Anna Hazare arrested. Crowds swell in support. What will happen?

[Yamaka]

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Namaste Yamakaji,

I believe people have lost trust in Politicians (current lot hence in Democracy - Voting/Elections/Parliament) and have taken up Peaceful Protest (Revolt ?) similar to what we did for Independence against "our own" British Government.

I believe Anna(or Baba Ramdev or any Tom Dick Harry) Peaceful Protest (Hunger Strike etc.,) is not at all wrong. certainly, his "demands" can (may or should) be debatable, people can(may or should) accept/support/oppose his "demands" but I believe he(or anyone) should be given allowed to Protest Peacefully.

Only by Protest (against existing any form of government when people loose trust) things can be set right. Again, agendas/demands are always debatable/criticized/opposed but to "silence" a person/protest is dictatorship.

I have no idea about about "LoK Pal" so my comments/opinions are limited to "freedom of speech"(freedom to protest ?)

Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam

I always said that Political Activism is GOOD and it must be done peacefully in accordance with the laws of the land..

PM asked Anna to get permission from Delhi Police and act accordingly... Police Commissioner is afraid of Crowd Control and possible mayhem in the city... he wants to have manageable crowd.

Please recall what happened in London last week.... Crowd turned violent and burnt down public and private properties..

How can Anna control a political crowd which can attract very many anti-social elements?

Law and Order is Police issue: They will be blamed if things go wrong and people are killed and properties are set afire..

Today, Police has given permission to Anna to do it in Ramlila Maidan...

Let's see how things go...

Lokpal Bill must be debated and voted on it's merits... NOT because Anna has a Hunger Strike, which he can do... it's his Political and Civil Right.

People have their Rights too to their lives and properties! Police must protect ALL.

Stay tuned.

 

[ShivKC]

democracy and our constitution has already given whole hearted space for peaceful protests and strikes by its citizen. any one is free to exercise that right and protest even against the govt or p.m..

but, using that same fundamental right to hit under the belt of democracy & hijacking the basic systems of the parliamentary system, is something , a wrong doing on the part of anna hazare.

whether bjp or congress budges to these kind of black mails, beware,this can take our country to the dangerous situation, .

for eg, if deve gowda decides toe the style of anna, he can easily gather 1000 times more the mass in ram lila maidan, and black mail the PM to introduce a bill 'to stop the water sharing to t.n'.. how that would be?

when it come to executing afzal guru, parliament attack has been highlighted as attack on indian holy institution. how about anna's role in hijacking the same?

 

[Yamaka]

No body Knows that Anna Hasare was a Driver In Military.He came out of Military and Quit his job.After coming out of his job he spend the entire amount he got from Military ( towards settlement of his dues ) for the sake of his native villagers and he built modern amenities like Bath Room,Toilet etc.

The Congress is trying to De Fame such a Wonderful Person and trying to save Looters.

Once the same MMS said that Spectrum Raja need not resign and opposition is wantedly disturbing Parliament.

In CWG also he favoured Suresh Kalmadi and tried to save him.

In Adasrsh also he protected Culprits.

Now he is guarding Sheela Deikshit and illegal account holders of Swiss Bank.

If so how can a citizen of India have belief on PM.

Dear TSS:

All these cases are in the Courts actively prosecuted, as I understand.

A word about Dr. MMS:

1. He is not a politician - he was not aspiring to be one.. but he IS a world renowned Economists, most people including President Obama adore him for his expertise.

2. It's the Genius of Ms. Sonia Gandhi to ask him to be the PM of India. By this single act, she soared to be the King Maker - she just walked away from Power, such things never happen in World Politics (Yes, once Kamaraj did it).

Please ask the power hungry people of Advani, Sushma, Jaitley... they will tell you how difficult it is to walk away from the EARNED POWER.

3. Dr. MMS is a mild mannered, grand-fatherly figure - he wants to be a Leader delegating responsibilities to the Ministers, and expecting each to give their BEST possible efforts.

He is NOT a Task Master... kicking the read ends of Ministers.. He believes in Delegated Authority and Coalition Dharma.

4. Yes, many times he comes across as Weak and Disinterested in day to day politics.. but he is doing the REAL job of Growing the Economy so that the Pie is increased and people can have larger slices to improve their lives...

5. He is not a petty politician, I repeat.

Arun Jaitley says that PM must be More Active and Authoritative... well, when Arun becomes the PM (which will never happen, IMO) he can practice what he preaches...

Dr. MMS does not need the advice of the Opposition who is withering away on the vine!

