Atheism for Beginners

[geetu habibah]

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Dear members,

Even though I am not an atheist but I grew up in an atmosphere of atheism.
In this forum I love God exists thread the most but I started this thread after seeing the Advaita for Layman thread because I thought this Atheisn for Beginners thread will serve a purpose for those who think on the lines of atheism.

I welcome members to share their input here.

For a start I found this site and here is the url

Atheism for Beginners - The Very Basic Facts About Atheism

 

[Brahmanyan]

Atheism

Interesting thread. But Atheism is not new to the followers of Vedic (Hindu) religion in this Country. Atheism known as Nir-iswaravada or Nastika is an accepted or valid philosophical thought amongst the Hindus. Literature dealing Early Mimamsa, Samkya and Brihaspatya Sutra of Charvaka deal in detail about Atheism. Jainism and Buddhism also reject personal creator God. Plenty of web resources are available on this subject.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[prasad1]

Atheism: For beginners in philosophy may be appropriate.
But there can be no atheism for beginners in religion.
Do deny the existence of some philosophy, concept etc you must know what you are looking for and exhausted all possibilities.
For example if I can declare that there in no "bigfoot" or "yeti" I must know what I was looking for, and secondly I must have exhausted every possible place on earth.
I can be ignorant of "yeti", but I can not deny "yeti" exists.

Similarly I can be ignorant of "GOD", that does not make me a atheist. To deny "God" you must know GOD and proved that does not exist. It is impossible to deny an hypothesis without facts.
Even Eisenstein's theory that you can not go faster than light is being challenged.

 

[tbs]

hi
i like charvaka philosophy too....nothing wrong....if u read vatsyana's kamasutra is part of aethism...its wonderful too...there are
many rishis are aetheist..... like sankya theory ....

 

[Yamaka]

Dear members,

Even though I am not an atheist but I grew up in an atmosphere of atheism.
In this forum I love God exists thread the most but I started this thread after seeing the Advaita for Layman thread because I thought this Atheisn for Beginners thread will serve a purpose for those who think on the lines of atheism.

I welcome members to share their input here.

For a start I found this site and here is the url

Atheism for Beginners - The Very Basic Facts About Atheism

Atheism of Yamaka:

Hi gh:

How are you?

I am amused that YOU, not an Atheist yourself, started this Thread! Very interesting, nonetheless.

I have written extensively about what I do, what I believe in and what I rile against....also about the Awesome Power of Nature as the God of Yamaka (in the "Advaita for Beginners" Thread) and my passion in Science, Engineering & Technology, and its Research & Development...

What exactly is the Atheism of Yamaka?

1. He totally rejects the IDEA of the Organized Religions that God is the Super Natural Agent that controls ALL activities in this Universe, including that of humans, ALL the time.

2. He rejects the IDEA that this SNA needs all the Aaradhana - the prayers, poojas and bhajans; and rejects the view that this SNA can dole out favors for those worshipers, as He pleases.

3. He rejects the IDEA of the Poorva Janma Karma, which is totally a hoax..

He believes that his Awesome Power of Nature = God that controls the activities of ALL humans, their achievements past, present and the future.

No one can bribe this APN by prayers, poojas, bhajans, no one hitherto understands fully this APN and this Power will never dole out favors to anyone, period.

More later...

Take care...

 

[renuka]

hi
i like charvaka philosophy too....nothing wrong....if u read vatsyana's kamasutra is part of aethism...its wonderful too...there are
many rishis are aetheist..... like sankya theory ....

TBS garu,

Kamasutra didnt deny existence of God did it?
Can you elaborate?

Anway the end product of self realization is to go beyond the concept of God.

Naasthika doesnt mean rejecting idea of God but rather not accepting the authority of the Karma Kanda portion of the Vedas..I wouldnt want to say it rejects the Jnaana Kanda portion cos the words of Lord Buddha do sound very Advaitic most of the while..so for me I believe may be only the Karma kanda portion could have been rejected.

TBS garu...going beyond God is going beyond the concept of a Personal God so for all practical purposes we go back to Brahman.

Basically we can only reject the idea of a personal god and not reject Brahman cos can we ever reject our true self?

There you go boy..thats why some rishis were considered Naastika(rejecting the idea of a personal god as in Ishwara), its still a variant of Neti Neti dont you think so?

 

[saidevo]

namaste Yamaka.

