Atheism for Beginners

[Yamaka]

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Dear Ravi:

Your post below is very illuminating as to what shade or hue of Religion & Spirituality that YOU follow. But I see some inconsistency, thus I have many disagreement! Please read the response in bold letters below.

Shri Yamaka,

I believe in Spirituality and I understand and respect the values of spirituality. I practice astrology and I know what God and Spirituality is all about.

Even a realized Sanyasi has a desire. Has expections that he should able to realize the presence of God or could some how know how the magnificient power can look like?

Disagree. A REAL Sanyasi has no desire and no ego, IMO.

I have some expectation too as a comman man. But my expectations from God are not like I should be fulfilled with my wordly desires otherwise of which I am gonna reject you. I expect to be relieved from negative thoughts, negative vibrations around me. I expect goodness of mind to prevail. I expect myself to be a righteous person in all given challenging circumstances. I expect God/spiritual energies to let me know subtly as where and how I am wrong so that I can correct myself. I seek for mental strength, peace, happiness and good will within me and people surrounding me. I expect God to protect me and guide me subtly.

I expect to enhance my spiritual energies by the grace of the devine being and wish that I don't end up accummulating bad karma. I wish that I should be in a position to serve the needy as that gives me the immense pleasure and satisfaction.

I wish my spiritual practices could mould me well, could provide me wisdom, could provide me with a composed personality.

As long as you have some sort of EXPECTATION from your God, then how are you different from any other worshiper who wants lots of jewels, money, power or authority from their God? Please explain, if you care.

I am a believer of Karma and I know what I can look for and what I can't/should not from my God / spiritual practices. I can understand how spirituality can help me to work on my Karma.


If people know what God and spirituality is all about, what is karma all about, they would not have a different version of God to worship. If they have different version of God to worship for their motive of acheiving everything they want in this life, than its their own way. I have nothing to do with it. I can only wish that all the people should have the better understanding about God and spirituality and be a good human irrespective of what they could acheive or coudn't acheive with their spiritual practices.

From this Karma, what flows naturally is the FATALISM of "All activities are Pre-Ordained, and nothing can be changed by humans in this world". Do you refute this? Why and How? Explain, if you care to.

You said this - "Values are Universal. The 2.5 billion people around the world who won't worship any God live happily with high morals... Just look around, dear Ravi."

With their own level of understanding and experiences many theists are becoming atheists and many atheists are becoming theists. Many keep changing from time to time. Many don't honestly express if they are theists or atheists. So Shri Yamaka, I never believe in the existence of 2.5 billion aheists people around the world who wont' worship any God. Thus there is nothing for me to look around based on very very week hypothesis.

Please read carefully I wrote: these people are largely Non-Worshipers... most of them are Agnostics and Atheists, but not ALL are... many just don't care about worship of a SNA.

If you have Chinese friends talk to them and understand as to what happens across India's SE border:

Of the 1.3 billion Chinese, a full 1.2 billions are Non-Believers, Non-Worshipers and they are living a moral happier life... You have the RIGHT to live in the bliss of ignorance. The Chinese are achieving something wonderful because of

1. State Banned Theism
2. Bottom Up Politics: Their rural China is healthier and better educated than the rural India
3. State Capitalism
4. Single Party Political Activism.

Do you dare to deny this?

Peace.

Innum varum... later.

 

[prasad1]

A bird would be happier flying in the wilderness, rather than being caged in a gilded prison.
So too people in a democracy would be happier than as servants of a state.

If communism was so great, why has it failed everywhere, including West Bengal.

 

[Yamaka]

A bird would be happier flying in the wilderness, rather than being caged in a gilded prison.
So too people in a democracy would be happier than as servants of a state.

If communism was so great, why has it failed everywhere, including West Bengal.

I have written very vociferously about the human right violations of the Communist Chinese.

I want Charter O8 of the Chinese Constitution fully implemented as Lio Xiabo (Nobelist for Peace, locked up in the deep jail of China) demands... having said and written all that, I ALSO see the other side of the coin:

The version of Communism that China follows is quite different from North Korea or Cuba...

1. Yes, they have banned all the Organized Religions and Theocracy in China since 1960... that's the genius of Mao Zedong. A very bold Policy.

