Atheist - contribution or lack of it

[sangom]

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... a learned mendicant is received as an honored guest in royal courts.

Shri Nara,

What has this got to do with "charity" as such? I believe kings or rulers everywhere were obliged to follow certain customs and the mendicants which are referred to might have been, initially, the Jain mendicants which, in course of time, gave place to all mendicants. I am not familiar with the Sangam poetry, but may be you will be able to say authoritatively whether the earlier (older) Sangam works allude to such mendicants and the kings/rulers giving them large charities.

One incidence that is highly celebrated in Tamil is the gift of his chariot for a creeper by Pari.

Such universal feelings are usually not very common in the core Hindu scriptures. (Dadhichi deserves a separate treatment and I will post it.) The story of Parivallal could have been imaginary just as the story of king Uthayan Cheralaathan praises him for his feeding the armies at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_warMahabharata war—in the same puranaanooru. You may also be aware that based on this one poem, there have been attempts at dating the Purananuru poems to around 1000 BCE or even earlier to the misty past.

Also, the premier law book for Tamils, Thirukkural, talks of giving without any mention of Brahmins.

You have answered this in the following sentence. What I would like to know is whether the tabra discussions here are based purely and entirely on the Tamil culture or whether we give pride of place to the brahmanic culture. For example, do the Sangam literature describe the four castes?

So, I would think the Tamil culture valued daana to all the needy, it is the Brahminical puranas and Dharmasashthras that put daana to Brahmin in a higher plane.

BTW, the OP's points about this study and paper give a misleading impression, whether deliberate or not, I don't know.

The study that purports to find theists are more generous is seriously flawed. The cited article from Psychology Today points this out. In this respect, it is relevant to note two points, (i) the two largest philanthropists in human history are non-believers, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, and (ii) in earlier times there were not many openly atheists in society, who knows how many of the generous ones were atheists.

The second point suggested in the OP is about moral relativism. First, we must note that moral absolutism can be quite dangerous, especially ones that are rooted in religion and god. Next, the article points out that even among atheists majority do not subscribe to moral relativism, only that the percentage of people expressing relativism is the highest among the atheists.

At a deeper level, what motivates the so called spiritual people is moksham of one kind or another, a purely selfish goal. To achieve this goal they engage in various actrivities, daanam being one of them. The unbelievers on the other hand hold that this one life is it, there is no heaven or hell or kailasham or Vaikuntam, when we die we are gone forever. Their generosity is motivated by nothing selfish, except at the DNA level, and that I think is worthy.

Cheers!

You would have already sensed the mischievous intention underlying the OP. I only wanted to emphasize that the theists are induced to be charitable for their own benefits and hence their charitable disposition stems from their essentially selfish considerations. In that respect we agree.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom,

I just remembered..what about Maharishi Dadhici? He being a Brahmana gave up his life and bones for the sake of the benefit of the world(So obviously all Varnas benefited from his act)
He was known as a Mahadaani becos of this act.

Dadhichi's stories are varied and hence form part of mythology. I do not think we should cite mythological stories as examples of historical realities, much less as actual facts. The best part of Dadhichi was that his so called "sacrifice" was neither voluntary, nor for universal good.

I give below one version of the story from here:—

"In Ahmadabad1, on the banks of the Sabarmati River is a place called Dudheshwara. This is said to have been the ashram of a great rishi [sage] by the name of Dadhichi [also Dadhyancha2]. Different versions of Dadhichi’s story are mentioned in a number of sacred texts, among them Rg Veda, the Srimad Bhagavatam, Srimad Devi Bhagavatam, and the Mahabharata. Dadhichi was the son of Artharvana Rishi, the mantra-drshta [perceiver of the mantras] of much of Artharvana Veda.
According to the legends, Dadhichi was a master of a Vedic rite known as the Madhu Vidya3, through which one can obtain relative immortality in Brahma Loka, the highest heaven. There was only one problem. Indra, the king of the devas [demigods], was very fearful of losing his position. He was worried that if one learned the Madhu Vidya, such a one could easily usurp his exalted position. Thus he cursed the science, saying that he would decapitate anyone who taught it. However, when the Ashwini Twins—two devas in the form of children—desired to learn Madhu Vidya and they approached Dadhichi. They had a plan to circumvent Indra’s wrath. They themselves would cut off Dadhichi’s head, preserve it and replace it with the head of horse. Then when Indra cut off Dadhichi’s horse head, they would replace it with the original. Dadhichi agreed, and everything went as planned.