Just one question for now: is your APN endowed with consciousness and goes about its activities of creation, sustenance and destruction in a schematic manner or is it just an unintelligent physical force that relies on chaos and randomness for its activities?

 

[tbs]

TBS garu,

Kamasutra didnt deny existence of God did it?
Can you elaborate?

Anway the end product of self realization is to go beyond the concept of God.

Naasthika doesnt mean rejecting idea of God but rather not accepting the authority of the Karma Kanda portion of the Vedas..I wouldnt want to say it rejects the Jnaana Kanda portion cos the words of Lord Buddha do sound very Advaitic most of the while..so for me I believe may be only the Karma kanda portion could have been rejected.

TBS garu...going beyond God is going beyond the concept of a Personal God so for all practical purposes we go back to Brahman.

Basically we can only reject the idea of a personal god and not reject Brahman cos can we ever reject our true self?

There you go boy..thats why some rishis were considered Naastika(rejecting the idea of a personal god as in Ishwara), its still a variant of Neti Neti dont you think so?

hi renuka,
sometimes even sankara's advaita philosophy resembels like buddhism...some say he is a प्रच्चंना बौधः

 

[tks]

<edited and removed by praveen. the personal life of a member cannot be questioned in public. If at all you have something to ask, please do so in private and not in public.>

 

[ozone]

<edited to remove the quoted message - praveen>
This is getting into a personal life of an individual in public. Its possible the respondee might respond without taking into offence, but still in the larger interest such questions in public must be prohibited. I hope the moderator will take note

thanks

 

[geetu habibah]

This is getting into a personal life of an individual in public. Its possible the respondee might respond without taking into offence, but still in the larger interest such questions in public must be prohibited. I hope the moderator will take note

thanks

I did not want to answer so soon because I was going to sleep but when I saw this post I thought better answer now before any conflict starts.

I have no problems with any questions in fact previously I had given details about my life and the atheism I was brought up in.
About my dad being a muslim and my mum a TB.

Tks ji,

Anyway do you think your Dad was truly an Atheist (negating concept of personal God) or he just rejected part of Islamic doctrine but was basically a private Muslim?

In fact I had the same doubt about my own dad.I used to suspect the same as what you wrote and even checked his cupboard shelves to see for any prayer mat or any tell tail signs.
Never found anything though.

 

[sarma-61]

imho, atheism looks very very enticing and grand when one is like what is described in the TaittireeyOpanishat in the following sentences:yuvAsyAt sAdhuyuvAdhyAyakaH| ASishThO draDhishThO balishTaH, tasyEyam prthvee sarvA vittasyapoorNAsyAt".

But once jarA starts taking its toll and one starts seeing the inevitable end to this grand life, generally, one gets confused and does not know what to clutch for his own self-assurance. Atheists generally believe that death is the final end of everything; but even life-long communists and therefore atheists die with mumbling of "inquilAb zindabad" or some such slogan.

The point is, this life "Atman" in the believer's parlance, is bound so strongly to the physical body that death or separation is a very very slow, difficult process and that is why people who suffer usually remark, "I am dying here...". In those final moments every living person must have some ray of hope, something to look forward to - be it Ram, Raheem or Christ - and without such a ray of hope, the final adieu becomes impossible.

Perhaps that is why some people say, "nobody dies an atheist".

 

[Yamaka]

namaste Yamaka.

Just one question for now: is your APN endowed with consciousness and goes about its activities of creation, sustenance and destruction in a schematic manner or is it just an unintelligent physical force that relies on chaos and randomness for its activities?

Dear Saidevo:

As I said before, no one understands fully this APN, including all the Scientists in the world. My guess is

1. The words you have used "Consciousness", "Creation","Sustenance", "Destruction", "unintelligent", "chaos" and "randomness" belong to the realm of a Theistic thinker. To fully understand the APN, FIRST one has to get out of this MIND SET.

2. This APN follows all the known and unknown laws of physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, astrophysics, astronomy etc etc.

3. As I wrote elsewhere, this APN is responsible for creating the environment to bring forth a living protoplam from the primordial nitrogenous soup... and it guided all the way through the Biological Evolution.. it has also implanted the "Conscience" in an Athiest like Yamaka...

The KEY in all this is to understand that APN is just a FORCE or POWER. As such, it will not yield to the prayers, poojas and bhajans of human beings.

More later...

