Are missionaries alone to be blamed?

[sangom]

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To all members,

Shri Praveen has closed the previous thread titled "Missionaries are to Blame". I was about to post this message in that thread when the closure message was displayed. Still, I feel my post has some relevance and have started this new thread as suggested by Shri Praveen. It is now for all of us to ensure that this thread does not "sink" because of our attitudinal orientations and insensitivity to others' feelings.

My views on religious conversions from hindus and into Christianity in particular are as given below (these were typed in the context of the earlier thread):

Allow me to say that there is a great amount of miscommunication and misunderstanding which has given rise to this ongoing verbal duel. Since I know both RVR and HH for sometime now, I am sure this is natural one arising out of their respective pov.

HH tried to state that some negative aspects exist/existed in hinduism also. May be those were in the long past and not any longer now, except the core caste consciousness. RVR wanted the thread to expose only the present day proselytization efforts of the Christian Missionaries and the various techniques they adopt in achieving their goal; that the negatives in hinduism should not form a part of the discussions here, he feels. I suppose Shri Shrikrish also subscribes to this latter view.

The problem comes when, for people like me, HH and may be some others also, the whole hindu land presents itself as virgin, highly fertile area to the proselytizers because of the presence of the vast Dalit population who, as a class, do not nurture any significant empathy or belonging to either hinduism or the higher castes, including the sudras who claim themselves to be higher than the Dalits. This field position remains very much unchanged, unprotected and undefended or uncorrected, as it were, while we are merely trying to expose the activities of the missionaries. This is quite similar to a farmer who is incapable of protecting his land, but chooses to wail when someone else, who is shrewd and bold enough, comes brazenly and starts tilling the wailing farmer's fields, sows and reaps the harvest too and thus takes possession of the lands.

If we only understand this basic truth at the ground level, I think, we will not be spending our energy fighting here about why the negatives of hinduism are vitally linked to the missionary activities for conversion.

There was an opinion expressed; the missionaries are trying to break the internal cohesion of the brahmins. I would say that the brahmins have had very little cohesion as a community from historical times. So, there has been no great impediment to conversion of the lower castes because of opposition from brahmins' united strength. Now, when there is some feeble awareness for the need for such brahmin unity, the rapid inflow of the modern ways of living is making many among us to even doubt the need for continuing as brahmins any longer and such people are happy to be world citizens.

Hence, it is all quite OK to expose the activities of missionaries here in this forum or anywhere else. But it will serve no better than as a running commentary of what is going on and may benefit the missionaries more (it will be like the internal communication of the defending army in the hands of the invading army) than us, and will not be an effective strategy to counter those activities, IMO.

Learned members may ponder over and decide.

 

[RVR]

Sri Sangom Sir,

Thanks for opening this new thread and also expressing your views.

First of all, I would like to make it clear that Hinduism is the name given to us by people who are outside our fold.

There are several languages and castes within India. One thing which is common to all is Sanadhana Dharma, i.e. accepting multiple philosophies, practices and way of life. Each caste has its own identity, philosophies and practices. Azhwars and Nayanmars belonged to varied castes. If you look at 63 saiva saints, you can see a dhobi, a pot maker (குயவர்) and various other castes. Nandanar and Thiruppanazhwar are suppose to belong to the so called untouchable castes. In most of the big sivan temples in Tamilnadu, we have all the 63 saints and we worship all of them without any discrimination.

But attempts were made by few people in this forum to bring Brahmin vs Daliths issue repeatedly which is not the case at the ground level right now. Personally daliths visits my house regularly and are taking food with me in the same table. I have also stayed at a dalith's house at Coimbatore and taken food at his house. I am born and brought up at a pure agraharam but things have changed dramatically in the last few decades. I am sure some of our members here would have had similar experiences.

Whatever discrimination which is prevailing today is mostly happening in the villages and that also in a few pockets only. I am sure with better literacy and human development, things will change in the future.

Unfortunately some members here are trying to magnify these issues instead of attempting to unite people. Missionaries are very much interested in keeping the differences alive so that they can fish in troubled waters.

I have already opened a thread ` Let us adopt the best practices from various other societies'. I wish everybody contribute productively by suggestng good practices.

In the recently closed thread on `missionaries to blame', Sri Kunjuppu and me discussed the present education system in India which is spoiling the younger generation. There was absolutely no ill feeling between us and we discussed at least the problem portion in detail. Implementation of the solution is a big task as the missionaries have already done enough damage.

India has the lowest divorce rate in the entire world and probably other societies can learn from us by adopting arranged marriage practices.

I wish we turn the forum to positive aspects instead of hanging on to negative thoughts.

All the best

 

[aramakrishnan1]

I had spent around 9 months in South Nigeria. This region is rich in hydrocarbon reserves and it is a Christian majority region. I found hundreds of different Christian missionary organisations with unique mission names. Each mission / ministry name differs from the others. Due to the effect of such missionary activities, almost all the local nigerians lost their original tribal culture, names and language. All of them have a well known Christian name + their tribal identity name. I had a similar experience in Beijing too, but I could not find many churches there. Even in Beijing, most of the females in my office had their twin names, one from their chinese side and a familiar Christian name.
It is not only India, the church is expanding and growing in all parts of the world. The worst part of Christian missionaries is that they do not follow much of ethics or morality in doing conversion. If they had read a story from Hindu Purans, then they sit and analyse how to twist and present to make the Hindus feel shy of their belief. Every one of us must have come across the numerous handouts / leaflets leading us to the "New Testament". In such leaflets, they present a twisted Hindu story and make the common Hindus bow their head.

