A Self Evaluation- Are we brahmins Upper Middle Class- No is the Answer

[iyerr]

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Many iyer and iyengar matrimony asks and self evaluations in regards to the family status caught my sight. I always think if brahmins can ever call themselves to be part of upper middle class or rich do they belong there ? If we look at other communities, it is the people who have multiple streams of income , strong business and having multiple properties / assets classify themselves as rich or upper middle class.


The brahmin people who have made their living as an employed salaried class can never call them upper middle class. People who have a house, pension to support a normal living never belong to upper middle class. They must also not add the life style upgrade offered by the children to classify them in the new league. I really dont understand if people understand how the family status is defined.


Let us be honest people who have been working in bank or some public and private enterprises as mgrs or some senior level executives cant call them upper middle class. If they stop getting their pensions or kids loosing their job, majority of them will downgrade the lifestyle.


The upper middle class/rich in other communities travel in a premium economy class, stays in star hotels and pay the medical bill out of their own sources and have multiple sources of income

Am too a Brahmin a Business Man. All iyer iyengars please do an evaluation

 

[Muralidharan.Seshadri]

There is no defined criteria to split the Middle Class as Upper, Middle and Lower. But it happens in a typically Indian context. You can not compare Indian Middle class with an American Middle class for sure. If you are attempting to compare other Indian communities then a TamBram working as a Manager or VP or Project Manager in an IT compaany can always call himself Upper Middle Class. Many other communities do so too. But there is a difference though. You may see a Kamma Naidu or a Reddy in Tamilnadu, even though filthily rich, will live a very conservative low key life. But his counter part in Andhra will have a very flashy life. But Brahmins on the other hand, become bit flashy or bring in luxury items and live a better life. He will not certainly like to be seen as Low or Middle Middle class.

 

[apsarathy]

I don't understand what Mr.Iyer wants to say. All brahmins to be considered as lower middle class and to maintain a lifestyle suited to them? The parent could have been a lower middle class but having given the children good education and if they get good jobs and provide for the parents and family, are they are not to be considered Upper Middle Class? An infructuous post.

 

[Vaagmi]

Hi Iyerr,

First please define the classes. According to you what makes a Lower class, a middle class and an upper class? Then other things will fall in place.

 

[krish44]

It is quite true that due to nehruvian socialism the salaries of senior executives in govt were only 4 to 5 times of the lowest employees.Those who retired before 1990

received also meagre pensions.Only after more pay revisions in last 25 years the gap widened between senior executives and low level employee salaries. yet most have

not much left after educating and marrying off children except pensions and an old flat to live in.Though their children do well ,for old parents it is hand to mouth .

They can hardly called upper middle class. Most of them degrade their lifestyle after retirement. Many receive doles from well off children. They also serve as baby

sitters for grandchildren and earn their keep. This is the harsh reality of indian middle class executives.Those who are smart in putting away separately something for their old age separately

are lucky.But most are poor in finance planning . They over spend on marriages of children imagining to be of high status and take high loans for children education which drain their money.

India has a high cost economy now.Most are discovering that their savings are not worth much and are victims of high inflation over the years.They only have official status of being high level

executives-retired and they talk about the powers they enjoyed in work life.

 

[Muralidharan.Seshadri]

Mr.Iyer's views are not acceptable. What is his definition of Upper Middle Class?

 

[prasad1]

Vaagmiji,
There is no clear demarcation. It is an understanding.

Not going by the various definition of international agencies nor by the stupid logic that considers you very rich at 1.5 lacs a year as most indians are poor. Classes should be defined by the lifestyle possible with a set of income. Below are the income for a family of 4 (i.e. 2 kids in school) by the age of maximum 40.
Below poverty line: world bank says as of 2016 12.5% indians are below poverty line. I.e. earn less than 1.95 USD a day or approx 130 ruppes a day. They sleep empty stomach on hard days. A family of 4 for a year earning less than 50k a year. I.e. approx. 130 X 365 days.
Lower class: families who manage to prevent starvation and some form of roof over their head. Life is tough as no health facilities and sanitation is available. Few kids may manage to complete high school in government schools but that is not enough to get a job. They may buy second hand two wheeler or manage with a cycle. Family of four earning between 50k and 4.5 lacs a year. 50% indians belong to this class.
Lower Middle class : A family of 4 which can afford to rent a 1 bedroom house in low class areas of the city, buy and maintain a two wheeler or entry level hatchback on loan. car such as alto and keep it for 15 to 20 years. Provide food and education to kids in government college and cheap private schools. any other expenses such as watching movies in a multiplex etc is unaffordable. They buy entry level cellphones such as Moto E and go for vacation to places like khandala once a year. This lifestyle is possible with an inhand income of around 40,000 a month in indian cities such as Bangalore. An annual inhand income of 4.8 lacs. Only savings are 80c ie 1.5 lacs for tax exemptions. They manage to save some money for retirement. Hence lower middle class status starts at approx 6 lacs annual income.
Middle class: A family of 4 which can rent a 2 bedroom apartment in a average area of city. Buy and maintain a car such as Hyundai i10. Watch a movie in multiplex once a month and eat out at average restaurants. Dream to own an apartment but cannot. Go for vacation once a year to goa etc. Can buy branded clothes but not expensive electronics such as big tv or expensive cellphones. Can send kids to private schools but Cannot afford private engineering colleges in India. They manage to save for a decent retirement and kids wedding. They have an in hand income of roughly 75000 a month. I.e. minimum salary of 12 lacs CTC.
Upper middle class: A family of 4 which can buy and maintain a car in the C2 segment such as honda city. Or maybe 2 hatchback such as i10. Can think of buying a 2 bedroom apartment on loan in a average location in a city such as Bangalore. Or stay on rent in posh areas. Can send kids to good private schools and private engineering colleges. Can afford to watch movies in multiplex and eat in good restaurant's on weekends. Go for holidays to goa, Jaipur, kerela once a year. And Thailand, Malaysia etc once in 5 year's. They save enough for a comfortable retirement and lavish weddings of kids. This needs an inhand income of minimum 1.5 lacs a month. I.e. aprox 24 lacs a year salary before tax.
Rich class: They already own a house in a posh area not an apartment. In areas such as Jp nagar or jayanagar in cities like Bangalore. They have invested in real estate in multiple properties. They can buy and afford a entry level luxury car such as corolla altis, vw jetta etc which cost approx 20 lacs on road. Also have an extra hatchback/sedan for wife or kids. Eating at best restaurants of the city and vist best pubs etc. Can go for international holidays to Europe once in 5 years. Or luxury domestic holidays each year. Can send kids for higher studies post graduation M. Tech to usa. Etc. They save enough for the big indian wedding and a lavish retirement. This needs a minimum income of 3 lacs a month. Which means about 50 lacs a year before taxes. Successful professionals such as principal engineers in US MNC, VP in finance firms, director to many small business men. Millions of indians earn this much.
Elite class: they can afford to buy and maintain a entry level Mercedes, bmw, Audi etc. They own multiple homes which are of big sizes minimum 2500 sq feet plots in posh areas of city. Their kids mostly study abroad for graduation i.e. engineering or medical or mba in usa. They go for international holidays each year. They have multiple full time servants. They can afford international medical treatments. They eat out and stay in 5 star hotels. They save enough to pass a fortune to their kids. This is possible in minimum starting income of approximately 1 crore a year before taxes. I.e. approx 6 lacs a month inhand income after taxes. High level executives such as partners in big four, Director of big US software companies, Several business men. Lacs of indians earn this much. They are USD Millionaire. They are HNI i.e. high net-worth individual having million dollar or approx 6.5 crore to invest excluding primary home.
Crème de la crème: boy you have arrived! Yes you can show off now. Mercedes, audi n beamer is a gift for their 18 year old kids. They prize their Bentley, rolce Royce and maybach. They hire chartered flights for special occasions and fly business class bare minimum. Their homes have huge gardens , indoor pool and servant quarters. These guys are famous and popular in the community. They may not be big celebrities or billionaire but known to people by what they do. Money is not an issue power is what they seek. The club starts at One crore a month. Believe me guys there is no dearth of them in india. Every street in posh locality of metro cities you may find one. Big School owners, star hotel owners, famous jeweller's, builders, tv stars , CEO of MNC. Wish all paid taxes though. They are indias UHNI i.e. ultra high net-worth individual with investable money more than 25 crore excluding primary house.
Richie rich: this club starts at 100 crore a year income. Top whos who of india shahrukh , salman, big industrialist etc. India is home to 111 USD billionaire. The newest entrants are bansal brothers of Flipkart. Heard of big kerela jeweller's or mining reddy brothers. They are more than we think. Thousands of indians earn this much. No need to say about their lifestyle. They shape our countries economy.
Many may not agree to my classification and call it exaggerated etc. I respect your opinion but this is my personal view. Remember it is for a family of 4 with eldest member around forties.
https://www.quora.com/What-incomes-define-upper-middle-and-rich-classes-in-India


Majority of TB's that I know would fit in the middle class, and some may say they belong to Upper Middle class.

 

[vgane]

It is relative..If we compare ourselves with what we were 4 decades back we are upper middle class...If we compare ourselves with developed countries we are middle class

 

[prasad1]

Many iyer and iyengar matrimony asks and self evaluations in regards to the family status caught my sight. I always think if brahmins can ever call themselves to be part of upper middle class or rich do they belong there ? If we look at other communities, it is the people who have multiple streams of income , strong business and having multiple properties / assets classify themselves as rich or upper middle class.


The brahmin people who have made their living as an employed salaried class can never call them upper middle class. People who have a house, pension to support a normal living never belong to upper middle class. They must also not add the life style upgrade offered by the children to classify them in the new league. I really dont understand if people understand how the family status is defined.


Let us be honest people who have been working in bank or some public and private enterprises as mgrs or some senior level executives cant call them upper middle class. If they stop getting their pensions or kids loosing their job, majority of them will downgrade the lifestyle.


The upper middle class/rich in other communities travel in a premium economy class, stays in star hotels and pay the medical bill out of their own sources and have multiple sources of income

Am too a Brahmin a Business Man. All iyer iyengars please do an evaluation

If you are a business man or a good investor you can be easily an upper middle class, Rich, or even super rich in India,
Most of the TB here in USA can easily qualify as Upper Middle to Rich in USA even in retirement.
My experience is based on the couple and not on the contribution of the children.

But Mr. Iyer would you elaborate your post, I did not understand the message in your post.

 

[prasad1]

However, according to a Pew Research Center study last year, the number of people who can be called middle-class in India, in terms of income, stood at a mere 3 per cent. “Although the poverty rate in India fell from 35 per cent in 2001 to 20 per cent in 2011, the share of the Indian population that could be considered middle-income increased from 1 per cent in 2001 to just 3 per cent in 2011,” the report said. It added: “It is clear from these estimates that India did not keep pace with China in creating a middle class in this century.”

One reason for the inflated estimates of its size was the tendency of Indians to overstate their position. This is common. I have been to neighbourhoods in the capital where people’s lifestyles are far lower than those of the working classes in Europe and heard families living in slum conditions describe themselves as “middle class.” The phrase is a loose term used to denote anyone who is not living in abject poverty.

 

[prasad1]

Only about 1 percent of India's population paid tax on their earnings in the year 2013, according to the country's income tax data, published for the first time in 16 years.

The report further states that a total of 28.7 million individuals filed income tax returns, of which 16.2 million did not pay any tax, leaving only about 12.5 million tax-paying individuals, which is just about 1 percent of the 1.23 billion population of India in the year 2013.

Of the salaried people you must earn more than Rs 2.5 lacks for you to pay Income Tax. Most of the TB's are salaried employees.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Friends,

My message on the above subject posted yesterday has vanished when I tried edit for a minor correction. I find some one has given a "thumbs-up" for the post. Obviously the same has been done beore it vanished on the copy sent to his personal mail. I shall be grateful if a copy of the same is sent to me or re-posted in the Tamil Brahmins Website.

Thanks in advance.
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sowmyasubbaraman]

Organising Your Time
If you are considering making changes in your life, finding additional time often poses a problem. It could be that the changes you are thinking of making are to ensure you have extra time to:
 Spend with your family
 Spend on things you enjoy doing
 Devote to your work
 Devote to your education.
Whatever the reason, looking at how you spend your time will encourage you to think of ways your time could be managed more effectively, these include:
 Learning to say 'no' to works or requests that you feel are not your responsibility.
 Learning to delegate – sharing jobs can be fun and will leave you with more time. See our page, Delegation Skills.
 Making a ’to do’ list of tasks you need to do each day/week, ticking off tasks that you complete.
 Giving up things you do not really want or need to do.
 Identifying your high and low times of the day. Everyone has a time when he/she feels more or less energetic. Try to do the most demanding tasks when you have the greatest energy as you will do them more quickly, thereby releasing more time to spend on other things.
For many people their personal development will involve setting goals; these might be to change behaviour - as in looking at their time management - learning new skills or advancing their career.
Many employers are looking for the same sorts of skills. These include good communication skills, the ability to work as part of a team and the ability to learn – these are often termed ‘Soft Skills’. Beyond that the skills required will depend on the particular job.(I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO POST A NEW THREAD THAT IS WHY I PASTED HERE ....SORRY)

 

[krish44]

Senior citizens have surplus of time and deficit of money

Thanks still for your post

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Senior citizens who had invested in real estate wisely have benefitted a lot because of the rise in prices. People who constructed houses in T. Nagar Chennai have become crorepathis. In fact these people are richer than what they were when they were working.

 

[auh]

Many iyer and iyengar matrimony asks and self evaluations in regards to the family status caught my sight. I always think if brahmins can ever call themselves to be part of upper middle class or rich do they belong there ? If we look at other communities, it is the people who have multiple streams of income , strong business and having multiple properties / assets classify themselves as rich or upper middle class.


The brahmin people who have made their living as an employed salaried class can never call them upper middle class. People who have a house, pension to support a normal living never belong to upper middle class. They must also not add the life style upgrade offered by the children to classify them in the new league. I really dont understand if people understand how the family status is defined.


Let us be honest people who have been working in bank or some public and private enterprises as mgrs or some senior level executives cant call them upper middle class. If they stop getting their pensions or kids loosing their job, majority of them will downgrade the lifestyle.


The upper middle class/rich in other communities travel in a premium economy class, stays in star hotels and pay the medical bill out of their own sources and have multiple sources of income

Am too a Brahmin a Business Man. All iyer iyengars please do an evaluation

It may be wrong to generalize "brahmins" altogether in one "class" or the other without any proper data. Personally, I feel that brahmins are way too conservative with their money, but the present generation is changing the mindset.

I have found that most of the group that you say pay the expense from their purse tend to indulge in shady business practices... writing personal expense to company a/c etc... and hence the claim of paying from own purse may start from the ultra rich onwards.

 

[ramachandran girija]

After reading the post, let me express what i felt :-

I don't think we, the brahmins are classified as upper/lower class or what so ever. I opine that our goals are high and linked with god. Money alone is not the be-all and end-all. based on luxuries, do you think that a class stratum could be created? i don't think so.

Let us try to keep on doing our duties, surrendering our wishes to god, then, we will be content. a contented mind is only very important.