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

imho, atheism looks very very enticing and grand when one is like what is described in the TaittireeyOpanishat in the following sentences:yuvAsyAt sAdhuyuvAdhyAyakaH| ASishThO draDhishThO balishTaH, tasyEyam prthvee sarvA vittasyapoorNAsyAt".

But once jarA starts taking its toll and one starts seeing the inevitable end to this grand life, generally, one gets confused and does not know what to clutch for his own self-assurance. Atheists generally believe that death is the final end of everything; but even life-long communists and therefore atheists die with mumbling of "inquilAb zindabad" or some such slogan.

The point is, this life "Atman" in the believer's parlance, is bound so strongly to the physical body that death or separation is a very very slow, difficult process and that is why people who suffer usually remark, "I am dying here...". In those final moments every living person must have some ray of hope, something to look forward to - be it Ram, Raheem or Christ - and without such a ray of hope, the final adieu becomes impossible.

Perhaps that is why some people say, "nobody dies an atheist".

I don't know whether this makes any sense to any Believer:

Atheists like Yamaka never FEAR death..they know from their day of Birth, death WILL come one day. That death may be peaceful or very painful (as the birth was).

When the Atheists conquered this FEAR first, things got clearer in their mind..

The clarity is the issue here... Theism indoctrinates FEAR in the Believers, just opposite of getting Clarity of Matters!

Cheers.

 

[saidevo]

namaste Yamaka.

Your post #13:
I thought the terms 'chaos' and 'randomness' belonged to the realm of science. In Theism, we believe that whether it is God's act or soul's karma, nothing is random although things do appear chaotic.

• ...it has also implanted the "Conscience" in an Athiest like Yamaka...

The dictionary defines 'conscience' as "a knowledge or sense of right and wrong, with an urge to do right;" How does an atheist distinguish between right and wrong?

Let us say that an atheist scientist invents a sophisticated technology that leads other atheist scientists to building weapons of mass destruction. Now, an atheist political chief gives the order for his army men to use the weapon against an enemy country, which they do in good faith.

The question is, in this scenario, how do the atheist people involved decide about the right and wrong, using their conscience? What is the role of APN with regard to each of these people?

• Are there any examples of atheist celebrities dying without showing any sort of fear?

• How does an atheist distinguish between sentient and insentient life forms?

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Saidevo:

My response in bold letters here -

namaste Yamaka.

Your post #13:
I thought the terms 'chaos' and 'randomness' belonged to the realm of science. In Theism, we believe that whether it is God's act or soul's karma, nothing is random although things do appear chaotic.

• ...it has also implanted the "Conscience" in an Athiest like Yamaka...

The dictionary defines 'conscience' as "a knowledge or sense of right and wrong, with an urge to do right;" How does an atheist distinguish between right and wrong?

This you learned thru Human Biological Evolution. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong, irrespective of your Faith or none.

Let us say that an atheist scientist invents a sophisticated technology that leads other atheist scientists to building weapons of mass destruction. Now, an atheist political chief gives the order for his army men to use the weapon against an enemy country, which they do in good faith.

Dr. Enrico Fermi (I believe he was an Atheist, I am not sure, though) discovered the ways to control the nuclear fission reactions which led to the atom bomb a few years later. He discovered this with an aim of understanding the Science of nuclear reactions (a small part of my APN)... but political reasons forced other Scientists to use this discovery to weaponize it to stop the WW II... that's the politics of our life. Will you blame Fermi for this? The same argument holds good about the misuse/abuse of other Scientific discoveries.

I must point out here many of the abusers could very well be Theists!

The question is, in this scenario, how do the atheist people involved decide about the right and wrong, using their conscience? What is the role of APN with regard to each of these people?

APN as a FORCE or POWER has given this faculty to all human beings w/o exception. It's your FREEWILL to apply it as appropriate.

• Are there any examples of atheist celebrities dying without showing any sort of fear?

There should be plenty.. I don't recall any NOW!!

• How does an atheist distinguish between sentient and insentient life forms?

You may have to define these terms before we go further!

Cheers.

 

[Brahmanyan]

My knowledge on Atheism is elementary, gathered from various sources of translations and commentaries. I wish to share the following information which I believe will be useful to those who wish to learn more on this subject

Maharishi Swami Dayananda Saraswathi founder of Arya Samaj has discussed in detail about the subject in his magnum opus "Sathyartha Prakasha" (Chapter 12) to refute the arguments of Atheism of Charvaka, Buddhist and Jain faiths in relation to Vedic Scriptures.