 

[aramakrishnan1]

The powerful and rich church organisation is continuously on the mission of selling the Gospel throughout the world. They have enough money to build a school, a hospital or college in a remote locality and they depute dedicated clergy - the Fathers and Nuns.
Sanathana Dharma did nothing of the sort mentioned above. The cream of our faith / beleif system is the Vedas and the knowledge engrained in them. The Brahmin community is said to have mastered the Vedas through the traditional Gurukula system of education. I find only a handful of Masters of Vedas in our entire society. When you have just a handful, then when and where are we going to reach our gospel to our own Hindus. The learning of Vedas does not land a person in lucrative jobs, so there are no takers even amongst Brahmins. If Brahmins don't take the learning of Vedas and adopt the best Sadhvic practices, then who are remaining in the Hindu society to perform all these "Hindu Missionary" activities. The Christian Missionaries are at least sincere in working for their objective. But our Hindu society, especially Brahmins has not attempted to expand the Sanathana Dharma region, but even failed to retain it within India. I do not know anything beyond my daily Sandhya Vandanam and I know a little meaning of what I am saying every day. What can we do to retain Sanatana Dharma in India ? I don't have any hope except God.

 

[happyhindu]

Sangom Sir,

Thankyou for your thoughful and insightful post.

Indeed my stand is that merely bashing missionaries cannot result in countering them. If we were to close one eye for a selective view, it wud be like burying our head in the sand.

However, it appears that a particular member the first to answer has already decided the basis why missionary activities exist and grow. The vision is myopic.

This forum is basically not meant for solutions, for they are difficult to implement. It is meant for missionary-bashing, DK-bashing, politician-bashing, and bashing of all forms. Anything is acceptable, as long as it does not require us to take a clear unprejudiced look at ourselves.

And even if we take a look at ourselves, it is cursory (just to placate our primal 'ego' perhaps). Our vision remains so myopic that we are unable to look beneath the gloss on the surface, because we do not want to.

Being sensitivite to others means 'just stay quiet and nurse the egos of the others' (although the ego stems from a hole that neither has basis nor grounding). And it is unfortunate that the charity work gets mentioned in unrelated unconnected places.

Methinks therefore discussions may not be worthwhile. However, am giving it a try and putting forth my thots below.

To counter missionary activity, there is indeed a lot that can be done. The historicity of christianity depends majorly on proving that christ is the only true god and the rest are false gods. The doctrine was created by paul, although he was not considered an apostle originally. The religion itself has no grounding and is baseless. The only reason they succeed is because of the caste system.

Strictly speaking from the uttaramimansa view, all the alwars and nayanmars wud be considered brahmins. It is a fact that social categorization of the popular kind belongs to the purvamimansa school.

In fact (imo) right from the dawn of hindu history, folks of the purvamimansa school, who called themselves followers and beleivers of the vedas, are the ones who created varieties of social problems -- all just to maintain their social status quo. And also bcoz their living depended on it. However, today that is not the case. There are other career options.

In the past, the sages (either hindu, jain or buddhist) wud impress upon a king . If the king converted, his subjects also tended to convert. In this way 'conversions' took place. But today we are in a democracy, where every man feels free to live anyway he himself wishes to. So to counter missionary activity, the hindus also need to go to the people.

It might be a good idea to acknowledge and accept the problems within our own religion to begin with, and find ways to mitigate them, if they are present to this day.

The first step wud be to acknowledge that lower castes were not treated well in the past. We cud do ourselves a favor, by not denying the ill treatment meted out to them in the past. For it is like rubbing salt in their wounds. We cud also skip the need in us to shrug it off by comparing untouchability with the social system in japan, slavery system of europe, and what not.

The next step wud be to give them the freedom to join any faith within the sanatana, even if it includes vedic studies (if they show the inclination and the ability, that is). This is where i think most discussions reach a bottle neck.

Shri RVR calls himself a brahmin, but he is a manufacturer and trader. Certainly he has not inherited the proclivities expected of a brahmin. Instead he is very much a vaishya. He has inherited the innate proclivity (varna) to make a living from manufacturing and trading activities.

Folks need to realise that if they 'quit' their traditional occupations, automatically they create vacancies which will be eventually filled by others. If a person of 'NB-origin' fills the vacancy there should be no grumbling about it. Nor any opposition to it.

Folks also need to realise that they cannot be considered brahmins anymore if they do not live the kind of life prescribed for them as per the dharmashastras. There should be no hypocricy regarding this.

But are brahmins willing to allow varna crossovers ? Are people willing to enumerate themselves in census, caste-certificates, etc as per their current occupation? I doubt it. This is despite the fact that popular past commentators on smrithis, like medhatithi approved of varna-crossovers. So instead of the blaming the shastras, missionaries, or anything else, we need to blame our own selves really..