Stay tuned.

ps. If you don't like Dr. MMS and UPA II, show it in the 2014 Election! Organize and vote people out!! What happens if UPA III comes to power again?

 

[suraju06]

Sangom in #37 in Anna Hazare……….(in quotes)

Friends,

I doubt whether Shri Anna Hazare can even now be considered to represent the aspirations of the "aam aadmi". I base this on the fact that even as of today, the Anna phenomenon seems, at least to me, to be a product of media-overhype, more particularly a few TV channels. Even the other predominantly regional channels have not yet started giving so much coverage to Anna.

Aam aadmi is fed up with the corruption in the country as he comes face to face with it every day in every walk of life. Anna Hazare wants corruption completely eradicated. If these two statements are true then Anna represents the aspirations of aam aadmi. To deny him this privilege would amount to closing the eyes and complaining that the world is dark. QED. For Media this is a long awaited moment. After repeatedly talking about radio frequency spectrum, the long forgotten CWG and the 1,76,000 crore mopping up, if the media has come to the conclusion that aam aadmi is completely lost in the maze of cell phone frequencies, the long list of alien sounding items in the purchase/supply list for the CWG and the number of zeroes that make up the loss in spectrum mop up, it is no wonder. The poor fellow (aam aadmi) has become disinterested in whatever is discussed by politicians in the TV shows. He knows but one fact –that the politicians are taking him for a ride and are making quick bucks for generations to come in their families. Many of the Regional channels are all mouthpieces of politicians and for obvious reasons politicians would not like the aam aadmi to wake up from his stupor and take interest in what is going on. Their mega serials and patti manrams are doing a fine job following this agenda. They wont touch Anna with a barge pole.

It is true that some of the highly educated and very well-earning youngsters, whom we may call the "upper crust gen-next" consider this as a very important movement and wish that it (the movement) results in the complete eradication of corruption from the whole of India. Plus the activists of BJP/RSS/VHP etc., may be actually participating in the various demonstrations short video clips of which are repeatedly televised in TV channels like CNN/IBN, HTODAY, TIMES, NDTV etc.

Youngsters taking interest in this matter is a welcome development. There is a complaint that Anna is not taking BJP into confidence.

There is no evidence to show mass involvement nor is there any guarantee that the media will not dump Anna and company if some other more juicy news item comes tomorrow.

If by mass involvement what is meant here is involvement of the workers in factories and the auto drivers on the street, it will come if the Govt. is adament about its stand with respect to corruption.

Besides all these, my question is, if we have reached such a stage that we cannot have any trust on one PM, and a few judges, in this vast country of >110 crores of people, who will trust the LokPal himself? Very soon complaints may be heard that the Lokpal himself has made thousands of crores

It is not as simple as that. We know that there was a judge who was to be impeached and when the matter came up before Parliament the move was dropped for reasons which were political.(I am not talking here about Soumitra Sen). So whether it is PM or Chief Justice the position should be subject to scrutiny if there are complaints and there is a prima facie case for suspicion. Checks and balances can be built in to take care of the frivolous complaints. We need not throw away the baby because the bathwater is contaminated.

So, let us not be adamant about the official draft of the Lokpal Bill but, may be, we can suggest a proviso to bring any other functionary, including the PM, within its ambit, through a simple majority in the Loksabha. Team Anna should think of such methods, instead of resorting to show its purported "might" against the govt., imo

It is the Govt. which is adament. A simple majority in Lok Sabha will be impossible for such a proposal because it has political implications. Anna Hazare is not mighty, at least not as mighty as Kapil Sibal or P.C. He fights for a cause and has caught the people’s imagination. If he fails in his effort it will be unfortunate for the aam aadmi as he will have to wait another hundred years for some one to come to talk about corruption.

 

[suraju06]

Shiv KC in #40 Anna Hazare……..(in quotes)

dear raju,
the basic foundation of any democratic setup is fixing the responsibility of law making job to those elected members (not on judges/public heros), since they are the only people who are believed/assumed to know the pulse of the people. that's why we call them legislators.

They are the only people who know the pulse of the people and that is why they sold RF spectrum like they were selling peanuts.

an elected member, he who represents our face in parliament, is supposed to reflect/incorporate our feelings while enacting any laws, and if he doesn't do, he may loose the election next time. that's how this system goes, unless you want another means of administration like aristocracy/meritocracy etc, where anna's ideas would fit well.