2. They enforce One Child Policy ruthlessly. Again, thanks to Mao Zedong.

3. Bottom Up Politics: Village is the backbone of the Country... A very good thing.

4. State Capitalism: This is the genius of Deng thru Hu and will be followed by Zi.

5. Single Party Political Activism: CCP appears to be a Single Party. But in practical terms it's just a Conglomerate of Varied Political Ideology or View Point. They all fight it out inside the Party Head Quarters... inside the Party Structure...

They don't do the laundry in the open air for the ordinary people to see and get frightened, as it happens in India or US.

That's the difference. If a Chinese WANTS to get involved in policies and politics, he/she can become a member of CCP and act from INSIDE, not ourside!

Peace.

 

[renuka]

ego


all the wrong values

Dear Sravna,

Actually come to think of it Maya must be having a nice time laughing and thinking "Atheist claim God doesnt exists..Theist claim they know God..but no one realizes I am taking everyone for a big ride here... all the wrong values these humans have becos of their Ahankar."

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

Here is some picturesque advice from shrI Satya Sai Baba:

Here is a coconut tree and up the tree are the coconuts. This tree has a shadow that extends for a distance on the ground.

Now, a man who wishes to secure the coconuts climbs up the coconut tree. At the very time he is climbing the tree; his shadow may be seen climbing the shadow tree.

And, when he plucks the coconuts, his shadow may be seen plucking the shadow coconuts. The man who climbs the real tree secures the real coconuts and, at the same time, his shadow self climbs the shadow tree and plucks the shadow coconuts!

But if the man does not relish the task of climbing the real tree, and instead limits his action to the climbing of the shadow tree, he will not get satisfaction from the shadow coconuts.

While the shadow tree represents the world, and the shadow coconuts represent worldly prosperity, the real tree represents the spiritual life, and the real coconuts represent the fulfillment of life.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Yamaka,

I am not blaming the motivating part. I have also argued that certain amount of selfishness is required i.e., a right mix of selfishness and altruism. But let us not overdo it either way and not to overdo the ego thing to the extent of thinking you are God.

Dear Sravna:

I am amused of your simple (wrong answers!). Lol.

As I have said before many times, id/ego is fundamental part of all primates including humans. The very urge in you to answer this fundamental question IS a part of your id/ego! The urge in you to wake up in the morning to attend to "what needs to be done today" IS a part and parcel of your id/ego, I should remind you.

Yes, there are a handful of people who have conquered this id/ego: the people who walk around naked under the Himalayas- who just don't care about anything; and are waiting for the natural death visit them... till then they simply vegetate.

What drove Yamaka (raised in an orthodox religious family) to be an Atheist about 41 years ago?

Simple Rationality and Logic.

Do values differ between Theists and Atheists?

Probably NOT.

Compassion, Love, Empathy, Romance, Peace, Hatred all we learned thru Human Biological Evolution which works constantly irrespective of your FAITH in God or not..

I can very mischievously say many or some Believers are hypocrites! I know I am opening a can of worms here!

Non-Hypocritic Believers (there are plenty around) may forgive me for this careless statement! Lol. Take it easy, people!

Innum varum...

Cheers.

 

[Brahmanyan]

I am just curious to know about the following: o What motivates one to become an atheist? o What values does one acquire or exhibit by being an atheist?

Interesting question. As per my understanding,there is no motivation as such to become an Atheist, since it does not aim at getting a reward.In fact the aim of a theist and atheist is the same to reach the ultimate "truth". Theism and Atheism both deal with an unknown subject. Belief or disbelief in God or Creator is purely subjective. Doubt of a Creator and creation has been there from the days of Rig Veda. The oft quoted hymn Nasadiya Sukta (RV: X 129.1-7) expresses the paradox of a restless mind -

Who truly knows? who here may declare it?
Whence it is born? Whence indeed this creation?
Even the Gods were subsequent to the World's emergence.
Then who knows whence it arose?

Though this hymn is related to the Vedic Cosmology of creation, the genuine doubt of a thinker stands unanswered.

I could not understand the purport of the second question. Truth and knowledge cannot be valued by any other means.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sarma-61]

Interesting question. As per my understanding,there is no motivation as such to become an Atheist, since it does not aim at getting a reward.In fact the aim of a theist and atheist is the same to reach the ultimate "truth". Theism and Atheism both deal with an unknown subject. Belief or disbelief in God or Creator is purely subjective. Doubt of a Creator and creation has been there from the days of Rig Veda. The oft quoted hymn Nasadiya Sukta (RV: X 129.1-7) expresses the paradox of a restless mind -

Who truly knows? who here may declare it?
Whence it is born? Whence indeed this creation?
Even the Gods were subsequent to the World's emergence.
Then who knows whence it arose?

Though this hymn is related to the Vedic Cosmology of creation, the genuine doubt of a thinker stands unanswered.

I could not understand the purport of the second question. Truth and knowledge cannot be valued by any other means.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

The last two lines of the nAsadeeya sUktam are:—

yO asyAdhyakSha: paramE vyoman
tsO anggavEda yadi vA na vEda

The rik seems to say "the overseer of all this (universe) situated in the highest heavens may know, or may be He also does not!

The purport of the second question is, imho, to find out by self-enquiry, as to whether the purpose and origin of 'creation' is within the ability of human understanding and intellect to gauge and/or find out. The sage deerghatamas himself finally signs off saying that even the God in the highest heavens overseeing and supervising everything in this world (universe) may not know this mystery! imho, this is to be interpreted as showing the utter impossibility of human ability before this mysterious existence, and is not to be taken as if the sage has interviewed the god in the highest heavens and found that He also does not know properly, or is fumbling for the correct answer.

 

[Yamaka]

Interesting question. As per my understanding,there is no motivation as such to become an Atheist, since it does not aim at getting a reward.In fact the aim of a theist and atheist is the same to reach the ultimate "truth". Theism and Atheism both deal with an unknown subject. Belief or disbelief in God or Creator is purely subjective. Doubt of a Creator and creation has been there from the days of Rig Veda. The oft quoted hymn Nasadiya Sukta (RV: X 129.1-7) expresses the paradox of a restless mind -

Who truly knows? who here may declare it?
Whence it is born? Whence indeed this creation?
Even the Gods were subsequent to the World's emergence.
Then who knows whence it arose?

Though this hymn is related to the Vedic Cosmology of creation, the genuine doubt of a thinker stands unanswered.

I could not understand the purport of the second question. Truth and knowledge cannot be valued by any other means.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dr. Amartya Sen (Economist, Nobelist and the US National Medalist for Humanities) laments in one of his speeches/writings like,

"Vedas have plenty of information on Atheism... Unfortunately, for some reason, most Indians think of Vedas as a source of only God and Spirituality"

He himself is a scholar in Sanskrit.. In fact, he learned Sanskrit BEFORE he learned Bengali, Hindi or English. He is from a very scholarly family... everyone knows Vedas in the original text in his family. He was named by Nobelist Rab Tagore himself.

Dr. Sen is a self-proclaimed Agnostic..a Humanist. I consider him the Pride, Promise and the Conscience of India.


Cheers.

 

[renuka]

The last two lines of the nAsadeeya sUktam are:—

yO asyAdhyakSha: paramE vyoman
tsO anggavEda yadi vA na vEda

The rik seems to say "the overseer of all this (universe) situated in the highest heavens may know, or may be He also does not!

The purport of the second question is, imho, to find out by self-enquiry, as to whether the purpose and origin of 'creation' is within the ability of human understanding and intellect to gauge and/or find out. The sage deerghatamas himself finally signs off saying that even the God in the highest heavens overseeing and supervising everything in this world (universe) may not know this mystery! imho, this is to be interpreted as showing the utter impossibility of human ability before this mysterious existence, and is not to be taken as if the sage has interviewed the god in the highest heavens and found that He also does not know properly, or is fumbling for the correct answer.

Dear SarmaJi,

Brilliant!! You described it simply too well.

 

[sarma-61]

Dr. Amartya Sen (Economist, Nobelist and the US National Medalist for Humanities) laments in one of his speeches/writings like,

"Vedas have plenty of information on Atheism... Unfortunately, for some reason, most Indians think of Vedas as a source of only God and Spirituality"

He himself is a scholar in Sanskrit.. In fact, he learned Sanskrit BEFORE he learned Bengali, Hindi or English. He is from a very scholarly family... everyone knows Vedas in the original text in his family. He was named by Nobelist Rab Tagore himself.

Dr. Sen is a self-proclaimed Agnostic..a Humanist. I consider him the Pride, Promise and the Conscience of India.


Cheers.

Shri Yamaka sir,

A simple literal translation of the nAsadeeya sUktam can be viewed, and may be very logically, as espousing atheism by declaring that even the god in the highest heavens is an ignoramus, very much like a government babu in India who is a mere pen-pusher without knowing any of the laws/rules and GOs. Naturally, it will suit the convenience of atheists like Shri Amartya Sen (BTW, 'amartya' may be interpreted as both immortal as also inhuman!, you see.) to emphasize the atheistic looking interpretation of the sUkta.

But for people like me, the very fact that the sage admits of an 'adhyakSha' of all this in the 'paramE vyOma', is proof enough that the sage believed in the existence of something which he considered to be supervising all this. Thus he was a theist, and surely not even a deist.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Yamaka sir,

A simple literal translation of the nAsadeeya sUktam can be viewed, and may be very logically, as espousing atheism by declaring that even the god in the highest heavens is an ignoramus, very much like a government babu in India who is a mere pen-pusher without knowing any of the laws/rules and GOs. Naturally, it will suit the convenience of atheists like Shri Amartya Sen (BTW, 'amartya' may be interpreted as both immortal as also inhuman!, you see.) to emphasize the atheistic looking interpretation of the sUkta.

But for people like me, the very fact that the sage admits of an 'adhyakSha' of all this in the 'paramE vyOma', is proof enough that the sage believed in the existence of something which he considered to be supervising all this. Thus he was a theist, and surely not even a deist.

:yo:

 

[Yamaka]

:yo:

Dear Ravi and Mr. Sarma:

Dr. Sen has not claimed to be an Atheist, as yet... he says he is Agnostic about God, Spirits and Religions.

I don't know Sanskrit, Aramic or Arabic to get into the arguments of what each sloka or Sura means etc..

But, Dr. Sen knows it all, I gather.

Let's not get into the argument of whether he is "immortal" or "inhuman"... I know only one thing "He is the Pride, Promise and the Conscience of India".

Lol.

 

[ozone]

Interesting question. As per my understanding,there is no motivation as such to become an Atheist, since it does not aim at getting a reward.In fact the aim of a theist and atheist is the same to reach the ultimate "truth". Theism and Atheism both deal with an unknown subject. Belief or disbelief in God or Creator is purely subjective. Doubt of a Creator and creation has been there from the days of Rig Veda. The oft quoted hymn Nasadiya Sukta (RV: X 129.1-7) expresses the paradox of a restless mind -

Who truly knows? who here may declare it?
Whence it is born? Whence indeed this creation?
Even the Gods were subsequent to the World's emergence.
Then who knows whence it arose?

Though this hymn is related to the Vedic Cosmology of creation, the genuine doubt of a thinker stands unanswered.

I could not understand the purport of the second question. Truth and knowledge cannot be valued by any other means.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

This interpretation is very different from the one given by Sri saidevo here
The 'doubt' expressed here is from a perspective of uncertainity, and not a suspect.
The Atheism of God disbelievers are quite different from the Atheism of God unbelievers, God haters or God despisers.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi and Mr. Sarma:

Dr. Sen has not claimed to be an Atheist, as yet... he says he is Agnostic about God, Spirits and Religions.

Lol.

Shri Yamaka,

Please try to understand subtly (not scientifically and rationally) and accept that People Who Say They Are Agnostics Are Basically Theists Deep Within Their Inner Consciousness.

It is just that Dr.Amrtya Sen, referring to Vidas, is acknowledging the idea of Atheism as something that is not against 1000s of years past dated Vedic Thesis.


I know few people who say they are Agnostics BUT they behave and act in all the ways Theists would do, with respect to Spirituality. That's why I request such folks to participate in spirituality with all belief and respect rather playing it as a fun game. Either be a Theist or Atheist.


But since you say affirmatively that you are an Atheist and by the way you make your arguments against GOD/Spirituality with all your honesty, I am considering you as a Genuine Atheist and thus I spare my time and energy with all my interest with pleasure, to share my views and thoughts with you and argue with you.

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka,

Please try to understand subtly (not scientifically and rationally) and accept that People Who Say They Are Agnostics Are Basically Theists Deep Within Their Inner Consciousness.

It is just that Dr.Amrtya Sen, referring to Vidas, is acknowledging the idea of Atheism as something that is not against 1000s of years past dated Vedic Thesis.


I know few people who say they are Agnostics BUT they behave and act in all the ways Theists would do, with respect to Spirituality. That's why I request such folks to participate in spirituality with all belief and respect rather playing it as a fun game. Either be a Theist or Atheist.


But since you say affirmatively that you are an Atheist and by the way you make your arguments against GOD/Spirituality with all your honesty, I am considering you as a Genuine Atheist and thus I spare my time and energy with all my interest with pleasure, to share my views and thoughts with you and argue with you.

Dear Ravi:

If you follow the Birth of an Atheist, the pathway is like this -

True Believer (Theist) for sometime, then becoming doubtful of the rituals, slowly becoming Agnostic... after a while he/she comes out and say openly "I am a self-proclaimed Atheist".

I had similar experience myself.. I was listening to my orthodox parents and followed them till I left for College. I started asking lots of questions about Religion, Spirituality and the Rituals.. I tried to get answers. I failed. I became Agnostic for a few years before proclaiming to be an Atheist.

In the past 41 years I did not regret a minute about my change of heart and my RATIONALITY.

That's what happened to Dr. S. Chandrasekar (Nobelist, Astrophysicist from TN). Perhaps, that's what's happening to Dr. Venki-Venkataraman (Nobelist, Biochemist from TN) and Dr. Amartya Sen,

Wait & watch.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi:

Your post below is very illuminating as to what shade or hue of Religion & Spirituality that YOU follow. But I see some inconsistency, thus I have many disagreement! Please read the response in bold letters below.

From this Karma, what flows naturally is the FATALISM of "All activities are Pre-Ordained, and nothing can be changed by humans in this world". Do you refute this? Why and How? Explain, if you care to.



Peace.

Innum varum... later.

Shri Yamaka, with reference to your post #26.


Out of 1100 milion poor folks of INDIA91%, may be I repeat may be 1 out of thousand would lead their life as pre-ordained fate based on one's karma.

Please understand the basic human psychology and the instincts that makes them to struggle what may come. They struggle and do their best to survive to the best of thier caliber. Either thy tend to do something antisocial/unethical or social/ethical work to make money and improve their survival.

No one accepts life based on pre-ordained concepts of Karma. People tend to wail saying all this are pre-ordained as per one's karma and we are helpless. It's out of frustruation that makes them feel dejected. They say this for their own satisfaction/peace of mind. And this kinds of thoughts and uttering keeps coming out for a moment.

After a while every one gets up and steps in to do what they could do to protect their own interest. The selfish genes never fails to give up.

Because of spirituality and Karma, people tend to refrain from indulging in wrong doing and tend to be righteous as possible. And many, though believe in spirituality & karma, get on their own ways to do anything antisocial/unethical and try to survive better. This is the ground reality.

Please try to understand subtly that, human genes with selfishness never gives up and do what all can be done. Religion/Spirituality is helping folks to remain calm with peace and to be righteous as possible.

So, try to understand that KARMA concept of Hinduism is playing a constructive role to sustain safe human survival for the self and for the society in total.

INDIA91% includes some ethical humans due to their belief in Religion / Spirituality / Karma.

CORRUPTION & EXPLOITATION is existing due living against religion/spirituality with high degree of Atheism. This atheism in folks, in India, is making them live rationally. The rationality due utter atheism that makes them understand that this is a realistic world that to be lived realisticly. Doing anything that gives positive results to fulfill one's desire in any ways possible is the way of realistic living in this realistic world otherwise of which Spirituality/Karma concepts would absolutely foil such realistic thoughts and realisitc living.

Atheism in general/in majority is FATALISTIC.

 

[prasad1]

If you follow the Birth of an Atheist, the pathway is like this -

True Believer (Theist) for sometime, then becoming doubtful of the rituals, slowly becoming Agnostic... after a while he/she comes out and say openly "I am a self-proclaimed Atheist".

You are born without any knowledge. Everything is a learned behavior. So obviously you are born ignorant. Some people learn because of proper intellect. Others cant learn, or refuse to learn.
When you think you have learned enough, they drop off and proclaim that they have all the answers. They might even succeed in some spheres, but their arrogance keeps them from developing spiritually.
An animal in the Jungle is not a theist, similarly a human child abandoned at birth will not be theist, so by definition that child will be atheist. It is not to say that is the only reason for atheism.
Everybody has to evolve their own principles and philosophy of life. We have the freedom to choose our path. No two person need to choose the same path.

By definition God is unknowable. What you know can not be unknowable. So if you claim that you seen the unknowable and it does not exist, you are going against logic. One may conclude that the God that they expected, does not exist. Which only goes to prove that your expectation were wrong.

One may conclude that they have tasted the water of the ocean, and they know all about it. But they would have missed that water from different part of the ocean varies a lot, even the salt content is different. So based on an insignificant amount of knowledge they have come to a conclusion.