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A discussion on the oldest language

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I am copy-pasting a mail I received for the benefit of TBs:


When I went to the Mutt to have His darshan for the first time there were four foreigners there, an Israeli, an Italian, a German and a Britisher. They had come to do their PhD in Philology on the topic of 'the most ancient languages in the Occidental and the Oriental world'. They were studying Latin, Hebrew and Greek languages in the Occidental part and Sanskrit and Tamil in the Oriental part.

He went inside to do His Anushtanas; they had wanted to take a photo of Him but His kaingaryams refused. They were heartbroken that they could not take a picture. All the four of them were standing near a tree since morning. They asked His Sevakas when He will be done with the poojas but get an unconvincing reply.

I told the foriegners that we Indians are used to the way of life at the Mutt, but how come you all have been standing for the past 6 hours? One of them looks at his watch and exclaims, 'oh my God, has it been 6 hours? He is a Man of Certainty and is Beyond Time!'

Periyavaa came in after 10 minutes and we all went and prostrated to Him. Looking at the man (who had the camera hanging on his neck) who had wanted to take the photos, he gestures with His hands that he can take the pictures now. He posed for three photos and stops him before the fourth and enquires as to why they have come.

They tell him their purpose.

He asks, "So, did you arrive at a conclusion as to which is the most ancient language?"

The Israeli replied, "Hebrew is the most ancient in the Occident; but in the Oriental, people say that both Sanskrit and Tamil are the oldest, we are confused and that is why we are here for Your opinion".

He said, "There is another language which is the most ancient than all these, it is the Vedic Language. It is the Source of even Sanskrit and Hebrew."

"There is a verse about Rebirth in Hebrew, can you recite it completely?", asked Him to the Israeli by giving the man the first two words.

The Israeli recited it for 3 to 4 minutes. Swamigal looked around and asked some boys, have you studied Rig Veda, can you recite this particular verse?"

Those boys recited it for 5 minutes.

He asked me, "can you ask them if they understood what these boys recited now?"

The four men remain quiet.

Swamigal turns to the boys and says smilingly, "you all will definitely not understand what this man had recited in Hebrew!"

He turns to me and says, "tell that Israeli that what he had chanted before is the same as what these boys chanted!"

I told him, "Swamiji says that what is you had chanted is 'verbatically' same as the what the boys had chanted".

Swamigal corrects me, "What? Do not use the word 'verbatically', tell him that both the chants are 'alphabetically' the SAME!!!"

He said He will prove it and asked if we have a paper and a pen.

"In Vedas it is mentioned that the world has been classified into 32 portions/regions. And in each of the 32 geographic regions, Vedas say how the Veda Aksharas have changed/pronounced in those places!"

He asks each of them which region they come from and then explains to them how a particular Veda Aksharam is changed in their individual places! He asks the boys to recite verse from Rig Veda again and tells the men how each Aksharam in Rig Veda in that verse will sound in their Regions!

The Sarveshwaran tells me, "I will now say this verse with some difficulty as it has been a long time since I had Abhyasam, ask that Israeli if he understands my recital!"

To the boys He says, "I will now say it in a slightly different form based on how each Aksharam will sound in Hebrew. Please do not think it is wrong; there is this injunction in the Vedas that it can be recited this way also."

And The Sarveshwaran starts to say it, slowly. Wonder of Wonders, the Israeli starts to recite it Together with Him!!!

(Sarveshwaraa, I am unable to type now due to a flood of emotions...)

We were all Stunned!

"I told you earlier, the same verse in Rig Veda is present ditto in Hebrew, but the Aksharas have changed slightly. (like we say Yamuna but in the North it is Jamuna, Va in the south is Ba in West Bengal, Paa in Tamil is Haa in Kannada etc) Therefore, the most ancient language in the world is the Vedic language!"

Swamigal asked the four men to prepare a table and fill it with how the Rig Veda Aksharams sounded in their language. This was completed in 15 minutes.

The Israeli was shocked and exclaimed, "this is something unimaginable!"