The original work of Charvaka philosophy known as "Bargaspatya Sutras" by one Brihaspathi seems to have been lost, and all the arguments are based on the text available in "Sarva dharshana samgraha" a compendium of ancient philosophical thoughts of India by Madhavacharya, or Madhava Vidhyaranya , (not to be confused with Sri Madhvacharya propunder of Dwaitha Philosophy) wherein sixteen systems of Philosophies are discussed.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[KRS]

It was Robert Oppenheimer, not Enrico Fermi more responsible of weaponising the nuclear energy. And it is quite interesting that Oppenheimer, who was Jewish, quoted a passage from Bhagavat Gita on seeing the power of explosion from the first ever atomic bomb.

But isn't this a very convenient argument from an atheist's pov? Men are responsible for using Science in the wrong manner, but when it comes to religion, hey, it is the religion that is responsible, even though the religion teaches all the exalted human values.

Oh, yeah, I forgot that atheism is not a religion!

Regards,
KRS

Dear Saidevo:

My response in bold letters here -



Cheers.

 

[ozone]

I am just curious to know about the following:
o What motivates one to become an atheist?
o What values does one acquire or exhibit by being an atheist?

 

[sravna]

I am just curious to know about the following:
o What motivates one to become an atheist?

ego

o What values does one acquire or exhibit by being an atheist?

all the wrong values

 

[Nara]

Oh, yeah, I forgot that atheism is not a religion!

ego

all the wrong values

So cute youall , the smilies make you adorable ha?

 

[C RAVI]

I am just curious to know about the following:
o What motivates one to become an atheist?

Ignorance of Religion and Spirituality. Who thinks that GOD is there to fulfill all his/her desires and when could see that almost nothing or hardly things have materialized, they feel, there is nothing called GOD and that Religion and Spirituality are all bogus. OR rejecting God and Spirituality just because one has accomplished all mental and material fulfillment, may be just as per the outcome of random phenomena.

o What values does one acquire or exhibit by being an atheist?

Value acquired - Do anything for your survival if you feel you are right for yourself and you can be satisfied. There is nothing called selfishness that to be considered negatively. Selfishness to the best of one's fulfillment is the motive of human survival. The selfish "Genes" is inevitable. Anything performed by Selfish Genes is perfectly right as long as the acts are not recognized as wrong by the law of the land.

Value exhibited - I am courageous and have strong mind. I have created my own life/future without any hoax phenomena called "blessing" & "Good Luck". I have my freewill to do what I feel like doing. I have achieved all by myself and I am controlling my only one life of this. You theists have weeker mind, lack required skills and are looking out for the grace of non existent GOD. And this is making you poorer and poorer. So wake up and just ged rid of God and Spirituality that all been baked up by some crooked minds to mislead ignorant and innocent people.

 

[Yamaka]

ego


all the wrong values

Dear Sravna:

I am amused of your simple (wrong answers!). Lol.

As I have said before many times, id/ego is fundamental part of all primates including humans. The very urge in you to answer this fundamental question IS a part of your id/ego! The urge in you to wake up in the morning to attend to "what needs to be done today" IS a part and parcel of your id/ego, I should remind you.

Yes, there are a handful of people who have conquered this id/ego: the people who walk around naked under the Himalayas- who just don't care about anything; and are waiting for the natural death visit them... till then they simply vegetate.

What drove Yamaka (raised in an orthodox religious family) to be an Atheist about 41 years ago?

Simple Rationality and Logic.

Do values differ between Theists and Atheists?

Probably NOT.

Compassion, Love, Empathy, Romance, Peace, Hatred all we learned thru Human Biological Evolution which works constantly irrespective of your FAITH in God or not..

I can very mischievously say many or some Believers are hypocrites! I know I am opening a can of worms here!

Non-Hypocritic Believers (there are plenty around) may forgive me for this careless statement! Lol. Take it easy, people!

Innum varum...

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Ignorance of Religion and Spirituality. Who thinks that GOD is there to fulfill all his/her desires and when could see that almost nothing or hardly things have materialized, they feel, there is nothing called GOD and that Religion and Spirituality are all bogus. OR rejecting God and Spirituality just because one has accomplished all mental and material fulfillment, may be just as per the outcome of random phenomena.