“Is supposed to” are the key words here. When he is not actually doing that what is the solution. Should we allow them 5 years time. That is too long a rope. Anna Hazare does not advocate another system. He wants the present system to change its ways of doing business. You know well that Lok Pal will be a democratic institution.

bribing under duress : there is no justification for any wrong, come what the situation the wrong is done. under duress or not , a wrong is a wrong. and our law is already clear, that bribe giving is equally punishable

Justified or not is not the issue for a certain behavior under stress. I disagree with you in this.

if you think, aam admi has lost patience, and anna hazare has become a gandhi to liberate them from corruption , you will go wrong again. sorry, they voted for it, and now they have to wait for another 3 years. will the same aam admi vote for anna, i doubt.

It is this supreme confidence-the confidence that there is no way of recalling them-that gives our politicians the courage to indulge in rank corruption. And you hold aloft this as a high ideal of democracy. I disagree. I believe the situation has gone so bad that we need action here and now.

btw,lok pal is nothing new, and anna is not a new found revolutionary her...this bill was first introduced 1969 and subsequently introduced in 1971, 1977, 1985, 1989, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2005 and in 2008, all failed to pass the floor test, which covered the ruling periods of all indian parties, which infers, 'this is what the aam admi thinks about that ombudsman'.

I wanted to quote this. You have made my task easy. Yes our parliament and our politicians failed in their duty by not passing the legislation despite repeated scheduling and all political parties have to share the responsibility for that. The aam aadmi is quitely watching this and many other games played by our shameless politicians-like whole sale purchase of MPs to remain in power, Accepting bribe to either say aye or a nay when a crucial bill/resolution is voted etc., Now he thinks Anna Hazare understands his agony and that he speaks their language.

it all looks rosy, when we look it as 'anti corruption' at first sight. the real difficulty is to implement all of anna's demands under a democratic set up, esp in a country where 45% have at least once in a life time paid bribes

There will be difficulties. But they can be got over.

as aruna roy, the magsaysay award winner put it “vesting jurisdiction over the length and breadth of the government machinery in one institution (lok pal) will concentrate too much power in the institution, while the volume of work will make it difficult to carry out its tasks"

This is not a sufficiently strong reason to drop the idea.

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Anna Haazare- a new icon for India

The govt has now withdrawn strategically. May be many tricks hidden under sleeve.

Indian youth proved the point, ultimately people are supreme.

An unprecedented participatio of youth, who now understand the tricks of the corrupt political chameleons .Anna Hazare has given his message that the fight for the strong Pal Bill will continue till achieved. This is an opportunity. Now or Never.

Pending and pushing since 1965.The peoples representatives hiding behind the safe corridors of parliament exploiting the lack of provision to recall the MPs eventhough they lost confidence of the people.

"Anna nahin,Aandhi hai

Aaj ka Mahatma Gandhi hai'

(He is n not just Anna he is a storm; He is today's Mahatma Gandhi.

What a scene to see ntional flag in so many hands and chant of Bharat Mata ki Jai. Reenacting ssecond freedom struggle.


Vande Mataram.

 

[ShivKC]

Shiv KC in #40 Anna Hazare……..(in quotes)

1)They are the only people who know the pulse of the people and that is why they sold RF spectrum like they were selling peanuts.

2)Should we allow them 5 years time. That is too long a rope.

3)You know well that Lok Pal will be a democratic institution.

you are perfectly right in your first point. but who are they? who are those M.P and MLA, other than the once chosen by us, from among us? they are noting but the reflection of the weighted average indian citizens. their nature of corruption reflects average indian's corruptive nature, for which i have referred transparency international data which says "45% indians have first hand experience in bribe giving'. what we need more is a social change, not legal change.

do you know, our tobacco giant ITC's top line growth has only increased in the last years, in spite of implementing the smoking ban on public places?

in our system, no m.p or pm can take the 5 years term as granted. haven't you seen JJ stepping down and give way for o.pannerselvan when injustice was pointed out. right now two cabinet misters are cooling their heels in tihar jail. even p.m cant take it as granted his term, nor the president. they call can be impeached by the parliament voting. its not a long rope here, the systems are well in place, its for the people to change, the society to change.


Lok pal model is definitely a democratic institution. no second thought about it. but the way, its trusted in to the throat of parliament is what i call as un-democratic.

have look at this link, what the govt draft says, and what Anna's team wants. keep in mind the practicality / enforcement / confusions/negative impact it would make, which may even lead to the collapse of the administrative system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Lokpal_Bill

 

[Yamaka]

To ALL Anna Hazare's Thamis and Thangais:

Assume that Anna continues his Hunger Strike for 15 days or more... and many of you follow suit... and there's no serious law and order problem in the country.