He asks him, "what do you think now, do you now agree that everything has sprung from Vedas?"

The look on the Israeli was not convincing.

He says, "what, is he thinking that why, could not have Vedas originated from Hebrew?"

The man says, "yes, it could have been the reverse also, the Vedas could have come from Hebrew".

Periyavaa replies, "you have only the lock, whereas we have both the key and the lock! It is even mentioned in the Vedas as to which Maharishi from here in India went to your region and spread/taught Vedas in Israel!"

The man seemed to be convinced in the end.


<< Translated from Thiruvannamalai Shri Gowrishankar's tamil video interview in mahaperiyavaa.wordpress.com>>
 
I used to wonder if its true that Sanskrit or Tamil was the world's oldest language??

But now after studying Panini's Grammar I am starting to think that a language so organized and intricate could not have been the oldest cos Sanskrit itself means 'perfected' and well done..so for something to be well done..it needs to have been thru lots of stages to finally be refined..just like how an uncut carbon becomes a brilliant diamond.

Well just think logically..observe a human child..when a child first starts to make noise..its still very primal..crying,gestures,grimaces etc..then some sounds as the child grows up..some lisping..starting to say a few words which the meaning only he/she knows and then finally picks up the language he/she is spoken to.

So may be languages like Sanskrit..Tamil and Vedic Language got organized much before other languages but might not have been the oldest.

Vedic Sanskrit follows a different rule of Grammar which is not used in General Sanskrit..so I wonder if Vedic Language existed on its own and later Sanskritized to standardize Vedas..otherwise why is the Grammar different?

Even some Pre Paninian Sanskrit is different..as in Bhadram Karnebhih and not Badhram Karnabhyam and language kept evolving.

Panini's Sutras has a Sutra : Upadeshe janunasika it. उपदेशे S जनुनासिक इत् which means :

The Nasalized vowels are indicatory in Upadesa or Original Enunciation.

Once upon a time Nasalized vowels were used..but now it is not seen anymore..this itself shows that language of any kind evolves.

Sanskrit grammar has not changed for a long long time cos may be it was not that actively used..hence major changes does not take place anymore.

So if you ask me..we might not have any idea..we humans still retain our primal basic instincts....the worlds oldest language could be something that all humans knew but that eventually evolved into various languages of the world now.

So what is the world Oldest Language?? I have no idea??Right now the oldest language remains the Language of the Heart which needs no words.
 
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The Israeli recited it for 3 to 4 minutes. Swamigal looked around and asked some boys, have you studied Rig Veda, can you recite this particular verse?"

It is even mentioned in the Vedas as to which Maharishi from here in India went to your region and spread/taught Vedas in Israel!"


I wonder why facts are not stated here..its so vague..that is :

1)Which is the verse from the Rigveda which is being talked about here?

Why was it not stated?


2)What was the name of the Maharishi who went from India to Israel?


How come 2 major facts were left out in this email?? Wonder why??
 
renuka;218004 Sanskrit grammar has not changed for a long long time cos may be it was not that actively used..hence major changes does not take place anymore. So if you ask me..we might not have any idea..we humans still retain our primal basic instincts....the worlds oldest language could be something that all humans knew but that eventually evolved into various languages of the world now. So what is the world Oldest Language?? I have no idea??Right now the oldest language remains the [ILanguage of the Heart[/I said:
which needs no words.
Doctor,
I am with you in your views. We cannot fix a time line for the origin of languages. Languages are evolved as a medium of communication between people. They pass through various stages of development and changes with the passing of time. As the name itself suggest Sanskrit is a refined language. It got its root in Vedic language.Language of Vedas also known as "Chandas" and was not a written language. According to Panini Chandas play important role in the study of Vedas. Vedic language is in Chandas. It is believed that the oldest source of Chandas is ‘Chandasurta’. Vedic hymns were considered apauruseya revealed by themselves to the sages and known as Sruti and passed on through word of mouth. It was considered so sacred no changes were allowed in it.
 