Whatever i have expressed here are my personal views. Me feels there is no need to take "pride" in any religion, sanatana included. A little less passion, a little less egos wud go a long way in helping to create harmony in the various sanatana faiths / paths....it starts with nowhere but ourselves first. Me included.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

The powerful and rich church organisation is continuously on the mission of selling the Gospel throughout the world. They have enough money to build a school, a hospital or college in a remote locality and they depute dedicated clergy - the Fathers and Nuns.
Sanathana Dharma did nothing of the sort mentioned above. The cream of our faith / beleif system is the Vedas and the knowledge engrained in them. The Brahmin community is said to have mastered the Vedas through the traditional Gurukula system of education. I find only a handful of Masters of Vedas in our entire society. When you have just a handful, then when and where are we going to reach our gospel to our own Hindus. The learning of Vedas does not land a person in lucrative jobs, so there are no takers even amongst Brahmins. If Brahmins don't take the learning of Vedas and adopt the best Sadhvic practices, then who are remaining in the Hindu society to perform all these "Hindu Missionary" activities. The Christian Missionaries are at least sincere in working for their objective. But our Hindu society, especially Brahmins has not attempted to expand the Sanathana Dharma region, but even failed to retain it within India. I do not know anything beyond my daily Sandhya Vandanam and I know a little meaning of what I am saying every day. What can we do to retain Sanatana Dharma in India ? I don't have any hope except God.

Sri Ramakrishnan,

Definitely we have to do some thing to the society. Already Ramakrishna Mission is doing an extremely good job in rural India through schools and hospitals.

Personally I am associated with the following organisation which is doing a wonderful job in rural India. They are planning to open atleast 100 schools and hospitals within the next five years.

AIM for Seva

I wish other organisations also follow the same practice and clean up education from the clutches of Missionaries.

I wish our members here also associate with a local charitable unit near their residence and do some service to the society.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Charity is a duty required of every human on earth. There is no need for a man to feel pride in giving. It is the rent we pay for our room on earth. Which can be paid either as labor (physical work) or in kind (monetary assistance). It also a fact that those who associate with charity and charitable organisations usually do not publicize it. That however does not mean that they do not involve in charity in any form.

 

[ShivKC]

Charity is a duty required of every human on earth. There is no need for a man to feel pride in giving. It is the rent we pay for our room on earth. Which can be paid either as labor (physical work) or in kind (monetary assistance). It also a fact that those who associate with charity and charitable organisations usually do not publicize it. That however does not mean that they do not involve in charity in any form.

Sh.happyhindu, a very good point. A rent we pay for our room on earth.


To Sh.RVR,

few days ago, I have gone through many of your posts and found you often self trumpeting about your social services. you have done a good job, but I am only afraid, that a true man of service to the community should not blow horn in public about his services. Services are not to be advertised. Have you seen any Muslim talking about their 10% donations or sikh,missnary advertising about their services? Any advertised service is noting but just another form of business on tangible assets. It could be a business to earning or refine one's self image in public, like those who advertisements of giving Wheel-chairs to handicapped followed by a half page photograph in front page of Dinathanthi news papper. sir, a request, please donot take my comments as personal.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Shiv Sir,

Greetings. With due respect to your message, I see Sri. RVR's mention about charity work as a promotional work for such charitable trusts/organisations. It may encourage more people to get involved in charitable work.

Sow. Sri. Happy Hindu and Sri. RVR,

Greetings. Kindly ease off, please. This forum can not afford fights amoung members. As senior members, kindly set examples for junior members, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangom Sir,

Thanks for opening this new thread and also expressing your views.

First of all, I would like to make it clear that Hinduism is the name given to us by people who are outside our fold.

There are several languages and castes within India. One thing which is common to all is Sanadhana Dharma, i.e. accepting multiple philosophies, practices and way of life. Each caste has its own identity, philosophies and practices. Azhwars and Nayanmars belonged to varied castes. If you look at 63 saiva saints, you can see a dhobi, a pot maker (குயவர்) and various other castes. Nandanar and Thiruppanazhwar are suppose to belong to the so called untouchable castes. In most of the big sivan temples in Tamilnadu, we have all the 63 saints and we worship all of them without any discrimination.

But attempts were made by few people in this forum to bring Brahmin vs Daliths issue repeatedly which is not the case at the ground level right now. Personally daliths visits my house regularly and are taking food with me in the same table. I have also stayed at a dalith's house at Coimbatore and taken food at his house. I am born and brought up at a pure agraharam but things have changed dramatically in the last few decades. I am sure some of our members here would have had similar experiences.

Whatever discrimination which is prevailing today is mostly happening in the villages and that also in a few pockets only. I am sure with better literacy and human development, things will change in the future.

Unfortunately some members here are trying to magnify these issues instead of attempting to unite people. Missionaries are very much interested in keeping the differences alive so that they can fish in troubled waters.

I have already opened a thread ` Let us adopt the best practices from various other societies'. I wish everybody contribute productively by suggestng good practices.

In the recently closed thread on `missionaries to blame', Sri Kunjuppu and me discussed the present education system in India which is spoiling the younger generation. There was absolutely no ill feeling between us and we discussed at least the problem portion in detail. Implementation of the solution is a big task as the missionaries have already done enough damage.

India has the lowest divorce rate in the entire world and probably other societies can learn from us by adopting arranged marriage practices.

I wish we turn the forum to positive aspects instead of hanging on to negative thoughts.

All the best

Dear Shri RVR,

There was one Nandanar but it is more of a legend and is not history. That we consider him as one of the 63 nayanmars does not make him to be a person who really lived. I am not aware of the historicity of the others belonging to the lower castes, to whom you refer to.

But I am much impressed by Shri Praveen's advice/remark, "wake up & smell the coffee". In that context let me try to convey how the coffee smells in the present days.