And, the Parliament debates on BOTH Jan Lokpal Bill (to be introduced shortly by Varun Gandhi as a Private Member Bill, for which BJP has not given any official nod for their support) and Lokpal Bill submitted by the Executive Majority..

Assume that Jan Lokpal is soundly rejected by the Parliament, and Lokpal Bill is passed with needed majority... by both Chambers of the Parliament.

Then what will you do?

Will you keep continuing your Hunger Strike? Till mayhem breaks out in the country?

Please beware, MANY anti-social elements (from both the ultra Right, and the Maoists and others) are waiting for such moments to burn down the country!

What's your Grand Plan?

Waiting & watching...

ps. My real concern about bringing PM, Upper Judiciary and the MPs under the Lokpal Superstructure is, as pointed out by many CMs like TN CM J Jaya and Constitutional and Legal Scholars, this would unwittingly create an Unelected Parallel Govt foiling the function of the Elected Govt. This is massively counter productive and is Unconstitutional. Can Anna Team address this issue?

Besides, who will be elected or selected to this Lokpal Superstructure? Under what criteria? And who will supervise these Super Dupers? What will you do if they turn out to be the Biggest Mafia in Town? Are we not creating Super Monsters?

 

[Yamaka]

The govt has now withdrawn strategically. May be many tricks hidden under sleeve.

Indian youth proved the point, ultimately people are supreme.

An unprecedented participatio of youth, who now understand the tricks of the corrupt political chameleons .Anna Hazare has given his message that the fight for the strong Pal Bill will continue till achieved. This is an opportunity. Now or Never.

Pending and pushing since 1965.The peoples representatives hiding behind the safe corridors of parliament exploiting the lack of provision to recall the MPs eventhough they lost confidence of the people.

"Anna nahin,Aandhi hai

Aaj ka Mahatma Gandhi hai'

(He is n not just Anna he is a storm; He is today's Mahatma Gandhi.

What a scene to see ntional flag in so many hands and chant of Bharat Mata ki Jai. Reenacting ssecond freedom struggle.


Vande Mataram.

Hello Surya:

I hear you... can you please answer my post # 58 in this Thread?

Thanks.

Y

 

[kunjuppu]

i think all tamil nadu parties are lukewarm at most to anna.

also, there is no pro anna mass based movement in chennai or any other cities, let alone the villages.

it is mostly a north indian urban middle class phenomenon, who are probably disenfranchised or feel such, and have a chance to kick up some dust.

just my gut feeling. anna's fast i think, will be a la MK. ie fasting between meals

 

[Nara]

.... My real concern about bringing PM, Upper Judiciary and the MPs under the Lokpal Superstructure is, as pointed out by many CMs like TN CM J Jaya and Constitutional and Legal Scholars, this would unwittingly create an Unelected Parallel Govt foiling the function of the Elected Govt. This is massively counter productive and is Unconstitutional. Can Anna Team address this issue?

Y, from what I have read so far, this Lokpal is about investigating corruption and prosecuting the accused. In a way, this will be like a standing special prosecutor with a mandate defined and powers granted by the parliament.

So, I fail to see the two problems you cite, (i) parallel government and (ii) unconstitutional.

The functions envisaged for Lokpal is nothing new, these are already supposed to be carried out by the government. This Lokpal idea is to separate these powers and functions, from one arm of the government and vest them into another one, and then shield this arm from meddling politicians and the rich.

Like any other entity with power to accuse and prosecute, misuse cannot be eliminated. There are three points that address this issue, (i) Lokpal can only prosecute, it is the judiciary that will pass judgment, (ii) this judgment may be appealed all the to the supreme court, and (iii) the bill includes provisions to bring charges against any member of Lokpal.

For these reasons, I don't think Lokpal will be like a parallel government.

the second objection is about the constitutionality of Lokpal. I am no constitutional lawyer. But, I am sure if it is unconstitutional, those who oppose this bill will surely test it in the courts if it becomes law. But, as a layman, if EC is constitutional, why not Lokpal? In as much as this entity will be formed based on legislation duly passed into law as prescribed by the constitution, I would be surprised if such a law is found unconstitutional.

You know, the first Lokpal bill was introduced during Morarji Desai's time. Forty years have passed by and the lawmakers are still going at it. UPA is playing a double game, it wants the credit for passing Lokpal, but it does not want an effective functioning one. This is why they are trying their best to pull all the teeth and declaw this stuffed cat.