Dating is a western concept. We do not date anything - language, dynasties, sidhdhantam, puranas.

Doctor,
I am with you in your views. We cannot fix a time line for the origin of languages. Languages are evolved as a medium of communication between people. They pass through various stages of development and changes with the passing of time. As the name itself suggest Sanskrit is a refined language. It got its root in Vedic language.Language of Vedas also known as "Chandas" and was not a written language. According to Panini Chandas play important role in the study of Vedas. Vedic language is in Chandas. It is believed that the oldest source of Chandas is ‘Chandasurta’. Vedic hymns were considered apauruseya revealed by themselves to the sages and known as Sruti and passed on through word of mouth. It was considered so sacred no changes were allowed in it.
 
Dating is a western concept. We do not date anything - language, dynasties, sidhdhantam, puranas.

Yes I agree that dating anything was very seldom practiced..very few authors of anything actually wrote the date and era of their composition.

Indians think that everything is beyond time and nothing is really ours and authors did not want to claim ownership to anything but that is only fine to a certain extent... without proper dating nothing can be considered concrete evidence and might only be called Mythology.

So you see ancients should have given anything they did a thought and thought of the future generation.

Ancients should have also learnt about Law and Patenting!
 
Doctor,
I am with you in your views. We cannot fix a time line for the origin of languages. Languages are evolved as a medium of communication between people. They pass through various stages of development and changes with the passing of time. As the name itself suggest Sanskrit is a refined language. It got its root in Vedic language.Language of Vedas also known as "Chandas" and was not a written language. According to Panini Chandas play important role in the study of Vedas. Vedic language is in Chandas. It is believed that the oldest source of Chandas is ‘Chandasurta’. Vedic hymns were considered apauruseya revealed by themselves to the sages and known as Sruti and passed on through word of mouth. It was considered so sacred no changes were allowed in it.

Dear Sir,

Thank you very much for the information about Chandas etc.
 
Doctor, I am with you in your views. We cannot fix a time line for the origin of languages. Languages are evolved as a medium of communication between people. They pass through various stages of development and changes with the passing of time. As the name itself suggest Sanskrit is a refined language. It got its root in Vedic language.Language of Vedas also known as "Chandas" and was not a written language. According to Panini Chandas play important role in the study of Vedas. Vedic language is in Chandas. It is believed that the oldest source of Chandas is ‘Chandasurta’. Vedic hymns were considered apauruseya revealed by themselves to the sages and known as Sruti and passed on through word of mouth. It was considered so sacred no changes were allowed in it.
Respected Shri Brahmanyan, I thought, on seeing this OP yesterday, that it was yet another instance of eulogization/deification of the "mahaperiyava" and the coincidence with the Puduchery Sessions Court verdict was also relevant. Yet, since, it is being activelt discussed here, may I point out that the sanskrit word छन्दः (छन्दस्) -chandaḥ or chandas does not actually refer to the language of the vedas or a pre-sanskrit language; it means the vedas in a general way; for example, यश्छन्दसामृषभो विश्वरूपः । छन्दोभ्य्ऽध्यमृतात् सम्बभूव । (तैत्तिरीयोपनिषद्-१-४) [yaśchandasāmṛṣabho viśvarūpaḥ | chandobhy:'dhyamṛtāt sambabhūva | (taittirīyopaniṣad-1-4)]. The more accurate meaning of the word chandaḥ is metrical prosody or the vṛttas as it is called in later sanskrit. According to Monier Williams' dictionary, छन्दस् , means — n. desire, longing for, delight pleasure, wish, will ; free will ; meaning, intention, purport, object ; a sacred hymn or verse as distin- guished from the verses of the four Vedas, a verse which is neither Rig, nor Saman, nor Yajus, nor Atharvana, originally perhaps a hymn or verse used in incantations; the sacred text of the Vedic hymns ; metre in general, supposed to consist of three or seven typical forms ; metrical science, prosody. I tend to discount the whole incident of the OP as just another attempt at hagiography. The points raised in post # 3 are crucial. Plus if some random boys could recite exactly the verse from the rigveda, after hearing an Israeli recite a Hebrew verse for 5 or 6 minutes, then those children will appear to be as much, if not more, knowledgeable than the sanyasi.
 
Dear Sri "Sangom",

My post on the subject is limited to the name of language used in "Vedas" and fixing dateline to the ancient languages. Yes, as you have correctly mentioned the word chandaḥ is metrical prosody.

As a seeker of knowledge I was curious to know the name of language of the Vedas. I searched many internet
sources and a few books for getting an answer. Thus my knowledge is very limited and that too an acquired one.
I give below few passages from the Articles on the subject. Of Course,these are not final and I am open for correction.

"Chandas is the technical name for the language of the Vedas, Generate Bhashaa is the technical name for the crafting of a true and perfect expression. Chandas is sacred and Bhashaa is technically perfected expression. Both are not at par with social language, social historical languages like prakrutham, mleccha , jati-bhasha etc. (private email from Dr. BVK.Sastry, Oct.11, 2013)". (HaindavaKeralam - Aryam : Some considerations)

Kanchi Acharya Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswathi has given exhastive lectures on Vedas which are available in the collections of his lectures under Hindu Dharma. I quote a sentance from the same hereunder:
"We so often hear people[Tamils] speak of 'Chanda-t-Tamizh'. Men of devotion say that the praises of the lord must be sung in 'Chanda-t-Thamizh'. 'Chanda(m)' is derived from 'Chandas'. 'Chandas', as I have already said, means the Vedas. ... " (Hindu Dharma: Chandas : kamakoti.org)

"The word ‘Chhandas’ is generally used for ‘VEDA’. "Chhandasi-Vachanam" (PANINI SUTRA)." says Shri Radhakrishna Shastri in his well researched article The language and script of Vedas" (The language and script of Vedas)

There is a reference I found in Buddhist Literature also .

"Even in "Tripitakas" the words "saviththi chandaso mukha" have appeared. In this expression also the word "Chandas" has been used for Vedas or the sacred text of Vedic hymns. Hence Lord Budhda accepted the meaning of Chhandas as that of Vedic Sanskrit." says Nagraj (Muni) in the book "Āgama Aura Tripiṭaka: Language and literature".

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Dear Sri "Sangom",

My post on the subject is limited to the name of language used in "Vedas" and fixing dateline to the ancient languages. Yes, as you have correctly mentioned the word chandaḥ is metrical prosody.

As a seeker of knowledge I was curious to know the name of language of the Vedas. I searched many internet
sources and a few books for getting an answer. Thus my knowledge is very limited and that too an acquired one.
I give below few passages from the Articles on the subject. Of Course,these are not final and I am open for correction.

"Chandas is the technical name for the language of the Vedas, Generate Bhashaa is the technical name for the crafting of a true and perfect expression. Chandas is sacred and Bhashaa is technically perfected expression. Both are not at par with social language, social historical languages like prakrutham, mleccha , jati-bhasha etc. (private email from Dr. BVK.Sastry, Oct.11, 2013)". (HaindavaKeralam - Aryam : Some considerations)

Kanchi Acharya Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswathi has given exhastive lectures on Vedas which are available in the collections of his lectures under Hindu Dharma. I quote a sentance from the same hereunder:
"We so often hear people[Tamils] speak of 'Chanda-t-Tamizh'. Men of devotion say that the praises of the lord must be sung in 'Chanda-t-Thamizh'. 'Chanda(m)' is derived from 'Chandas'. 'Chandas', as I have already said, means the Vedas. ... " (Hindu Dharma: Chandas : kamakoti.org)

"The word ‘Chhandas’ is generally used for ‘VEDA’. "Chhandasi-Vachanam" (PANINI SUTRA)." says Shri Radhakrishna Shastri in his well researched article The language and script of Vedas" (The language and script of Vedas)

There is a reference I found in Buddhist Literature also .

"Even in "Tripitakas" the words "saviththi chandaso mukha" have appeared. In this expression also the word "Chandas" has been used for Vedas or the sacred text of Vedic hymns. Hence Lord Budhda accepted the meaning of Chhandas as that of Vedic Sanskrit." says Nagraj (Muni) in the book "Āgama Aura Tripiṭaka: Language and literature".

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Sir,

I am also saying that the word Chandas denotes the vedas and/or vedic texts in a general way but not the language of the Rigveda. Actually, the other three vedas are younger. Perhaps we may call the language of the rigveda as "ancient sanskrit". Panini's efforts to exhibit his skills most probably throttled the continued growth of this ancient sanskrit at least among the dwija categories and effectively made sanskrit into a dead language in course of time; people preferred the easier praakrut or the other local vernaculars which originated from the praakrut+ pali combine and since there were no suffocating grammatical rules in many of these regional languages, they flourished and became the regional languages today and even succeeded in dividing India on linguistic lines.

Kanchi Acharya Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswathi saying Chandattamizh arose from Chandas +tamizh has no apparent authority except his own. But in the maNipravaalam which reigned in the ancient south, the word chantham meant beauty and is still so used in Malayalam. (e.g., kANAn entu chandam? means how beautiful to look at?).

Vedas are called Chandas because the rigveda, samaveda and much of Yajurveda are composed according to metrical rules or Chandases. Why would brahmanas say thrice daily that "gAyatree, uShNik, anuShTup, brahaatee, pangtee, triShTubh, jagatye chandAgmsi" as part of sanshyaavandanam?
 
the title of the thread implies sanskrit is the oldest language.

it can be disputed if sanskrit is india born. tamil was the original language of sindhu samaveli and gradually pushed downwards. there are enough evidence for that from adhichanallur to other archaelogical sites.

let us pause for a moment to think about that. thank you.
 
Dear Sir,

I am also saying that the word Chandas denotes the vedas and/or vedic texts in a general way but not the language of the Rigveda. Actually, the other three vedas are younger. Perhaps we may call the language of the rigveda as "ancient sanskrit". Panini's efforts to exhibit his skills most probably throttled the continued growth of this ancient sanskrit at least among the dwija categories and effectively made sanskrit into a dead language in course of time; people preferred the easier praakrut or the other local vernaculars which originated from the praakrut+ pali combine and since there were no suffocating grammatical rules in many of these regional languages, they flourished and became the regional languages today and even succeeded in dividing India on linguistic lines.

Kanchi Acharya Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswathi saying Chandattamizh arose from Chandas +tamizh has no apparent authority except his own. But in the maNipravaalam which reigned in the ancient south, the word chantham meant beauty and is still so used in Malayalam. (e.g., kANAn entu chandam? means how beautiful to look at?).

Vedas are called Chandas because the rigveda, samaveda and much of Yajurveda are composed according to metrical rules or Chandases. Why would brahmanas say thrice daily that "gAyatree, uShNik, anuShTup, brahaatee, pangtee, triShTubh, jagatye chandAgmsi" as part of sanshyaavandanam?

Dear Sangom ji,

I remember reading the Chandogya Upanishad which had mentioned about the word Chandas..which technically means "To Cover"

Taken from the Chandogya Upanishad:

Ch.U.I.4.

I.4.2 The devas, indeed, being afraid of death entered into the vedic
rites (yajnas). They covered (themselves) with the metre. The metre
(chandas) came to be known so because they (the devas) covered
themselves (AchAdayan) themselves with these.


Here it sorts of implies that the usage of the terminology Chandas only came into existence after the act of Devas being afraid of death and hiding in the Vedic Yagna..so what was the terminology used to denote Chandas before the act of the Devas hiding in the Vedic Yagna?
 
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Dear Sangom ji,

I remember reading the Chandogya Upanishad which had mentioned about the word Chandas..which technically means "To Cover"

Taken from the Chandogya Upanishad:

Ch.U.I.4.




Here it sorts of implies that the usage of the terminology Chandas only came into existence after the act of Devas being afraid of death and hiding in the Vedic Yagna..so what was the terminology used to denote Chandas before the act of the Devas hiding in the Vedic Yagna?

Smt. Renuka,

If you see Ch. U. further, you will find that Death saw them in the rik, sama and yajus just as one would see fish in (shallow) water. Sensing this (that Death has found them out in the thrayee vedas, the Upanishad says that the gods entered into swara (swarameva praaviSan). The fourth Khanda of Ch. U. (1-4) commences with ऒमित्येतदक्षरमुद्गीथमुपासीतोमिति ह्युद्गायति तस्योपव्याख्यानम् (One should meditate on the syllable Om as the udgeetha, for one chants beginning with Om. Here follows its explanation.)

I therefore tend to view the gods entering the Chandases, swara, etc., as legendary stories and not historical statements. Having said that the gods covered themselves with the vedic meters and hence they got the name Chandases, the Upanishad writer forgets that if the Chandases failed to effectively cover and protect the gods from death, then the same applies to humans as well! Adisankara's bhashya explains this 'covering' in the following words:

देव वै मृत्योर्मारकाद्बिभ्यतः किं कुर्वन्तः? इत्युच्यते —त्रयीं विद्यां त्रयीविहितं कर्म प्राविशन् प्रविष्टन्तो वैदिकं कर्म प्रारब्धवन्त इत्यर्थः, तन्मृत्योस्त्राणं मन्यमानाः । किं च ते कर्मण्यविनियुक्तैश्चन्दोभिर्मन्त्रैर्जपहोमादि कुर्वन्त आत्मानं कर्मान्तरेष्वाच्छादयंश्छादितवन्तः।

What did the gods do who were afraid of death, the killer? This is being explained. They entered into the karmas laid down in the three vedas, that is to say, thinking as the vedic rites as the means to escape (from death) they began to perform these (rites). Moreover they did japa and offered offerings, etc. making use of such metres and mantras as are not used in sacrifices etc. and got themselves covered amidst the karmas. ...


It thus appears to me that what Ch. U. says is at best, figurative and an effort to push the story so said with the support of a special vigraha of the word chandas as छन्दसां मन्त्राणां छादनाच्छन्दस्त्वं.

The Ch. U. then goes on to say that the gods entered into the swara Om which is immortal and fearless and so therefore, the gods also became immortal and fearless.

Note: I have read somewhere that the syllable OM (a+U+m) actually signifies the male genital triad and that similar symbolisms had existed in many other ancient civilizations also, as either a remnant of an earlier period of phallic worship or as an actual usage during phallic worship having remained strongly in the minds of people and adapted to the changed belief systems in course of time.
 
Note: I have read somewhere that the syllable OM (a+U+m) actually signifies the male genital triad and that similar symbolisms had existed in many other ancient civilizations also, as either a remnant of an earlier period of phallic worship or as an actual usage during phallic worship having remained strongly in the minds of people and adapted to the changed belief systems in course of time.

LOL! This is news to me.

Trying to figure out which is A which is U and which is M and how can nasalization happen without the vocal and nasal apparatus for the AUM to be properly pronounced.

Well AUM is supposed to be union of Mind, Body and Soul..no wonder it is said that a male has his brains in his.....well never mind!

BTW Sangom ji..thanks for the detail reply about Chandas etc.
 
LOL! This is news to me.

Trying to figure out which is A which is U and which is M and how can nasalization happen without the vocal and nasal apparatus for the AUM to be properly pronounced.

Well AUM is supposed to be union of Mind, Body and Soul..no wonder it is said that a male has his brains in his.....well never mind!

BTW Sangom ji..thanks for the detail reply about Chandas etc.

I personally will not buy high faluting "Mind, Body and Soul" union theories, because even according to definition the body is different from the soul. But it is not only the male whose brain is supposed to be in his.....; the female also is often considered to have her brains in exact same location. Man at least was impartial because along with the Om, he also has written much about the Yoni mudra which I hope you are aware of.
 
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