My father-in-law's kuladeivam is dharma sasta in their native village temple. It is now in Kanyakumari Dt., earlier, it formed part of the erstwhile Travancore State. The only major celebration - barring the usual daily pooja once or twice a day, depending on how sincere the pujari is - is on the mandala pooja day which is the 41st. day from kartikai first. What was an exclusive brahmin get together, poojas followed by a sumptuous feast in those days has now become a community feast including for the dalits who were not even allowed within the agraharam in those days. The dalits and others come towards the close of the poojas, just in time for the feast to start, eat in the first few batches and leave. The important thing is that the dalits and other lower castes have very little to do with the pooja part; even among those present during the "deepaaraadhanai", many do not show any outward response as is usual with others, like going in front of the sanctum, folding their hands, etc.

I have witnessed it once or twice. Their attendance is not due to any involvement in the religious part of the function, though there is complete equality for them at least in that temple and even the plantain leaves in which they eat, are removed by the brahmin men and women of the agrahaaram.

Meanwhile, conversion may be taking place and some of the people who come for the feast may well be attending churches also, but we have no idea about these. Any enquiry about these aspects will incite trouble and unrest only. Thus, they are unable to identify themselves as part of the community worshipping in that temple. It is this vacant place which the Missionaries are able to fill successfully and that is why they succeed in their efforts.

It may be true that dalits are coming to your house, eating along with you on the same dining table, etc. Similarly you may be taking meals in his house. Here, I have given you a real example of a whole village community eating together in a temple.
Yet, when it comes to the religious part of the dalit's existence, the hinduism of our type is not able to attract them, or may be we have not been able to make it attractive to them. The Christian and Muslim missionaries are able to do that. This is exactly what I have been trying to convey to our community as our greatest handicap.

If only we understand this it may no longer be necessary to dwelve on the ancient causes and brahmin Vs Dalit issue etc. But what have any of the missions including the one in which you take active part, done in this direction?

When we have educated our children under Macaulay's demoniacal system so that they will be well-off, how far will any attempt from our side, be convincing if we start prescribing a different pure system for the dalits? Is it not necessary to "walk the talk" and first canvas others (including brahmins) to send their children, grandchildren, etc., to the non-Macaulay system of learning?

RKM or many other missions may be doing work among the dalits. But I do not think any one of them has analyzed the need for providing the religious content to the dalits and that too not as a separate package doled out as charity but an inclusive effort in which all "sanatanadharmis" will be involved as equal participants irrespective of their caste, will have one form of worship and one or the same religious book/s.

No guru, no mission seems to have studied this aspect in sufficient depth and implemented it.

Perhaps if Shri Ramakrishnan gives us some more information as to how the Nigerian tribal people and the Beijing Chinese get attracted to Christianity, it may give us valuable inputs to think on a suitable programme.

Shri Ramakrishnan,

It is because our religious lore is so full of things which, if exposed, will make us ashamed, that the Missionaries are able to use them as effective weapons. As an example pl. read the story (somewhat obscene) of uparichara vasu, the grandfather of sage Vyasa, whom we hold in very high esteem.

inner traditions: A King’s Lust and the Birth of Vyasa’s Mother

It is therefore necessary on our part to either find convincing explanations for all such points; they are legion and it will be beyond human endeavour to do that. Or else, we can expose the equally ugly and undesirable aspects of the other religion; but are we prepared to do that?

The most appropriate method will be to study the psychology that drives these people towards religious conversions and then try to deal with it appropriately.

Shri RVR and Smt. HH,

Shri Raghy has already said it and I am only repeating it. Both of you wish well for hinduism or sanatanadharma, but your languages are different, so to say, and hence there are sparks flying like in a puranic battle. I request that we consider the topic only and not the personalities involved in the discussion and expressing their views, unless of course, we want Praveen to have a large stock of locks handy!

 

[sahana]

Personally daliths visits my house regularly and are taking food with me in the same table. I have also stayed at a dalith's house at Coimbatore and taken food at his house.

Shri RVRji and other Respected Elders,

Just because you have stayed in a dalith's house or eaten food and vice versa, does not mean the situation is any different. Maybe you had a need to do so, maybe they are working for you or they worked for you.

If the cat closes its eyes, it does not mean the world is dark.

Whatever discrimination which is prevailing today is mostly happening in the villages and that also in a few pockets only.

How are you so sure? have you done any survey?

just because the situation is different in your house or in your village or in your city, it does not mean that is how it is everywhere.


Please get a reality check before posting such generalized statements.

India has the lowest divorce rate in the entire world and probably other societies can learn from us by adopting arranged marriage practices.

While india might have the lowest divorce rates, the reason is more because the society as such is biased towards divorce women. Our culture is such that we do not accept divorces so easily.
how many women/men are unhappy in their marriage and dont want to do anything about it because of the fear they have towards the society and what it will say about them.

I have seen it firsthand as to what happens to a divorcee. The moment you turn your back, every tom, dick and harry starts talking about you.

 

[RVR]

Sh.happyhindu, a very good point. A rent we pay for our room on earth.


To Sh.RVR,

few days ago, I have gone through many of your posts and found you often self trumpeting about your social services. you have done a good job, but I am only afraid, that a true man of service to the community should not blow horn in public about his services. Services are not to be advertised. Have you seen any Muslim talking about their 10% donations or sikh,missnary advertising about their services? Any advertised service is noting but just another form of business on tangible assets. It could be a business to earning or refine one's self image in public, like those who advertisements of giving Wheel-chairs to handicapped followed by a half page photograph in front page of Dinathanthi news papper. sir, a request, please donot take my comments as personal.

Sri ShivKC,

I never said I am doing charitable work. I am only saying that I am involved with many charitable organisations who are doing wonderful service to the community.

Sometimes, people get confused as to how to get involved in charitable work. It is not necessary that one should get involved directly but get associated with organisations which are doing wonderful service to the community.

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

sahana,

in case i missed, welcome to the forum. i hope you will stick around and give us a perspective much lacking for want of quorum re your age group/gender (just a guess here, based on your reply)

with you, now we have a 25% increase, i believe, if my math is right...

once again suswagatham

 

[RVR]

Sahana,

My views are in blue.

Shri RVRji and other Respected Elders,

Just because you have stayed in a dalith's house or eaten food and vice versa, does not mean the situation is any different. Maybe you had a need to do so, maybe they are working for you or they worked for you.

If the cat closes its eyes, it does not mean the world is dark.

Here lot of people shed crocodile tears for daliths and other deprived communities.. When confronted with actual discrimination incidents, they just keep quite. When I gave an incident that `narikuravas were discriminated in broad day light at the center of Chennai City, there was no response in this forum. If they are really interested, they could have filed a writ petition in Madras High court through their lawyers and punished the concerned people so that the practice is avoided at least in the future. If they cannot do that, they should not write that it is the brahmins who are discriminating daliths.

I wrote my personal incident which I didn't tell so far and I am forced to do that today just to convey that I am not practicing untouchablity. I don't want to get any mileage of the same.


How are you so sure? have you done any survey?

just because the situation is different in your house or in your village or in your city, it does not mean that is how it is everywhere.


Please get a reality check before posting such generalized statements.

Bye and large I have seen throughout Tamilnadu that discrimination has come down drastically. I am also talking to my dalith friends from various parts of Tamilnadu and they are also confirming that discrimination has come down drastically but not yet fully eliminated.

Has anybody in this forum taken a survey and has contradicting results? If so let them publish it openly without making general statements.



While india might have the lowest divorce rates, the reason is more because the society as such is biased towards divorce women. Our culture is such that we do not accept divorces so easily.
how many women/men are unhappy in their marriage and dont want to do anything about it because of the fear they have towards the society and what it will say about them.

I have seen it firsthand as to what happens to a divorcee. The moment you turn your back, every tom, dick and harry starts talking about you

If you fear society that you will be looked down if you divorce, it is a great asset the society has built over generations. It is applicable to both men and women. I have been writing all along that in an arranged marriage the society is a party to the alliance and society will definitely intervene if there is any problem after the marriage.

I have personally seen incidents where there are initial hicups but after some time, both couple adjust to each other and live happily. When they get a child, the child is the binding force and both the parents are turned towards the child instead of their personal ego clash.

Happiness is in the mind and not outside. Our people are accustomed to adjust to the environment and make the alliance successful which is a great asset.
.

I wish the younger generation understands that parents who have spent their whole earnings, time and attention on their child will not do any harm to the child at the time of marriage. Let us build an environment where the arranged marriage is taking place with whole hearted consent of every body in the family including both the parents and children so that it is a win win situation for everybody. I have personally seen this happening at several families and there is nothing wrong in that.

All the best

 

[RVR]

Sri Sangom sir,

I am talking from field level. More than one fouth of the Tamilians and approximately one third of the Indians doesn't know how to read and write in their own mother tongue according to Government's figures.

If somebody asks for breakup of the illiterates, I don't have any answer. But I am just assuming based on my field level experience that these people belong to mostly Scheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims and girls

In a school where I am associated closely, we are seeing children not interested in learning. Mostly fishermen community children are studying in the school.

Unfortunately due to the influence of missionaries, we are forced to offer English medium in the school. It is difficult to change the medium of instruction since already the entire parents are brainwashed to go for English medium

If the students study just one language, i.e. their mother tongue, they would have mastered it without any problem. Probably some simple arithmetics would have empowered to a great extent.

Government at the center is imposing three language formulae, ie. English, Hindi and mother tongue.

Government of Tamilnadu is adopting two language formulae, i.e English and Tamil

At the end of the day, children of these deprived sections doesn't learn any thing including their mother tongue.

Macaulay Education system imposed on us by British and brainwashed by missionaries is the main problem.

Unless the education system is changed, it is very difficult to empower these children.

The damage which is being done by missionaries is the root cause of the problem.

Let better sense prevails among the enlightened souls in this forum

All the best

 

[sahana]

Shri RVR,

While i do not want to get involved in a one on one duel, let me address some of your replies

I am also talking to my dalith friends from various parts of Tamilnadu and they are also confirming that discrimination has come down drastically but not yet fully eliminated.

It is the Brahmins, Sir, who are being discriminated now. Maybe not as much as the Dalits who were subjected to such discrimination but still discrimination is discrimination.

As a elder, you are also at fault for the discrimination against dalits. Why didnt you stand up and fight for it? (i am sorry to be direct).

When I gave an incident that `narikuravas were discriminated in broad day light at the center of Chennai City, there was no response in this forum. If they are really interested, they could have filed a writ petition in Madras High court through their lawyers and punished the concerned people so that the practice is avoided at least in the future. If they cannot do that, they should not write that it is the brahmins who are discriminating daliths.

Why didnt you file a case? I am sure you are a gentleman of high stature, rather than waiting and waiting for others to do something, why didnt you take the initiative to do something about it?

It is very easy to pass the buck.
As Mr.Praveen said in the missionary thread, it seems like when it comes to walking the talk, you dont seem to be very keen.

Has anybody in this forum taken a survey and has contradicting results? If so
let them publish it openly without making general statements.

Again why are you expecting others? You posted a statement and you need to justify it. Not others.

the society is a party to the alliance and society will definitely intervene
if there is any problem after the marriage.

Is it so? I am afraid in the cities, it does not happen at all. Society just merely watches from a distance and passes comments and shares what to do, what not to do etc...

Happiness is in the mind and not outside. Our people are accustomed to adjust
to the environment and make the alliance successful which is a great
asset.

Happiness is def in the mind, but to claim our people are accustomed to adjusting to make a successful alliance is so darn naive...

If you fear society that you will be looked down if you divorce, it is a great
asset the society has built over generations.

Unfortunately it is just a stupid notion. How can you call it an asset when as an individual i cannot chose my own life?

You buy a sofa, after a few years if the sofa is broken beyond repair, you change it. You dont keep it and try to mend it and mend it.

its the same with life too. If after a few years, you dont love your husband/wife and think the relationship has run its course, why shouldnt one get a divorce and live alone or with someone they like (after mutually agreeing)

The society is forcing 2 unhappy people to remain in a relationship that does not have any meaning whatsoever, thus ruining both the lives and any others with them.

Unfortunately due to the influence of missionaries, we are forced to offer
English medium in the school. It is difficult to change the medium of
instruction since already the entire parents are brainwashed to go for English
medium

I am sure you have grownup kids. Did you put them in a tamil medium school? or english medium school? Why didnt u put your footdown and insist on them studying in a tamil medium school or for that matter an education in mother tongue?

Right or wrong, the world runs on english language... If the students do not learn english, they do not have any oppurtunity to compete with the wider world.

In a school where I am associated closely, we are seeing children not interested in learning. Mostly fishermen community children are studying in the school.

So, is this also a problem of the missionaries? If the children do not want to study, then its their problem.

The damage which is being done by missionaries is the root cause of the problem.

Macaulay Education system imposed on us by British and brainwashed by
missionaries is the main problem.

please, this should have been fought/discussed when the english occupied india. Not after 300-400 years... This is, in my opinion, a very very very lame excuse.

You are trying to find a fault at everything rather than trying to accept the facts and move on. People, like you, need to get a reality check and accept things as it is NOW and not try to cling on to yesterday.
What we have is today and Tomorrow...
Talking about ysterday is futile and senseless.

Accept change and move on sir.


I am sorry if this has hurt you.
But your views seem so so conservative of nature and as much as you say it elsewhere, you do not seem much at ease with change in general.

(apologize in advance) as an elderly gentleman, your generation is the reason why the situation has changed for the worse for the brahmins in TN.
If only you had learnt to accept and embrace change long ago, things would have been different.

 

[suresoo]

Dear Sangom Sir,
If a thread like 'Missionaries are to be blamed' can be subverted to invoke Manu, shastras etc etc and flush the thread down the tube, I don't know why you think another thread named
"Are missionaries alone to be blamed?" will be analyzed carefully and discussed without any emotions and name calling.

You had raised some useful questions in this thread, i will try and answer them if the thread remains open!!

thanks,

 

[sangom]

...You buy a sofa, after a few years if the sofa is broken beyond repair, you change it. You dont keep it and try to mend it and mend it.

its the same with life too. If after a few years, you dont love your husband/wife and think the relationship has run its course, why shouldnt one get a divorce and live alone or with someone they like (after mutually agreeing)

The society is forcing 2 unhappy people to remain in a relationship that does not have any meaning whatsoever, thus ruining both the lives and any others with them.

Smt. Sahana,

I am not here to contest the above views. But I would like to know what your views are about the child/children and their future - emotional as well as financial, in the case of such separations.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,
If a thread like 'Missionaries are to be blamed' can be subverted to invoke Manu, shastras etc etc and flush the thread down the tube, I don't know why you think another thread named
"Are missionaries alone to be blamed?" will be analyzed carefully and discussed without any emotions and name calling.

You had raised some useful questions in this thread, i will try and answer them if the thread remains open!!

thanks,

Very realistic view Shri Suresh! thank you.

 

[RVR]

Sahana,

My replies are in blue.

Shri RVR,

While i do not want to get involved in a one on one duel, let me address some of your replies



It is the Brahmins, Sir, who are being discriminated now. Maybe not as much as the Dalits who were subjected to such discrimination but still discrimination is discrimination.

Let them discriminate brahmins. Brahmins knows how to protect themselves

As a elder, you are also at fault for the discrimination against dalits. Why didnt you stand up and fight for it? (i am sorry to be direct).

I am not claiming that I am fighting for dalith's cause here. Please address this to those who claim that they are fighting for dalith's cause here.




Why didnt you file a case? I am sure you are a gentleman of high stature, rather than waiting and waiting for others to do something, why didnt you take the initiative to do something about it?

It is very easy to pass the buck.

Those who have been shedding crocodile tears here for daliths should fight for their cause. I never said I am fighting for dalith's cause.
As Mr.Praveen said in the missionary thread, it seems like when it comes to walking the talk, you dont seem to be very keen.
Again why are you expecting others? You posted a statement and you need to justify it. Not others.
Again those who are propagating intercaste marriages in this forum should walk the talk. I have already offered to arrange an exclusive swayamvaram function with narikurava community brides and bride grooms. Except Mr.Raghy, I didn't get any response from any other progressive members here. Only they have to walk the talk








Is it so? I am afraid in the cities, it does not happen at all. Society just merely watches from a distance and passes comments and shares what to do, what not to do etc...

Do you have any survey on this. If you have please publish it.


Happiness is def in the mind, but to claim our people are accustomed to adjusting to make a successful alliance is so darn naive...



Unfortunately it is just a stupid notion. How can you call it an asset when as an individual i cannot chose my own life?

You buy a sofa, after a few years if the sofa is broken beyond repair, you change it. You dont keep it and try to mend it and mend it.

its the same with life too. If after a few years, you dont love your husband/wife and think the relationship has run its course, why shouldnt one get a divorce and live alone or with someone they like (after mutually agreeing)



The society is forcing 2 unhappy people to remain in a relationship that does not have any meaning whatsoever, thus ruining both the lives and any others with them.
I already posted about an actual incident involving two street dogs in another thread. If any body wants to follow the street dogs, let them do it.

I am sure you have grownup kids. Did you put them in a tamil medium school? or english medium school? Why didnt u put your footdown and insist on them studying in a tamil medium school or for that matter an education in mother tongue?

Right or wrong, the world runs on english language... If the students do not learn english, they do not have any oppurtunity to compete with the wider world.

Educated and affordable parents can teach their children either directly or by engaging a tuition teacher at home. But poor and illiterate parents cannot do the same. I am not saying that such students should not learn English but they have to become fully literate and master their mother tongue. Once they master their mother tongue, they can learn any number of other languages. Unfortunately that is not happening and the students discontinue their studies without learning anything. Do you want them to discontinue their studies?



So, is this also a problem of the missionaries? If the children do not want to study, then its their problem.

Definitely Missionary education has spoiled poor and downtrodden people very much. If you feel that such children should drop out, I don't want to add anything further here.




please, this should have been fought/discussed when the english occupied india. Not after 300-400 years... This is, in my opinion, a very very very lame excuse.

India was one of the richest countries on earth before British invasion. But due to the exploitation of British, India faced biggest famines during 18th and 19th Centuries.

Famine in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India became one of the poorest countries at the time of Independence and is yet to recover from it. Off course post independence our politicians are also responsible for wrong policies.
You are trying to find a fault at everything rather than trying to accept the facts and move on. People, like you, need to get a reality check and accept things as it is NOW and not try to cling on to yesterday.

You please address this to people who are going beyond British period. I am talking only about British and subsequent period since I would like to see India regains its past glory just before British invasion.
What we have is today and Tomorrow...
Talking about ysterday is futile and senseless.

Accept change and move on sir.
One has to learn from the past mistakes and correct it now to move on. Past history has to be used as an experience for the present and future.


I am sorry if this has hurt you.
But your views seem so so conservative of nature and as much as you say it elsewhere, you do not seem much at ease with change in general.

I am not all hurt. All of us are continuously changing with the time. If you think that I am conservative, let it be. I have no problem.

(apologize in advance) as an elderly gentleman, your generation is the reason why the situation has changed for the worse for the brahmins in TN.
If only you had learnt to accept and embrace change long ago, things would have been different.

Personally I have experienced all the discriminations against Brahmins and my children have also experienced the same recently. All of us have learnt to live with this problem.

What fight our generation could have done against the mighty powers of the Government. Except learning to live with this discrimination menace nothing could be done as the elected representatives of the country pass all the legislations. Brahmins have little or probably no say in electing right candidates as they are a minority in electoral politics.

All the best

 

[ShivKC]

Sow Sahana, looking at the tone of your recital and knowledge of past track, writing style, and subsequent targeted pinning of Sh.RVR, by any chance, are you the relative of happyhindu? hope not a proxy

 

[hoover]

instead of worrying for the whole Hindu religion, full of anti brahmin NBs, we should care for our caste only. a person drowning himself should not care for someone standing on the ground. there are many forces standing to fight. helpless and armless brahmin should not jump in that bussiness. For how much time we will repeat that mistake to atract negative attention of forces ,thousands of time powerful, towards us. for nothing in return but icm of our girls, hatred and discrimination, second class citizenship and from not others but from those whom we say our hinuds. better we should care for our own communtiy. fourteen percent of world population concentrated on a geographical area is not going to disappear suddenly. and christianity is receding from europe and america. If god exist then obviously he is capable of creating the equillibrium.
Brahmin should not become contractors of Hindu welfare. themselves are in wretched conditions and they will not afford that. brahmin should use all their energies for brahmin welfare only.

 

[happyhindu]

Sow Sahana, looking at the tone of your recital and knowledge of past track, writing style, and subsequent targeted pinning of Sh.RVR, by any chance, are you the relative of happyhindu? hope not a proxy

ShivKC, i think i know who Sahana is (a long standing member using a proxy and copying my writing style, bcoz he does not want to offend RVR with his own handlename), but anyways, it is only a suspicion and i maybe wrong.

I request Praveen to check the IP address of Sahana and mine, and let ShivKC know whether they are the same or not.

Btw, are you not a proxy of Suresoo and Sesh?

 

[happyhindu]

Personally I have experienced all the discriminations against Brahmins and my children have also experienced the same recently. All of us have learnt to live with this problem.

What fight our generation could have done against the mighty powers of the Government. Except learning to live with this discrimination menace nothing could be done as the elected representatives of the country pass all the legislations. Brahmins have little or probably no say in electing right candidates as they are a minority in electoral politics.

You are a successful businessman who made his moolah and his fortune in tamilnadu, and yet you have been making claims that brahmins are living in fear, being discriminated against, etc in tamilnadu.

Please let us know what type of discrimination you and your children have faced.