But the story does not end there. Later on, the devas were being terrorized by a demon named Vritra Asura. No one could stop him. He quickly dethroned Indra and chased him out of heaven. Indra ran to Lord Brahma and asked for his help. Brahma said that Vritra Asura could not be killed by normal weapons. The only thing that could kill Vritra Asura was a spear fashioned from the spine of Dadhichi Rishi.


Indra went to the banks of the Sabarmati and asked Dadhichi for this favour. Despite the fact that Indra had once cut off his head, Dadhichi did not hesitate. He said, “This body will anyway wither away one day. If it can serve some useful purpose, so be it.” The rishi then drew up his prana [life force] and vacated his body. After animals ate away the body’s flesh, Indra took Dadhichi’s spine and made the specified weapon—the Vajra Ayudha."

It will be seen that Dadhichi could not have said "no" to Indra's request because that would have meant Indra cutting off Cadhichi's head a second time and the Aswin twins were not there to save him this time. The sacrifice was only to help Indra to kill his victor Vritra and thus to regain his throne as king of the demi-gods (Devas), not for universal well-being.

Last but not least, it was this Indra who was put down by Krishna who advised the Brajvasis that there was no point in performing pooja for Indra, and that it is better they minded their own business of tending cattle.


If we are to place reliance strictly on the Rigveda I mandala, 13 Adhyaya, Sukta 84) the story goes as —

Once when Dadhici visited the swargaloka, he found that the earth was full of asuras. Indra failed miserably in his battles with those asuras. Hence Indra searched for any relics of dadhici left on the earth; he found the skull of a horse, possessed by Dadhici, in a lake in a place called "SaryaNa". Indra immediately took that horse skull and togethere Indra and Dadhici exterminated countless asuras.

Thus, we see that the rigveda mentions Dadhici or Dadhyanga (one who lives on curd), a horse-skull, Indra and killing of asuras. Later composers must have let their imagination on to further colourful stories. Anyway, I doubt whether even one of the theists, not excluding Smt. Renuka, today values the "total benefit of the world" so much as to forego their life and give their backbone (if any) to be used as a weapon to kill the enemies of theists.

PS. There is one more XXX-rated story relating to Dadhichi. I am not writing it here since we have a few "angels" who may not like that story

 

[prasad1]

Sangom sir,I am sorry you have such poor opinion of your own people. The original post had nothing to do with Tabras as you call them. You are the one dragging it to Caste.
Majority of the world does not know what a tabra means, The statistics was in general.
Just because of some Tabras you know have been mean to you, you dont have to malign the entire community.

 

[nachi naga]

swarga lokam aka heaven is a lokam where angels gods reside in bhu-lokam and that too as a hridayam vaasi in a jeevan.the opposite is naraka lokam aka hell.the bodily discomfort experiance is living hell and when the body is decomposed the athma is trolling in atmosphere,waiting to get into a body.the saathvic actions prformed for the welfare of society brings about harmony peace amity friendship amongst athmas.the atheist keep denying themselves the oppurtunity to see divinity inherent not only within themselves but also in others.believers in god a power that catapults saathvic life for some ,rajasic for some,tamasic for some based on ones own karma in various incarnation of life forms during a time immemorial.atheist are a cog in the wheel and are very much needed for believers to strengthen ones own faith in god as well.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sangom,

You wrote :

Anyway, I doubt whether even one of the theists, not excluding Smt. Renuka, today values the "total benefit of the world" so much as to forego their life and give their backbone (if any) to be used as a weapon to kill the enemies of theists.

Well can any of the Atheist and Agnostics do the same?After all we Theist believe in Karma and rebirth so another body is certain for us.

Atheist and Agnostics believe that they only exists once..hence they should put their body to good use.
Any takers?Let me know...I love post mortems..thats the only time patients dont complain.

Note: Only Vertebrates need to apply.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom,

You wrote :


Well can any of the Atheist and Agnostics do the same?After all we Theist believe in Karma and rebirth so another body is certain for us.

Atheist and Agnostics believe that they only exists once..hence they should put their body to good use.
Any takers?Let me know...I love post mortems..thats the only time patients dont complain.

Note: Only Vertebrates need to apply.