IMO, the key provisions that will make Lokpal effective are (i) suo motu powers to initiate investigation and litigation, (ii) whistle-blower protection, and (iii) nobody is exempt, not even the PM. You take away any one of these provision, and you end up with a "pal" with no பல், which is worse than having no Lokpal at all.

Corruption exists at all levels, but corruption at the top most levels of political and economic power is like a deadly cancer. If the top level officials are to be exempted, then, there is no need for another massive bureaucratic monster going after small potatoes.

Besides, who will be elected or selected to this Lokpal Superstructure? Under what criteria? And who will supervise these Super Dupers? What will you do if they turn out to be the Biggest Mafia in Town? Are we not creating Super Monsters?

Outlines of the answers to these questions are already there in the bill.

Members will be appointed by judges. The criteria for selection is not clearly spelled out yet, the language in the bill suggests the membership to include a broad cross section of the civil society. There are provisions in the bill to deal with over-zealous members and those who engage in wrongdoing. No, I don't think we are creating Super Monsters.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Y, from what I have read so far, this Lokpal is about investigating corruption and prosecuting the accused. In a way, this will be like a standing special prosecutor with a mandate defined and powers granted by the parliament.

So, I fail to see the two problems you cite, (i) parallel government and (ii) unconstitutional.

The functions envisaged for Lokpal is nothing new, these are already supposed to be carried out by the government. This Lokpal idea is to separate these powers and functions, from one arm of the government and vest them into another one, and then shield this arm from meddling politicians and the rich.

Like any other entity with power to accuse and prosecute, misuse cannot be eliminated. There are three points that address this issue, (i) Lokpal can only prosecute, it is the judiciary that will pass judgment, (ii) this judgment may be appealed all the to the supreme court, and (iii) the bill includes provisions to bring charges against any member of Lokpal.

For these reasons, I don't think Lokpal will be like a parallel government.

the second objection is about the constitutionality of Lokpal. I am no constitutional lawyer. But, I am sure if it is unconstitutional, those who oppose this bill will surely test it in the courts if it becomes law. But, as a layman, if EC is constitutional, why not Lokpal? In as much as this entity will be formed based on legislation duly passed into law as prescribed by the constitution, I would be surprised if such a law is found unconstitutional.

You know, the first Lokpal bill was introduced during Morarji Desai's time. Forty years have passed by and the lawmakers are still going at it. UPA is playing a double game, it wants the credit for passing Lokpal, but it does not want an effective functioning one. This is why they are trying their best to pull all the teeth and declaw this stuffed cat.

IMO, the key provisions that will make Lokpal effective are (i) suo motu powers to initiate investigation and litigation, (ii) whistle-blower protection, and (iii) nobody is exempt, not even the PM. You take away any one of these provision, and you end up with a "pal" with no பல், which is worse than having no Lokpal at all.

Corruption exists at all levels, but corruption at the top most levels of political and economic power is like a deadly cancer. If the top level officials are to be exempted, then, there is no need for another massive bureaucratic monster going after small potatoes.


Outlines of the answers to these questions are already there in the bill.

Members will be appointed by judges. The criteria for selection is not clearly spelled out yet, the language in the bill suggests the membership to include a broad cross section of the civil society. There are provisions in the bill to deal with over-zealous members and those who engage in wrongdoing. No, I don't think we are creating Super Monsters.

Cheers!

Dear N:

AFAIK, today

Lokpal (LP) Bill is already in the Parliament awaiting the debate, amendment(s) and voting.

Jan Lokpal (JLP) is not... the Opposition NDA has not sponsored it as their Bill (although Varun Gandhi says that he is taking it up as Private Member Bill.. wait and see for its actual tabling).

And Team Anna is blackmailing the Govt to introduce their JLP Bill in the Parliament by their Hunger Strike!

Ruling majority (and perhaps also the NDA) feel that JLP has legal and constitutional issues to be sorted out; hence they are not including items like

Sitting PM, MPs and the Upper Judiciary in th LP Bill.

My question to you -

Assume some Judge(s) appoint a Special Prosecutor (like Ken Starr) with lot of teeth and funds to play around.

This Special Prosecutor (because of some known or unknown agenda) indicts (on charges of corruption) and arrests the sitting

PM, all the MPs of the Ruling Party and all the Upper Judiciary (that he deems non-cooperative to him) and locks them up in Tihar till the case is heard and adjudicated in the Courts, which could take several months, if not years.

Some Judges (his friends) side with him.

The PMO, Parliament and most of the Upper Judiciary are grinding to a halt...Gov't is paralyzed.

Is this not against the Will of the People who elected the MPs who elected their PM who directly or indirectly appointed the Upper Judiciary?

The general issue appears to be the lack of Integrity and Professionalism in the police, CBI, ED and Judges that India could not effectively prosecute bribery, corruption and abuse of power using the existing laws on the books.

How will a Special Prosecutor with plenty of teeth and funds could accomplish it, if he or she does not have those attributes in the first place?

Cheers.

 

[tbs]

hi

Will introduce Anna's Jan Lokpal Bill in LS tomorrow: Varun



Will introduce Anna's Jan Lokpal Bill in LS tomorrow: Varun

coutesy sify

regards
tbs

 

[ShivKC]

anna's version of lokpal wants judiciary within in to its ambit. interestingly,its opposed by both the government and bjp on the ground that it would affect the independence of the courts.

 

[saidevo]

Today's 'The New Indian Express' reports that the conditions for fasting imposed on Anna and his team by the police include:

* Abide by the rules and regulations, and the crowd will not exceed the capacity of 25,000.

* If any clause of the undertaking is violated, they would be liable to be prosecuted.

* No damage would be caused to public property.

* No lathi or any other weapon will be permitted.

* No provocative slogans/speeches.

* Loudspeaker use as per SC order (10 pm limit).

Why shouldn't the police impose such undertakings when political parties take out processions and hold protests? That would go a long way in preserving order and sanity in public.

 

[tbs]

hi saidevom

political parties are modern days maha rajahs....no rules and regulations applicable to them....they are the rule breakers.....rules

and regulations are only for common man.....

regards
tbs

 

[T.S.Sankara Narayanan]

Congress is Struggling like an ant standing on a Hot Plate.It is struggling to Find a Decision on Anna Hazare.

People of India last their Hope on Congress.

They came to a Confirmation that Congress will never bring them Light in Their lives.

People have seen so many Gandis.All Gandis are Culprits.Indra Gandi, Rajiv Gandi,Sonia Gandi,Rahul Gandi,Priyanka Gandi,and I dont know the name of the Newly born Gandi to Priyanka.

All gandi's are Frauds and Looters.So far they have looted Crores and Crores of Money.

People waited patiently that at least Dr MMS,will do something for them.

The result is nothing.So they started joining hands with Anna Hazare.

The UPA failed to Bring back Swiss Bank money illegally hacked by Indian Politicians,even though Swiss Bank is ready to Release the Names.Cong is making a Barrier to release the names.

The Mr Clean MMS failed to Control his own Ministers because The Share on the Loot was said to have gone to the Accounts of Sonia and her family people like sisters.

Abnormal raise in Price of Essential Commodities.

MMS is not able to Control the Loot of his alliance parties because they never care about PM as a Share was offered to Sonia.

No body can console the Anger of People.So The anger Burst in favour of Anna as they feel that he is the only Right Person to Fight for them from the Looting Govt.

If somebody Loots them they can make a Complaint to Govt...
If the Govt is looting them , Where will they go ?

 

[sangom]

Maybe Anna's means are right or wrong is debatable on and on, but the ends are desirable or not. If one is not supposed to act like Anna, then we should all sit like lame duck like the PM and his GOM and the ruling PartIES. When the directive principles of our constitution were flouted one by one and by everyone like herded but wild cattle, the question of justifying the means does not arise. How do you think you will handle the next govt. whose members could be more fierce than this one. Sounding to oppose or just thinking of another method without one on the anvil, does not sound to be a positive approach. Please ignore the leader for the present but appreciate the goal he leads to in which we will all be benefited except perhaps the corrupt.

Shri Iyya,

Even if the people do not "sit like lame duck like the PM and his GOM and the ruling PartIES", as you have put it, there ought to be some convincing purpose for the uprising. Here, now, the Govt., is coming up with a draft Lokpal bill and the point at issue seems to be that the parliament should not consider that draft but take the one drafted by Anna and his team. And I feel for any change or amendment of that Anna draft bill also there can be similar "satyagrahas" and show of public support to those. In effect the elected govt., whether it is good, bad or indifferent or even worse than that, is being coerced into takking steps as directed by a group of civilians. This is coercion in a different way, imo.

If we grant this request now as valid, then in future, different interest groups coming up with different draft bills for various purposes and Parliament becoming a mere rubber stamp to affix its seal of approval to all those bills. Result will be utter chaos.

That is why I feel Anna & co., should not insist as if it is a முறட்டுப் பிடிவாதம் and calmly consider suggesting amendments to the Govt's draft bill. After all what for is Anna now fasting? Becasue the Govt's draft bill excludes the PM and the Supreme Court Judges AFAIK. Is it necessary to make such a prestige issue of this? Will this not weaken any future action on the part of the public in future? Kindly consider all these aspects and let us know on what grounds you justify Anna's latest fast.

 

[Nara]

...And Team Anna is blackmailing the Govt to introduce their JLP Bill in the Parliament by their Hunger Strike!

No Y, I just cannot think of Anna Hazare's protest as blackmail. If we did, then the civil rights struggle can also be likened to blackmail.

If JLP has constitutional issues, then they must be sorted out without making it impotent. If needed Constitution itself can be amended, Indians are not squeamish about it like the Americans.

Petty corruption, the kind we see in EB, is bad enough, but corruption and abuse of office in high places is hemlock to democracy. If the sitting PM, etc., are to be excluded, then there is no point in having an LP of any kind.

Assume some Judge(s) appoint a Special Prosecutor (like Ken Starr) with lot of teeth and funds to play around.

Y, you are asking me to assume quite a lot of stuff. Ken Starr was a power center unto himself, once appointed he couldn't be removed. But, in the case of LP, the power is not vested in one single member.

To accomplish what you suggest, this rogue member must first persuade a majority of the LP members. Then he must show probable cause to a panel of competent judges and persuade them to issue the necessary warrants to arrest "PM, all the MPs of the Ruling Party and all the Upper Judiciary", and then they can be thrown into Tihar.

Your view is, this scenario is quite possible if the rogue member has enough friends in high places in the judiciary. Based on this you think JLP is not a good idea.

My view is, this scenario is farfetched, too many obstacles to overcome, drumming up majority in JP and finding enough members of the judiciary approve. If this is anything more than mere possibility on paper, India would be a different country today -- Indira tried this, Indians will not acquiesce to such a blatant power grab.

Even I am wrong about this, the response to the possibility of this doomsday scenario must be to incorporate further safeguards and checks & balances, not surrender.

All decisions involve tradeoffs. We have to balance the good against potential bad. I think the probability of one or more rouge JLP member(s) colluding with friendly judges to bring the entire system to grinding halt is very low.

From what I understand reading the mandate Team Anna is demanding for JLP, they will have to obtain warrants for the actions you are asking me to assume. They cannot simply bring charges and throw PM or other high officials in jail. JLP will have the power to prosecute, but not judge. The LP proposed by UPA will produce a report which will promptly be made into dust collection device.


Will of the people is very hard to gauge accurately. It will change from issue to issue. IMO, the very reason MMS is negotiating with AH is because Congress/UPA suspects public support for AH. For example, there was another case in Haridwar, some young samiyar went on a hunger strike protesting just about the same stuff as AH, but he was let to die, why? IMO, the UPA did not see him as a big enough threat with significant public support.

So, IMO, MMS's calculation is that the will of the people in this issue is with AH. This is the reason his government is negotiating with him. It is not because MMS has more sympathy for AH's life than that other guy from Haridwar.

You make a good point about existing laws can be used to prosecute wrongdoers. Yes, that is true, but there is horrendous amount of bottleneck built into this system. Further, the independence of CBI is not above board. The case of a single member LP member pursuing personal vendetta that you described is not only possible, not only probable, but is true in many cases with the present state of the law and law enforcement. The ruling party can unleash the CBI with impunity against an opponent who had to be taught a lesson.

Therefore, in my view, the existing laws are useful to the party in power. For any meaningful challenge to corruption in high places, the investigative body must be independent, shielded from the whims of the political party in power, answerable only to the law, not to the party in power.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Nara,

My comments and doubts may be foolish even but what is not clear to me is why AH is fasting when GOI is considering a LPBill? Can AH & Co., not get suitable amendments suggested either directly or through the BJP MPs? Why this unreasonable obsession with "fasting"? To me it appears that AH thinks, probably, that he is a new version of M.K. Gandhi; if it is so, he must be sadly mistaken. AH has some support but it won't come anywhere near the mass movements of the original Gandhi.

In the end, we will have a very diluted and ineffective LP.

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

maybe AH is now a cranky old man on the verge of senility, with an inflated ego and high sense of self importance ?

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Sangom sir
If it is coercion, it is from the point of view of the ruling PARTIES and can also be called as unconstitutional considering that they are all elected components. They have taken oath and the ministers have all taken oath. What they have done is a total betrayal and flouted their oath. If the PM had taken necessary actions in proper time swiftly, nobody would have known Anna. I feel if Anna did not appear on the scene, the enormity of corruption would have crashed the entire computer systems in the world. According to the British, we broke every law to get independence, leave aside the final enactment.
Many would be cursing themselves not to have led this crusade. BJP, Ramdeo, the bandwagon was full. Before he became Lok Nayak, JP was in some wilderness and the Gujarat pupils and public came on the streets which paved way for JP's relevance. The government's idea or motive is not to include the PM and the judiciary as it wants enough elbow room in the governance. Of course it is a precarious condition but the non-governing government led us into it. If you expect the govt to accept amendments in parliament, what prevented them from accepting the draft bill. They could have voted out the unsavoury clauses with the strength of their majority. But here again the govt is perhaps apprehensive that the votes would put them into a trap. Politics produce government but the govt cannot play politics. It should go back and realign itself.

 

[Nara]

....That is why I feel Anna & co., should not insist as if it is a முறட்டுப் பிடிவாதம் and Is it necessary to make such a prestige issue of this? Will this not weaken any future action on the part of the public in future? Kindly consider all these aspects and let us know on what grounds you justify Anna's latest fast.

Dear Sangom sir,

I looked at the differences between Lokpal (LP) and Jan Lokpal (JLP). If JLP is a watchdog, LP is toy poodle. Here are some of the differences.

• JPL can initiate suo motu action, PL can only act on complaints forwarded by the Speaker of the LS or the Chairman of the RS.
  
• JPL can initiate prosecution, PL can do no more than send its reports to a "Competent Authority".
• JPL can register FIR, PL cannot.
• JPL can investigate PM, Judiciary and MPs with 7 members approving such investigation. LP cannot.
  
• JPL will protect whistle blowers, not LP

There are many other differences, some I support and others I don't. Some of what I cannot support are:

• JPL can impose punishment including imprisonment, LP cannot.
  
• JPL will have CBI merged with it, LP will not.

So, I think not jettisoning JPL and accepting PL is not முறட்டுப் பிடிவாதம் or prestige issue. IMO, accepting PL will be a betrayal to those who are supporting AH.

.... Can AH & Co., not get suitable amendments suggested either directly or through the BJP MPs? Why this unreasonable obsession with "fasting"?

I have no idea what the best procedural course of action is. I suppose AH does not believe any of these guys, who can blame him for it?

If we can be sure of one thing, it is that joining hands with BJP is not wise. BJP will milk the issue to its own maximum, but in the end will prevent the bill from becoming law. To me, both Congress/UPA and BJP/NDA are equally corrupt. Any doubt will easily go away if we go through the Indian and Pakistan Wiki Cables.

So, if AH thinks the best strategy to keep the heat and make MMS give JLP a vote is to go on a fast, then I am willing to give him my vote of confidence.

To me it appears that AH thinks, probably, that he is a new version of M.K. Gandhi; if it is so, he must be sadly mistaken. AH has some support but it won't come anywhere near the mass movements of the original Gandhi.

I don't know much about the man AH. One has to be a little narcissistic to be a politician. So, I am not worried if AH entertains grandiose visions of himself. My hope is he believes in his own vision long enough to JPL passed. I am sure Congress and BJP are already collecting dirt on AH that can be used to neutralize AH.

In the end, we will have a very diluted and ineffective LP.

Right from Nehru's time, Indian Parliament was only a rubber stamp. Policies get made at the highest levels of political power, and any MP voting outside the party-line cannot hope to be back. So, we already have a diluted and ineffective LP. This is why direct public action is the only truly democratic option available for influencing public policy.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Kunjuppu,

I feel AH has been made to feel very big about himself by media manipulation, primarily.

Shri Iyya, Shri Nara,

I am not a supporter of Cong I nor am I favouring a corrupt govt. But my simple doubt is, after having read Shri Nara's post # 73 above, which gives the major differences between LPB and JLPB, I still feel that AH & Co., should have first widely circulated these vital differences to the public, and demanded that the draft LPB should incorporate these changes. Instead of such an issue-based approach, I feel AH and his followers are merely gloating on the publicity and the pretended importance being given to them. They just want the Parliament to simply pass the draft bill prepared by them.

I am apprehensive that if this ends up as a grand farce, to which it seems to be heading, this country will never again see any worthwhile public uprising for good causes. In short, if AH ends up like Baba Ramdev, that is the end of all hopes and ultimate victory for the corrupt politicians.

 

[talwan]

Hello Yamakaji,
You are right in saying that Parlimentary system should deal on this Issue(lokpal)and not by Individuals.But this parlimentary System is dragging this issue for so many years(i think more than 40 years).Then somebody needs to make politicians,parlimentary system do its job.
Alwan