 

[happyhindu]

The important thing is that the dalits and other lower castes have very little to do with the pooja part; even among those present during the "deepaaraadhanai", many do not show any outward response as is usual with others, like going in front of the sanctum, folding their hands, etc.

I have witnessed it once or twice. Their attendance is not due to any involvement in the religious part of the function, though there is complete equality for them at least in that temple and even the plantain leaves in which they eat, are removed by the brahmin men and women of the agrahaaram.

It is possible that the same people will sing carols the loudest when they go to a church and take part in festivities with keen interest. Perhaps they are visiting this temple only for the food. Perhaps they do not feel welcome to be involved in the prayers. Or perhaps they are maintaining a distance which they consider respectful.

Meanwhile, conversion may be taking place and some of the people who come for the feast may well be attending churches also, but we have no idea about these. Any enquiry about these aspects will incite trouble and unrest only. Thus, they are unable to identify themselves as part of the community worshipping in that temple. It is this vacant place which the Missionaries are able to fill successfully and that is why they succeed in their efforts.

Well, one cud casually ask if one is going to church, in a gentle friendly way. Am not sure why wud casual talk incite any trouble. Possibly the real reason is that the hindus there do not care if the dalits are going to church also.

It may be true that dalits are coming to your house, eating along with you on the same dining table, etc. Similarly you may be taking meals in his house. Here, I have given you a real example of a whole village community eating together in a temple.
Yet, when it comes to the religious part of the dalit's existence, the hinduism of our type is not able to attract them, or may be we have not been able to make it attractive to them. The Christian and Muslim missionaries are able to do that. This is exactly what I have been trying to convey to our community as our greatest handicap.

I hear the church fathers double as counsellors and that is why the community feeling in church attendees is strong. A maid told me that her husband, a former alcoholic, stopped drinking after they became christians because the church father counselled them. This church father was patient all thru the 2+ years it took for her husband to quit alcohol. Do hindus priests mediate in such things? Our attitude is always "it is their problem" -- as long as nothing troubles us and our people, our identity, our ego, our position, our prospects, our growth, our selves, our everything...

If only we understand this it may no longer be necessary to dwelve on the ancient causes and brahmin Vs Dalit issue etc.

Sir i humble disagree with this. Me thinks, even if we do not delve, the others might do so. It is better we take our history in our hands and be honest with it. We never know how a purana story or a itihasa incident might get utilized by a missionary for his 'preaching' pov.

When we have educated our children under Macaulay's demoniacal system so that they will be well-off, how far will any attempt from our side, be convincing if we start prescribing a different pure system for the dalits? Is it not necessary to "walk the talk" and first canvas others (including brahmins) to send their children, grandchildren, etc., to the non-Macaulay system of learning?

Am told sir, that the brahmins were the first to shift to english education in tamilnadu regions. It is sort of ironical that the ones who sought secular education under the british now demonise it.

RKM or many other missions may be doing work among the dalits. But I do not think any one of them has analyzed the need for providing the religious content to the dalits and that too not as a separate package doled out as charity but an inclusive effort in which all "sanatanadharmis" will be involved as equal participants irrespective of their caste, will have one form of worship and one or the same religious book/s.

Perfectly said sir, except that "caste" does not apply anymore, since people are no longer in their old jobs.

It is because our religious lore is so full of things which, if exposed, will make us ashamed, that the Missionaries are able to use them as effective weapons. As an example pl. read the story (somewhat obscene) of uparichara vasu, the grandfather of sage Vyasa, whom we hold in very high esteem.

inner traditions: A King’s Lust and the Birth of Vyasa’s Mother

It is therefore necessary on our part to either find convincing explanations for all such points; they are legion and it will be beyond human endeavour to do that. Or else, we can expose the equally ugly and undesirable aspects of the other religion; but are we prepared to do that?

Thankyou for introducing me to the blog. It is a perfectly written article, mature and sensible with no-frills and no-hangups. Me thinks sir, we have become conditioned due to foreign influences. We have become the sort of people who are ashamed of sex and sexuality. A far cry from those ancient hindus who veiwed, approached and experienced sex as experimentalists, spiritualists, etc. I was told that the souls of sages like to become conceived where they will have no family responsibility. At the same time, they may procreate, for a purpose (even if it be lust). It is a choice they make. And there is nothing really to be judgemental about it. Perhaps time, above all, decides things . If Vyasa had not been born, the Kurus wud not have been born, Mahabharat wud not have happened, Krishna wud have no role, we wud not have known the Bhagavad Gita and Kaliyuga wud not have begun.

The most appropriate method will be to study the psychology that drives these people towards religious conversions and then try to deal with it appropriately.

Wholeheartedly agree with this.

Shri RVR and Smt. HH,

Shri Raghy has already said it and I am only repeating it. Both of you wish well for hinduism or sanatanadharma, but your languages are different, so to say, and hence there are sparks flying like in a puranic battle. I request that we consider the topic only and not the personalities involved in the discussion and expressing their views, unless of course, we want Praveen to have a large stock of locks handy!

Shri Sangom, the best i can do for now, to ease this off, is to avoid responding to shri RVR's posts. I have made one post to him above to know what discriminations he has experienced. When i respond i hope to do it with care.

But sir, i realised this one thing here...Anything that questions the vedas, puranas, brahmin identity, caste formation, varnas, etc is not tolerated easily by some people here. They have created a comfort zone for themselves mentally (stemming perhaps from faulty basis) and they do not want anyone to question it. It is ironical to think that they feel 'discriminated' against. Its like they want to have the cake, and eat it too and have all the cakes the same way.