Since Dadhichi's case was not presented here by any atheist/agnostic, your remarks are not relevant.

From the tenor of your posts I could well guess that post mortem is likely to be your forte!

 

[sangom]

Sangom sir,I am sorry you have such poor opinion of your own people. The original post had nothing to do with Tabras as you call them. You are the one dragging it to Caste.
Majority of the world does not know what a tabra means, The statistics was in general.
Just because of some Tabras you know have been mean to you, you dont have to malign the entire community.

Shri Prasad,

I am unable to understand how my posts sound as if tabras -at least some of them - had been "mean" towards me. Frankly, I did not have any such experience so far.

The OP was in respect of theists vs atheists, I agree. But who are "theists"? Those who believe in God. And since this forum is of tabras, most of whom may be believers in God, I had to bring up tabras, the hindu religion in which they believe and, necessarily, to the emphasis on daanam to braahmana. Since caste is a special characteristic of Hinduism, it will have to come in unless we discard caste concept altogether.

Things are not different in Xianity, I believe. Charity outside of their specific denomination is frowned upon and discouraged indirectly both by the Church and by the flock (society). About Muslims I do not know; they have only two major groups - Shias and Sunnis and I believe there also gifts outside their respective groups will not be tolerated. In fact the two groups often used to come to violent struggle during the Muharram in Lucknow, Hyderabad, etc., even during the British days.

I suspect that you may probably be viewing my posts with coloured glasses and hence your comments.

 

[renuka]

Since Dadhichi's case was not presented here by any atheist/agnostic, your remarks are not relevant.

From the tenor of your posts I could well guess that post mortem is likely to be your forte!

Well my dear none of the Theist also brought up the topic of caste here and my reply was in response to your question that Theist wont give up their bones for the benefit of the world.Too bad yaar..now I have no one to cut since you are not wiling to set an example for Jagat hita.I just kept back my scalpel and instruments.But if you change your mind let me know Ok.LOL

 

[Nara]

Since Dadhichi's case was not presented here by any atheist/agnostic, your remarks are not relevant.

From the tenor of your posts I could well guess that post mortem is likely to be your forte!

Dear Sangom sir, with profound and sincere apology, please allow me to present a spoof on you.

==== Spoof mode on ======
Hey Sangs, dude, don't you know, like the California preacher predicting end of the world, the theists, after reviving this thread from cold storage, have been eagerly waiting for some fire works to start, all the while proclaiming, me, no, not me, we didn't start it.

So, dear, come on, get it going, they want to have some fun with us invertebrates and then blame us for starting it.

It is soooo fun yaaar...
==== Spoof mode off ======

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Sangom sir, with profound and sincere apology, please allow me to present a spoof on you.

==== Spoof mode on ======
Hey Sangs, dude, don't you know, like the California preacher predicting end of the world, the theists, after reviving this thread from cold storage, have been eagerly waiting for some fire works to start, all the while proclaiming, me, no, not me, we didn't start it.

So, dear, come on, get it going, they want to have some fun with us invertebrates and then blame us for starting it.

It is soooo fun yaaar...
==== Spoof mode off ======

Cheers!

I must start patenting my mode of writing...looks as if my Ishstyle of writing is Contagious so I guess its spreading like "Wild Fire" ..well We didnt start the Fire yaar..

 

[C RAVI]

The OP was in respect of theists vs atheists, I agree. But who are "theists"? Those who believe in God. And since this forum is of tabras, most of whom may be believers in God, I had to bring up tabras, the hindu religion in which they believe and, necessarily, to the emphasis on daanam to braahmana. Since caste is a special characteristic of Hinduism, it will have to come in unless we discard caste concept altogether.

I suspect that you may probably be viewing my posts with coloured glasses and hence your comments.

Sir,

With all due respect and honor to you, let me ask you something and see what's your opinion. Since you are the most informative, intelligent, learned and much a senior person and have wisdom to know what is what, you may or may not agree but for sure would give your reply with all your honestly.


Sir, the question is,

Just because this website name/url is www.tamilbrahmins.com and majority of the members are brahmins and theists, does dragging in caste truly matters for any common topics under discussion?

If we do so, does it reflects a bad state of mind against a group, that is taking each and every chance to criticize a community OR is it the most rational way of a healthy discussion?


Your reply for the baove would be highly appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance.