A Case for Tamil Archanai தமிழில் அர்ச்சனை செய்வது தவறா ?

[s007bala]

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re

S S

>>Whatever traditions a particular temple has been following - the same should be continued. If at all, the gurus of our community should establish common practices based on the agamams... <<

Gurus of our tamil brahmin community are the final authority to decide,i agree with this sentiment.Politicians should mind their biz of administering the welfare of local people.Kazhagams constant brainwashing,that Tamizh is as old as Samskritam is a joke.Then why Thirukkural is not made the 'holy scripture' of tamizhs?This is the,'essence' of tamizh litreature of holy gods.Even though,the promotion to Murugan aka Karthikeya in North India,is prevalent widely-but tamizhs are Lord Shiva Bhakthars originally.Vaishnavism came later only.Then there is Brahmar of course.Between the three lords and their consorts,the bhakthi got propagated,even far off regions like Egypt,Israel,Mecca,Medina.....etc prolly entire bhu-loka,as Sanathana Dharma.

Kurai Onrum Illai Kanna....so sang the legend MSS....for the Cannanites of Israel once upon a time long long ago....in her previous incarnation....but sure i do get a solid kick,when tamizh is used in TN...but when samskritam is used,its the original of all original creations,destruction,sustainer of gods.

sb:amen:

 

[kunjuppu]

kunjuppu

>>whenever i go to my home temple in toronto, i wish i could get the guts to request for tamil prayers. next time i am going to try. <<

i though toronto was populated with srilankan tamils who have built temples...not sure whether you have south indian run tamil temples there though...

sb

yes. but the sril lankan tamils are very orthodox. all the temples are now run by them, and run by them very well.

whereas we had our easy going brahminism, it has now been replaced by orthodoxy particularly as practiced in chidambaram. this according to one tamil brahmin trustee.

the srilankan tamils are better hindus than us.

 

[s007bala]

>>yes. but the sril lankan tamils are very orthodox. all the temples are now run by them, and run by them very well. <<

Thats good conduct certificate for them from you.

>>whereas we had our easy going brahminism, it has now been replaced by orthodoxy particularly as practiced in chidambaram. this according to one tamil brahmin trustee.

the srilankan tamils are better hindus than us. <<

Prolly his opinion about brahmins in general.As far srilankan tamils being better hindus than us,is exactly why,they are getting massacred by sinhalese buddhist in srilanka.

sb

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

yes. but the sril lankan tamils are very orthodox. all the temples are now run by them, and run by them very well.

whereas we had our easy going brahminism, it has now been replaced by orthodoxy particularly as practiced in chidambaram. this according to one tamil brahmin trustee.

the srilankan tamils are better hindus than us.

The term might well be orthopaxy... as I learnt in this forum?? :loco:

So, according to the trustee, does being orthodox demeans the status of a brahmin relative to that the other?

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

sb, it is precisely this kind of localized regional sentiments that is dragging us down... agreed that it helps at the micro level, but at a broader level, we have to forego certain interests for the sake of society...

this kind of fanaticism on tamil language is so much so that it creeps into unnecessary areas as well... moreover, such a person would never be able to come out of such an attitude as well.. it blends with his ego and gradually becomes inseparable...

bottomline - there is no urgent necessity for a voluntary thrust on our part to mandate tamil archanai... let it evolve as naturally as it happenned in the early days... through bhakthi and pure love... let us not commercialise our sentiments on an issue that is really not present in the current society...

 

[s007bala]

re

sb, it is precisely this kind of localized regional sentiments that is dragging us down... agreed that it helps at the micro level, but at a broader level, we have to forego certain interests for the sake of society...

S S,at least where i live in USA,our temple has got all nationalities mingled.We also have sri lankan tamizhs.Granted that saiva siddhantam is ultimate for these sri lankans,but are extremely devoted to amman worship also.My ex-doctor was sri lankan tamizh,now prolly sri lankan-american!

this kind of fanaticism on tamil language is so much so that it creeps into unnecessary areas as well... moreover, such a person would never be able to come out of such an attitude as well.. it blends with his ego and gradually becomes inseparable...

Ayyo,tell me about it.Tamizh rabid fanatics.They go lattu man,as if Tamizh is the greatest language on earth and rest are pygmy language-some nerve these freakos have.Thank god,i was raised in so many states of India,and i think all languages are fantastic.Now English is the tops!!Maybe archanai in english,i should start working on this idea,hmmmm:tea:

bottomline - there is no urgent necessity for a voluntary thrust on our part to mandate tamil archanai... let it evolve as naturally as it happenned in the early days... through bhakthi and pure love... let us not commercialise our sentiments on an issue that is really not present in the current society...

S S,what is there to be thrust,its been done already.When i visited Ayyappan Temple built by M A M Ramasamy( Mac ) in chennai,its all about Tamizh only in the temple.In fact when you chant all that is written there,its pure ecstacy.Swamiye Sharanam Ayyappa!!

Kazhagams have won the battle definitely NOT the war.

sb:bolt:

 

[prabhakaran123]

tamizil archani sivadu tavara

enai porutha varai god is omnipotent
he hears your mind and not your language
in those days when brahmins used sanskrits as their commuication language
all devotional slokas were told byh sanskrits
that is how vedas too wre witen in sanskrits
sanskirt was not the communication language for evesry one

Arunagiri nathar, vallalar, patinathar and many others een manyu siava nayanmargal prayed god in their own olaguage

so in my opinion there is no bar in praying or ding archana in tamil or any other languages know to the individuals

I would like to state Dyanaeshwari was a tarnslation of geetha in marathi language made by Dnyaneshwar the great marathi branhmin saint with a view thta the same should be easily accesible to common man

abhang were by saint Tukaram in marathi. It is sung now all oer mahashtrawith devotion.

So thre is nothing wrong in praying or doing archana in tamil

prabhakaran.

 

[malgova.mango]

my take!

archanai is to please GOD and not Bhakthas. Temple is not a commercial place where customer service is the focus.

The central focus is GOD. So if by tradition Sanaskrit name of GOD is used to invoke , why change the language.

Infact the whole METHODOLOGY of how to do it is in Sanskrit - what to do about it.

 

[s007bala]

re

my take!

archanai is to please GOD and not Bhakthas. Temple is not a commercial place where customer service is the focus.

The central focus is GOD. So if by tradition Sanaskrit name of GOD is used to invoke , why change the language.

Infact the whole METHODOLOGY of how to do it is in Sanskrit - what to do about it.

Dhool!But Tamizh methodology of worship is also there,that is why many sampradayas of brahmin maths,changed as per the wishes of the ruling parties viz Kazhagams.Mother/Father tongue is Tamizh in TN,so Kazhagam is enforcing this.But Kazhagams are missing the bigger picture,that Samskritam is universal standard for hindus of the bhu-loka!

Kazhagam is trying to replace samskritam to tamizh speaking people in bhu-loka!Maybe Samskritis may even relent this as this is only TN related or may take a different view,blast TN itself to ignominy.Aagattum Paarkalam was famous saying of Kamarajar Nadar (lets wait and see ),though his party is tooling behind kazhagams:loco:

sb

 

[KRS]

Temple worship is definitely for the Bhakthas only. Every scripture and all our saints say that He is like a SUN. Like Atman, He is a witness and does not get affected by any of our actions. So if we go beyond Saguna aspect (which then personifies the Nirguna), then it is clear that worship is to mainly purify the Bhakthas mind so the ultimate 'knowledge' is near at hand.

There is nothing wrong to say that the Bhaktha should be the focus of any temple worship. Because of them the temple was built up in the first place. It is not correct to connect it with commercialism.

Yes, the methods of worship are laid out in Sanskrit. The methods of Bhakthi are also laid out in Tamil. As it has been proven by many Tamil saints, who have done miraculous things, He seemed to have 'listened' to them also.

So, in the end analysis, language of the worship that a Bhaktha understands matters. If Sanskrit is the only language that He understands, then no other language would have been born. It is silly to hold a language in between the worshipper and Him. This actually has a tinge of arrogance.

KRS

 

[s007bala]

KRS

What you written is accurate.But in TN,Tamizh Kazhagams have a mission either by hook or by crook,to dislodge brahmincal zeal of samskritam replaced,so brahmins are targetted at every step of the way,as they are perceived to be the one influencing samskritam.

Kinda like racial profiling,i am sure you are aware of it as per your frequent visit to India.Language is nothing but verbal communication for the ears to hear,to make budhi work.

All languages are divine.The priestly class created a system,to corner,their security and hold on masses via god.One can directly communicate with god,as the dumb & deaf are doing too,isn't it?Tamizh priestly class also created a system in which Tamizh is so different from the present Tamizh.MGR went and changed during his regime,as to write differently from the Tamizh that was taught to me in school.Younger generations of Tamizh have learnt it differently,from a Malayalee Origin Sri-Lankan Tamizhan CM's diktat,as per his council of advicers????

sb

 

[KRS]

Sri bala,

Yes. The Kazhagam groups have targeted this. But then their tactics is largely successful. Why?

It is because there are a lot of TBs who hold the same notion as Malgova does. They do not want to give an inch. So, it is easy for these morons of different Kazhagams to exploit this with the public.

Because we did not do a good enough job to spread the knowledge of Sanskrit in a land which had it's own proud tradition of Tamil, we are looked upon as the 'northeners'. Yes I know we have contributed mightily towards Tamil. But the fact remains that we, the TBs never took any measures to spread the knowledge of Sanskrit among the Tamil masses. This would have made them realize that Sanskrit is also a language of their past.

While I hate the actions of these kazhagam people, I also always sense that we the TBs try to keep seperate from our NB Tamil brothers. This creates a tension. For example, in certain temples, we still limit the auctioning of the resident Ambal's saris only to Brahmins. We need to stop these practices that came about late, that have no roots in our scriptures. If we do that then people of Tamil origin will start listening to us. Till then we will be the political whipping boys, as we conveniently provide an easy target to all as the cause of all ills in TN, including lack of rain or too much rain.

KRS

KRS

What you written is accurate.But in TN,Tamizh Kazhagams have a mission either by hook or by crook,to dislodge brahmincal zeal of samskritam replaced,so brahmins are targetted at every step of the way,as they are perceived to be the one influencing samskritam.

Kinda like racial profiling,i am sure you are aware of it as per your frequent visit to India.Language is nothing but verbal communication for the ears to hear,to make budhi work.

All languages are divine.The priestly class created a system,to corner,their security and hold on masses via god.One can directly communicate with god,as the dumb & deaf are doing too,isn't it?Tamizh priestly class also created a system in which Tamizh is so different from the present Tamizh.MGR went and changed during his regime,as to write differently from the Tamizh that was taught to me in school.Younger generations of Tamizh have learnt it differently,from a Malayalee Origin Sri-Lankan Tamizhan CM's diktat,as per his council of advicers????

sb

 

[s007bala]

re

Sri bala,

Yes. The Kazhagam groups have targeted this. But then their tactics is largely successful. Why?

It is because there are a lot of TBs who hold the same notion as Malgova does. They do not want to give an inch. So, it is easy for these morons of different Kazhagams to exploit this with the public.

I think Nacchinarkiniyan correctly wrote in one of the threads i think,about Saiva Siddhanthams Sampradayams,portrayals of brahmins, as notherners settling in TN.But then Tamizhs themselves apart from brahmins, are settlers from Africa,is my response to Kazhagams cruel joke on brahmins in TN.

Because we did not do a good enough job to spread the knowledge of Sanskrit in a land which had it's own proud tradition of Tamil, we are looked upon as the 'northeners'. Yes I know we have contributed mightily towards Tamil. But the fact remains that we, the TBs never took any measures to spread the knowledge of Sanskrit among the Tamil masses. This would have made them realize that Sanskrit is also a language of their past.

Good point.

While I hate the actions of these kazhagam people, I also always sense that we the TBs try to keep seperate from our NB Tamil brothers. This creates a tension. For example, in certain temples, we still limit the auctioning of the resident Ambal's saris only to Brahmins. We need to stop these practices that came about late, that have no roots in our scriptures. If we do that then people of Tamil origin will start listening to us. Till then we will be the political whipping boys, as we conveniently provide an easy target to all as the cause of all ills in TN, including lack of rain or too much rain.

KRS

I thought auction is common to highest bidder.KRS this is news to me..hmmm.Got to admit what you write is extremely logical now to me.But then Dr.J.Jayalalithaa is a brahmin and a leading contender for CM's position in TN,and thats prolly the reason why she is whipping HDG H H JS & HDG H H VS, of Kanchi Math to distance herself from brahmins.But i must say,when i lived in Chennai,i never felt discriminated or upset with Kazhagams,though sporadic comments by riff raffs used to happen,to which i have been subjected to even here.So,i guess everything is a fair game when it comes to bashing Brahmins in TN.

sb

 

[malgova.mango]

There are many Tamil temples , like Maariamman, Kaliamman temple where the Pujari performs as in Tamil culture. Nobody force a person there to follow Sanskrit Language

There are also many Temples which follows Sanskrit Traditions.

Everything has a place.

The how to do , who to do is all dealt in a body of knowledge called Aagamas - each temples follow a particular tradition passed on to them by - the priest are mere followers they didn't set the traditions. they don't have the authority to change anything cause they are mere actors.

Temple is not for worship of Bhaktas , - The central focus is the GOD - Bhaktas go there to worship GOD. not vice versa.

 

[malgova.mango]

sanskrit is not for everyone, sanskrit demands a lot of dedication to learn - not all are inclined to learn. only selected few excels.

Leave Sanskrit

Take tamizh - ask them to pronounce zha - many won't they will simply pronounce as "la" this is after 50 years of tamizh education. Even the Teacher will pronounce "zha" as la - so tamizh becomes tamil.

It is not a big thing, but people lacks effort, shraddha to learn. It takes a little bit of shradda to practice "zha" but simply many won't do that - this is how things are.

That's why Sanskrit remains a language for Scholars. Even Tamizh is divided as Panditha Tamizh and Pamara Tamil.

If you take the names of Lord Vishnu - from sahasranama - one can jolly well deduct the importance of various akshara - The aksharas ka,cha,ta,dha,bha - takes 4 forms. "Bhuthaathma" - with the ba in 4th place and "poothathma" with the pa in first place are 2 differnt names .

In Tamil there is no equivalent word to substitute - so how to do Archannai , which is nothing but invoking GOD in different Sanskrit names.

So if you try to invoke the name of Visnu in Tamil - you will be calling his name twice as Poothaathma and Poothathma but not 2 differnt names of HIM. So you are not performing the ritual as prescribed .

 

[KRS]

The postings above, while very sincere, illustrate the exact problems we have.

Yes, the Aagama traditions of tantric tradition spelt out the exact way to construct a temple and do the rituals. But they were prescribed in a time and place where Sanskrit was the prime language of worship.

The Tamil temples essentially were the local village temples before the advent of Brahminism in the south. They grew out of local culture. When the big temples were built, Brahminism was in full swing, and the Aagama tradition was followed.

So the great kings of the south built those grand temples following these traditions. We have already seen that where they built such temples in regions where the local languages were amenable to change, we see the quasi dravidian languages of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu. They all adapted to these changes. But since Tamil language was so strong in it's tradition it would not adapt to such influences. So Sanskrit stayed apart from Tamil, with the bad consequences we see today.

Traditions and worship are for the Bhakthas. God does not exist in vacuum without the Bhakthas. No temple was ever built without envisioning that Bhakthas would come. While the Kings built the temples to propitiate the God they revered, it was never their intention to keep them private.

So, one needs to ask the basic question. If temples are built for the Gods only, then why allow certain Bhakthas in to the temples? Why allow only the Tamil knowing populations who have no knowledge of Sanskrit in to the Aagamic temples, and vice versa? The answer is that a temple is for the Bhaktha and not the other way around, based on our Vedic principle I have already explained in my earlier posting.

Hindu traditions always focus on catering to the different emotional, mental, philosophical and the mata physical aspects of an individual person to inch towards the final answer. It is never about shutting out a person's advancement in his/her spiritual journey in their current life towards their own Moksha. If a person wants to have the darshan of the Lord in Srirangam, for example, he should have every right to ask for a method of worship to his Ishta Daivatha, as he pleases. I think that the reposing great Lord Vishna would understand this - after all, who else but Sri Ramanuja Acharya, with his open heart to all human beings told us so!

The arguments based on language and liguistics are old and tiresome. It is time we allow each and every person in our religion (including Dalits) free acces to worship in all temples. If we do not, unfortunately, we will slowly see our temples vanish before us.

Worship can not be limited to certain people because of language. This is the truth.

KRS

 

[malgova.mango]

I'm a chozia, my native is Tanjore and we didn't migrate from North. We are natives of Tamil Nadu.

We believe we live there since Tholkappiar times.

Some Brahmins do come from North - that doesn't mean Tamil Country is devoid of Brahmins before their arrival. Tamil Country is Arya Bhoomi since Anjaneya days.

Rishi Agasthiyar was tutoring many Brahmins in his Ashrama during Ramayana days.
Tholkappiyar is a Brahmin.

My Chittappa is a research scholar, teacher and I can scan and produce his research material authentically quoting from various texts that Brahmins existed in Tamil Desam from time immemorial.

So in all times Sanskrit also is with them - there is no historic evidence suggesting all the things come from the NORTH - there may be some influence from the North - that's all.

In Tamil Country the use of Sanskrit is prevalent since time immemorial and temple worship as prescribed in AAGAMAS is also prevalent from time immemorial.

The Fact the Vyagrapathar worshipped Lord and chanted many hymns in Sanskrit on His Lord in Tilla vanam confirms the existence of Sanskrit and Vedic culture from time immemorial.

this "before the advent of Brahmins.... " doesn't hold any water.

So live and let live, this is what we are asking.

............................

"Temple is for Bhakta" is agreed if only Bhaktas are defined as worshipper of the Lord.

First one should know about one thing then they can negate or define it - that is the order of understanding.

See if one doesn't know what is all about Brinjal, if someother one asks this fellow what is Brinjal ? - if one is HONEST then he'll say I don't know what you are talking about. isn't it?

Now , please think and tell can anyone say GOD exists - honestly one should say one don't know - because the recognition of what GOD is doesn't take place.

Then how can one comment existence of GOD is dependent on BHAKTA? GOD doesn't exist in vaccum. etc...

Infact Nirgunam is another term for vaccum ...
..............................................................................................

No one is denying individual worship , they can pray,propitiate and do whatever they want AND can have Dharshan and say prayer in any known language.

You can invoke his names in Tamil and do namaskarams that's perfectly ok.

But you can't force the traditional people doing upacharams to the LORD for generation after generation since time immemorial - to do in your style.
just because you don't like their style.
This is arrogance.. where is Bhakti here. Only your agambhavam is there.
There is no SARANAM.
You are playing a EGO game in the name of devotee.

If you so desire, please build your own temple , invoke the Lord and do whatever you please. No one is harmed in that way.

 

[malgova.mango]

the well-being of bhaktas is taken care by the LORD upon pleasing the LORD as per the Tantric tradition as an automatic process. That's why it derives the name TANTRA.

For example if you want to sing well, need pleasing voice then they advocate THENABHISHEKAM.

If you want good health, then some other forms of pleasing the LORD.

So this is what is called TANTRA - only Rishis knows how it gets connected..

 

[ravivararo]

<<we will be the political whipping boys, as we conveniently provide an easy target to all as the cause of all ills in TN, including lack of rain or too much rain.>>

nobody will prevent to have utopian day dream.

<<This would have made them realize that Sanskrit is also a language of their past.>>
Aryan people in South India now has to speak only dravidian languages. no other option but to speak paisachi basha instead of Devabhasha.
:attention:

Sri bala,

Yes. The Kazhagam groups have targeted this. But then their tactics is largely successful. Why?

It is because there are a lot of TBs who hold the same notion as Malgova does. They do not want to give an inch. So, it is easy for these morons of different Kazhagams to exploit this with the public.

Because we did not do a good enough job to spread the knowledge of Sanskrit in a land which had it's own proud tradition of Tamil, we are looked upon as the 'northeners'. Yes I know we have contributed mightily towards Tamil. But the fact remains that we, the TBs never took any measures to spread the knowledge of Sanskrit among the Tamil masses. This would have made them realize that Sanskrit is also a language of their past.

While I hate the actions of these kazhagam people, I also always sense that we the TBs try to keep seperate from our NB Tamil brothers. This creates a tension. For example, in certain temples, we still limit the auctioning of the resident Ambal's saris only to Brahmins. We need to stop these practices that came about late, that have no roots in our scriptures. If we do that then people of Tamil origin will start listening to us. Till then we will be the political whipping boys, as we conveniently provide an easy target to all as the cause of all ills in TN, including lack of rain or too much rain.

KRS

 

[palindrome]

Aryan people in South India now has to speak only dravidian languages. no other option but to speak paisachi basha instead of Devabhasha.

All Indians are Aryans. Both Sanskrit and Tamil are devabhashas, coming from nearly the same time frame of antiquity in origin. Please do not look down upon any language as paisachi bhashai.

 

[ravivararo]

<< That's why Sanskrit remains a language for Scholars. Even Tamizh is divided as Panditha Tamizh and Pamara Tamil.>>

whats the use. Tamil alone the popular languge. Sanskrit was renounced by all Aryan people and they are speaking dravidian languages.

<<The aksharas ka,cha,ta,dha,bha - takes 4 forms. "Bhuthaathma" - with the ba in 4th place and "poothathma" with the pa in first place are 2 differnt names .>>

Still Skt is a dead language and not spoken by any Aryan community for day to day communication. There is tamil proverb" Enna Perumaida Emali, Thavittu perumaiyada komali"

sanskrit is not for everyone, sanskrit demands a lot of dedication to learn - not all are inclined to learn. only selected few excels.

Leave Sanskrit

Take tamizh - ask them to pronounce zha - many won't they will simply pronounce as "la" this is after 50 years of tamizh education. Even the Teacher will pronounce "zha" as la - so tamizh becomes tamil.

It is not a big thing, but people lacks effort, shraddha to learn. It takes a little bit of shradda to practice "zha" but simply many won't do that - this is how things are.

That's why Sanskrit remains a language for Scholars. Even Tamizh is divided as Panditha Tamizh and Pamara Tamil.

If you take the names of Lord Vishnu - from sahasranama - one can jolly well deduct the importance of various akshara - The aksharas ka,cha,ta,dha,bha - takes 4 forms. "Bhuthaathma" - with the ba in 4th place and "poothathma" with the pa in first place are 2 differnt names .

In Tamil there is no equivalent word to substitute - so how to do Archannai , which is nothing but invoking GOD in different Sanskrit names.

So if you try to invoke the name of Visnu in Tamil - you will be calling his name twice as Poothaathma and Poothathma but not 2 differnt names of HIM. So you are not performing the ritual as prescribed .

 

[ravivararo]

if the conversation between Goddess Sita and Lord Anjaneya is Tamil as per http://tashindu.blogspot.com/, then Tamil is Devabhaasha in reality, as Goddess Sita and lord Anjaneya are devas in Hindu Religion.


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]It is said that Lord Siva created the Sanskrit from Damarukam. but a human being namely Panini had codified the God's language i.e. Skt. God might not aware of grammar rules. therefore his is sudra (according to some people sudra means ignorant) since god himself had not codified Skt grammar. What a pity. Hence Panini, a human being codified grammar for God's language. amusing. if God created skt from Damurukam, naturally before that he should have speak non sanskrit language, i.e. Tamil. Therefore Tamil is Devabhasha and old language than Skt[/FONT][/FONT]
Therefore Tamil is Devabhasha and old language than Skt and suitable for Tamil worship in All temples including Chidambaram temple in toto.


uke:

I'm a chozia, my native is Tanjore and we didn't migrate from North. We are natives of Tamil Nadu.

We believe we live there since Tholkappiar times.

Some Brahmins do come from North - that doesn't mean Tamil Country is devoid of Brahmins before their arrival. Tamil Country is Arya Bhoomi since Anjaneya days.

Rishi Agasthiyar was tutoring many Brahmins in his Ashrama during Ramayana days.
Tholkappiyar is a Brahmin.

My Chittappa is a research scholar, teacher and I can scan and produce his research material authentically quoting from various texts that Brahmins existed in Tamil Desam from time immemorial.

So in all times Sanskrit also is with them - there is no historic evidence suggesting all the things come from the NORTH - there may be some influence from the North - that's all.

In Tamil Country the use of Sanskrit is prevalent since time immemorial and temple worship as prescribed in AAGAMAS is also prevalent from time immemorial.

The Fact the Vyagrapathar worshipped Lord and chanted many hymns in Sanskrit on His Lord in Tilla vanam confirms the existence of Sanskrit and Vedic culture from time immemorial.

this "before the advent of Brahmins.... " doesn't hold any water.

So live and let live, this is what we are asking.

............................

"Temple is for Bhakta" is agreed if only Bhaktas are defined as worshipper of the Lord.

First one should know about one thing then they can negate or define it - that is the order of understanding.

See if one doesn't know what is all about Brinjal, if someother one asks this fellow what is Brinjal ? - if one is HONEST then he'll say I don't know what you are talking about. isn't it?

Now , please think and tell can anyone say GOD exists - honestly one should say one don't know - because the recognition of what GOD is doesn't take place.

Then how can one comment existence of GOD is dependent on BHAKTA? GOD doesn't exist in vaccum. etc...

Infact Nirgunam is another term for vaccum ...
..............................................................................................

No one is denying individual worship , they can pray,propitiate and do whatever they want AND can have Dharshan and say prayer in any known language.

You can invoke his names in Tamil and do namaskarams that's perfectly ok.

But you can't force the traditional people doing upacharams to the LORD for generation after generation since time immemorial - to do in your style.
just because you don't like their style.
This is arrogance.. where is Bhakti here. Only your agambhavam is there.
There is no SARANAM.
You are playing a EGO game in the name of devotee.

If you so desire, please build your own temple , invoke the Lord and do whatever you please. No one is harmed in that way.

