that Brahman is the cause of creation. There was nothing like ishta-dEvata or anything, there were individual seekings/meditation at the beginning. A rishi could have composed hymns on many deities too and were imparted to the disciples. Overtime, they had known works from the lineage or closest proximity and each gotra became pre-dominatly associated with one veda, as studying them took longer time [like 20 years].

Our imagination may run wild, saying the gods were picked up over different periods or choices. But false, people split up over time, but carried with them the knowledge of the rishis' clan. Those ancient rishis might have spread across egypt to far east asia, which can be guessed from Dasaratha's details in Ramayana. Over time, as rulers/ change, they settled down in the ganges, seeking more fertile climate and those ancient groups that were left out came back to India in search of both wisdom and wealth. By then, our neighbouring tribes had different cultures, and would have come up with various interpretations of our vedic knowledge, like Aghoris, scary deities, taking up painful physical methods of worship (piercing/bali etc), wild tantra which were not vedic, but the tribes and their idea were absorbed in our pantheon in the name of Shiva. So, I would conclude, worshipping Shiva in the way of simple meditation rather than scary ways would still make him and us a Vaidika/Brahmin.

 

[amala]

Sorry sir I broadly disagree. Clearly you are a broad-minded person, and so have disassociated "varna" and "status". That is a good beginning. If you specify varna as just an occupational label, then I am with you. However if you assign it by hereditary lineage, then there are problems.

To me Jayalalitha and Karunanidhi as well as M Singh and LK Advani belong to the same caste: that of politicians. Perhaps their children will be politicians, or perhaps not, but we do not need to decide that at birth. Similarly, CV Raman and Abdul Kalaam, belong to the scientist varna as do Shankar Mahadevan and AR Rahman to the tribe of musicians. What tribal/religious/caste label may have been assigned by a 5000 yr old system, doesn't seem to be particularly relevant right now.

I dont get this. How is varna just an occupational label but not through heredity lineage? It still is through hereditary lineage the last time i checked. For example I'm Brahmin. I am not a priest, but I'm still "considered" a Brahmin. Now I admit I mayn't be a very good Brahmin but I still am one, like it or not.

Also about relevancy it is very relevant to lots and lots of people. It may not be relevant for us (where we live) but it still is for plenty of others in various ways. Please note the irony of saying caste is not particularly relevant while posting in a caste-based forum

 

[Raji Ram]

............Also about relevancy it is very relevant to lots and lots of people. It may not be relevant for us (where we live) but it still is for plenty of others in various ways. Please note the irony of saying caste is not particularly relevant while posting in a caste-based forum

Do you think this is a caste based forum, though it appears by its name?

 

[amala]

The name clearly is.

 

[Raji Ram]

Only the name, Amala! You know very well that there are star writers in this forum, who are not brahmins! :thumb:

 

[Nara]

... For example I'm Brahmin.

Didn't you know Amala, per Brahminism, you have no varna until you are born again, i.e. get married. Then, if you follow Brahminism strictly, you will have no separate identity and no varna independent of your கண் கண்ட தெய்வம் ....

Cheers!

 

[Raji Ram]

..........you will have no separate identity and no varna independent of your கண் கண்ட தெய்வம் ....

அவசரத்தில், 'கண்ட கண்ட தெய்வம்' என்று படித்தேன்! ound:

 

[amala]

அவசரத்தில், 'கண்ட கண்ட தெய்வம்' என்று படித்தேன்! ound:

me too!! And i was thinking yes i know Nara mama is an atheist but surely he didn't have to call my தெய்வம் as கண்ட கண்ட!!

 

[amala]

Didn't you know Amala, per Brahminism, you have no varna until you are born again, i.e. get married. Then, if you follow Brahminism strictly, you will have no separate identity and no varna independent of your கண் கண்ட தெய்வம் ....

Cheers!

But no one follows Brahminism strictly which is why I'm still considered a Brahmin by people

 

[nachi naga]

For monistic theists, the world of maya is Siva's perfect creation, containing each thing and its opposite. For pluralistic theists, the world is tarnished with evil; thus maya could not be the creation of a perfect God. Aum.-


Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami's trilogy: Dancing with Siva, Living with Siva and Merging with Siva.

 

[nachi naga]

But no one follows Brahminism strictly which is why I'm still considered a Brahmin by people

i think i consider myself a tamil brahmin not the majority tamil brahmin population globally

 

[biswa]

Please note the irony of saying caste is not particularly relevant while posting in a caste-based forum

This is a rather shallow comment, I must say. The attractiveness of this forum goes beyond a certain caste, though it certainly may have been seeded that way. The many things you have said and I have said and others have said would not have been appropriate if the forum was just about traditional TBs. Perhaps you need to start a http://stricttamilbrahmins.com

 

[nachi naga]

Please note the irony of saying caste is not particularly relevant while posting in a caste-based forum

very keen observant,bravo amala.