Value acquired - Do anything for your survival if you feel you are right for yourself and you can be satisfied. There is nothing called selfishness that to be considered negatively. Selfishness to the best of one's fulfillment is the motive of human survival. The selfish "Genes" is inevitable. Anything performed by Selfish Genes is perfectly right as long as the acts are not recognized as wrong by the law of the land.

Value exhibited - I am courageous and have strong mind. I have created my own life/future without any hoax phenomena called "blessing" & "Good Luck". I have my freewill to do what I feel like doing. I have achieved all by myself and I am controlling my only one life of this. You theists have weeker mind, lack required skills and are looking out for the grace of non existent GOD. And this is making you poorer and poorer. So wake up and just ged rid of God and Spirituality that all been baked up by some crooked minds to mislead ignorant and innocent people.

Dear Ravi:

Atheists follow simple logic and rationality.. they ask simple questions and get convincing answers and they move on to lead their meaningful life... they refuse to accept the existence of the Super Natural Agent, the usefulness of PPB and the wisdom of PJK... that's all,

1. You have to define first what exactly you follow as "Religion & Spirituality" because there are million different shades and hues of it bandied around. Whether you buy into the FATALISTIC saying "All are Pre-Ordained; Nothing can be changed by humans in the world" or not.

Most Believers EXPECT some favors from their Gods because that's what they understand about their God. Probably, your God is a different God, you just praise him by worship -prayers, poojas and bhajans - and you don't EXPECT anything at all.. that's your version of God & Spirituality... please allow other Believers to worship their version of God, they will beg you.


Values are Universal. The 2.5 billion people around the world who won't worship any God live happily with high morals... Just look around, dear Ravi.

More later...

Cheers.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi:

Atheists follow simple logic and rationality.. they ask simple questions and get convincing answers and they move on to lead their meaningful life... they refuse to accept the existence of the Super Natural Agent, the usefulness of PPB and the wisdom of PJK... that's all,

1. You have to define first what exactly you follow as "Religion & Spirituality" because there are million different shades and hues of it bandied around. Whether you buy into the FATALISTIC saying "All are Pre-Ordained; Nothing can be changed by humans in the world" or not.

Most Believers EXPECT some favors from their Gods because that's what they understand about their God. Probably, your God is a different God, you just praise him by worship -prayers, poojas and bhajans - and you don't EXPECT anything at all.. that's your version of God & Spirituality... please allow other Believers to worship their version of God, they will beg you.


Values are Universal. The 2.5 billion people around the world who won't worship any God live happily with high morals... Just look around, dear Ravi.

More later...

Cheers.

Shri Yamaka,

I believe in Spirituality and I understand and respect the values of spirituality. I practice astrology and I know what God and Spirituality is all about.

Even a realized Sanyasi has a desire. Has expections that he should able to realize the presence of God or could some how know how the magnificient power can look like?

I have some expectation too as a comman man. But my expectations from God are not like I should be fulfilled with my wordly desires otherwise of which I am gonna reject you. I expect to be relieved from negative thoughts, negative vibrations around me. I expect goodness of mind to prevail. I expect myself to be a righteous person in all given challenging circumstances. I expect God/spiritual energies to let me know subtly as where and how I am wrong so that I can correct myself. I seek for mental strength, peace, happiness and good will within me and people surrounding me. I expect God to protect me and guide me subtly.

I expect to enhance my spiritual energies by the grace of the devine being and wish that I don't end up accummulating bad karma. I wish that I should be in a position to serve the needy as that gives me the immense pleasure and satisfaction.

I wish my spiritual practices could mould me well, could provide me wisdom, could provide me with a composed personality.

I am a believer of Karma and I know what I can look for and what I can't/should not from my God / spiritual practices. I can understand how spirituality can help me to work on my Karma.


If people know what God and spirituality is all about, what is karma all about, they would not have a different version of God to worship. If they have different version of God to worship for their motive of acheiving everything they want in this life, than its their own way. I have nothing to do with it. I can only wish that all the people should have the better understanding about God and spirituality and be a good human irrespective of what they could acheive or coudn't acheive with their spiritual practices.

You said this - "Values are Universal. The 2.5 billion people around the world who won't worship any God live happily with high morals... Just look around, dear Ravi."

With their own level of understanding and experiences many theists are becoming atheists and many atheists are becoming theists. Many keep changing from time to time. Many don't honestly express if they are theists or atheists. So Shri Yamaka, I never believe in the existence of 2.5 billion aheists people around the world who wont' worship any God. Thus there is nothing for me to look around based on very very week hypothesis.