 

[s007bala]

re

ravi vararo

>>Still Skt is a dead language and not spoken by any Aryan community for day to day communication. There is tamil proverb" Enna Perumaida Emali, Thavittu perumaiyada komali"<<

Rajaji=Tamizh Brahmanan
Anna Dorai=Tamizhan( Charavakkan)
Kamarajar=Tamizhan Nadar
EVR=Naturalised Tamizhan from Kannadigan Naicurse
MGR=Naturalised Tamizhan from Malayalee Sri-Lankan Nair
MUKA=Naturalised Tamizhan from Telengu Vellalar Ambattan
JJ=Naturalised Tamizhacchi from Kannadiagan Iyengar Brahmancchi
Captain=Naturalised Tamizhan from Telengu Naidu
Ramadoss=Naturalised Tamizhan
Stalin=Naturalised Tamizhan from MUKA'S lineage
Maran=Naturalised Tamizhan from MUKA's relations
........etc

Except for Kamarajar,Anna Dorai,Rajaji rest are from outside of TN ie non-tamizh nadu origination...and have been ruling the tamizh's now.So,who are the 'komalis' & 'koothalis' or ' emaali' ?=Tamizhs.

Aryan & Dravidian words were introduced from 1747 to divide Indian-subcontinent.'Muttals' are still chirping about this despite the 'british white english christians' have left the shores of indian-subcontinent to proxies, who continue to harp the same like them!Samskritam is used by priestly personality traits aka brahmanas for worship as per sampradayam.So,kill brahmanas is the answere thought out by kazhagams.

Kazhagam is breaking this tradition in the name of Tamizh,so that they can rule their 'punnakku' idealogy!!like 'paisaschas'.TN needs some exorcist to drive away the demons & devils out,looks like 'yahway-jesus-allah' are starting to do their 'tandavam' by driving away the Kazhagams or maybe from 'chotani karai temple' the namboothris have to be called?

The beauty is,MGR changed the style of Tamizh writing style to a different one while he ruled but not Malayalam style of wrting which was his mother tongue=illicha wayan tamzhan .:dance:

sb

 

[KRS]

I do not know whether Aryan invasion theory is correct or not. But the fact remains that Tamil is an ancient language distinct from Sanskrit. If it existed in vedic times in the South then we would have Tamil with Sanskrit roots. It is not so. Logic then dictates that it came from somewhere originally when Tamil already existed. Who knows when?

It is also a fact that Sanskrit was not taught to others in the community, except for the Brahmins in T.N. It doesn't matter why. It does matter that the majority of Tamilians do not today think Sanskrit as an ancestral language of theirs. Only TN Brahmins think so.

Of course temples and Gods exist for the sole purpose of a Bhaktha. In North India in many temples common people are allowed to do puja by themselves. Tradition has to change to suit the majority of worshippers' needs.

This does not mean throwing out the Aagamic principles and getting rid of all the established practices. This means to add Tamil archanais in temples where they do not have them today. As I have said before, Sanskrit mantras are known to have physical/meta physical effects. While I have not heard this aspect for Tamil, we have seen from the Bhakthi point of view, Tamil songs in the praise of the Lord, sung by Tamil saints had such physical/metaphysical effects.

If the orthodox want to have temples that follow only Aagamic principles then they should build private temples for themselves. Not the other way around. Public temples need to cater to the wishes of the public. If the majority of the public tomorrow want the Archanas to be gone completely then they will be gone. It does not matter whether one thinks that a temple is for GODs or for the Bhakthas. Tradition can not be kept up in the face of changing cultural values. If those traditions do not change in the face of such changing demands, the loser will be the people themselves, because those traditions will be gone forever. But every society undergoes changes and throws mercilessly away certain traditions that it views as anachronistic. This is the fact.

KRS

 

[KRS]

ravivararo Ji,

I don't understand your belittling Sanskrit as a language. No one except you seem to think that it is a language for Pisasus!

By extolling Tamil (which is correct) and at the same time demonizing Sanskrit (which is not correct), you make a very illogical argument. Your conclusions about Sanskrit are not agreed to by any noteworthy scholor around the globe.

By doing this you are losing credibility among the members of this Forum and you are actually hurting the cause for Tamil.

Please sir, if you can not put forth views based on logic and evidence, I will advise you not to post. Because people are laughing.

KRS